One important thing that you forget to acknowledge when you say that our ancestors died at 45 is that this is the average age that they died at. This includes all of the infants that never made it to their first birthday and all of those that died of diseases that took fifty years off their lives that we now avoid entirely due to modern immunizations and antibiotics. If our ancestors made it thru or around these diseases, and died of "natural causes" then they lived as long as the average person does today (three score and ten).

well, think of all human existence as a 24 hour period. organized agricuture has existed only for the past 10,000 years, making up only the last five mintues of the entire day. our bodies evolved over the full prior 23 plus hours. we have not had time, evolutionarily speaking, to adapt to a diet as high in sugar/starch that you guys recommend. your body only needs a teaspoon of sugar, you guys are dumping buckets into your systems.

I'd like to hear about your experience participating in bicycling on a teaspoon of sugar a day.

Tell us all Mr. Freddy, how many hours do you ride your bike each week? How often do you ride more than 5 hours in a week? How often do you ride for more than 2 hours at a time at an average pace above 16mph? How often do you ride 2-3 days in a row for a total of 5+ hours? How long were your 5 longest rides in 2005? Do you ever do what most people would call "training"?

Are you aware that fast twitch muscle strongly prefers sugars for fuel and that slow twitch muscle is better (than fast twitch) at using fat for fuel?

Do you know how many carb calories it takes to fully replenish glycogen stores and how long that takes?

I'd like to hear about your experience participating in bicycling on a teaspoon of sugar a day.

Tell us all Mr. Freddy, how many hours do you ride your bike each week? How often do you ride more than 5 hours in a week? How often do you ride for more than 2 hours at a time at an average pace above 16mph? How often do you ride 2-3 days in a row for a total of 5+ hours? How long were your 5 longest rides in 2005? Do you ever do what most people would call "training"?

Are you aware that fast twitch muscle strongly prefers sugars for fuel and that slow twitch muscle is better (than fast twitch) at using fat for fuel?

Do you know how many carb calories it takes to fully replenish glycogen stores and how long that takes?

I knew it... this guy is not this stupid... he is just trying to be a troll.

Well it seems as if the low carb crowd and the balanced diet people are not going to agree. In my opinion both sides have a valid argument. Personally I think we can all agree that it is better to have less fat around the belly, or where ever you store it, than to be overweight. Also I think we can all agree that riding a bike is better than not riding a bike for your health.

I can surmise that the people here are concerned for their health and willing to do something about it and that is why they are voicing their concerns. Someone pointed out that we are all different so I think that works for some may not work for others.

Although I do not wholly agree with some of your views I was glad to hear them because I have learned allot from other peoples perspectives, and I thank you all for that. Even if you guys and gals would not eat my home-made organic bread I would still love to see ya on the road and ride with you, I think I share the love of cycling with the rest of you, that’s why I am here.

If you tried my bread you would really like it even if you disliked the carbs, it is amazing.

Thank you

If you tried my bread you would really like it even if you disliked the carbs, it is amazing.

Thank you

ok, now you are starting to torture me!!!! that sounds sooooo good!!!

ok, now you are starting to torture me!!!! that sounds sooooo good!!!

C'mon just one slice it wont hurt :)

Just joking, if your way is working for you and you're feeling good about it stick with it you'll end up healthier in the end no matter how you lose the fat, well exept for taking those wierd diet pills that make your metabolism run like a car in neutral with the pedal to the floor.

C'mon just one slice it wont hurt :)


yeah... :eek: just one slice.... :p one slice... :rolleyes:

I've done a raw foods diet, it's kind of been on hiatus for the winter season, but I've found it to be the most energizing. I don't really think a low carb diet is a good idea in the long run. Your body needs carbohydrates for energy, and I don't like the idea of starving myself of something that my body needs to keep me going.

I knew it... this guy is not this stupid... he is just trying to be a troll.

No Mike, I'm not trolling. This IS a bicyclists forum, not a forum for preaching about diets that are impractical for active cyclists. If you think your diet will work for an active cyclist then let's hear your answers for the questions I posed for Mr. Freddy.

I'm a bit disappointed the word "glucuneogensis" hasn't been mentioned.

I'm a bit disappointed the word "glucuneogensis" hasn't been mentioned.
So does that word basically mean that you get your energy through metabolized protein rather from carbohydrates?

I'd like to hear about your experience participating in bicycling on a teaspoon of sugar a day.

Tell us all Mr. Freddy, how many hours do you ride your bike each week? How often do you ride more than 5 hours in a week? How often do you ride for more than 2 hours at a time at an average pace above 16mph? How often do you ride 2-3 days in a row for a total of 5+ hours? How long were your 5 longest rides in 2005? Do you ever do what most people would call "training"?

Are you aware that fast twitch muscle strongly prefers sugars for fuel and that slow twitch muscle is better (than fast twitch) at using fat for fuel?

Do you know how many carb calories it takes to fully replenish glycogen stores and how long that takes?

Yes I'm in training and on a high fat, moderate protein and low carb diet. Last week I rode 165 km in about 7 hours total. It's not a lot realy, I intend to do more and I did it on beater of a bike. The racer is being built now.

To start with I DON'T count carbs or anything else so no answer there. So far I've rider for about 2 hours with NO food with me and I haven't bonked or come close to it. I recover with sour, raw milk and cream and other high fat delicacy's such as chicken liver pate and I feel great. I'm developing muscles quite quickly at the moment and packing OFF the weight so so far so good. I might try adding a little more carbs as my work rate goes up but it won't need to be much.

You know I had been convinced that I needed carbs to keep cycling hard but on a few occasions that I've tried the sugary drinks it just didn't work for me. I was more likely to bonk WITH the carbs than without them.

Regards, Anthony

I'm a bit disappointed the word "glucuneogensis" hasn't been mentioned.


Sure it has, A page or 2 ago

No Mike, I'm not trolling. This IS a bicyclists forum, not a forum for preaching about diets that are impractical for active cyclists. If you think your diet will work for an active cyclist then let's hear your answers for the questions I posed for Mr. Freddy.

yes mr g.... i know what the forum is about... i know you have it all figured out being that you have now been a member for a few days.... I have taken part in this forum for about a year and a half.

i will not entertain your detailed questions... my answer to them all is yes i have, and yes i do, and probably more than you. I have never experienced a "bonk" because I am past the first 2 weeks of my diet where something like that could occur. My body has adjusted to the change and my energy level is through the ruff. Oh... one more thing i should ad to your questions is I never average below 18mph.. you asked about 16. Even when i did the ms150 last year 100 miles on the first day and 75 on the second, I still averaged just under 19mph. At that time I was on a less strict low carb diet.

When did I ever say that low carbing was the most efficient form of fuel?? I am not trying to be the most efficient bicyclist at this moment! I am trying to drop 83 pounds!!!!! I feel that low carbing is the way to go to loose weight!

Look at it this way.... I have managed to store up 83 gallons of old gas in my gas tank. all that extra weight is really slowing me down. I used up the fresh gas on purpose so I would specificly begin to burn all that old gas. Sure, I won't be able to win the race of my life while trying to burn it off, but once it is gone I can use whatever fresh gas I want!!! (keep in mind, while buring off this old gas, I am still adding some fresh gas every day along the way... just not huge amounts of it)

My 7 year old son understands this story I just made up... unfortunately that does not mean that you will...

I'm a bit disappointed the word "glucuneogensis" hasn't been mentioned.

Yes it has, entry #70

yes mr g.... i know what the forum is about... i know you have it all figured out being that you have now been a member for a few days.... I have taken part in this forum for about a year and a half.

i will not entertain your detailed questions... my answer to them all is yes i have, and yes i do, and probably more than you. I have never experienced a "bonk" because I am past the first 2 weeks of my diet where something like that could occur. My body has adjusted to the change and my energy level is through the ruff. Oh... one more thing i should ad to your questions is I never average below 18mph.. you asked about 16. Even when i did the ms150 last year 100 miles on the first day and 75 on the second, I still averaged just under 19mph. At that time I was on a less strict low carb diet.

When did I ever say that low carbing was the most efficient form of fuel?? I am not trying to be the most efficient bicyclist at this moment! I am trying to drop 83 pounds!!!!! I feel that low carbing is the way to go to loose weight!

Look at it this way.... I have managed to store up 83 gallons of old gas in my gas tank. all that extra weight is really slowing me down. I used up the fresh gas on purpose so I would specificly begin to burn all that old gas. Sure, I won't be able to win the race of my life while trying to burn it off, but once it is gone I can use whatever fresh gas I want!!! (keep in mind, while buring off this old gas, I am still adding some fresh gas every day along the way... just not huge amounts of it)

My 7 year old son understands this story I just made up... unfortunately that does not mean that you will...

Mike - The one important point that you leave out of your wonderful story is that when you were stockpiling the 83 gallons of gas, you were adding Sta-bil gas stabilizer so that it would work nearly as well when you finally decided to use it as if you had just bought it "fresh".

Yes it has, entry #70 ah well, it didn't come up on the search function, maybe because it's underlined

I'll take a slice of that bread, with a lotta butter! just one slice tho...

as to my cycling regimen, I live in NYC, and it's kinda chilly right now for outdoor riding - I know some people like it, but not me... anway, I exercise at least one hour per day, often 90 minutes, doing a mix of indoor cycling, stairmastering, elliptical whatchmalcaiting, swimming, six days a week.. I also do a little bit of weight lifting too.... I'm just getting started so dont ask me about my performance times.... I dont know and I dont care.

anyway, my particular experience is irrelevant to the topic at hand. someone demanded some studies, so, you asked for it, you got it. this is just a small sprinkling of what I found:


http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0999.htm

http://www.springerlink.com/(5qh5yk55mzjfzcjwl2u1h1ji)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,3,17;journal,28,253;linkingpublicationresults,1:400513,1

http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-199803000-00018.htm;jsessionid=DPzvusUzXtvrU1g75AVMy11eAn2n239u1A5hhMvoW1YcRQTHnctu!-786779307!-949856145!9001!-1

http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-200201000-00014.htm;jsessionid=DP0nF2ymsnymeu25z6wBvwUX2vcAwqsXxSUs2YySCRbE1DO4VNvw!-786779307!-949856145!9001!-1


http://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/abstract/sportsmed/doi/10.1055/s-1999-8838;jsessionid=A6AF861647743A974E66E309A57BB8F2.jvm2


http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-199701000-00004.htm;jsessionid=DP01QUZ12SGjiIdkEwolgvf3VpUCXR2jh37gJoBxNxZdmmXWOWz1!-786779307!-949856145!9001!-1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11402254&dopt=Citation

Low carbohydrate eating is revolutionary. It actually was found in the 1800s by a william banting; he also under went much criticism even after much success and that is why only 150 years later was it reintroduced. Now there are disease caused by protein and fat deficiencies, but I challenge you to bring on one disease that is caused soley by a carbohydrate deficiency...can't name one? thats because there aren't any! I have never felt better and have had more energy than now. By doing a controlled carb program I have reduced my body fat from 35% to 18% and I have lost a lot of weight. Not only that but my quality of life has drastically improved. After years of falling into the low fat way of eating I have reversed the brain washing I under went as a youth and I have come out an educated, well fit young woman. Thank you for your time, and I only registered so I could make this point, as you will not see me around here.

Years ago, the Ward Nicholson articles on Beyond Veg were the first I ever read about paleo eating, and really made an impression on me. If only I had any discipline. :p

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/paleodiet/index.shtml
http://www.beyondveg.com/

I read about paleo and I try to incorporate whole natural foods whenever possible. I just love cheese way to much to give it up

And we have evolved since the time of the caveman.


actually, no, we haven't... not in the past 10k years since organized agriculture has existed.

probably why your body had a lot of ways to keep your blood sugar up, but only one hormone, insulin, to keep it down. excess sugar intake wasn't an issue, not until 10k years ago. and it has gotten much worse in the past 100 years since we found so many ways to eat refined carbs.

Well if you're going tell us to eat like our ancestors to be healthy like them then you have to acknowledge the simple fact that they died at a relatively young age while eating the diet you espouse. Personally, I think the idea of trying to eat like our ancestors is a silly distraction. We have access to lots of good food that our ancestors never had or couldn't get frequently. Do you eat bananas? Did they? How about fresh orange juice no matter what part of the country you live in? 5 different kinds of fresh seafood at the market every day of the year...

You can in fact eat better than your ancestors, if you choose to do that.

Besides, my comments were mostly directed towards a good diet for athletes. That is the focus of this forum, right?


you are missing the point. that body of yours is the product of thousands of years of evolution, evolution that designed your body in response to certain types of food, i.e. lots of fat and protein, very little carbs. in fact, that big brain of yours only came along after pre-humans started eating energy dense meat.

regarding bananas, I'm sure they ate the prehistoric version of bananas, when and if they could find them. but they were far less sugary than our modern bananas.

and your stance on the early death issue is just too silly to even respond to further...

I hate to use it but, according to my reading, LA uses i believe between 60-65 percent carbs in his diet, depending on what part of his four diet seasons he is in.

point being, while i'm sure some study shows that low carb/high fat can work, the mastah doesn't necessarilly use that diet and he seems to be doing just fine. I can't seem to cite any high fat low carb cyclist dropping him anytime recently but, hey, i'm new here.

I hate to use it but, according to my reading, LA uses i believe between 60-65 percent carbs in his diet, depending on what part of his four diet seasons he is in.

point being, while i'm sure some study shows that low carb/high fat can work, the mastah doesn't necessarilly use that diet and he seems to be doing just fine. I can't seem to cite any high fat low carb cyclist dropping him anytime recently but, hey, i'm new here.


well, that is a study of one subject, so the conclusions we can draw are exactly none. although I suspect Lance could have done even better if he had altered his nutritional strategy to a low carb diet while training and his usual high carb diet while racing. that is what the studies tell us.

also, the high carb diet idea is so deeply entrenched in the athletic community (just look at the vitriol in this thread alone), I'd be amazed to find a top level cyclist willing to try anything else.

Mrfreddy, as one my old law profs used to say to me, i hate any sentence that begins with the phrase: i bet; or i suspect. problem low carb has is that no cyclist has yet to prove it as a competitive theory (i.e., win a major using it). not to say it isn't true but, it doesn't have the results to back it, for whatever reason.

Mrfreddy, as one my old law profs used to say to me, i hate any sentence that begins with the phrase: i bet; or i suspect. problem low carb has is that no cyclist has yet to prove it as a competitive theory (i.e., win a major using it). not to say it isn't true but, it doesn't have the results to back it, for whatever reason.

well the lab results are in and they support the high fat approach.

Yeah right, the most energy fat-metabolism is going to provide is about 900-1000 calories per day. How are you going to get the remaining 5000 calories/day to do a day in the TDF? How are you gonna replenish the 2000-2500 calories of glycogen that's stored in the muscles?

How many miles do you ride a day? How fast do you do them? The empirical evidence is out there with tens of thousands of people bonking from insufficient carb-intake. Do three consecutive days of 75-miles daily riding and try to finish the 3rd day without having eaten substantial amounts of carbs the previous days. I bet you would bonk on the 2nd day even. The evidence is also out there with muscle-catabolism from low-carb intakes in conjunction with HIT. Low-carb is a lazy couch-potatoe's way of losing some weight because their diet was so unhealthy to begin with. But you cannot combine that with an athletic training program that requires 3000-5000 calories to be burned off every day. People who try do to so end up with constant fatigue and lethargy. And while they may lose weight, they lose a tonne of muscle as well and their body-fat % doesn't change by much. You end up with a 130-lb twig with a double-chin and less strength and conditioning than before due to all the muscle-loss. :(

BTW - Cite the studies.

Yeah right, the most energy fat-metabolism is going to provide is about 900-1000 calories per day. How are you going to get the remaining 5000 calories/day to do a day in the TDF? How are you gonna replenish the 2000-2500 calories of glycogen that's stored in the muscles?

How many miles do you ride a day? How fast do you do them? The empirical evidence is out there with tens of thousands of people bonking from insufficient carb-intake. Do three consecutive days of 75-miles daily riding and try to finish the 3rd day without having eaten substantial amounts of carbs the previous days. I bet you would bonk on the 2nd day even. The evidence is also out there with muscle-catabolism from low-carb intakes in conjunction with HIT. Low-carb is a lazy couch-potatoe's way of losing some weight because their diet was so unhealthy to begin with. But you cannot combine that with an athletic training program that requires 3000-5000 calories to be burned off every day. People who try do to so end up with constant fatigue and lethargy. And while they may lose weight, they lose a tonne of muscle as well and their body-fat % doesn't change by much. You end up with a 130-lb twig with a double-chin and less strength and conditioning than before due to all the muscle-loss. :(

BTW - Cite the studies.


1) when you're using fat as your fuel, it's impossible to bonk, since your fat supply is so large... where did you get that 900 to 1000 per day number? It is actually glucose that is the far more limited fuel supply, you can only store enough to last a few hours. btw, if you train on a high fat diet, you'll make that limited glucose last longer. see the studies I cited above.

2) your claims about the effect of low carbing are based on what? your opinions? cite some studies that support your notion that low carbing and a high level of exercise results in loss of muscle tone (wrong!), body fat % staying the same (wrong!) and contant fatigue and lethargy (guess what? wrong again!)

3) Please google "Stu Middleman" he is an ultra marathoner who eats high fat/low carb, and by the way, runs 50 - 100 miles DAILY, day after day after day. Ask him about muscle tone and lethargy and body fat %.

While you're at it, google "Stuart Trager" a doctor, Atkins spokesman, and triathlete with respectable times for a guy his age.

4) I cited just a few studies I found, somewhere back in this thread.

[QUOTE]anyway, my particular experience is irrelevant to the topic at hand. someone demanded some studies, so, you asked for it, you got it. this is just a small sprinkling of what I found:


http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0999.htm

I only looked at the first study because it supports the opinion of those who suggest some carbs during exercise (everyone in the tests did this) and power output was only improved very slightly with the high fat group at the very end of a 100K bike ride. The other tests showed no difference or an advantage for the high carb diet.

The test did not measure various intensity ranges either.

The other problem is the high carb diet used in the study isn't normally recommended for athletes-it was 70% carbs and only 15% protein. So this diet should not have been considered.

So Mr. Freddy, got any studies that actually support your point of view instead of recommending against it (assuming that your main interest is not in a 2% improvement in power over the final 10K of a 100K ride.)?

I also looked at the last study you cited.

The study compared hi fat and low fat diets prior to _carb loading_ for three days before the tests. IOW, ALL of the test subjects did carb loading for three days before the test, AND they ingested substantial carbs DURING the tests.

So, do either of these scenarios look like the way you fuel up before and during rides?

Actually Mr Freddy, you and guys like Mike are very common. Very little experience actually cycling but this doesn't stop you from telling experienced cyclists how wrong they are. Guys like you have been around for most of the 25+ years I've been racing. My only problem with this is that you pass along bad information to unsuspecting people who may not bother to ask you to back up your silly claims or understand what the studies actually show, or don't show.

Be sure to let us know how your back to back to back days of actual training go for you on that diet of a teaspoon of sugar a day. Don't forget to call Lance and tell him that you think that in spite of all the expert advice and testing he receives, with millions of dollars at stake, you, a guy who's hardly ridden a bike, can tell him where he went wrong.

Enjoy your cycling, but try to learn from people who have far more experience than you with the topic.

I only looked at the first study because it supports the opinion of those who suggest some carbs during exercise (everyone in the tests did this) and power output was only improved very slightly with the high fat group at the very end of a 100K bike ride. The other tests showed no difference or an advantage for the high carb diet.

The test did not measure various intensity ranges either.

The other problem is the high carb diet used in the study isn't normally recommended for athletes-it was 70% carbs and only 15% protein. So this diet should not have been considered.

So Mr. Freddy, got any studies that actually support your point of view instead of recommending against it (assuming that your main interest is not in a 2% improvement in power over the final 10K of a 100K ride.)?

I also looked at the last study you cited.

The study compared hi fat and low fat diets prior to _carb loading_ for three days before the tests. IOW, ALL of the test subjects did carb loading for three days before the test, AND they ingested substantial carbs DURING the tests.

So, do either of these scenarios look like the way you fuel up before and during rides?

Actually Mr Freddy, you and guys like Mike are very common. Very little experience actually cycling but this doesn't stop you from telling experienced cyclists how wrong they are. Guys like you have been around for most of the 25+ years I've been racing. My only problem with this is that you pass along bad information to unsuspecting people who may not bother to ask you to back up your silly claims or understand what the studies actually show, or don't show.

Be sure to let us know how your back to back to back days of actual training go for you on that diet of a teaspoon of sugar a day. Don't forget to call Lance and tell him that you think that in spite of all the expert advice and testing he receives, with millions of dollars at stake, you, a guy who's hardly ridden a bike, can tell him where he went wrong.

Enjoy your cycling, but try to learn from people who have far more experience than you with the topic.

TROLL.

I am in favor of low carb eating to the MAX!

You folks talking AGAINST Low Carb MAY
not even know what it means.

Basicly you can eat all the meat (I eat lean meat only)
and green veggies you can handle.

No Bread. No Potatoes. No Grains or rice. No sugar.

I have the additional 'problem' of considering myself
a compulsive eater. I used to eat ice cream and pies
and cakes and cookies, candy, chocolate and all sorts
of fried foods, but I can't handle it. I now CHOOSE to
not eat that crap for health purposes. And my diet
choices are my business, and I could care what the FDA
has to say about a food pyramid. The FDA is corrupted
by CORPORATE America's PAYOLA and promulgate their
propaganda. Think about it! If you ate 5 servings of Fruits
and vegetables a day, plus dairy, plus meat plus grains or
legumes and drank whole milk, plus using OILS, you'd be fat
as a pig!

The corporate crowd is no friend of mnie. I am betting my
life on LOW CARB. My 'numbers' for all health indicators
are EXCELLENT and I have never felt fitter in my life.

Actual proof speaks volumes about life styles, and mine is
currently in great shape.

I entered the fray here at the resquest of a fellow who also posts
on the LOW CARBER Forum on the Atkin's site. I don't really care
if you folks eat twinkies on a regular basis, it is ok with me.
I heard once that the human body can get used to surviving
on any kind of food, so many different diets are probably ok.

I am betting on HIGH PROTEIN / LOW FAT (meats)
WITH restrictions on eating superfulous carbs like
sugar filled crap, grain products, potatoes, and too much fruit.

I have maintained an 80 lb weightloss for about 6 yrs
on LOW CARB and am betting my life and
longevity on it.

I am 55 yrs. old, have 3 - 4 inch titanium pins in my
right hip but ride a bicycle at about 14 mph average
up and down hills to the tune of about 75-130 miles
per week depending on the weather.

That is not to brag, because I know many people on
this forum ride Century's routinely in one day, but
my point is that I am a hell of a lot better off on the
LOW CARB Way of Life than being the fat assed person
I used to be, sucking up all the Fast Food, sweets and
bullsh*t that corporate america advertises on TV.

But most importanly, and bottom line
relevant to this forum - - - LET's all RIDE! (Ride to Live)

Ned Goudy
240-160-160 - 5'6"

Easy Racer EZ1-SC
http://www.easyracers.com/ez_1_sc.htm

Lightning Thunderbolt http://www.lightningbikes.com/thunderbolt.htm

welcome ned! you are the man!

whoa neddy, dont you know that what your doing is impossible? at least according to the anti-low carb crowd on this forum (including a "Certified Nutritionist, who formerly educated herself on these matters!"), so you better stop it! you're gonna lose muscle tone and turn yerself into an amonia factory and you wont lose weight and even if you somehow do lose wt. you wont be able to maintain you wt. loss and you wont be able to ride hard for long periods of time and you wont recover properly and you'll bonk like crazy!!!


so knock it off, would ya? you are debunking some deeply treasued dogmas here!

TROLL.

I doubt that, champ.

Ahh the South Beach diet has put in an appearance.

Here's what the WAPF has to say about it, http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/southbeachdiet.html

Simplisticaly its a "politically correct" invention thats provides less nutrients than a high carb/low fat diet.

Regards, Anthony

my point is that I am a hell of a lot better off on the
LOW CARB Way of Life than being the fat assed person
I used to be, sucking up all the Fast Food, sweets and
bullsh*t that corporate america advertises on TV.

So you've lost weight, kept it off, and ride your bike regularly. Very good. The low-carb approach is better than eating lots of trash. Good. Is there no middle ground for you like 40-60% carbs of good quality instead of only 10-20% carbs of good quality? With more appropriate fuel you could likely be able to ride at an average of 16+mph instead of only 14mph because of improved recovery between rides and more effective fuel during your rides-both of which would lead to improved performances. For a 55yo who's not overweight this is a very reasonable expectation.

I only looked at the first study because it supports the opinion of those who suggest some carbs during exercise (everyone in the tests did this) and power output was only improved very slightly with the high fat group at the very end of a 100K bike ride. The other tests showed no difference or an advantage for the high carb diet.

The test did not measure various intensity ranges either.

The other problem is the high carb diet used in the study isn't normally recommended for athletes-it was 70% carbs and only 15% protein. So this diet should not have been considered.

So Mr. Freddy, got any studies that actually support your point of view instead of recommending against it (assuming that your main interest is not in a 2% improvement in power over the final 10K of a 100K ride.)?

I also looked at the last study you cited.

The study compared hi fat and low fat diets prior to _carb loading_ for three days before the tests. IOW, ALL of the test subjects did carb loading for three days before the test, AND they ingested substantial carbs DURING the tests.

So, do either of these scenarios look like the way you fuel up before and during rides?

Actually Mr Freddy, you and guys like Mike are very common. Very little experience actually cycling but this doesn't stop you from telling experienced cyclists how wrong they are. Guys like you have been around for most of the 25+ years I've been racing. My only problem with this is that you pass along bad information to unsuspecting people who may not bother to ask you to back up your silly claims or understand what the studies actually show, or don't show.

Be sure to let us know how your back to back to back days of actual training go for you on that diet of a teaspoon of sugar a day. Don't forget to call Lance and tell him that you think that in spite of all the expert advice and testing he receives, with millions of dollars at stake, you, a guy who's hardly ridden a bike, can tell him where he went wrong.

Enjoy your cycling, but try to learn from people who have far more experience than you with the topic.


you know, I am really beginning to not like the tone you take with me, young man!

anyway, the way I read the studies, they tell you:

1) if you train on a low carb diet, your body adjusts and improves its abiltity to use fat as fuel, and spares carbs, both very good things.

2) yes, there is a small advantage in peformance in highly anarobic effort levels if you poison yourself with carbs. to me, its not worth it, but hey, I dont compete.

so the studies do support my point, at least as far as I intened it. performance is not degraded by a low carb diet, except, as I said, at the highest levels of effort.

and it's an ocean of ninny's like you that are providing people with bad information, armed as you are with dogma and bad attitude! guess that carb bonking you experience so regularly makes you kinda cranky, aye?

So you've lost weight, kept it off, and ride your bike regularly. Very good. The low-carb approach is better than eating lots of trash. Good. Is there no middle ground for you like 40-60% carbs of good quality instead of only 10-20% carbs of good quality? With more appropriate fuel you could likely be able to ride at an average of 16+mph instead of only 14mph because of improved recovery between rides and more effective fuel during your rides-both of which would lead to improved performances. For a 55yo who's not overweight this is a very reasonable expectation.


the trouble with eating that many carbs, whether they are from high quality sources or from ding dongs, is what they do to your blood sugar levels, and all of the bad things associated with that. of course, loads of exercise mitigates a lot of that problem, but why put yourself into that position in the first place?

the trouble with eating that many carbs, whether they are from high quality sources or from ding dongs, is what they do to your blood sugar levels, and all of the bad things associated with that. of course, loads of exercise mitigates a lot of that problem, but why put yourself into that position in the first place?

It's not that difficult, if you're paying some attention to it, to keep blood sugar levels relatively constant. This can be done by eating the more complex versions of carbs, eating simpler carbs in smaller amounts and/or along with other foods that slow down the digestion of these carbs so they don't result in large blood sugar swings. The suggestion to eat five small meals and (maybe some small snacks too) per day tends to help alot.

Also, it's actually a very good thing to have a sudden rise in blood sugar right after exercise because (the resulting surge of) insulin is very effective at helping cells absorb sugars and proteins so the recovery process can get off to a good start. At the extreme, bodybuilders (and some other "athletes") use synthetic forms of insulin to help drive more proteins into their muscles so they can grow. This is illegal in Olympic sports, but effective.

As for your question about "why put yourself in that position anyway?"... Well, if you're going to sit around all day and night you don't really need many carbs because during that type of activity your slow twitch muscle fibers can handle that load just fine and the relatively low amounts of energy you'll need can come mainly from fats being used with lots of oxygen to produce your energy/fuel.

If you're going to do some exercise that calls upon your fast twitch fibers as well as slow twitch then you're going to need some glycogen/glucose for fuel to perform even reasonably well. Also, many people suggest a bit of medium to high intensity exercise both as as means for burning calories but also because studies show that medium to high intensity exercise is best for raisng a person's "base metabolic rate" (BMR).

The reason you want a relatively high BMR is because you'll burn more calories throughout the day (and probably also at night) even when you're just sitting around. The amount of fat calories burned with a higher BMR is fairly significant-never mind that with the higher BMR you tend to feel better-more energetic. Or you can just drink lots of caffeine but your heart may not like that forever.

Gym "trainers" like to tell you that increasing muscle mass will raise BMR but in reality it's a very small amount of increase. They mainly want you to keep coming back to the gym so you feel like you're getting your money's worth, and so you can pay them to be your trainer. :-) Riding the bike with some occasional intensity will increase the BMR more than a few more pounds of muscle.

If you're exercising you want to improve, but if you're using muscle proteins for fuel (because you're not supplying enough carbs/glycogen/glucose) you won't perform as well during exercise and your muscles will have a hard time getting enough protein to repair and rebuild themselves after the exercise. I forget the number of days, but IIRC your muscle cells get comepletely replaced approximately every 90 days, so you'd better be providing them with enough good protein to help with that.

As someone else already mentioned, some diets lead people to lose weight, and some of that comes from lost muscle. Best to measure the changes in bodyfat rather than just lost weight. Did you know it takes 3 grams of water to store 1 gram of carbs? This also means that for every gram of carb (glycogen) you remove from your body you also remove 3 grams of water. Deplete your carb stores(glycogen) by switching to a low carb diet with exercise and you could be losing 4, 5, 6, or more pounds immediately just from that, and that is not good.

I didn't read all this in some book hyping hopes and dreams or trying to sell me something. You can find it all by doing your own searches at places like PUBMED online and reviewing the scientific studies there.

you know, I am really beginning to not like the tone you take with me, young man!

anyway, the way I read the studies, they tell you:

1) if you train on a low carb diet, your body adjusts and improves its abiltity to use fat as fuel, and spares carbs, both very good things.

The carbs are spared for efforts that can use them. Fats can not be used for some efforts, and not very well for others.


2) yes, there is a small advantage in peformance in highly anarobic effort levels if you poison yourself with carbs. to me, its not worth it, but hey, I dont compete.

Uh, no. Carbs will be wanted far below the level of an anaerobic effort regardless of whether you're a complete novice or the best pro racer in the world. Right around the level of 1.5mmo/l of blood lactate is where glycogen and glucose begin to become needed to a relatively significant degree. As the intensity rises to around 3mmol/l of blood lactate the need for glucose and glycogen are relatively high. The level most associated with "anaerobic" is near 4mmol/l of blood lactate. Novices would not be able to ride at even 5mmo/l for more than a minute or so. As you can see, you have a fairly high demand for glycogen and glucose at levels well below "anaerobic".


so the studies do support my point, at least as far as I intened it. performance is not degraded by a low carb diet, except, as I said, at the highest levels of effort.

See above, and the studies did show a degradation of performance in many of the exercise sessions. And you're omitting the fact that both of the studies that you mentioned and that I could look at utilized very high amounts of carbs either before the test or during the test. This is because the researchers know that carbs are a necessary fuel and required in reasonable amounts just to do the testing. The one study that looked at a low carb diet had the subjects _carbo loading for three days_ before the test. Why do you think that is? It was so their glycogen stores could be filled sufficiently to perform the test.


and it's an ocean of ninny's like you that are providing people with bad information, armed as you are with dogma and bad attitude! guess that carb bonking you experience so regularly makes you kinda cranky, aye?

What I am "providing" is backed up by years and years of scientific studies that you can read for yourself at PUBMED. As for "carb bonking" that I experience so regularly you're wrong about that too. I train at a very high level approximately 450-480 hours per year. I bonked once about two years ago, and two or three other times in the ten to twelve years before that. The most recent was during a 4 hour ride that included thousands of feet of climbing and some high intensity intervals. The time before that was two hours into a cross-country ski race. It's very difficult to get enough calories to support an effort that takes (me) more than 2400 calories to do, especially during a xc ski race where it's pretty hard to eat or drink much of anything. And no, fat alone is not a good fuel source when the average HR during the 135-minute event is near 83-85% of MHR.

I'm pretty disappointed in how hostile this thread has gotten.

Lighten up, folks.

Ok, let's do the ultimate test of these different philosophies. Put everyone into a race and the proof-of-concept will be crossing the finish-line first! :)

well Chris Carmichael has commented many times that low carb diets are not suitable for cyclists..

I personally need to have carbs for cycling.. I have also found that I do not lose a lot of weight just by riding. Cross Training is what helps me lose weight. For some reason playing racquetball drops the weight off me super fast. Like said many times in this thread everyone is different.. If you find a low carb diet works for you, go for it..

Ok, let's do the ultimate test of these different philosophies. Put everyone into a race and the proof-of-concept will be crossing the finish-line first! :)

Ahh come on. It wouldn't prove a thing and you KNOW it.

Something to think about is that the high carb diet is so pervasive in sport that it infact SELECTS for carbohydrate types because the protein types would have their performances hampered by too many carbs in their diets that their trainers and coaches have insisted that they needed. The result is that fat/protein types have been hindered, based not on scientific knowledge but on quasi-religious predjudices.

Regards, Anthony

Uh, no. Carbs will be wanted far below the level of an anaerobic effort regardless of whether you're a complete novice or the best pro racer in the world. Right around the level of 1.5mmo/l of blood lactate is where glycogen and glucose begin to become needed to a relatively significant degree. As the intensity rises to around 3mmol/l of blood lactate the need for glucose and glycogen are relatively high. The level most associated with "anaerobic" is near 4mmol/l of blood lactate. Novices would not be able to ride at even 5mmo/l for more than a minute or so. As you can see, you have a fairly high demand for glycogen and glucose at levels well below "anaerobic".

not if you've trained yourself on a high fat low carb diet.




See above, and the studies did show a degradation of performance in many of the exercise sessions. And you're omitting the fact that both of the studies that you mentioned and that I could look at utilized very high amounts of carbs either before the test or during the test. This is because the researchers know that carbs are a necessary fuel and required in reasonable amounts just to do the testing. The one study that looked at a low carb diet had the subjects _carbo loading for three days_ before the test. Why do you think that is? It was so their glycogen stores could be filled sufficiently to perform the test.



I'll have to go back and look at those studies, I just picked a few out of the mountain that google returned, but meanhwhile, pick apart this one: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2


What I am "providing" is backed up by years and years of scientific studies that you can read for yourself at PUBMED.

i am sure PUBMED contains a lot of flawed studies, just like all of the flawed studies that tell us that saturated fat is bad for you, all disproven by now. And at one time, anyone who dared to suggest that the world wasn't flat was subjected to ridicule.... just because this is what the cycling and athletic world have chosen to believe doesnt prove it is right or wrong.



As for "carb bonking" that I experience so regularly you're wrong about that too. I train at a very high level approximately 450-480 hours per year. I bonked once about two years ago, and two or three other times in the ten to twelve years before that. The most recent was during a 4 hour ride that included thousands of feet of climbing and some high intensity intervals. The time before that was two hours into a cross-country ski race.

um, that was a joke, it was late on Friday night, take it easy... although, I still contend that bonking isnt an issue when you low carb, you are running on fat, of which you have an unlimited supply.



It's very difficult to get enough calories to support an effort that takes (me) more than 2400 calories to do, especially during a xc ski race where it's pretty hard to eat or drink much of anything. And no, fat alone is not a good fuel source when the average HR during the 135-minute event is near 83-85% of MHR.

its not difficult when you've trained your body to rely on fat instead of the limted amount of poisonous sugar you can stuff into it. Google "Stu middleman" and take a look, he does ultra-marathons, running 50 - 100 miles day after day after day, and guess what? he low carbs...

It's not that difficult, if you're paying some attention to it, to keep blood sugar levels relatively constant. This can be done by eating the more complex versions of carbs, eating simpler carbs in smaller amounts and/or along with other foods that slow down the digestion of these carbs so they don't result in large blood sugar swings. The suggestion to eat five small meals and (maybe some small snacks too) per day tends to help alot.

it makes a hell of a lot more sense to avoid starchy foods and of course sugar all together. your body wasnt designed to handle it, evolutionarily speaking...



Also, it's actually a very good thing to have a sudden rise in blood sugar right after exercise because (the resulting surge of) insulin is very effective at helping cells absorb sugars and proteins so the recovery process can get off to a good start. At the extreme, bodybuilders (and some other "athletes") use synthetic forms of insulin to help drive more proteins into their muscles so they can grow. This is illegal in Olympic sports, but effective.


but if you're Mike and you want to lose wt. a surge of insulin the last thing you need....



As for your question about "why put yourself in that position anyway?"... Well, if you're going to sit around all day and night you don't really need many carbs because during that type of activity your slow twitch muscle fibers can handle that load just fine and the relatively low amounts of energy you'll need can come mainly from fats being used with lots of oxygen to produce your energy/fuel.

If you're going to do some exercise that calls upon your fast twitch fibers as well as slow twitch then you're going to need some glycogen/glucose for fuel to perform even reasonably well. Also, many people suggest a bit of medium to high intensity exercise both as as means for burning calories but also because studies show that medium to high intensity exercise is best for raisng a person's "base metabolic rate" (BMR).

The reason you want a relatively high BMR is because you'll burn more calories throughout the day (and probably also at night) even when you're just sitting around. The amount of fat calories burned with a higher BMR is fairly significant-never mind that with the higher BMR you tend to feel better-more energetic. Or you can just drink lots of caffeine but your heart may not like that forever.

Gym "trainers" like to tell you that increasing muscle mass will raise BMR but in reality it's a very small amount of increase. They mainly want you to keep coming back to the gym so you feel like you're getting your money's worth, and so you can pay them to be your trainer. :-) Riding the bike with some occasional intensity will increase the BMR more than a few more pounds of muscle.

If you're exercising you want to improve, but if you're using muscle proteins for fuel (because you're not supplying enough carbs/glycogen/glucose) you won't perform as well during exercise and your muscles will have a hard time getting enough protein to repair and rebuild themselves after the exercise. I forget the number of days, but IIRC your muscle cells get comepletely replaced approximately every 90 days, so you'd better be providing them with enough good protein to help with that.


well I maintain that you can raise your BMR sufficiently without loading yourself with carbs. you train on a high fat diet, your body responds by getting better and better at supplying the fat to your muscles... you are not burning muscle proteins, you're burning fat. the processes that supply fat to your muscles improve with training.




As someone else already mentioned, some diets lead people to lose weight, and some of that comes from lost muscle. Best to measure the changes in bodyfat rather than just lost weight. Did you know it takes 3 grams of water to store 1 gram of carbs? This also means that for every gram of carb (glycogen) you remove from your body you also remove 3 grams of water. Deplete your carb stores(glycogen) by switching to a low carb diet with exercise and you could be losing 4, 5, 6, or more pounds immediately just from that, and that is not good.



and I maintain that carrying around all the unneed water wt. is not a good thing. and of course you can burn fat on a low carb diet, you just need to more calories than you ingest. take a look at the guy who maintains the site "theomnivore.com" he low carbs, cycles, and maintains a sub 10 per cent body fat level.

I didn't read all this in some book hyping hopes and dreams or trying to sell me something. You can find it all by doing your own searches at places like PUBMED online and reviewing the scientific studies there.

you can also find the opposite arguments all over the place, if you look, with an open mind. start by googling "Stu Middleman" and "stuart trager'....

DannoXYZ (or anyone else for that matter) I would agree with you that using body fat as your primary energy source is not a very good idea during vigorous exercise (you're going to use at least 30% of your total no matter how many carbs you consume during the workout). I am still waiting for the studies that show that you can only process about 900 - 1000 calories worth of body fat in a 24-hour period. All that I can find are still ongoing.

I eat no meat, whole grains, lots of fruits and vegetables, moderate fat intake, no eggs, no milk and I've lost weight, feel better and ride hard.

Meat eating is not necesary to be strong. In fact, I think it is unhealthy and a waste of the earth's resources to grow meat. So many more people could be fed on a plant based diet.

When I ate meat, I had more allergy (sinus) problems, my digestion was not good and I was not as healthy as I am now. I worry about the long-term effects of a high-protien diet on the individual and on the planet.

The whole notion that a heavy meat type diet is more evolutionarily sound is not science but conjecture. Just because hunter gatherer groups go to pot when they absorb all of the practices of the encroaching 'modern' society does not warrant an abondonment of whole foods, minimally processed, clean and fresh to our tables.

Meat eating doesn't have to be the part of any person's life. You will lose weight, feel healthier, have a clearer mind, have a clearer conscience and do your part for the betterment of the earth and show a kindness to all living animals.

'Low Carb' is a glutton's way out of a problem created by a lack of control in the first place. I would say that the hungry of the world should rise up in anger and kick us down for our wastefulness and greed to eat meat!

mr. freddy, you continue to make many statements not supported by any studies you can provide even though I've asked for them repeatedly. Your latest "study is really just an article written by some guy, who has mnaged to come up with just one study that supports his/your point of view and that study was 20 years ago and full of flaws that even I can see.

Why don't you tell us why your latest diet (I'm sure there have been others that excited you before you actually spent 6 months on them) would work better than simply eliminating junk foods. I'd also like to hear from you just how long you've been on your low carb diet, how much weight you've lost since you started it, and what your previous or current bodyfat percentage is. Afterall, you have provided more evidence against your opinions so all we have to go on is your personal testimonial. So let's learn something more about your personal results.