I have an online acquaintance, a woman in her 30s with four children who was recently diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma. It's very aggressive, and her chances of survival are kind of fuzzy. She's an example of why I'd like to be as proactive as possible with my life and my health.

http://jncicancerspectrum.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/jnci;91/20/1751

sorry about your friend,

your study is pretty technical and hard to read, and I dont have time right now to parse thru it, but it seems to be one of those typical distortions where the studiers contrive to find what they're looking for... they associate meat consumption with non-Hodgkins lymphoma, but did they control for carbohydrate consumption? I'll be the first to admit that a high fat diet in combo with a high carb diet is dangerous.

anyway, it's all very confusing, one study suggests this, another suggests that, the interest groups line up to attack the studies they dont like, and fund studies to get the results they want, etc. etc....

which is why I always fall back on the paleo diet. that is the big trump card, the long term study to end all long term studies. it's pretty hard to argue with millions of years of evolution (tho, of course, some still do, hahaa).
there's also the fact that a huge rise in heart disease, diabetes, cancer, are all closely associated with the rise in refined carbs and sugar consumption in our diet.
and the fact that EVERY primtive group found living on very high fat low carb diets are found to have excellent health, with virtually no problems with heard disease, cancer, diabetes. if sat. fat was really the problem this could not be the case.

Does anyone besides me see that 15 pages of posts siding one side or the other might suggest that a balanced diet, with healthy carbs, healthy fats, and healthy protein might okay? That BOTH camps might have valid points? Does anyone not support the basic calories in/calories out theory?
Again, throughout the world, the majority of the population is NOT on a diet, and are NOT overweight. They eat a balanced diet of carbs, fats, and protein, in moderate portions. What's wrong with that 'diet'?

Does anyone besides me see that 15 pages of posts siding one side or the other might suggest that a balanced diet, with healthy carbs, healthy fats, and healthy protein might okay? That BOTH camps might have valid points? Does anyone not support the basic calories in/calories out theory?
Again, throughout the world, the majority of the population is NOT on a diet, and are NOT overweight. They eat a balanced diet of carbs, fats, and protein, in moderate portions. What's wrong with that 'diet'?

Yes, yes, yes, and nothing.

Exactly

Yes, yes, yes, and nothing.


sure, of course, as long as...

healthy fats = all fats except trans and vegetable oils
healthy proteins = all animal sources (including fish), preferably grass fed (well, not the fish, obviously)
healthy carbs = max around 75 - 80 g/day (ymmv), strictly low starch vegetables, low sugar fruits

btw, I thought the world was undergoing an obesity crisis, and I dont know anyone who actually follows a balanced diet, as I understand the term. I'm sure they're out there, but I dont know them.

sure, of course, as long as...

healthy fats = all fats except trans and vegetable oils
healthy proteins = all animal sources (including fish), preferably grass fed (well, not the fish, obviously)
healthy carbs = max around 75 - 80 g/day (ymmv), strictly low starch vegetables, low sugar fruits

btw, I thought the world was undergoing an obesity crisis, and I dont know anyone who actually follows a balanced diet, as I understand the term. I'm sure they're out there, but I dont know them.

As I and others have mentioned, if it works for you, great. I eat a balanced diet and keep my weight down with no real effort.

So this works for me.

How's what you're doing working for you?

btw, I thought the world was undergoing an obesity crisis, and I dont know anyone who actually follows a balanced diet, as I understand the term. I'm sure they're out there, but I dont know them.

Yesterday my diet was right on target for my goals. :) I had one cup of coffee when I got up, and a bowl of Nature's Gate Optimum Power cereal (with flax seeds, fiber, and blueberries) in soy milk (calcium and isoflavones!) In the mid-morning I had a cup of green tea (catechins and other polyphenols!) and an apple (fiber and quercetin!), and for lunch I had a banana (fiber and minerals!), hummus (fiber, folate, magnesium, oleic acid, vitamin E!) and a whole wheat pita (fiber and B vitamins!). I had a Clif bar before my spinning class. For dinner, I ate about 4-5 oz. of baked salmon, about 1/2 c. of brown basmati rice, and about 2 c. of red leaf lettuce, mixed spring lettuce, cucumber, walnuts, cranberries, dressed with homemade olive oil and basalmic vinaigrette.

Here's hoping today goes as well! So far I've had my cereal, coffee, and tea. A pear for a snack, lunch was PBJ on whole grain/multi grain bread and organic stone ground corn chips. I'm saving my apple for an afternoon snack, I'll probably munch on some cottage cheese and water crackers when I get home, and then I have to decide on dinner -- maybe I should hit the co-op health food store now and get some veggies for a chicken stir-fry! That's exactly what I'll do. :)

and I dont know anyone who actually follows a balanced diet, as I understand the term. I'm sure they're out there, but I dont know them.

Is this where your going to chime in that people following a balanced diet are not really balanced ?
I pointed to two sites, harvard and jigsawhealth, both have differing but very similar definitions of balanced diets.

You can give that definition any term you want, the majority of the world would most likely call it balanced.

If you cant comprehend it, maybe all that fat is clogging your brain function.

sand the fact that EVERY primtive group found living on very high fat low carb diets are found to have excellent health, with virtually no problems with heard disease, cancer, diabetes. if sat. fat was really the problem this could not be the case.true enough, although I don't know about EVERY tribe :)

there's a few examples on this link:
http://www.theomnivore.com/sat-fat-chol-CHD.html

The Masai tribe of East Africa ate ~300g a day of mostly saturated fat, but were free of CHD.

The Samburu tribe, also of East Africa, virtually live on milk, consuming ~400g of sat fat a day through the wet season, but are free of CHD.

The people of the Pukapuka and Tokeluau Pacific atolls ate a bunch of coconuts, obtaining up to 53% of their daily calories from saturated fats, but were free of CHD.

And we all probably know about the French "paraodox", who, depsite eating more saturated fat than any other Western European country, have the lowest rates of CHD

true enough, although I don't know about EVERY tribe :)

there's a few examples on this link:
http://www.theomnivore.com/sat-fat-chol-CHD.html

The Masai tribe of East Africa ate ~300g a day of mostly saturated fat, but were free of CHD.

The Samburu tribe, also of East Africa, virtually live on milk, consuming ~400g of sat fat a day through the wet season, but are free of CHD.

The people of the Pukapuka and Tokeluau Pacific atolls ate a bunch of coconuts, obtaining up to 53% of their daily calories from saturated fats, but were free of CHD.

And we all probably know about the French "paraodox", who, depsite eating more saturated fat than any other Western European country, have the lowest rates of CHD

Do you have any information on the level of exercise these tribes experienced?

Do you have any information on the level of exercise these tribes experienced?there's some info on that link:

"You may also be thinking that a high level of physical activity was responsible for the low rate of CHD amongst the aforementioned populations. The Masai, for example, walk up to 30 miles a day. That no doubt helped, but not because it was countering any purported harmful effects of saturated fat. After all, heavy physical activity did not help the population of North Karelia, Finland in the 1960's. Despite a high proportion of lumberjacks and farmers, residents of this isolated community suffered one of the highest CHD rates in the world. The population of St. Helena, where motorized transport was rare and the residents were forced to transverse the hilly landscape by foot, was also observed to suffer from a high rate of CHD. Fat consumption was relatively low in St. Helena, but sugar consumption was high (17)." http://www.theomnivore.com/sat-fat-chol-CHD.html

Do they live in houses with central heating ? and plumbing ? Do they sit at a desk 8 hours a day, eat in restraunts? Live in a city with supermarkets as their source of food?

If not, its not really relevant to me.

Do they live in houses with central heating ? and plumbing ? Do they sit at a desk 8 hours a day, eat in restraunts? Live in a city with supermarkets as their source of food?
If not, its not really relevant to me.what? that's half the point!! It's NOT the fat that's killing us, it IS the desk job, the inactivity, smoking, the stress, lack of antioxidants, and the refined supermarket food (synthetic oils, refined carbs, acrylamides, etc),

what? that's half the point!! It's NOT the fat that's killing us, it IS the desk job, the inactivity, smoking, the stress, lack of antioxidants, and the refined supermarket food (synthetic oils, refined carbs, acrylamides, etc),

Is it possible that, after generations of Masai, Samburu, et. al. living in this fashion, natural selection has produced an organism that has adapted to this lifestyle?

Is it possible that, after generations of Masai, Samburu, et. al. living in this fashion, natural selection has produced an organism that has adapted to this lifestyle?also touched on in the article:

"Perhaps you are thinking that the Masai, Samburu and Pacific islanders are blessed with some sort of genetic protection against the allegedly harmful effects of saturated fat. Hardly. Studies show that when the Masai migrate to Nairobi where they are exposed to a more "refined" diet and sedentary lifestyle, their cholesterol levels rise, discounting the proffered notion that their low cholesterol levels were a manifestation of some sort of advantageous genetic aberration (12). When Pukapuka and Tokeluau residents moved to New Zealand, where they were similarly exposed to processed foods and a more sedentary lifestyle, they experienced a marked increase of gout, diabetes and other degenerative disorders (13-16." http://www.theomnivore.com/sat-fat-chol-CHD.html

some more interesting epidemiology:


"The incidence of acute myocardial infarction is seven times higher in southern India than in northern India; however, in southern India, dietary fat provides only 3.5 percent of total calories, 45 percent of which is polyunsaturated. In northern India, dietary fat provides 23 percent of total calories, only 2 percent of which is polyunsaturated.(3)
Ischemic heart disease is not a problem in populations whose diet derives over 45 percent of its total calories from coconut-derived fat.(4) The fat contained in the coconut is 95 percent saturated fat. This percentage of fat is even higher than butter and much higher than the common vegetable oils we currently use.
Before Western dietary habits were introduced into the Eskimo population, Eskimos lived almost exclusively on animal meat and animal fat. Yet the incidence of heart disease among the Eskimos was very low and cholesterol levels were below 200 mg.(5)
These studies should cause us to seriously question whether there is a direct link between the ingestion of dietary fat and arterial diseases such as athero and arteriosclerosis." http://www.arltma.com/CholMystDoc.htm

it IS the desk job, the inactivity, smoking, the stress, lack of antioxidants, and the refined supermarket food (synthetic oils, refined carbs, acrylamides, etc),

Hasnt that been obvious forever?
I dont know about you, but i dont need a study to tell me that.
But I still live a modern life, and live in a modern city, and shop at modern supermarkets.

I am unwilling to forgo everything, live in the bush and hunt for all my own food in order to add 6 months to my lifespan.

So with that in mind, i structure my balanced diet to go along with my office sitting, stress filled life. And that entails eating carbs, and untill sat fat is proven to not do harm when consumed in mass quantities, i'll continue to restrict it.

And i dont consider some pygmie tribes ability to eat high sat diet as proof.

These anecdotes of isolated tribes are interesting, but there may be many issues that are being overlooked. When you look at the overwhelming society of people in the world, and the diet they eat (China, for example), you find that heart disease is not as pronounced for them as it is in westernized countries with meat as the main staple.

I am unwilling to forgo everything, live in the bush and hunt for all my own food in order to add 6 months to my lifespan..hmmmmmm..... that's a bit extreme -- who's telling you to do that? The French don't hunt their own food, nor do they walk 30 miles day, but they eat as much (or more) saturated fat than us, but have much less CHD.

The tricky thing to avoid is stress. If we're motivated enough, we can eat all the right stuff, do the exercise, etc, but then the health experts tell us to "avoid stress". How to we just up and get rid of stress? Crikey!! It just sounds too easy. We can't all quit our jobs, get rid of all our financial responibilities, dump our families and ride our bikes and meditate all day.



and untill sat fat is proven to not do harm when consumed in mass quantities, i'll continue to restrict it.. Once again, who's suggesting 'mass' quantities, and what is 'massive'? At the moment, I would only suggest that we should at least not be frightened of saturated fat.



And i dont consider some pygmie tribes ability to eat high sat diet as proof.it's not meant to be proof; it is, at least, very interesting epidemiological data.

Mass quantities is over and above the 'recomended'.

And yes it is very interesting data, which is why i've said all along that its still up in the air, jury's still out, not yet proven either way. I'll continue to sit on the side of the fence that restricts it (not eliminates) untill such time as it is proven.

In science nothing is ever proven, I hate the word. We just get to a point where we can't think of new experiments to test/violate the current model. However, an overlooked fact is that just because a model is disproven doesn't mean that the model loses usefulness. Take Maxwell eq for example, disproved by quantum mech, yet still used to design countless electrical devices daily.

As I and others have mentioned, if it works for you, great. I eat a balanced diet and keep my weight down with no real effort.

So this works for me.

How's what you're doing working for you?


works great!

Do they live in houses with central heating ? and plumbing ? Do they sit at a desk 8 hours a day, eat in restraunts? Live in a city with supermarkets as their source of food?

If not, its not really relevant to me.


perhaps you'll listen to a doctor, Dr. Michael Eades, who recently attended a low carb meeting in New York, and he reports on his blog (http://blog.proteinpower.com/drmike/):



I also have a ton of stuff to post on about the Nutrition & Metabolism meeting, but I need some time to organize the info to present it coherently. Just to give you a taste, at the meeting we learned that low-carb diets: decrease headaches, decrease fatty infiltration of the liver, decrease the incidence of prostate cancer, reduce progression of diabetes, improve lipid parameters, decrease atherosclerosis, and a host of other improvements in health.

perhaps you'll listen to a doctor, Dr. Michael Eades, who recently attended a low carb meeting in New York, and he reports on his blog (http://blog.proteinpower.com/drmike/):

Why would you expect anything else from Dr. Eades? He clearly has a bias (there are three books by Dr. Eades promoting this particular diet).

Why would you expect anything else from Dr. Eades? He clearly has a bias (there are three books by Dr. Eades promoting this particular diet).


what you call bias, I call a deep understanding of the subject matter.

Why would you expect anything else from Dr. Eades? He clearly has a bias (there are three books by Dr. Eades promoting this particular diet).

so, anyone with a book or two is not to be trusted? so long Dr. Ornish, I guess....

so, anyone with a book or two is not to be trusted? so long Dr. Ornish, I guess....

I'll take anyone who publishes a book for profit, promoting a particular diet, as a questionable source. Its extremely unlikely that, in the event there is compelling evidence that goes against what he has written, he will concede. This would include Dr. Ornish, Dr. Atkins, et. al.

so, anyone with a book or two is not to be trusted? so long Dr. Ornish, I guess....exactly! Critizing someone for selling a book isn't enough to debunk their work. What about Pritikin, Ross Horne, and all the other well known pro-veg books?

do we all know about THINCS?
The International Network of Cholesterol Sceptics

http://www.thincs.org/members.htm

so, anyone with a book or two is not to be trusted? so long Dr. Ornish, I guess....

No, the issue is that an MD does not automatically erase bias. I wouldn't expect you to jump to endorse Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Ornish, Dr. Joel Fuhrman, or any of the members of the executive board of the PCRM. Why should I salivate over a few phrases from this Dr. Eades?

Funny thing. That Nutrition & Metabolism conference is sponsored by the BMC journal of Nutrition & Metabolism which was only recently founded specifically to pursue information about macronutrient distribution and obesity. Peer review by one Associate Editor (and Dr. Eades is one of these) plus an ad hoc reviewer. It's too new to receive an ISI Journal Impact Factor.

exactly! Critizing someone for selling a book isn't enough to debunk their work. What about Pritikin, Ross Horne, and all the other well known pro-veg books?

Absolutely. They would all be questionable in my book (no pun intended). Now, that doesn't mean I won't necessarily agree with something they've written. It may jive with sources I find reputable.

Have you guys read the Anthony Colpo (The Omnivore) vs Bike Forum member Dr. CBHungry exchange?
He registered as the 'Colnago Kid' for a few posts

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=988359#post988359

intersting

How about Joe Freil? Author of one of the most authoritative books on cycling training, The cyclists training bible. His newest book The paleo diet for athletes emphasizes low carb eating most of the time; with large amounts of fruit and juice eaten following workouts. No pasta or potatoes, however.

Strictly I don’t support true low-carb dieting but am a major supporter of low GI / moderate GL eating. Make simple choices like brown over white rice and yams instead of potatoes.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594860890/002-8853427-0411233?v=glance&n=283155

Have you guys read the Anthony Colpo (The Omnivore) vs Bike Forum member Dr. CBHungry exchange?
He registered as the 'Colnago Kid' for a few posts

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=988359#post988359

intersting

I love stuff like that. Reminds me of the Marshall McLuhan scene from Annie Hall.

Have you guys read the Anthony Colpo (The Omnivore) vs Bike Forum member Dr. CBHungry exchange?

LOL. Too bad he's such a pedantic ******* of a low carb apologist. I totally agree with many of his points. :)

Strictly I don’t support true low-carb dieting but am a major supporter of low GI / moderate GL eating. Make simple choices like brown over white rice and yams instead of potatoes.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594860890/002-8853427-0411233?v=glance&n=283155


you know, brown rice has almost as many carbs as white rice...

LOL. Too bad he's such a pedantic ******* of a low carb apologist. I totally agree with many of his points. :)


that's funny, you see a pedantic ***** apologist, I see a brave lone warrior fighting the power! although even I sometimes get put off by his abrasive style...

you know, brown rice has almost as many carbs as white rice...

Read his post again...

Try 3 times if it still doesnt clue into you.

Here i'll give you a hint : he says he isnt following a low carb diet, the AMOUNT therefore is not his concern, choosing GOOD carbs over BAD carbs is.

Read his post again...

Try 3 times if it still doesnt clue into you.

Here i'll give you a hint : he says he isnt following a low carb diet, the AMOUNT therefore is not his concern, choosing GOOD carbs over BAD carbs is.


gee, I must be a dummy, I thought his point was that yams were somehow better for you than potatoes, that brown rice is somehow better than white rice, when their carb and nutritional content are about the same. what makes them good carbs? ask a diabetic who uses a glucose meter how his blood sugar responds to good carb brown rice or whole wheat bread or yams...

anyway, why are some of you "balanced" eaters so darn cranky?

I thought his point was that yams were somehow better for you than potatoes, that brown rice is somehow better than white rice, when their carb and nutritional content are about the same. what makes them good carbs? ask a diabetic who uses a glucose meter how his blood sugar responds to good carb brown rice or whole wheat bread or yams...




That was my point, and the nutritional differences are far more significant than you make out.

As for the diabetic argument here is a link to the Canadian Diabetes Association for some light reading on GI/GL.

http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp

gee, I must be a dummy, I thought his point was that yams were somehow better for you than potatoes, that brown rice is somehow better than white rice, when their carb and nutritional content are about the same. what makes them good carbs? ask a diabetic who uses a glucose meter how his blood sugar responds to good carb brown rice or whole wheat bread or yams.

yes, apperently your a dummy. Go read the 16 pages again, try to comprehend this time. Some people follow systems other than yours. Its well explained why he is suggesting brown rice is better than white, regardless of your opinion on it.

if I ever said everyone else is wrong, I apologize, I certainly dont feel that way.

Remember saying that ? Try to keep it in mind when you respond to every person who posts a diet differing from yours.

[QUOTE=mrfreddy]anyway, why are some of you "balanced" eaters so darn cranky[QUOTE]

When your able to actually succeed at following a nutrition and training program, people will be more open to your opinions. Untill then, you appear as nothing more than a mouthpeice for someone elses system that you prove fails.

yes, apperently your a dummy. Go read the 16 pages again, try to comprehend this time. Some people follow systems other than yours. Its well explained why he is suggesting brown rice is better than white, regardless of your opinion on it.



Remember saying that ? Try to keep it in mind when you respond to every person who posts a diet differing from yours.

[QUOTE=mrfreddy]anyway, why are some of you "balanced" eaters so darn cranky[QUOTE]

When your able to actually succeed at following a nutrition and training program, people will be more open to your opinions. Untill then, you appear as nothing more than a mouthpeice for someone elses system that you prove fails.

like I said, cranky cranky cranky.... could I suggest a glass of wine or something to calm you down, buddy?

I am quite successful at my program, and I never said the guy was wrong. As far as I know, the low GI idea is fine, I'm just wondering how and why. looking at the nutritional data on potatoes versus yams, I dont see a big difference.

Potatoes, baked, flesh and skin, with salt

Nutrition Facts

Amount Per 1 cup
Calories 132.98
Calories from Fat 1.1

% Daily Value *
Total Fat 0.122g 0%
Saturated Fat 0.0317g 0%
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.0525g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.00244g
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 297.68mg 12%
Potassium 509.96mg 15%
Total Carbohydrate 30.78g 10%
Dietary Fiber 2.93g 12%
Protein 2.81g 6%
Alcohol 0g

Vitamin A 0 % Vitamin C 26 %
Calcium 1 % Iron 9 %
Vitamin D 0 % Vitamin E 0 %
Thiamin 7 % Riboflavin 2 %
Niacin 10 % Folate 3 %
Vitamin B-6 21 % Vitamin B-12 0 %
Phosphorus 7 % Magnesium 8 %
Zinc 3 % Copper 19 %


Yam, cooked, boiled, drained, or baked, with salt

Nutrition Facts

Amount Per 1 cup, cubes
Calories 157.76
Calories from Fat 1.71

% Daily Value *
Total Fat 0.19g 0%
Saturated Fat 0.0394g 0%
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.0816g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.0068g
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 331.84mg 14%
Potassium 911.2mg 26%
Total Carbohydrate 37.54g 13%
Dietary Fiber 5.3g 21%
Protein 2.03g 4%
Alcohol 0g

Vitamin A 0 % Vitamin C 27 %
Calcium 2 % Iron 4 %
Vitamin D 0 % Vitamin E 0 %
Thiamin 6 % Riboflavin 2 %
Niacin 4 % Folate 5 %
Vitamin B-6 16 % Vitamin B-12 0 %
Phosphorus 7 % Magnesium 6 %
Zinc 2 % Copper 10 %

I am quite successful at my program

4 years, your still overweight, and your still exercising at 60% hr.

If thats successfull, you speak wonders for your system

Diet Coke and water both have very similar nutritional labels too. One is still better for you. :)

Furthermore, GI is not measured in a test tube; they actually monitor the effect the food has on blood sugar.

As far as I know, the low GI idea is fine, I'm just wondering how and why.

in my opinion, glycemic load is just a pc watered down version of low carbing.. once the pc crowd realized they couldnt fight low carb on the merits, they decided to stick to the fear of sat. fats and come up with a semi-low-carb-eat-just-lean-meats-but-sat.-fats-are-still-the-devil type of plan. it admits that sugar and insulin are indeed a problem, but wont face the fact that sat. fats are not a problem. just my opinion tho...

Short memory?

Short memory?

there's a big difference in expressing an opinion, and saying someone is wrong. that quote you went to all the trouble to dig up IS my take on GI, but I'll admit I could be very wrong about it... I havent really studied it much. I have read posts from diabetics who don't buy into it, and they are the ones with the glucose meters and more at stake than you or me...

Ok now, the following is MY OPINION: of course one could follow a gi diet and as long as they exercise a lot, they will do great. but why take half measures, eating things like rice and bread and yams, why not go all the way, find better sources for those nutrients in animal meat, fish, low starch vegetables... and by the way, your risk factors for various diseases will improve, with our without exercise. I strongly recommend the exercise, of course.

4 years, your still overweight, and your still exercising at 60% hr.

If thats successfull, you speak wonders for your system


ah, there's so much you dont know. for one, I've been working out at closer to 80% MHR for the past week or so, I started out lower because I was, you know, just starting out....

I consider myself sucessfull because:

I'm 30 pounds lighter than I was 4 years ago
I still eat and drink all I want, I'm never hungry between meals
I feel great
My lipid profile is fantastic
I am able to exercise 90 minutes plus per day, six days per week

So, your saying there may be good carbs and bad carbs, but why differentiate, dont eat any because they are all bad.

Thats like everyone saying why differentiate between trans fat and monounsaturated fat, there both fats, dont eat either, their both bad.

So, your saying there may be good carbs and bad carbs, but why differentiate, dont eat any because they are all bad.

Thats like everyone saying why differentiate between trans fat and monounsaturated fat, there both fats, dont eat either, their both bad.


um, no, that's not what I said, and it's not like that...

you know, if you dont like my posts, why dont you just put me on your ignore list. You've just made mine. Rant all you want, i wont be reading your "contributions"

Finally