Touring - Firearm need?

Ok, so we have a few that carry firearms when riding. This is the US and we do have a right to do so.

What I wonder is have you ever needed to use your wepon when touring? In the 25 years I have been touring I have never felt the need to carry. I've camped on the sides of roads, under bridges and campgrounds. No one has ever bothered me.

Bent,

I have mixed feelings about continuing this discussion, because the subject is decidely unpleasant. Thinking about the prospect of a violent encounter anywhere is never fun. Biking is, however, which is a large part of the reason I read these boards.

Having said that, I'll say that I don't see there's a special discussion to be had about bicycle touring when it comes to violent crime. Violent crime happens. It can happen anywhere, in good neighborhoods, inside of one's home, in the parking lot of a grocery, in a park. There is, unfortunately, no special sphere of invulnerability that surrounds the tourist.

Though crime can happen anywhere it's more likely in some places than in others. Cycle touring usually takes place in areas that are pretty safe. That's why a lot of us do it. In general, actually, most of the U.S. is very crime-free by world standards. Outside of some nasty urban areas there's little violent crime, and not a whole lot of petty crime. Talking about the risk of violent attack might give the wrong impression that someone who worries about it thinks of the world as largely dangerous and terrifying.

So, I agree with you that cycle touring is reasonably safe. I certainly don't think you must tour armed, but I don't think someone who does is paranoid or irrational. I don't think there is any special question to ask as to why he "felt the need" to carry a gun; it's not as if the dangers he's preparing for are impossible. Many people carry cell phones or pepper spray while cycling because of worries about violent crime (though for other reasons too) and no one wonders why they "feel a need" to protect against violent attack. It's the same worry that moves some people to be armed.

I can't help but notice the asymmetry of attitudes here compared to discussions of helmet wearing. Many cyclists are quick to say that they wear a helmet always, even if the chance of a collision with their heads is low on any given ride. After all, it only takes one collision, they say, so why not be prepared? People who are perfectly comfortable guarding against a very small chance of a serious head injury all the time ought to find it understandable why some others guard against the small chance of a very serious violent encounter. After all, it only takes one. I can't see why one sort of preparation gives rise to some special bewilderment.

I've said that I think riding without a helmet is reasonable, at least in many common road riding circumstances. Some may wonder why I say that, but say that it's reasonable to carry a gun against a low chance of violent attack. Well, I think it's reasonable to carry the equipment or not, in either case. I don't say people are unreasonable for wearing helmets, and I don't say that people have to carry a gun. The risks in either case are such that one's preferences, whether for a bare head or for an unarmed self, can reasonably be given latitude.

Merriwether,

"Talking about the risk of violent attack might give the wrong impression that someone who worries about it thinks of the world as largely dangerous and terrifying."

I could not agree with you more, by far the most dangerous thing on tour is dealing with the every day traffic.

The reason I was asking is my SO is new to touring. And she has the wrong impression. I wanted to show her just how rare it is when touring.

My biggest concern with armed motorists/cyclists is that people will use their firearms at improper times. If a motorist runs you off the road-what good is a pistol going to do you? OTOH, if you are laying in the dirt, it's damn tempting to pull that gun out and take a couple of pot-shots as they drive away. Suddenly, you become the bad guy, thanks to that gun you have with you.

a few years ago, I knew a guy that drove a cab at night. He had been held up twice, each time from picking up fares off the streets late at night in bad neighbourhoods. Each time, he had about $50 stolen. In order to "protect" himself, he bought a .45 revolver (legally), and carried it with himself while working (legally). One night, he picked up a questioable charachter in a bad neighbourhhod, and the guy wanted his money. Out came the revolver. He fired 6 shots, reloaded, and chased the bleeding robber through back yards, firing off another 6 shots. He caused better than $2000 damage to his car, had his gun taken by the police, lost his cab license, and was arrested for reckless endangerment. He also was held responible for damage caused by his stray bullets. The robber survived, and served 1 year.

Originally posted by D*Alex
My biggest concern with armed motorists/cyclists is that people will use their firearms at improper times. If a motorist runs you off the road-what good is a pistol going to do you? OTOH, if you are laying in the dirt, it's damn tempting to pull that gun out and take a couple of pot-shots as they drive away. Suddenly, you become the bad guy, thanks to that gun you have with you.



There's no need to substitute speculation for evidence. When it comes at least to CHL holders-- the only civilians outside of Vermont who can carry on their persons legally-- what you're worried isn't a serious problem. It doesn't happen. You can count on one hand the number of CHL holders who've been prosecuted for illegal brandishing out of hundreds of thousands of people over a decade and-a-half. None have ever "pulled their gun on a police officer at a traffic stop", another favorite hobgoblin of the left (though not a worry you're articulating here).

Furthermore, the police shoot bystanders or innocent parties in lethal force encounters about 11% of the time. Private citizens, by contrast, do so about 2% of the time. (See Lott, and Kleck on this.) Police have a more difficult job, of course. When you're defending yourself you know exactly who's guilty and who's innocent. So, this doesn't show that police are especially bad at what they do.

If presumption is that people can be trusted with 2,000 pound bludgeons moving at 60 mph, if they can be trusted to vote, and if they and to buy their own houses or their own property, then they ought to be trusted with a gun. I don't see any reason to think that the initial presumption when it comes only to guns is that people are just incontinent hotheads who are going to be shooting whenever they're ticked off.

On my world tour and on many of the shorter tours I have taken in the USA and elsewhere, I have had discussions like this with other riders. I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment and what it says: sure ther is gaggle about militias, but it also says the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms...blah blah. I am also a firm believer in what I think it was meant to imply: that if politicians get too hung up on themselves and push their proverbial heads too far up the voters butts, we will blow them away.

That being said, carrying a loaded weapon is a grave responsibility and wielding it, orders of magnitude even more so. You should only carry a gun (or any weapon) if you are trained in its use and the consequences of that use. I do not have such training, and doubt i could handle the aftermath of blowing someone away (emotionally) unless I was violently threatened to begin with.

In the areas I traveled where a great number of people were probably armed (Colombia, Peru, Turkey, Pakistan, come to mind) I still felt I was better off not being armed and counting io my wits, charm, superior intelligence, charisma and overpowering modesty to get me thru any tough situations. In the several incidents I DID have, I can't think of any time I wished I had a gun or, having one, would have had the guts to use it. Its that plain and that simple.


roughstuff

Originally posted by Roughstuff
my wits, charm, superior intelligence, charisma and overpowering modesty

I never would have guessed! :D

I'm impressed by all your comments and find this subject most interesting, since I do plan to carry a weapon on my tour. I have to tell you I'm a former Marine and Vietnam Veteran and know how to handle myself in all situations. I am about to retire and plan to tour the USA next spring strictly on a bicycle and I'm choosing mostly backroads for my travels. I'm not concern about situations with other human beings but being out in the wilderness and no weapon is insane. Common sense screams out and says you're not going to persuade a mountain lion or bear that is hungry not to see you as his next meal. Unfortunatly wild animals survive on instincts and are not politically correct. Plus, I plan to do this all on my own and though I do have wit and intelligence and somewhat entertaining I doubt that the predator will be impressed. I'm constantly researching every forum and BBS on this subject and have read many perspectives on this subject. I DO NOT intend for any animal or human being to spoil a lifelong dream of me touring the US. I left the Marines in 1970 and haven't touched a weapon since even though on occasion there were knives and guns pointed at me and it was those people's misfortunes to pick on the wrong guy. I just want to say to all those that think and live their lives as if there are no other options to what happens to you and that all is inevitable; you do have a choice.

I do road tours and do carry my 38 special snub nose with me that I am licensed to carry. While I am riding, I have a safety lock on it and it is also unloaded. I usually will pull off on the side of the road and walk far back into the woods, where I think that the chances of anyone ever seeing me at night would be extremely remote. I also carry it with me because when I am in the woods, there is always the possibility of a wild animal coming after me too.

Originally posted by pwrchip
... I'm not concern about situations with other human beings but being out in the wilderness and no weapon is insane. Common sense screams out and says you're not going to persuade a mountain lion or bear that is hungry not to see you as his next meal. Unfortunatly wild animals survive on instincts and are not politically correct. ...

It seems to me that you fear of wild life is overdone.

The attacks of bears on adults are extremely rare. Mainly they are caused by a human who does not know the rules of behavour in woods and runs into a bear and scare it.

In general, wild life is afraid of humans. You should not worry about wild life much.

I encountered the bear on the Great Allegheny Passage in PA only once. Here is the photo. Unfortunately, I was scared myslef a bit and dared to make photo only after I cycled quite a distance from it. The bear came out as a black dot only.

The bear was on a trail before us. It was very early in the morning after 2 days of continuous rain. We were the first on the trail that morning. When we saw a bear, my spouse suggested to shout at it, but finally we just cycled on it. It left the trail and gave us the way. It was a young bear of about 1.8 meters high.

But then again it came out and walked in our direction. We just added the speed. Then I stopped for 10 seconds, made this photo and cycled further.

When we decided to cycle on this bear I am to admit that I took out my bike titanium knife, unfolded it, and kept it in my arm until we were about 500 meters away.

After this we were a bit jumpy and "saw a bear" behind every bush for a while, especially at dusk. But never actually saw any after this.

I've been having thoughts about this myself, but only because I don't feel safe on my bike in the USA.

Actually, I'm afraid to tour in the USA. I'm female, I'm black, and I will probably be alone, and I know that won't work in some parts of the USA. Forget about travelling through the deep south. Kentucky is out of the question right now too. In fact, all those states in the vicinity of states like Kentucky, Virginia, Georgia, etc. are out of the question. I don't feel like I'd be safe on a backroad, and I've spoken to a couple of other people on the topic (black folks), and they agree. Since I don't see myself as a pistol-whippin' mama, I guess the USA is off limits for me. At least, for now it is.

I carry mace, and that's about as strong as it gets. I got a friend in the FBI, and he's volunteered to take me out to the gun range sometime and teach me how to shoot. If I ever decide to ride through the USA, I figured I'd take him up on the offer sometime.

I don't think I'm a person who walks in fear afraid of her own shadow- I've been backpacking on a regular basis outside of the USA for 11 years now. I went through Chiapas in Mexico back when they were having political unrest and there were men in army fatigues and guns stopping the bus and forcing everyone off and they were going through our bags and checking our passports. I went through Cambodia a few years back when they were having problems with Pol Pot. I had some bad border problems in Thailand, and I had fears that the Thais were going to hold me back at the border.

I could continue. I'm not a person that would take the responsibility of a gun lightly, and I wouldn't carry one unless I really felt like my life would be endangered, and I wouldn't use one unless it was a last resort.

I love the USA, but I may have to pack some heat to keep myself from getting into some trouble down the road. I don't mean to offend those from the states I mentioned, but I would have to be silly not to take this into consideration when travelling through the USA. Too bad. :(

Any women out there considering taking a weapon with them on the road? I'm curious.

K Brown

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
... I'm female, I'm black, and I will probably be alone, and I know that won't work in some parts of the USA. Forget about travelling through the deep south. Kentucky is out of the question right now too. In fact, all those states in the vicinity of states like Kentucky, Virginia, Georgia, etc. are out of the question. I don't feel like I'd be safe on a backroad, and I've spoken to a couple of other people on the topic (black folks), and they agree. ...

My spouse, my son, and me were traveling in the USA this summer. We cycled from D.C. to Pitsburgh, PA, and back. Altogether 1500 km. (http://www.enetplanet.com/cycling/usa/)

We are not black, but at the same time we are not what one would call white. We are from the former soviet union, and somehow people can guess it from a distance.

Being russians, we had some worries that people might have bitter memories from cold war times. We spent nights on campgrounds, often completely alone. Sometimes on commercial camping sites with many people around.

Only once we had a problem. It was close to D.C., and ironically a seeming threat was from colored young men. We are very quick to spot a criminal interest. And it seemed to us this was it. But I can not be 100% sure.

We just moved out from that campground and put our tent in wild woods (by this breaking the law ourselves, as it was along the C&O Canal, where it is illegal to camp in woods there). But we had no other choice.

Another incident was when also a black man, a Pentagon officer, with whom we cycled for a while together, suddenly got suspicious that I new English military alphabet spelling, which everyone knows from the school English course. I did my best to convince him of my pacifistic views and it was not a problem afterwards.

We were travelling without firearms. Firstly we do not own any, secondly we could not take a gun on board of a passenger aircraft anyway. But fortunately we never actually needed it during the 3 weeks tour in the USA.

More than that, our worries about lingering cold war hostility were ungrounded, and people were generally friendly to us.

Maybe your worries are also ungrounded, but I can not tell for sure. If not, than I am on your side and consider those people from Kentucky, and other places you mentioned, unreasonable to hate a fellow cyclist. We are so few in comparison with motorists that every cyclist is dear to me, without regard to an origin.

Nope, don't think so. I don't think my fears are ungrounded-

Unfortunately, I've been chased, propositioned, and called the n-words more times than I can count. Each time, white males...

Doesn't mean that I think every white male is after me either- just my experience so far.

Perhaps there's something going on with Russians that I know nothing about- I can't tell a Russian from a Serv, from a German. If people are looking at you thinking about a "cold war", which I believe was some big propaganda boogeyman created to keep Americans in fear of another country, they must be really alert- I am not even really sure what the hostility would be grounded on.

I'm glad you and your family were safe while travelling through the USA. Unfortunately, I am not surprised at all that you had problems in the D.C. area with the black youth- it is unfortunate that D.C. is one of the poorest and most crime-ridden cities in the country. Poverty is rampant in our nation's capital, and the horrible part of all this is that it is the black people who suffer the most from lack of good schools and education, job opportunities, safe neighborhoods and decent housing are just some of the problems facing that city. I wouldn't find myself riding through that city either. When living in circumstances as dire as that, there are some people that resort to violence as a quick solution for the problems that plague them. Wrong place, wrong time... but that's another issue for another forum and another time.

Unfortunate also about the guy you travelled with from the Pentagon, although I wasn't clear what the issue was about- something about english spelling? However, when you take on a travelling partner, sometimes you have good experiences, sometimes you have bad ones. Just be careful who you pick- sometimes it could get ugly. I had an experience a few years back with a couple of white women I'd met along the way that I was travelling with. They were nice, but somehow, a couple of days into it, they somehow got obsessed about some color issues- I tried to ignore it for the longest, but we ended up having a bad argument at some point. At the end of the day, we parted ways in an uneasy manner. We spent a couple more days travelling after the fight, but it just wasn't fun anymore, so we decided to separate. Each of us went in a different direction, and it was a shame, because I really did like the blonde one. She was cool, but I think she felt caught up in the middle of it. Other people I've travelled with since I've not had a problem with, as I really learned my lesson and decided that before I travelled with anyone, I would definitely take more time to talk to them and get to know them- and if I didn't feel comfortable with them, I'd dump them within 24 hours. I've travelled with people of different colors and ethnicities, and since following my self-imposed rule, I haven't had any problems. Plus, I know when to avoid certain places- I'm not crazy. Life is worth living, and there's just some places I would probably not go to. Too bad, because I'm sure they're great places to go. But I do know that some places, travelling solo, being female, and yes... even being black, is a problem. There are probably not many people on the forum that would understand it, as they don't share my experiences, history, ethnicity, etc. It's the same as me not fully comprehending your story as a Russian male travelling with their family through the USA.

As far as the firearm issue, would I carry a gun if I were in certain parts of the USA? Maybe. Would I travel to cities or states that have been historically.... not very kind to my people.... probably not. I'm not up for taking that step- not by myself and not without some kind of protection. That's just me.

Oh, and we've advanced beyond calling black people "colored". That was something from an earlier time period, and some people definitely don't like hearing black people described that way. This is not me being politically correct, btw. It's just updating you on the times....

Back to the firearms issue....

K Brown

Actually that black officer was not a problem at all. He just was surprised that I know the miltary spelling. Like: A - alfa, B - bravo, D - delta, C - charly, E - echo, etc. He got a bit suspicious.

I brought this case just to illustrate that sometimes one gets an unexpected at all reaction.

OK. Thanks. I will not use the word "colored".

I guess a lot depends on the individual himself/herself. For example, I like very much Rachel Crawford. She is more charming that most white girls, I guess.

Not everything is so easy with the cold war. The USSR sipplied weapons to Vietnam in 60s. Many Americans were wounded in this war. This frusrtation could be directed against us personally. By the way I had been too young at that time and had nothing to do with it.

Fortunately, these fears never materialized, just as I had hoped.

Koffee Brown,
I can understand your fears, after living in the south (Fl) for five years. Some of the people I met.... Oh, boy.

I am happy that no one has said that needed to use there firearm on the road, maybe there is hope for this world after all. In all my years of touring I have never had a problem other then on the road. And thats what I wanted my SO to see.

Every state has it's own laws. Be sure you know them. The right to own a firearm is not necessarily the right to carry one even in your jurisdiction or another one.a felony conviction for illegal carry or use,can mean you no longer have the right to even own one.Think about it.

Originally posted by pwrchip
I'm impressed by all your comments and find this subject most interesting, since I do plan to carry a weapon on my tour. I have to tell you I'm a former Marine and Vietnam Veteran and know how to handle myself in all situations. I am about to retire and plan to tour the USA next spring strictly on a bicycle and I'm choosing mostly backroads for my travels. I'm not concern about situations with other human beings but being out in the wilderness and no weapon is insane. Common sense screams out and says you're not going to persuade a mountain lion or bear that is hungry not to see you as his next meal. You had better check state laws.Every one is different and many do not recriprocate.If you are on a road,you are not in the wilderness. The Idea of mountain lions and bears eating you is ludicrous,except is a few isolated parts of the back country not typically frequented by bicyclist,a grizzley could cause you to have a bad day. I backpack,in true wilderness,and my main worry is 2 legged varmits.Make sure you have a big enough firearm.

Originally posted by pletcgm
While I am riding, I have a safety lock on it and it is also unloaded. In that case, it will do you about as much good as a rock.

Originally posted by Koffee Brown


I carry mace, and that's about as strong as it gets. I got a friend in the FBI, and he's volunteered to take me out to the gun range sometime and teach me how to shoot. If I ever decide to ride through the USA, I figured I'd take him up on the offer sometime.



K Brown Even mace will get you in trouble in some juristictions too....As for the firearm,make sure you have the proper permits,assuming you could even obtain them.tough enough for a US citizen in many jurisdictions...I would think Mexico and Cambodia would be worse than some of the US you mention..Things are better here west of the Mississippi river.

I am careful with my mace, but I won't leave home without it. Once I am out of my own state, it's mace all the way! I know the laws vary from country to country, and I don't try to take mace back with me into the USA when I am travelling from abroad back to the USA. If you know of a way I can check state to state on the laws regarding mace, pepper spray and tear gas, let me know. I usually ride to different states in the summertime- it's easy to ride into Wisconsin or Indiana from Chicago. It would be nice to know if I'm breaking the laws once I cross the state line!

I'd think it would be more dangerous in other countries than in the US, but although I felt scared of my situation, I never thought these men would physically harm me for no reason. Of course, I could have been naive too- the worst situation I was in was when I was in Chiapas. It was pretty scary. I was travelling without a visa, and I didn't know I needed one when I left the US. I checked with the INS before I left, and they said I wouldn't need one, and the border patrol also said I didn't need one. Turns out I needed one. So every time my bus got stopped at a checkpoint, the men would storm the bus and force us all out and check id's. I was the only non-Mexican on the bus, and as my passport didn't have the necessary visa, I think it looked suspicious. The men were really angry at me, and I didn't speak enough spanish to explain. Luckily, the bus driver understood somewhat the situation, so whenever we got stopped, he directly intervened on my behalf. The other passengers on the bus also seemed to take me under their wing, so I felt pretty safe. I doubt that if I'd been in the USA, people would have been so fast to stand up for me if I were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's what makes me so fearful of travelling through the USA. I'd rather take my chances in a country with political problems than in Kentucky or Georgia anyday....

Thanks for that info on the mace issues. Do you think there's some kind of license I can get to carry my mace across state lines?

K Brown

Originally posted by Koffee Brown


Thanks for that info on the mace issues. Do you think there's some kind of license I can get to carry my mace across state lines?

K Brown There are places where it is just not legal to have it at all.Some may be state,some local jurisdictions. It's like firearms are other weapons that may be 'illegal', in that better to suffer the posssible consequences of that action rather than that of being without.Put another way as some say-"I'd rather be in jail than dead."

Even if one does not carry a firearm, it does not mean that safety precautions shall not be taken.

I always do the following on a tour:

- I keep a sharp knife easily available (but folded) inside a tent at night. It would allow me to cut the tent fabric for an emergency exit. I read that it is a must.

- always have a look at people around.

- hang couple of a small bells on bikes at night for an alarm. Of course, lock bikes.

- sign your e-mail address on the equipment with the marker (to reduce its market value)

- before a tour learn and exercise some techniques of fist, stick & knife fighting.

- learn and drill the technique of rock throwing. The precisely thrown stone has the similar effect as a pistol shot, but without the incrimination. Besides, the target throwing of rocks is a very good exercise. And such a training is a lot of fun.

- always have an exit strategy. For example, if you were attacked in woods with the overwhelming force, then it is more useful to have one of you to run away. If he/she saw the attackers, then it is less likely, that the rest of you will be killed by attackers. As there is the witness at large. It would be useful to wound heavily at least one of the attackers. They will have to worry about his medical treatment, and it makes it less likely that you will be killed. They will have to visit the doctor, who may get curious, etc.

Thanks Max!

I hadn't thought of all that, but I'm going to print that one out for my records when I travel.

One thing I wouldn't do would be to run away if my partner was attacked. I'm telling you, I would do my best to release the biggest can of whoop-@ss on the person attacking my friend. That way, the attacker would definitely be the most likely one going to a hospital to seek medical attention. I promise you that.

One thing I do make sure of is that my phone is charged fully at night when I am sleeping in a campground. If I get attacked, I can call 9-1-1 and hopefully, my phone has GPS and the police can track where I am located, plus I can keep them on the phone while I go out to lay the whoop-@ss on the attacker.

I also keep a knife handy in my tent too. I have no problems knifing someone if necessary. I've learned where you can knife someone and cause the most damage. I also know where all the major arteries in the body are located, so no problem with slashing someone in a major artery should they attack me- they can bleed to death while I release my can of whoop-@ss on them too....

Gruesome subject, but when you're on the road, you have to do whatever it takes to make sure you're safe.

I am interested in some strategies on what to do if some dumb@ss tries to chase you down on your bike- I had a van chase me once in my neighborhood and once in Los Angeles. I was highly p*ssed, but I didn't know what else to do but pedal my butt off.


Koffee

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
... One thing I wouldn't do would be to run away if my partner was attacked. ...

OK. It should be decided on the spot in accordance with the situation. However, I read that a famous general told once - to win is to surprise.

Imagine yourself in the attacker's shoes. Would you rather gun down some tourists who sit neat and tight, or if some one of them saw you and escaped? It does not mean that one shall not return on one's own terms.

Also I read that the seconds between when you decided to draw a weapon out and when you are ready to use it are most important. It means that one shall drill not only the technique of actual weapon usage, but the drawing itself. It should be very fast and unnoticeable.

Good list of items, Max.

Anyone thinking about these matters might want to read a good book or two on personal defense, and/or take a class. The most important thing in self-defense is mental preparedness. If you are alert, you're less likely to find yourself in a situation in which you're endangered. If things do reach the point of a confrontation, it is much easier for you to react decivisely, and effectively, if you have played through scenarios in your mind beforehand. If you haven't planned, if the whole thing comes to you as a shock, you're much more likely to be paralyzed or compliant. These reactions can be very dangerous, as they encourage aggression from criminal types. People without experience in violent confrontations don't always realize this, but I promise you it's true. (Though sometimes you have no choice but to comply, as in some armed robberies. At any rate, even in these cases it is better for you to be able to _decide_ what to do, rather than acting uncontrollably.) A book you might read is called _Strong on Defense_ by a guy called Strong. There are others, too.

Advance planning in camping is worthwhile. If I'm by myself out in the campgrounds, I prefer to put the tent in the trees, away from the trails. Think about what it would be like if you were walking trails in a park you knew in the middle of the night. Would you explore randomly off of the trail? If you were the sort to steal, or to harrass a camper, would you go looking for this out in the trees? Or would you just take advantage of someone you ran across in a campsite? Obviously don't make yourself visible from the road.

Cell phones are a good idea. I wouldn't rely on rural sheriffs having GPS anything, though, much less the ability to pinpoint your call, so you'd have to try and say something. It will take a while for someone to get out to help you, too. So, it's best to have a plan B.

Touring is pretty safe, I think. I feel safe out in the woods in rural areas. But it never hurts to be prepared.

Carrying a firearm while touring is a personal choice. I don't carry one nor even own one. Don't have a need for one. Hopefully never will. I do understand it is our right to own and carry them though. I am not arguing that fact.

But, for those that do carry them or want to I ask how do you get away with carrying a concealed weapon legally in another state other then your own? I thought that when a permit is issued to carry a concealed weapon it is only for that person's state. If this is the case when you cross a state line aren't you breaking the law? Is it worth the risk?

I thought that when a permit is issued to carry a concealed weapon it is only for that person's state. If this is the case when you cross a state line aren't you breaking the law? Is it worth the risk?
In many cases, it is, and you would be. For instance, if you bring a pistol into NY from PA, and that pistol does not have a New York permit, you have just committed a class D felony. Concealing it would result in a second felony charge.

What bothers me about this entire thread is the way people seem to need to justify carrying deadly force with them. I also get the feeling that many people are just looking for something to shoot at.

I've biked in the city, suburbs, and countryside. I've also camped. I once saw a black bear while I was camping, and managed to scare it off by banging pots and pans. Bear gone. 10 minutes later, some yahoo in a nearby campsite started firing off multiple rounds (at a distance, yet) at that same bear, and the bear didn't move. He missed every single shot, and probably risked the lives of a couple dozen people within range, too.

In all my years riding, including commuting through a ghetto, I have never encounted a situation where a pistol would've been a help. I have, however, had a few occasions where, if I had a pistol, I might've been tempted to fire off a round at some jerkafter a confrontation, though. Twice, I've used pepper spray (once on a vicious dog, once on a deranged homeless person), and neither case would've been better handled by a firearm.

D*Alex said:

Twice, I've used pepper spray
I carried some called "Halt" but I have never used or tested it. I have often wandered about the effectiveness of pepper spray.

What kind did you use? How effective was it on the dog, and the person?

It was Halt brand spray. The dog ran off to his (idiotic) owner yelping as if his tail had been cut off. The wacko bum kept swinging his fists, but couldn't see anything, and ended up falling flat on his face in the dirt. 2 people sat on him until the police came to take him back to the"Waldorf Hysteria" .....

Originally posted by D*Alex

In many cases, it is, and you would be. For instance, if you bring a pistol into NY from PA, and that pistol does not have a New York permit, you have just committed a class D felony. Concealing it would result in a second felony charge.

In all my years riding, including commuting through a ghetto, I have never encounted a situation where a pistol would've been a help. I have, however, had a few occasions where, if I had a pistol, I might've been tempted to fire off a round at some jerkafter a confrontation, though. Twice, I've used pepper spray (once on a vicious dog, once on a deranged homeless person), and neither case would've been better handled by a firearm.

What is your hangup? Look, no one who should have a gun wants to have to use it. But, despite your vast experience commuting in the "ghetto" and your overactive imagination, sometimes a person is faced with brandishing or even using a firearm or suffering grievous harm or death. That's the way it is. It's not common, but it happens. And no, it's not always the fault of the victim, for having inappropriately aggressive attitudes, or whatever other faults you imagine gun owners have.

But you already know this, of course. That's why in a thread on cell phones or pepper spray or whatever you wouldn't post and say "you don't have to worry about crime. I've ridden in the ghetto a long time and never had any need for a cell phone". No, it's only when firearms are discussed that the risk of violent crime is all in the head.

Now if you aren't competent to carry a gun, because you're too hotheaded, then by all means don't carry one. We can both agree on that.

As far as the law goes, anyone interested in interstate permit reciprocity can see www.packing.org

OK, let's look at this scientifically, shall we?

Process for using a pistol while riding a bike:

1: stop bike

2: unzip wedge pack (you aren't going to stuff it inside your shorts, are you?

3: pull out gun

4: aim

Elapsed time: what, 5, 6 seconds?? This is for protection?

Alternate process for using a pistol while riding a bike:

1: while riding, fumble for pistol in pockets, pack, whatever.

2: fire wildly, while riding, missing target, and creating a public hazard

alternate step 2: drop pistol on ground, stop, reach to ground while picking up pistol.

alternate step2: accidentally shoot b@lls off while pulling pistol out from shorts.

etc., etc.

Process for using pepper spray:

1: remove spray from waist.

2: spray in eyes

elapsed time: 1 second

OK, now, macho boys, you can try to convince yourself that your 2 lb hunk of steel is giving you an advantage, but all it's doing is making you look like a sociopath. Leave the firepower home when you ride.

man why don't you just stop it? Your point has been driven itno the ground dug up. dusted off and re used in this thread several times. People use and carry weapons whether you like it or not. Also to address your question to me way back in this thread, yes I do. I was trained in how to defend myself and erase a situation since I was eight years old.
Some people are exposed to things in their life "D" get over it and move on. You are not any beter than anyone else. I am happy to say that I can handle myself in most situations effectively and efficently. Can you?

Just to give the Americas an idea of how far they are adrift from European countries where even the ownership of handgun was banned years ago and the carrying of them in public was banned nearly 200 years ago

As of now even things that look like a hand gun will no longer be permitted.

FYI: The population of the UK is about 60 million or quarter that of the USA, the population of the EU where most of the laws apply is currently about 250 million, so about the same as the USA and Canda combined. - I wonder how the Police figure of 9,000 gun related offences (including toys) a year compare to the number of gun offences in the USA in a year. I can only imagine the US figure will be measured in millions.

Todays Guardian


Blunkett to ban replica guns

Air weapons also targeted in crackdown on firearms

Alan Travis, home affairs editor
Thursday January 9, 2003
The Guardian

A ban on the carrying of replica guns and air weapons in public was announced by the home secretary, David Blunkett, last night, in advance of publication today of official figures showing that gun crime has risen by 20% in the past year, from around 7,000 to 9,000 offences.
The second part of the package tightening Britain's gun laws in the wake of the killing of two teenage girls in Birmingham last week will also ban under-18s from owning airguns and only permit teenagers to use guns under the supervision of an adult over 21.

The home secretary is also close to announcing a ban on the sale and manufacture of specialist replica guns such as the Brocock, which are particularly easy to convert to fire live ammunition.

Existing owners of the "tandem air cartridge systems", as they are known, will be given a choice of being licensed or handing in their guns.

The decision to act against the carrying of imitation firearms follows a campaign by the police who say they are used in an estimated 60% of robberies, and by young men as a "fashion accessory" and a means of intimidation.

The exact number of replica guns in circulation is unknown but it is thought to be more than 500,000. Legislation is to be introduced to create a new criminal offence of carrying a replica or blank-firing gun in public without a good reason.

The ban is not designed to outlaw toy guns but to hit those criminals who use "realistic" replicas.

The Home Office minister, Bob Ainsworth, said last night: "Replica guns are often used in crime and cause real difficul ties for police officers who have to decide - often in highly pressured situations - if they are real or not. A ban on carrying them in public without good reason will help the police to tackle those out to cause fear and commit crime."

In July 2001 a traffic warden, Derek Bennett, 29, was shot dead by a police marksman in Brixton while carrying what police thought was a handgun. It was later discovered to be a gun-shaped cigarette lighter.

The ban on replica weapons will not be total. Their public use in theatres, museums, reputable collections and for historical reenactments will still be allowed.

The decision will hit the replica industry hard. Sales of replicas have soared since the ban on handguns announced in the wake of the Dunblane school massacre, doubling to £9.8m a year.

Sportsmarketing, the largest importer of replica weapons to Britain, yesterday said the government should concentrate on the illegal gun trade.

The ban on teenagers' owning air pistols is designed to hit a problem of louts using these weapons to terrorise their communities.

Other countries such as France and Belgium have gone further and banned uncertified lookalikes and toys. But a Home Office spokeswoman said: "It's about people causing difficulties for police officers and that's obviously different from a child in the street playing cowboys and indians."

Not always a firearm is an option. For example, if you are going on a tour to another country by a passenger airplane, you, most probably, will not have a gun there.

But if all your personal security is built only around a gun, then you may find yourself defenseless, when you most need it.

There are many other situations, where you just can not have a gun. On a beach, for instance. When you just have a swimming suit on.

It is possible to buy a CS spray in almost any country. But spray also has draw backs:
- the usage in a closed space like a room is undesirable;
- after actual usage, the CS gas gets on one's own hands too;
- in case of winds you or your friends around also may get a dose of the spray in the eyes.

I come to believing that a security is a dynamic system, which can never be absolute.

I would also add that the movement is also very important. It is useful to be able to walk very fast without visible effort, and also to be able run fast and long.

It seems to me that it is also very useful to play a game, as part of the training, where one person has to run after and touch some of the others. I do not know the English name of this game. It creates the reflexes to quickly change directions while running.

The game of throwing snowballs in one another (also forgot the English word for this game) creates the ability to dive under a shot, which is basically the same as during actual shooting.

So the security training may include running, sparing with
shadow, precise rock throwing, stick fencing, etc. This is good heathy exercise, even if you are lucky and never need it.

Shooting, however, involves burning chemical powder, besides the noise may also be damaging for health. As alternative, it is possible to practice shooting with a pneumatic rifle. The skills are about the same.

What I find amusing is this: Not even the gun nuts on this board can challenge my observation about the uselessness of carrying a firearm while riding. There is no way of justifying carrying a gun on a bike, so they resort to ad hominem attacks, like this one:


man why don't you just stop it? Your point has been driven itno the ground dug up. dusted off and re used in this thread several times.

Well, I'm not going to stop it, so get used to it. You never miss a chance to drive your points halfway to China, so consider this an equal-time rebuttal. In fact, let me make my point perfectly clear:


There is no possible way to justify carrying a gun for protection while riding a bike. Firing from a moving bike is inaccurate and reckless, and a legally stowed gun will take too long to retrieve to be useful.

There. Simple and understandable. Anybody care to address this, without resorting to verbal bullying?

Originally posted by D*Alex


In many jurisdictions,OPEN carry is permitted.But,people that are going to do it are going to do it and are not going to waste time arguing with the pros or antis about it.And I for the sake of a non argumentI ain't telling which tribe I'm in.So there!

Perhaps. But, even in a holster (can you imagine wearing a holster with road lycra??), you would really have to keep the gun snapped in, to prevent it from falling out. Add a couple extra seconds there...... And you still need to stop before firing.

Originally posted by D*Alex
Perhaps. But, even in a holster (can you imagine wearing a holster with road lycra??), you would really have to keep the gun snapped in, to prevent it from falling out. Add a couple extra seconds there...... And you still need to stop before firing. Now you are grasping.Stop? Really ? How many bad guys did John Wayne get from the back of a galloping horse?wouldn't a bike be easier?

I just shoot them with my handlebar mounted rocket launcher with remote trigger, and pop up scope. .03 secs response time! Only adds 13 lbs. to the bike, and for only $1200 more, you can get the accessory grenade launcher, and oil slick rear dispenser!

L8R

I have no problem with those of you who elect to carry while touring in strange lands or elsewhere under your own prescribed needs... What I do have a problem with is any idiot that elects to carry, but hasn't the first idea as to handling themselves when lethal force is present and shooting is justified and there's adrenaline piercing through your vanes.

Decide if you're willing to shoot someone or something! If you're not, it's stupid to carry.

Decide what conditions need to exist before you'll draw your weapon. Can you shoot an animal attacking....maybe it's a rabid dog, or God forbid, some bozo ransacking your camp in the night and wakes you out of a deep sleep.

Most important... don't think about it, do it... PRACTICE, and PRACTICE some more with your chosen weapon. Practice the art of drawing your weapon (empty) from where ever your going to keep it on your person or storage location.

Practice real instinct shooting, because that's what will be required in an emergency, also loading your weapon under pressure.

Use a stop watch to time your actions. Don't care about the time. Using a stop watch simulates causes adrenaline and that is akin to when there's real Adrenaline fear and demonstrates how Adrenalin pumps BIG TIME.

If you're NOT going to do any of the above RESPONSIBLE safety precautions and still carry... THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT of the Neanderthal kind, and likely will become another stat that sportsman's like me and the NRA has to contend with. If you fear the responsibility associated with any weapon, don't bother to own one... Cause tomorrows news will likely read... cyclist shot with his own weapon by a perp or cyclist shoots himself in leg accidentally while practicing quick loading in a mirror... :eek:

Originally posted by D*Alex
What I find amusing is this: Not even the gun nuts on this board can challenge my observation about the uselessness of carrying a firearm while riding. There is no way of justifying carrying a gun on a bike, so they resort to ad hominem attacks, like this one:

I don't think anyone that carries a weapon while riding actually contemplates the drawing and firing of that weapon while pedaling. I don't actually see much value in shooting while riding either, just pedal fast as he** and hope to distance the threat. That said, but not likely, shooting while moving to save a life is possible, it lessens accuracy and bring collateral damage into consideration. I wouldn't carry my normal .45 or .357. I'd carry a PPK/S .380 auto, 7/1. Or, maybe a S&W .38 hammerless.

I believe those speaking are referring to when their not on their bikes...while touring, walking and they find themselves in bad situation, or night time, camping, etc.

I would also think about what happens next, when the shooting is over, adrenalin is back to normal, and you have a pitiful body on the asphalt.

One will have to answer a judge's question - why have you blown away this guy? and convince a judge that this miserable cold corpse was a real threat. You may meet the "Are we supposed to belive this?" attitude, especially if he was a sonny of an influential person.

Or it may well turn out that this guy was from a crimianl underworld and you will have to tell his relatieves how this man died. Who knows what their reaction will be. Because one thing is to neutralize an attacker with, say, a club, and another with a glittering gun.

A bullet can be connected with the gun, by the way, if one thinks of running away from the spot.

Originally posted by Max
I would also think about what happens next, when the shooting is over, adrenalin is back to normal, and you have a pitiful body on the asphalt.

One will have to answer a judge's question - why have you blown away this guy? and convince a judge that this miserable cold corpse was a real threat. You may meet the "Are we supposed to belive this?" attitude, especially if he was a sonny of an influential person.

A bullet can be connected with the gun, by the way, if one thinks of running away from the spot.

FYI... here's some basics... If you're going to carry and use, carry your attorney's emergency phone number also.
If anyone finds they have to pull the trigger... don't shoot until your weapon is empty, shot until the threat of deadly force has subsided... Move away from the actual shooting seen slightly, ask any bystanders if they saw anything, get names & numbers. Stay close so officers can find you easily. Lay your weapon down at your feet, in the open, preserve the shooting seen so no others take anything, and the officers can retrieve it. Phone the police, tell them who you are, what and where the shooting happened, you were armed, but are not now, where you are and where the weapon is. Then immediately phone an attorney, and don't say anything until that attorney arrives. Keep your hands out of your pockets and stay calm.

The police have to gather evidence. Hopefully, the judge doesn't get into the picture because it's ruled self-defense. There are plenty of books covering this topic and make sure to review your local state laws regarding CC.

Garbear, it's a bit scary that you've already planned for your next shooting! :D

Seriously though, you offer some good advice in the event of this worst case scenario. :)

Originally posted by bac
Garbear, it's a bit scary that you've already planned for your next shooting! :D

So CA has an abundance of unsavory people always wanting something that isn't theirs, easy money or to victimize. :mad: I think a better words are forethought and preparation. Course, I am also well trained and I keep my skills are current. :) I have a broad understanding of CA law out of common sense protection. It's better to be safe and alive :) then sorry or dead. :( I am not advocating anything more then precautionary due diligence in caring and protecting ones life, family, home and property.

FYI...last year, not far from my home, gang members from LA followed a family member home to an upscale neighborhood. The father and son were in the garage, mother and daughter were in house...results...ugly:mad:



Seriously though, you offer some good advice in the event of this worst case scenario. :)

There's very little wiggle room when it comes to being victimized, raped, carjacked or robbed. Yet, these can be avoided by using some common sense. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time thinking it can't happen to you, walking around never looking anybody in the eyes; Or drive in the wrong lane down the street and don't have a clue what's happening around your auto or bike ... Victims have a profile that the bad guys seek out..:eek:

Guys!...
I did not want this to turn into a gun/anti gun thread. If you want to carry, and you do it within the guide lines of the law that's fine. It's your right. If you don't want to that's fine, that's your right.

I wanted to know if anyone has ever needed to use there weapon while on tour. So far no one has reported that they had. (That's good) My S. O. had concerns about Gypsy camping and the possibility of needing one. I tell her, yea it could happen but it is unlikely. So far the most dangerous thing on tour is sharing the road with cars.

I had not thought about mace or knifes. I do carry a folding saw, very sharp with big teeth and it will do quite a job on flesh... Trust me, I know. That I could use as a defensive weapon if needed.

So, has any one needed to use a weapon to protect themselves when touring? Gun, mace, knife or a sharp pointed stick?

Well I am sorry to see that this thread has degenerated into a anti gun thread.
D*Alex,
It appears that you cannot take a taste of your own medicine. As I recall a long time ago it is exactly attacks that you made not only at my opinion but my character as well. If you are incapable of withstanding the exact same treatment you give others than I suggest you alter you ways, if you are capapble of it.

Originally posted by bentbaggerlen
...I had not thought about mace or knifes. I do carry a folding saw, very sharp with big teeth and it will do quite a job on flesh...

No. You need a sharp knife to cut the tent fabric from inside in case of a night attack. It is for the emergency exit from the tent. You can not do it fast enough with a saw.

A stick shall not be necessarily sharp pointed. There is such a discipline. It is called Kendo. Any strong stick found near a campsite will do.

I used a CS spray couple of times against a dog. The second time it was not really needed. Now I take with me some dog chaw food and it solves the problem nicely. But that time CS got on my hands and into my son's eyes and spoiled the ride completely. We had to cycle home to wash.

There is no possible way to justify carrying a gun for protection while riding a bike. Firing from a moving bike is inaccurate and reckless, and a legally stowed gun will take too long to retrieve to be useful.


Of course that last sentence is false. More importantly, you, Alex, have no idea whether it's true or not. You want it to be true, but that's something different, now isn't it?

A moment's reflection will reveal that many scenarios could develop in which you needn't draw and fire a gun immediately. But we don't need to speculate. These things have happened. There are plenty of cases of joggers with concealed holsters, confronted by robbers with guns, who have nonetheless gotten the gun out and used it successfully. Cyclists have been confronted by would be attackers, or thieves, and have had the necessary time to flip open the holster. Women have carried guns in purses, and gotten access to them in time to save themselves from ****, robbery, or what have you. These things are all real. They've all happened. In fact, situations like these are not uncommon among civilian defensive gun uses. All anyone has to do is look at NRA's armed citizen column (all drawn from local newspaper accounts), many local newspaper accounts, or, if you regularly do this as I do, read police reports.

Bike police carry guns, notice, and not just for show. (And contrary to what you might imagine, it's possible to access a gun from a c.c. holster in time comparable to a snapped-shut open carry, police holster.)

And anyway, that things like this could happen should be obvious to any reflective adult. Just wake up and face reality, will you? Or better still, stop yelling at people about something you obviously don't have any experience with and know next to nothing about. What you imagine, like some boy thinking out loud with his friends, doesn't count as "science". Why you insist on exclaiming to everyone that your mind is made up about the uselessness of guns on the basis of no more than your tenuous speculations, ignoring actual evidence of gun use easily available to you, is a mystery.

Originally posted by Merriwether
[I]...Women have carried guns in purses, and gotten access to them in time to save themselves from ****, robbery, or what have you. These things are all real. They've all happened...

I am neither pro, nor con.

It seems to me, however, that an easy availability of guns may also create problems.

A gun may well facilitate a **** or a robbery if it is in evil hands.

Also it is clear that people who were on board of those aircrafts on 11SEP had not access to guns.

It is indisputable that a gun is a stronger weapon than an arrow and bow for that matter on a battle field. But it seems that it is not the perfect security solution in the real life.

We may well land in a situation as it had been centuries ago, when people walked over medieval cities with swords in sheath and with muskets over shoulder. It may become like a part of a city costume.

Is it really an ideal we shall aspire too?

More questions, than answers.