It may be, or it may not be. Does it advance the forum's topic, mandate, or reason for being? This forum is called, "Living Car Free". Saying "I can't be car-free because of x, y, z" has nothing to do with Living Car Free. On the other hand, "I would like to be car-free, but x,y,z seems to be stopping me, what can I do?" would be on-topic.




No. I mean to say that anyone who does not have a genuine interest in being car-free (entirely or partially) is not likely useful here and probably not making a positive contribution to this forum.

Skim through this thread, look at the many messages disparaging car-free people, saying some version of "I can't be car-free", etc. Do those messages advocate car-freeness? Do those messages help anyone become car-free? Do those message help those already car-free? Do those messages say anything we car-free types haven't heard before? If not, then in my opinion those message do not contribute to this forum and are thus off-topic.




You think everyone would like be be car-free? Really? I don't. I think most people are attached to their cars, and strongly resent any suggestion they not own one. What makes you think everyone would like to be car-free?

I am not talking about whether or not people are eligible to post in this forum, rather I am talking about the legitimacy of posts in this forum. Posts are on-topic if they are related to "Living Car-Free".




Well, I'll skip discussion or religion re: being punished for owning cars. ;) In environmental terms, I think we are all being punished for our car-oriented society, and very directly. As to why make excuses, simply because its human nature when confronted with a negative reaction to one's decisions or actions.




I disagree, I think many of the reactions from car owners toward the car-free are due to an attempt to "make themselves feel better". Similar reactions occur from couch potatoes toward bike commuters, and from overweight people toward those who have lost weight.

I say all this from my mindset, which is that forums are supposed to be useful. I realize not everyone shares that mindset, and for many these forums are just entertainment. I have other outlets for entertainment, when I read forums I want useful info, though-provoking discussion, and/or challenging ideas. If the posts in a forum/sub-forum do not, in general, stick to the forum's mandate then the forum is a waste of my time and a waste of time for anyone else looking for useful information.

Hope I explained this well, I've been writing business correspondence all day and the communication centres of my brain are threatening job action.

When you say you think the reactions from car owners toward the car-free are due to attempt to make themselves feel better makes you sound like you dont think your **** stinks. Dont forget,we all ride here.

[edited by moderator]

true. the pattern of discussion often goes like this: someone makes a generalizing statement about how great life is without a car. a few agree and then someone posts something about needing a car once in a while or all the time. then we all get derailed and end up talking about car ownership and why having one is a good idea, etc.

the truth is - car free individuals are a very small subset of the population. only in a few places in this country is it reasonsible to do so. the way we've decided to set up our societies means that the vast majority are, in fact, car owners. but that doesn't mean that every discussion has to be about car ownership. i actaully had the idea that this forum would be a break from all that - but it's basically become the car forum.
I agree with everything you wrote except at the end. Some forum posters dwell on the perceived problems of "car culture" and/or others' acquisition of material things (especially, but not exclusively motor cars) that the poster does not find "necessary." Often these political/social/economic "observations" have no connection to living the car free life, but are all about the failings, if not low moral standing, of those who don't share the posters' enthusiasm for associating bicycling with drastically different alternative lifestyles.

I agree with most of my car-free mates on this forum issue. Anyone who posts here to accuse this entire group of car-free people of all being smug liberal hippy moralizers who tell everyone else what to do is chopping at a phantom caricature. I speak personally here, but I went car-free for me, not for you, and so far as I've seen, most posters in this forum are the same - sensible and not telling you jack about how to live your life. Go live your lives, with or without cars. We don't care.

Some of you are like those guys who go into vegetarian forums and post about how meat is so great and how all the vegetarians are acting holier than thou for giving it up. Get over yourselves. This forum is primarily composed of people who celebrate living a simpler and car-free life, and not some place where massive cager and HitlerBu$h bashing goes on and on and on all the time where we're all pissed off at people who like cars while raging at the man.

If you just want to fight and argue, keep it in the Advocacy & Safety and Politics forums where people love that stuff, but don't bring your garbage here, thanks. You want to talk about ways of living car free or even car lite, or living simpler? Please do. You want to talk about how much you love cars so much you want a whole fleet of em? I don't think this is the best place. Please petition the moderators for a car worship/status quo vigilante forum. I promise I won't go in there and ask why you all don't go car free - it's none of my business and I don't give a damn. I mean, what kind of total loser would go into a forum he had no affiliation with and heckle people there over their tastes, just for a delightful day of bickering? Hmmm....Better not get too specific with that question.

NEWSFLASH: Most of us couldn't care less if you tattoo'd your arms with Ford and Chevy logos and worshipped Nascar at the beer altar from sunup til sundown. Posting how much you love cars is so completely unshocking that you shouldn't even wonder why nobody bothers to respond to it.

No ink and never drink beer. BTW,you responed.

Wow -- what the hell happened in this forum LOL?!

Anyway, I never felt overwhelmed when I had my truck (which was a '00 Ranger paid off in 2.5 yrs) or my old beater, I simply never used it and was too much of a cheapskate to spend even the bare minimum it cost to keep it running/licensed, etc. I made the conscious decision to have other transit options (mainly foot and bike) and save my little pennies like the tightwad that I am amongst other things. So, yeah...

Wow -- what the hell happened in this forum LOL?!

Anyway, I never felt overwhelmed when I had my truck (which was a '00 Ranger paid off in 2.5 yrs) or my old beater, I simply never used it and was too much of a cheapskate to spend even the bare minimum it cost to keep it running/licensed, etc. I made the conscious decision to have other transit options (mainly foot and bike) and save my little pennies like the tightwad that I am amongst other things. So, yeah...

Same when I was driving. I eventually quit though, and spent my car savings on a nice sailboat, but I never found owning a car to be particularly difficult to manage money-wise.

If you had to get rid of your car to get your life back,somethings wrong.

Yes, the thing that was wrong was the car.

I was losing more than 500 hours a year to car commuting -- the equivalent time of 12 and a half weeks of work. Now, instead, my commute time on the train is enjoyable, as I read good books and relax.

When I took my car out to the suburbs to work every day, I felt like I was in prison. On my breaks, there was never anything nearby to break up the monotony of the office park. Now I spend my lunch hour listening to free music at the Chicago Cultural Center or going to to museums or hanging out in Millenium Park or meeting up with friends and generally enjoy myself at destinations I can reach on foot.

When I drove, I spent money in ways that were inconsistent with my values. Given a choice between spending $2000 on a engine problem and spending it on my family, I'd rather spend it on my family. Given a choice between spending $3000 on replacing a worn-out transmission or spending it on four years worth of martial arts lessons, I'd rather spend it on the martial arts lessons.

When I gave up my car, I sacrificed boredom and monotony, and I gained control over all of the money that had once been going to car expenses. I'm much happier.

I dont think the car was the boredom and monotony,imo. Hey,it come down to being able to afford the thing to. Both mine are paid for and we both work so the ins is just that. BTW,i drive a grand total of 5K a year. If i lived someplace like NY,i wouldnt need a car and that would be cool,as long as my wife had one. LOL

[. . .]
NEWSFLASH: Most of us couldn't care less if you tattoo'd your arms with Ford and Chevy logos and worshipped Nascar at the beer altar from sunup til sundown. Posting how much you love cars is so completely unshocking that you shouldn't even wonder why nobody bothers to respond to it.
I think you hit on the solution to the problem right here. People who brag about car ownership on this forum, or who caricaturize us in an unflattering light, are deliberately trying to provoke inflamed responses and negative attention.

Whew...that was a long sentence. Let me rephrase it in only three words:

They are trolls!!!!!

Do not feed them!!!!!

I think you hit on the solution to the problem right here. People who brag about car ownership on this forum, or who caricaturize us in an unflattering light, are deliberately trying to provoke inflamed responses and negative attention.

Whew...that was a long sentence. Let me rephrase it in only three words:

They are trolls!!!!!

Do not feed them!!!!!
Uh Huh.

"We" want Lurkers, but only lurkers who will shower praise on "Us" and our assumption about the association of car-free with a higher moral standard that all should be striving for, and the assumption that living car free requires buying into a lifestyle of self denial and monk-like asceticism.

What to do about those who unlurk and tell "Us" unpleasant versions of reality that "We" don't like? Easy, become an ignoring monkey unfettered by the reality that others see.

Wow. I wont lurk into this unfriendly place again. Rag on the car owners but dam if its ok to go the other way,so be it,have it your way. Hope it doesnt snow anywhere you carless riders are. Like i said before,we all ride.

I think you hit on the solution to the problem right here. People who brag about car ownership on this forum, or who caricaturize us in an unflattering light, are deliberately trying to provoke inflamed responses and negative attention.

Whew...that was a long sentence. Let me rephrase it in only three words:

They are trolls!!!!!

Do not feed them!!!!!

I did not start this thread to cause trouble.
I just want people who can't be COMPLETELY car free to be AS car free as possible, including the monetary drain they incur. If someone makes a wise post about owning a car, why can't we just ignore them?

I did not start this thread to cause trouble.
I just want people who can't be COMPLETELY car free to be AS car free as possible, including the monetary drain they incur. If someone makes a wise post about owning a car, why can't we just ignore them?
That's what I meant by "do not feed them."

I don't blame you for starting this thread. For the most part it's been a good thread. So thanks.

I'm surprised at everyone's hurt feelings. If John Doe states an opinion or makes a claim and Joe Blow challenges or disputes what was said, we're just having a lively debate.

I'm surprised at everyone's hurt feelings. If John Doe states an opinion or makes a claim and Joe Blow challenges or disputes what was said, we're just having a lively debate.
No problem here with lively debate. Big problem with off-topic baiting and deliberately provoking others. I sure am glad I have an Ignore button so i don't have to look at most of the offensive posts.

No problem here with lively debate. Big problem with off-topic baiting and deliberately provoking others. I sure am glad I have an Ignore button so i don't have to look at most of the offensive posts.
Be Happy!

Wow. I wont lurk into this unfriendly place again. Rag on the car owners but dam if its ok to go the other way,so be it,have it your way. Hope it doesnt snow anywhere you carless riders are. Like i said before,we all ride.
Sure its friendly; just as long as you agree with the assumptions and premises of the self appointed discussion police. And aspire to be morally pure like them.

That's what I meant by "do not feed them."

I don't blame you for starting this thread. For the most part it's been a good thread. So thanks.
Thank goodness Herr Roody is available to decide what is, or is not good to discuss.

Wow I-Like-To-Bike, you really do have an axe to grind... Must be sharp by now.

Wow I-Like-To-Bike, you really do have an axe to grind... Must be sharp by now.
Hardly need an axe to cut to the chase on this. A butter knife gets right through the buttercup arguments.

The point being car free is fine for those who wish to live the simple life (especially avoidance of responsibilities for others) lifestyle that it entails for adults. It is counterproductive (for bicyclists, and bicycling advocacy) to associate promoting that lifestyle to the general public as the goal of bicycling advocacy. It is also counterproductive to have bicycling associated with so called advocates who rant about the poor (and morally deficient) lifestyle decisions made by the residents of "cager" culture.

I would be happy if the car free types, who believe their lifestyle choice places them on higher moral ground, disassociated their proselytizing for counterculture lifestyles from cycling.

You go along telling us how we are we believe we're holier than thou, while you come in discrediting every single car free soul through gross generalization about who we are without even knowing us. Sounds to me like you believe you're holier than us.

I really wonder why you're so bitter. Out of your many posts on bikeforums, I'd be curious to find just how many posts of yours have ever been helpful to cycling in general. Because as far as I recall, every post I've seen from you has been either condescending or disrespectful to this or that cyclist. It's like you make it your goal to catch every holier-than-thou post on this forum to defend your fellow man (or maybe it's something else you are defending?).

Lighten up man! Take a chill pill, and go ride your bike. Biking is what we all got in common here. Oh, and we're all human too... So we all have our beliefs, yours are right to you, ours are right to us.

On the other hand, I enjoy posts by others who are not carfree--FXjohn and expatriate com to mind.

Haha! Guess what? Sold my car today. We're moving in a few weeks anyway. So here's where I stand now:

With no car to get to work, I will stay at my current job one more week, and rely on others for transport there. I commuted a bit last year, but now that's it's close to 100 degrees every day, I'm not going to even consider it. Also, cycling would triple my commute time each way, and I really need the extra time for packing and other stuff. The good news is that the bike shop down the street will give me pretty much whatever hours I want, until I leave. So while it's still cool in the AM, I can go into my garage and pack stuff up. Once it gets too hot, I can ride down the street and work in shorts and a t-shirt or shop polo. I'll be home in time for dinner, and if it cools off, can go back to the shed. If it stays hot, I'll pack stuff in the house.

Rather than start a new thread, as no one really cares, I'll post some thoughts here as issues come up. The only one that will truly suffer is the dog, as we can't take him to the beach anymore.

[edit] By the way, some very good points have been brought up. But I don't think car-owners have any right to the animosity they show to some members here. I can think you're a nut or a hippie or whatever for not owning a car, but I cannot come here and insult you.

Why does everyone think a paid off vehicle is such a heavy burden to bear?
I have two paid off vehicles and just pay a miniscule amount of PLPD and license plate stickers, which are cheap because they are over ten years old. I ride my bike a lot too, but not everywhere.

I've actually never owned a car. I've never been able to justify the annual expenses, let alone the initial purchase charge. When we recently moved out here to suburbia, we looked closely at minivans. However, we found the financials to be a catch-22: High upfront cost for purchase + high annual operating costs (insurance, etc.) meant that we'd have to drive it a large number of miles to get a decent cost per mile. However, if we drove it more, we'd have to spend more on gas, and spend less time biking and walking, thus incurring increased health costs. So, instead we bought a few new bikes, bike trailer, and child seat - all for less than what we would have to spend annually to run and maintain the vehicle. (Not to mention the purchase cost)

These calculations were made in suburbia. Previously when we lived in Chicago, we never even considered a vehicle. Taxes and insurance were higher. Parking was more expensive. And there was the matter of shoveling the car out of the snow, dealing with traffic, etc.

On the other hand, when we first moved out here, I had a rental car for the first month, where the only thing I had to pay for was gas. (It was around $3/gallon then, and the car got about 28 miles/gallon). I drive the first few weeks, bought a bike, and then only drove the car once after that. In this case, the car was even 'cheaper' than the paid off car. However, it was still difficult to justify.

The psychological factor is a key point. If we own a car, we will have a greater liklihood of using it. If we don't, then we wont. If the day is miserable and rainy, we just put on the rain gear to go out. If we had a car, we would have probably just taken it. Since we don't have one, we don't consider the option, and make due without a problem.

Dude, from your post, you make it sound like car ownership was a purely financial issue for you. If it wasn't such a financial burden, you would have a car. Others on here may not see it as a burden to own a vehicle, but choose not to anyway. Do you see the distinction?

Which brings up a question I asked in another thread: Who is living car-free for the good of the environment/personal beliefs, and who is car-free for financial reasons?

Which brings up a question I asked in another thread: Who is living car-free for the good of the environment/personal beliefs, and who is car-free for financial reasons?
If there's one point that might be drawn from this long thread, it's that carfree works best for a person who is also into simple living. Both those factors work well with conservative finances and perhaps with a desire to minimize one's environmental footprint.

So maybe we are talking about a cluster of correlated personal preferences and lifestyle decisions instead of one single decisive factor.

Indeed.

As a lurker I feel the need to post my story because there has to be other people out there like me.

Background: I am the oldest of six kids. I learned early that if I wanted to go some where, I could ride my bike, walk, catch a ride with a friend, or schedule (informally) a car ride with my parents. I never lived in a town with public transportantion, rode a city bus for the first time when I was 22 years old, and have never been on a subway. I turned sixteen and bought cheap car. I started driving everywhere, including hauling siblings around and running errands for parents. Crashed car six months later and sold it to junkyard. Money from junk man goes to buy a Fuji MTB. I still get to drive parents vehicles, but have to pay my own insurance and keep my grades up. IF and a big IF their car is around, I can drive, otherwise I am on the bike. Save my quarters until 2nd year in college and buy another car. Now 34 years old and have owned 11 cars since then, including 2 right now with wife.

Point #1: I have grown up around cars as the primary means of transportion and did not consider any other options unless I had to.


Eyeopeners: In the winter of 1999 a co-worker tells me about a friend who doesn't own a car. Very amazed at the thought of not owning a car, especially because they made a choice to not have a car. Stopped me in my tracks, because I had never heard of such a thing. In the summer of 2005 a couple of expensive car repairs and gas goes over 3 dollars a gallon. I buy a 25.00 garage sale bike and start riding to work. I have missed it so much and start letting my car sit in the driveway. One day, then two, then three days it sits. October 05: find a web page about car free living http://www.blayleys.com/diary/entries/2005/index.htm and find BF a couple of months later.

Point #2 I am now aware that there are other options other than the car. I literally had never considered anything other than cars and all the trouble and expense along with them. Like death and taxes.


New direction?: I start thinking about where I am and where I want to go in the future. But where I am now is based on effort and prior decisions. Maybe I want a new direction. How would I do it? I post a few questions on the Carfree forum and do some serious lurking. I find out quick that being car free for me will take some effort, some changes and lots of planning. Changes that will not happen tomorrow. So I start to dream about a simple life with less responsibility.

Point #3 Most of my life has centered on owning a car, but now I might want to make some changes. I want to find out more information on being car free, but I don't know anyone who is. So I come here.


It's BS that people like me get flamed or belittled for asking (admittedly) stupid questions on the Car Free forum. I know that some are here just to pick a fight, but some are not. Please practice some understanding and patience with me and others like me as we try to learn the things you can teach us.
Thanks
MN Dan

Which brings up a question I asked in another thread: Who is living car-free for the good of the environment/personal beliefs, and who is car-free for financial reasons?Both, and more. I used to be a long-haul trucker, and it burned me out on driving permanently. I don't hate cars or drivers, I just hate driving.

...Eyeopeners: In the winter of 1999 a co-worker tells me about a friend who doesn't own a car. Very amazed at the thought of not owning a car, especially because they made a choice to not have a car. Stopped me in my tracks, because I had never heard of such a thing. In the summer of 2005 a couple of expensive car repairs and gas goes over 3 dollars a gallon. I buy a 25.00 garage sale bike and start riding to work. I have missed it so much and start letting my car sit in the driveway. One day, then two, then three days it sits...
Interesting! I had the exact same sequence of eyeopening events occur to me, except it was 1978 in Dallas, Texas. I was working with a mathematician newly arrived from the Pacific Northwest. Like everyone else in my department I considered him eccentric for not owning a car. The darndest thing is, the carfree idea sort of took root in my own mind over a period of time. Then the Iranian Oil Embargo happened, it got suddenly hard to obtain & pay for gas, I got a second hand bike & started commuting on it. I'd always enjoyed riding when I was young but as an adult never considered any alternative to a car. I rode more and drove less and at one point parked my burnt orange 1974 Gremlin V8 in the driveway for almost two years.

Everything was going pretty good until patc came in around post 20 and started talking about having no kids and kinda ragging on about overpopulation and it went down hill from there. A word on overpopulation. Look for Mexico to fill in the rest of the USA. I'm still trying to figure out how to buy $150 of food and get it home without a car? I dont think everybody can live next to a store.

You go along telling us how we are we believe we're holier than thou, while you come in discrediting every single car free soul through gross generalization about who we are without even knowing us. Sounds to me like you believe you're holier than us.
My remarks are not targeted to all who go or wish to be car-free.

They have been clearly aimed at those few who extrapolate, from their own limited experiences and lifestyle choices -
1. the ease with which the general public can replace ALL requirements for an automobile with bicycling while living a "normal" life; and/or,
2. the laziness/lower morals of the general public (derisivly called "cagers") who don't react positively towards the message broadcast by so-called advocates who resort to "cager" bashing political, social and economic rants to sell the appeal of bicycling.

Benny Ben, I suggest keeping your options open; after your child is born you may see things in a new light. Hope child and mother stay healthy.

Me to. Have no problem with being able to go carfree,pretty lucky if you can but downgrading those who are not kinda sucks.

It's BS that people like me get flamed or belittled for asking (admittedly) stupid questions on the Car Free forum. I know that some are here just to pick a fight, but some are not. Please practice some understanding and patience with me and others like me as we try to learn the things you can teach us.
Thanks
MN Dan

Its very much people like you that I hope to see in the LCF forum. After all, its not like I have a lot of questions about being car-free, never having owned one. My beef is with the off-topic posts written only to start fights, and contributing nothing to the subject.

If we had a bunch more lurkers start asking questions (no such thing as a stupid question!) this forum would be much better.

Everything was going pretty good until patc came in around post 20 and started talking about having no kids and kinda ragging on about overpopulation and it went down hill from there. A word on overpopulation. Look for Mexico to fill in the rest of the USA. I'm still trying to figure out how to buy $150 of food and get it home without a car? I dont think everybody can live next to a store.

:rolleyes: Oh please. Ragging on?
(Hey, at least it was on-topic.)

As a lurker I feel the need to post my story because there has to be other people out there like me.

Background: I am the oldest of six kids. I learned early that if I wanted to go some where, I could ride my bike, walk, catch a ride with a friend, or schedule (informally) a car ride with my parents. I never lived in a town with public transportantion, rode a city bus for the first time when I was 22 years old, and have never been on a subway. I turned sixteen and bought cheap car. I started driving everywhere, including hauling siblings around and running errands for parents. Crashed car six months later and sold it to junkyard. Money from junk man goes to buy a Fuji MTB. I still get to drive parents vehicles, but have to pay my own insurance and keep my grades up. IF and a big IF their car is around, I can drive, otherwise I am on the bike. Save my quarters until 2nd year in college and buy another car. Now 34 years old and have owned 11 cars since then, including 2 right now with wife.

Point #1: I have grown up around cars as the primary means of transportion and did not consider any other options unless I had to.


Eyeopeners: In the winter of 1999 a co-worker tells me about a friend who doesn't own a car. Very amazed at the thought of not owning a car, especially because they made a choice to not have a car. Stopped me in my tracks, because I had never heard of such a thing. In the summer of 2005 a couple of expensive car repairs and gas goes over 3 dollars a gallon. I buy a 25.00 garage sale bike and start riding to work. I have missed it so much and start letting my car sit in the driveway. One day, then two, then three days it sits. October 05: find a web page about car free living http://www.blayleys.com/diary/entries/2005/index.htm and find BF a couple of months later.

Point #2 I am now aware that there are other options other than the car. I literally had never considered anything other than cars and all the trouble and expense along with them. Like death and taxes.


New direction?: I start thinking about where I am and where I want to go in the future. But where I am now is based on effort and prior decisions. Maybe I want a new direction. How would I do it? I post a few questions on the Carfree forum and do some serious lurking. I find out quick that being car free for me will take some effort, some changes and lots of planning. Changes that will not happen tomorrow. So I start to dream about a simple life with less responsibility.

Point #3 Most of my life has centered on owning a car, but now I might want to make some changes. I want to find out more information on being car free, but I don't know anyone who is. So I come here.


It's BS that people like me get flamed or belittled for asking (admittedly) stupid questions on the Car Free forum. I know that some are here just to pick a fight, but some are not. Please practice some understanding and patience with me and others like me as we try to learn the things you can teach us.
Thanks
MN Dan
I'm glad that you came to see that owning a car (or not) is a choice; there is another side to the coin that is sometimes difficult to see. Nobody can make a free informed choice until they are aware of the options.

Whatever you decide about car ownership, I have respect for you because you were smart enough to grasp the whole picture, and you are carefully considering your options.

Dude, from your post, you make it sound like car ownership was a purely financial issue for you. If it wasn't such a financial burden, you would have a car. Others on here may not see it as a burden to own a vehicle, but choose not to anyway. Do you see the distinction?

Which brings up a question I asked in another thread: Who is living car-free for the good of the environment/personal beliefs, and who is car-free for financial reasons?
I think you missed one of the Dude's points:


The psychological factor is a key point. If we own a car, we will have a greater liklihood of using it. If we don't, then we wont. If the day is miserable and rainy, we just put on the rain gear to go out. If we had a car, we would have probably just taken it. Since we don't have one, we don't consider the option, and make due without a problem.

In my case, moral/political concerns are one pillar of my carfree lifestyle, financial reasons is an equally important pillar. The other two pillars are health/ exercise and fun/love of bikes.

My desire to be (as) carfree (as possible) mainly springs from a desire to do as little harm as possible, while still leading a productive, fulfilling (and yes -- responsible) life.

I'm not sure where that fits, exactly, within questions like on this recent poll:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=166449

But there I answered environmental, health-related, simplicity and other, the 'other' including both the moral element and the fun of cycling. I also answered financial, but that's really a side benefit for me.

One thing I've noticed since this forum started is that many carfree people think and plan very deliberately when it comes to major decisions. They usually weigh their options and consider different factors. Most of us are very far from being "irresponsible," as some have alleged.

Just sharing my story and .02 ...

I figured out pretty much that it takes one wage earner to keep a car going. Since my wife didn't have a very steady job situation I decided that we should give up one of our cars. Plus the fact that both were over 100,000 miles. We ended up buying a Saturn, trading in her old car. I donated my car to charity. This all happened in 2003. Now I bike to work or take the bus / train with my bike. Here in St. Louis it is very much autocentric. Slowly they have been making changes to make mass transit better. As well bike facilities are getting improved. It is a major leap just to give up one car to become a 1 car family. Thankfully we have found others that are one car families. So I don't feel so weird. But I love to bike. 2005 made me less and less like a weirdo cyclist. Drivers complained about gas prices and I road on just smiling! I have also latched onto the "simplicity movement" which fits in perfectly into cycling , tranist and "carless" living. All of us make choices everyday. Where we spend our money. I like being able to spend it more locally. I like not visiting so many chain stores. I like supporting small businesses. I like not driving here and there just to keep up with the "Jones". I won't force my lifestyle on anyone like I don't think people who are "carfree" should go around forcing people to get ride of their cars... Like slashing their tires or something. There are many decisions in life we have to make. Riding my bike puts me outside. Closer to people and to nature. I am able to stop and let a little girl cross the street to get to school where most drivers just forget that pedestrians have rights to travel. I am able to stop at a park and see a beautiful red tailed hawk as it circles above me. I am able to feel the wind on my face. Know more about changes in weather since it affects me more (don't have a nice warm or cool car to protect me). I have met more people through cycling and not driving a car. Kids I don't even know ask me why I am not riding my bike through there area anymore. I just smile. Cars can be useful tools but I think the balance in society is way off. We have elevated a mode of transportation that is a danger to all of us and made the best forms of transportation (biking / walking) harder for the avg. person due to the way streets / cities are designed. I think if you are a cyclist especially you will learn more about how much this society is focused on something that doesn't connect us to each other. It only segregates and causes pain. I am not a staunch environmentalist. I won't live in a Red Wood to proove a point. But the more we keep pulluting and make the car easier for people to use will only keep the problems growing (obesity, ashthma, fear, hatrid, pollution etc...). I love being part of the solution. Maybe we can each learn something from each other and not point fingers of blame. We are all on this big round ball we call Earth. Please keep your stones to yourself.

Keep Cycling,

Boy,i never knew the problems some people blame on the car. Cracks me up. Lets put it another way,stop getting cars and you put a heck of a lot of people out of work.

Boy,i never knew the problems some people blame on the car. Cracks me up. Lets put it another way,stop getting cars and you put a heck of a lot of people out of work.
Good! Working sucks BRAH!

Boy,i never knew the problems some people blame on the car. Cracks me up. Lets put it another way,stop getting cars and you put a heck of a lot of people out of work.
Did you buy that argument when the tobacco industry said it about smoking?

Why does everyone think a paid off vehicle is such a heavy burden to bear?
I have two paid off vehicles and just pay a miniscule amount of PLPD and license plate stickers, which are cheap because they are over ten years old. I ride my bike a lot too, but not everywhere.
Depreciation curve

Most brand new cars depreciate precipitously such that by the point a loan is paid off, the car is still heading downwards pricewise (so some people feel pressure to sell as soon as possible before it depreciates further). Those people sell to people like me who don't feel that that new car smell is worth $5,000 -$15,000 (the difference between a good 3-5 year old car vs a brand new one) :D

My only regret in buying this used car is that I bought one of the most stolen cars, live in an urban area and live in Massachusetts. Perfect driving record but my insurance is about $1400 a year (on a car thats not worth more than $10,000).

My car is not paid off but will be soon. Once that happens I am going to keep it as long as I can (it has about 80,000 miles and I drive less than 5,000 miles a year.

One thing I've noticed since this forum started is that many carfree people think and plan very deliberately when it comes to major decisions. They usually weigh their options and consider different factors. Most of us are very far from being "irresponsible," as some have alleged.

You're certainly among the more responsible thinking adults of society, unlike the typical overgrown kids who follow the mindless ease of the destructive convenience culture.

i still read this thread and wonder if when i'm 75 living in a tuscon retirement community cruising on my solar powered future bike to water aerobics if i'll be trying to get my other geriatric neighbors to be "golf cart" free.

oh wait i've just described my version of hell. hopefully i'll be kite boarding instead and on the cover of AARP

i still read this thread and wonder if when i'm 75 living in a tuscon retirement community cruising on my solar powered future bike to water aerobics if i'll be trying to get my other geriatric neighbors to be "golf cart" free.

oh wait i've just described my version of hell. hopefully i'll be kite boarding instead and on the cover of AARP
Feh. Keep cycling and at age 75, you'll pedal your bike down to the pub each day to swap stories of the "car age" with your septuagenarian cycling buds.

Feh. Keep cycling and at age 75, you'll pedal your bike down to the pub each day to swap stories of the "car age" with your septuagenarian cycling buds.
My dad has a friend who's 76 and still does the DALMAC ride (approx. 300 miles) every year and other long rides all over the country. He is a real inspiration to me. I plan to tag along on one of his training rides, now that I have a road bike up north. I hope he doesn't drop me!

You're certainly among the more responsible thinking adults of society, unlike the typical overgrown kids who follow the mindless ease of the destructive convenience culture.
Typical overgrown kids who follow the mindless ease of the destructive convenience culture? Would that be everybody, including all cyclists, not sworn to the car ownership free quest?

Umm, why does everyone keep saying the "simple" life when going car-free? I think it is a lot simpler to just jump in a car and go somewhere instead of taking note what the weather is doing and dressing appropriately, making a list (mental or paper) of places you want to go and planning the route to use the least distance, figuring out how you're going to carry what you need for those stops, and then going.

Bit of back story - I have had my licence since 1997. Unfortunately not in this country, so to get a car I need a licence - which will probably involve driver training because I don't have a car and haven't driven for 6 years. This also means my starting insurance will be around $3000. Also new/old car? A new one will have less problems but will cost more. An old one will be cheaper but require more work - and guess what? I can't work on it myself because I have never owned a car. I know basic things like flat battery (or tires) but anything more complicated I'll need a mechanic - and not only that, but I don't have the tools to work on a car anyway.

I also don't really understand why kids automatically mean you need a car. I have always ridden to school.
Of course, I was born in Zimbabwe where cars are a lot less common.

Oh, shokhead: panniers. Or a backpack. If you live further you can get a trailer. We just don't buy a lot all at once. (and we haven't got panniers yet)

Will I continue to live car-free? Maybe. I would like to travel more, and have started to look at bicycle touring...

...I think it is a lot simpler to just jump in a car and go somewhere...
Think of all the time/money investments and lifestyle commitments that are required to maintain that car. That's where the complexity is. The mechanics of turning the ignition key and operating the pedals is not the problem.