I live in the suburbs, an hour away from family, my job requires car travel, and sometimes you need to transport things larger than your bike can carry. I don't see how car-free is an option for someone that doesn't live in a major metro center and has a professional career.

I live in the suburbs, an hour away from family, my job requires car travel, and sometimes you need to transport things larger than your bike can carry. I don't see how car-free is an option for someone that doesn't live in a major metro center and has a professional career.

Well, that is a box of your own construction. There are a lot of suburbs and small towns where a car is not necessary, and IMO is actually easier than most "major metro center". The point is that it IS possible to make proactive choices that allow you to be free of the automobile, and with appropriate leadership and planning we can construct communities where automobile-free living is quite easy. This subforum is not for making excuses to hang on to the car - it is for discussing ways of achieving and improving car-free living.

I live in the suburbs, an hour away from family, my job requires car travel, and sometimes you need to transport things larger than your bike can carry. I don't see how car-free is an option for someone that doesn't live in a major metro center and has a professional career.

As I have stated before, what I advocate for is no personal use vehicles in urban centres.

There are very few things that can't be carried by bike. Six foot blinds? Strap 'em to your top tube. Work gear? Get a trailer (I cart around studio lighting and other photo gear to job sites in a trailer). Purchases too big to fit in your trailer? Have 'em delivered.

Of course being car-free does involve choices. such as not living in the suburbs, for example. Although I do know people who live out in the 'burbs and are car-free! Much of it boils down to managing your life and planning carefully. Nearly everyone who tell me "I can't be car-free" points out reasons that result from choices made in the past (e.g. home location). On the other hand every decision I have made in my adult life has taken into account our car-free status.

If you don't want to be car-free, that's your choice and I won't go knocking on your door to convince you otherwise - but then why are you posting here? If you do post in a "living car-free" forum, do expect some people to tell you ways that you could be car-free if you wanted to be.

I live in the suburbs, an hour away from family, my job requires car travel, and sometimes you need to transport things larger than your bike can carry. I don't see how car-free is an option for someone that doesn't live in a major metro center and has a professional career.
What do when you need to transfer something larger than your car will carry? Like a couch or queen size mattress, or a new hot water heater or bricks for a retaining wall?

I guess you figure it out! You come up with some kind of plan and then you carry out the plan.

Well, we figure it out, too, when we need to transport big stuff.

Well, that is a box of your own construction. There are a lot of suburbs and small towns where a car is not necessary, and IMO is actually easier than most "major metro center". The point is that it IS possible to make proactive choices that allow you to be free of the automobile, and with appropriate leadership and planning we can construct communities where automobile-free living is quite easy.

Ok, in that case, let's say I wanted to sell my car and ride exclusively. I'm going to list my constraints, I would like a reasonable and non-fanatical suggestion as to how I could sell my car and still maintain the quality of life I now enjoy. I really am interested, I'm not being a smartass.

1. My family lives an hour away from me in an area not serviced by any public transportation
2. I live three miles from work (and commute by bike now)
3. I own a dog who sometimes needs a trip to the vet
4. I work for a franchise and must travel to stores, vendors, and tradeshows 30% of the time. This often includes taking franchisees out to lunch
5. I live in Maryland. The weather changes every two seconds and we have ALL four seasons. I am not a sissy and rain doesn't melt me, but MD drivers in the snow is like watching the Special Winter Olympic Games.
6. Finding a bike rack here is like looking for a Beta VCR. They exist, but good luck finding them and they are bound to be in disrepair.
7. I am often involved in early morning meetings that require business casual attire. There are no shower facilities in the office. No biggie this time of year, but when it is 98 degrees and 100% humidity, I'm ripe.
8. Between job and personal life, I don't have time for an hour ride between events in the day.

This subforum is not for making excuses to hang on to the car - it is for discussing ways of achieving and improving car-free living.

Sometimes to do that you need to address excuses to hang on to the car.

I am genuinely interested to see how I could be car-free without quitting my job, never seeing family or friends that live out of easily biked distance, and still keep a dog.

I guess the crux of my question is how do you guys account for the choices of others, such as those that live in very rural areas, etc? Do you bike the 70 miles each way to visit a family member each week? Yes is a perfectly acceptable answer BTW.

Hi Salad. Welcome! :)

Those are legitimite concerns, and I think you'd have to look far to find anyone who would yell at you for using a car. It sounds like you're trying to minimize your footprint by cycling to work, and we're all A-OK with car-lite folk and commuters around here (I think, but don't quote me).

I can tackle a few of those things:

1. Drive (yes, a car), ride, or move. This is up to you and I won't try to convince you otherwise to do whichever. I now live 3000 miles from my family nucleus, so I have to take a plane.
2. Three miles is an easy commute. I used to do 7 miles in snowy Buffalo on a daily basis.
3. Dogs can be put into the same kinds of trailers you see people toting their kids around in.
4. This is again a personal choice. If you're okay ethically with that much driving, then do it. If not, find another job.
5. There are people in much worse places doing winter commutes. I thought Buffalo was bad, but I've seen people in upper Canada who put me to shame. There are many posts about how to handle this in the commuting forum.
6. Internet shopping is good stuff for things like this.
7. It's 98 degrees and 100% humidity in the early morning? Hrmm... Sinks can do a good job of a wash-up, believe it or not, but the healthier you are, the less ripe you will be on these rides.
8. Do what you can. Car-lite, and even thinking about ways to minimize your consumer footprint makes you a swell fella.

Good luck, and again, welcome. By the way, I agree with your statement about addressing excuses to hang onto a car.

Very mature, appreciated response. I do my part where I can, but I think without making changes in my life I personally don't feel are worth it (as in quitting a job I love and have worked hard to get a foothold and industrywide respect in and not seeing my family regularly whom I am very close to) I will be keeping the car. I already drive a car that gets well over 30 mpg without being boring (MR2 Spyder), bike for most errands and commutes when my day doesn't involve carting clients around or visiting stores that are an hour or more drive away, and generally try to limit driving to when it is required for one reason or another.

But to those of you that live in areas and work in careers that allow it, more power to you.

6. Internet shopping is good stuff for things like this.

I was actually referring to a safe secure public place to lock up a bike, I have a Saris Bones rack that is just peachy for transporation.

Ok, in that case, let's say I wanted to sell my car and ride exclusively. I'm going to list my constraints, I would like a reasonable and non-fanatical suggestion as to how I could sell my car and still maintain the quality of life I now enjoy.

Let me try a few...

1. My family lives an hour away from me in an area not serviced by any public transportation

How often do you visit them? Rentals, or a cab for the last leg of the trip, may work out well. Unfortunately you are sometimes stuck with the choices of others! Hmm, could they pick you up part-way?


2. I live three miles from work (and commute by bike now)

Good for you!

3. I own a dog who sometimes needs a trip to the vet

Two cats, one dog, one leopard gecko, one mistery rodent. See this thread: Car-Free Challenges and Solutions (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=167941)

4. I work for a franchise and must travel to stores, vendors, and tradeshows 30% of the time. This often includes taking franchisees out to lunch

I have always believed that if a company wants you to travel by car, they should provide the car! I can't really help there, beyond suggesting that this is something to negotiate with your employer.

5. I live in Maryland. The weather changes every two seconds and we have ALL four seasons. I am not a sissy and rain doesn't melt me, but MD drivers in the snow is like watching the Special Winter Olympic Games.

I doubt the weather is much worse than Ottawa! I have been cycling for most of my trips all winter, and using public transit for some. I also use the "park and ride" (ride and ride?) concept - cycling to the nearest rail station, and using that to get downtown.

7. I am often involved in early morning meetings that require business casual attire. There are no shower facilities in the office. No biggie this time of year, but when it is 98 degrees and 100% humidity, I'm ripe.

Do a search of the communting forum, many great tips there on how to dress.


I guess the crux of my question is how do you guys account for the choices of others, such as those that live in very rural areas, etc? Do you bike the 70 miles each way to visit a family member each week? Yes is a perfectly acceptable answer BTW.

I am sure some people do, but I don't. My family is either very close, or far enough away that train/plane make more sense than driving. I have had some close friends move out of town, and I considered that a "goodbye". I still see them when they pop into town, but I am not making major lifestyle decisions based on how/where others chose to live.

Very mature, appreciated response.

Thanks. Contrary to how a certain poster around here would paint it, the great majority of us are polite and sensible to anyone who is genuinely interested in ways to cut down their car use, and - at least for my part - thrilled to meet new people who want to think about these changes.


I was actually referring to a safe secure public place to lock up a bike, I have a Saris Bones rack that is just peachy for transporation.

Ahh...that kind of rack. There are 3 schools of thought on this that I'm aware of, but probably a dozen more:

1. Talking to your higher-ups about stowing it away in the office.
2. Buying a bike that is functional but so unattractive that it can be stored outside locked to anything you can find, and that you won't mind losing too much if it does get picked apart or stolen outright. (Beater bike)
3. Literally buying more locks and security than you could possibly otherwise think necessary.

2. I live three miles from work (and commute by bike now)


That's better than 90% of the population already. As for other things, perhaps some aren't realistic without a car, but again that's a choice. These are the decisions we have to make when choosing our lifestyles. Nobody said we could have it all.

7. I am often involved in early morning meetings that require business casual attire. There are no shower facilities in the office. No biggie this time of year, but when it is 98 degrees and 100% humidity, I'm ripe.

Living in the tropics, and being a heavy sweater with no heat/humidity tolerance, I know that one. (I live in a climate where long-sleeve shirts aren't comfortable even in the AC at work.) My only suggestion is to get up with the farmers at 5-6 AM to use the cooler early morning hours, shower before leaving home, go slow on the way in to prevent working up much sweat, and then have a cool-down period when you get there before dressing for work. Not perfect, but certainly possible with planning.



8. Between job and personal life, I don't have time for an hour ride between events in the day.


From this I'd guess that being car-free would probably require majorly changing how you structure your time. You'll have to do less activities per day, and leave more buffer time between them. Good time to catch up on reading, or posting on bikeforums, BTW.

I live in the suburbs, an hour away from family, my job requires car travel, and sometimes you need to transport things larger than your bike can carry. I don't see how car-free is an option for someone that doesn't live in a major metro center and has a professional career.

You dont have to be sorry for not being able to be carfree even if some will try to make you feel gulity. Some can,some cant and some dont want to.

What do when you need to transfer something larger than your car will carry? Like a couch or queen size mattress, or a new hot water heater or bricks for a retaining wall?

I guess you figure it out! You come up with some kind of plan and then you carry out the plan.

Well, we figure it out, too, when we need to transport big stuff.

i've been working on my townhome on and off for two years doing upgrades, all without a car

instead of just doing things here and there, i schedule myself a "working weekend" and i'll rent a car for my working weekend to bring home a new toilet, flooring, tile, whatever.

home depot also rents trucks, or you can take transit there and cab home. i also have a great ace hardware a few blocks away. small things (nails/screws, small tools) are the same price as home depot, other things might be more, but even when i have a car i'm HAPPY to pay $1-2 more if it saves me an hour wandering around home depot

an added car free benefit, it forces you to plan and schedule, which is a benefit in all aspects of life.

i've been working on my townhome on and off for two years doing upgrades, all without a car

instead of just doing things here and there, i schedule myself a "working weekend" and i'll rent a car for my working weekend to bring home a new toilet, flooring, tile, whatever.

home depot also rents trucks, or you can take transit there and cab home. i also have a great ace hardware a few blocks away. small things (nails/screws, small tools) are the same price as home depot, other things might be more, but even when i have a car i'm HAPPY to pay $1-2 more if it saves me an hour wandering around home depot

an added car free benefit, it forces you to plan and schedule, which is a benefit in all aspects of life.


You mean if you own a car,you are not able to plan and schedule?

You mean if you own a car,you are not able to plan and schedule?

completely correct. 100% of the people that own cars are unable to think more than 5 minutes into the future and drive around empty big box parking lots burning gas for fun, and 100% of car-free folks are junior college professors who have life completely figured out.

oh and 2% of male car-free folks have a pony tail.

You dont have to be sorry for not being able to be carfree even if some will try to make you feel gulity. Some can,some cant and some dont want to.
Please inform us. Who on this thread tried to make saladshooter (or anybody else) feel guilty? I bet you won't find one!

[QUOTE=Roody]Please inform us. Who on this thread tried to make saladshooter (or anybody else) feel guilty? I bet you won't find one![/QUOTE

Are you kidding? A 1/4 of the threads are your a loser because if you really want to,you can be carfree. Come on. Again nothing wrong with being carfree,more power to ya but dont rag on if you say you can't.

Please inform us. Who on this thread tried to make saladshooter (or anybody else) feel guilty? I bet you won't find one!

Are you kidding? A 1/4 of the threads are your a loser because if you really want to,you can be carfree. Come on. Again nothing wrong with being carfree,more power to ya but dont rag on if you say you can't.

English please - and answer the question like a man. Point out examples from all these massive threads about how "everyone who isn't car-free is a loser" - particularly any post that says exactly that.

Roody, don't even bother. This guy's been a troll from page 1, although I find it funny how sensitive the anti-PC crowd has become. We all know how much they (say that they) hate victims.

Let's all play nice to this thread doesn't get locked.

Thanks.

Let's all play nice to this thread doesn't get locked.

Thanks.
Right, this a forum for a righteous community and don't muck it up with cold water posts. Let's all sing together:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter,-paul-&-mary/107820.html

English please - and answer the question like a man. Point out examples from all these massive threads about how "everyone who isn't car-free is a loser" - particularly any post that says exactly that.

Roody, don't even bother. This guy's been a troll from page 1, although I find it funny how sensitive the anti-PC crowd has become. We all know how much they (say that they) hate victims.

Thats right,lets go the the english please crap. Troll this,troll that. Stick that troll up your *****.BTW,how many posts do you have? I've said it once,i've said it twice,if you want to be carfree,goodie for you. We cant all be that way. I'm telling you,the more i read these threads,the more i understand why motorist think we are a-holes.

Thats right,lets go the the english please crap. Troll this,troll that. Stick that troll up your...
Chill out my brother. Let's all sing together. Remember WE are a COMMUNITY! The simple life IS the good life by definition and acclamation of the community spokesmen. AND the defined simple/good life mandates striving for non ownership of an automobile. It of course does not prohibit borrowing, renting or sponging the use of one for the same purposes from someone else who has made less worthy lifestyle choices.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1430/moneyforbeer3kg.th.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/my.php?image=moneyforbeer3kg.jpg)

Let's all play nice to this thread doesn't get locked.

Why should the thread be locked because some people won't play nice? Either discipline the problem posters, or leave the thread alone. Punishing all for the action of a few just sends the message that contributions to this forum are neither valued nor respected.

I don't see that a call for civil discourse in a public forum should be characterized as unreasonably idealistic (for example by the oblique reference to singing Kumbaya).

I don't see that a call for civil discourse in a public forum should be characterized as unreasonably idealistic (for example by the oblique reference to singing Kumbaya).
The reference must be too obique for some. The "reference" is to the expectation/assumption/demand that everyone who uses a bicycle instead of a car on occasions (or all the time) is singing from the same sheet of music, i.e. that ownership of an automobile is indicative/symbolic of a deficient lifestyle choice. A deficiency that can, and should, be corrected by all who use bicycles for transportation/utility purposes.

Okay this has to stop. If you have a problem with another member, handle it in PM. If this does not cease, this thread will be locked.
Phantomcow2
Forum mod

Thread reopened. Hoping that some posts relavent to the topic will come from this :)

You mean if you own a car,you are not able to plan and schedule?

completely correct. 100% of the people that own cars are unable to think more than 5 minutes into the future and drive around empty big box parking lots burning gas for fun, and 100% of car-free folks are junior college professors who have life completely figured out.

oh and 2% of male car-free folks have a pony tail.
I totally agree with jamesdenver. Most people who own a car are terrible at planning and the way jamesdenver describes it is so true, burning gas for fun in big box parking lots. That includes me, it's one of the biggest obstacles for me to going more car-lite.



Boy,i never knew the problems some people blame on the car. Cracks me up. Lets put it another way,stop getting cars and you put a heck of a lot of people out of work.

I am still a car enthusiast. I have been a local Nissan Enthusiasts Car Club member for awhile now and the web forum that I have been most active on was specific to my model of car. I've modded my car, know how to perform pretty complex maintenance on my car, and I still love cars. But I have realized something, as the Asian economies grow and their energy demands and material demands grow, neither the environment nor our fossil fuels will be able to support them and the current developed countries with a high standard of living. I truly belive that we're all gonna be forced to start "simple living" soon. I live in Alberta, the most oil rich region in North America, we have as many barrels of oil locked up in our oilsands as Saudi Arabia has in their underground reserves. However, there's is easily extracted and refined. I'm certain with near future demands that we'll go through my provinces reserves in no time as well, regardless of expense. Though the world economy may grow for a while yet, I believe living standards will average out among the nations of the world and eventually worldwide economic productivity will fall. That is, North America is goin' DOWN and you'd better like it. Excessive car culture only contributes to the rate at which this is going to happen. I hope you enjoy paying $5/gallon for gas in 3-5 years, chump. Your wages will not keep up with energy inflation since the U.S economy just won't grow that quick and will soon be declining. Things are bleak and your outlook, shokhead, is not good; technology will only do so much. No I'm not threatening you, but I'm pessimistic and I'm afraid I'm right.

In fact, I hope we more rapidly consume our nonrenewable energy reserves, because humans are idiots and most of us are unable to conceive any forethought and truly act on conservation to give future generations a chance. If we can run out of resources within one lifetime, then perhaps necessity will lead to real changes.

Alright, that's enough ranting for me for now. lol.... although I do enjoy painting doomsday pictures.

Edit: oops, I didn't read that last post from the mod and stayed offtopic. So as a response to the OP; I'll reply: in the future, we're all gonna be overwhelmed even if your car is paid for.

vacations? sure disneyland is fun, and you can rent a car for national parks. but a far more enriching experience is exploring big cities as a family.


Rent a car for national parks? Are you insane? Cant even begin to experience them until you can smell and feel them. Havent you read Edward Abbey?

wow- i will never come to this forum ( living car free) again.
I started to ask why but i guess that would qualify as "stupid question." :D

The repair costs are incredible. If you're putting alot of miles on an older car, the repair man is walking away with your retirement fund. I was at the Sears repair center and was numb at all the plastic being melted to pay for those $400.00 dollar bills.

Insurance in a major city is a total ripoff. They want $1200.00 dollars a year for ten year year old vehicle and it's even more if your male and under 25. You can't report minor fender benders and breakins to your car or the insurance goes sky high.

To top it off, tickets in any city are handed out like candy. Large and small cities survive off parking and traffic tickets so the motorist is actually subsidizing local governments. I used to pay $400-600 dollars a year on parking tickets

ummm.. parking tickets, i mean, when i park at a meter that i don't happen to have enough change to pay for the time i know i'm going to take, i take the chance that a parking maid will ticket me. I mean, it's pretty up front, it's not like any cities I know of are going around giving people parking tickets when they aren't deserving of it?!

parking tickets are a $12,000/day business for the city of columbus

Rent a car for national parks? Are you insane? Cant even begin to experience them until you can smell and feel them. Havent you read Edward Abbey?

to drive TO them, not IN them. my local bus doesn't go to the trailheads of Rky Mtn nat'l park, or Arches in moab utah, or Mesa Verda -- and although it would be a great bike ride, it wouldn't leave much time for hiking, (i'm alreay giving my low-altitude visiting relatives a workout)

i find it laughable when I'm at a park and I see these gigantic tour buses cruising the park roads. "experience nature from an air conditioned coach". actually the same applies for touring a city too. how much of Paris or Denver are you really going to experience snapping pictures through glass?

on that note i like how Zion Nat'l Park in Utah bans cars from the inside of the park, I wish more parks had the "shuttle" concept.

http://www.nps.gov/zion/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/01/AR2005070100998_pf.html

I found the insurance and repair costs to be pretty onerous. But really I just find that cars don't provide much value for the expenditures. They don't provide exercise or fun, and I was never challenged to shave a few seconds off my commute time when I drove. Cars smell funny and they start wars, problems that don't occur with bikes.

Basically, I feel good when I ride a bike and I feel bad when I drive a car. How many dollars and cents does that add up to?

That's just me. I honestly wish you continued success with your autos. It sounds like you have a system that works well for you. :)


If I lived in a huge city or in the middle of nowhere with nothing but straight, flat roads, I'd completely agree with you.
Luckily, I live in Scotland, drive a '91 Golf GTI and have some of the best twisty roads on earth not five minutes from me. Exercise and fun? Yes - if you count mental exercise - road conditions are changing all the time - and fun? Trust me, giving it ultimate death on the Lecht road at 3am with the sun coming up is f*cking amazing...and an experience that will stay with you forever.