Why so overwhelmed if your car is paid for?

[FXjohn]

Why does everyone think a paid off vehicle is such a heavy burden to bear?
I have two paid off vehicles and just pay a miniscule amount of PLPD and license plate stickers, which are cheap because they are over ten years old. I ride my bike a lot too, but not everywhere.

[Fillanzea]

Insurance. I believe that not all states have mandatory liability insurance, but it can be a real pain if you're young or not an experienced driver. Parking, in some cities--you can pay $200 a month just for a place to leave your car at night...

[va_cyclist]

...insurance, gas, oil changes, maintenance, repairs, state inspections, state registration, county registration, personal property tax, depreciation, garage space, parking, tolls, car washes...

[FXjohn]

car washes..<chuckle>

[ajay677]

car washes..<chuckle>

Yep. R.I.P. Rust In Peace

[Johnny_Monkey]

Clothes for your car.

[shokhead]

I like cars,just went to the car show.

[royalflash]

Why does everyone think a paid off vehicle is such a heavy burden to bear?
I have two paid off vehicles and just pay a miniscule amount of PLPD and license plate stickers, which are cheap because they are over ten years old. I ride my bike a lot too, but not everywhere.

You could look at it like this: how much money would you have now if you had invested (wisely not in dot coms) the money you spent 10 years ago and kept adding the running costs and loan repayments etc.

Instead you have two 10 year old vehicles that are depreciating as I type.

Some people would rather have the cash thats all. You might prefer to have had the vehicles.

ps. I also have a motor vehicle but I don't like it and only drive it when forced to by my family (part from when I drive to the ski area or to the trails to do MTB) :o .

[Dahon.Steve]

The repair costs are incredible. If you're putting alot of miles on an older car, the repair man is walking away with your retirement fund. I was at the Sears repair center and was numb at all the plastic being melted to pay for those $400.00 dollar bills.

Insurance in a major city is a total ripoff. They want $1200.00 dollars a year for ten year year old vehicle and it's even more if your male and under 25. You can't report minor fender benders and breakins to your car or the insurance goes sky high.

To top it off, tickets in any city are handed out like candy. Large and small cities survive off parking and traffic tickets so the motorist is actually subsidizing local governments. I used to pay $400-600 dollars a year on parking tickets

[FXjohn]

The repair costs are incredible. If you're putting alot of miles on an older car, the repair man is walking away with your retirement fund. I was at the Sears repair center and was numb at all the plastic being melted to pay for those $400.00 dollar bills.

Insurance in a major city is a total ripoff. They want $1200.00 dollars a year for ten year year old vehicle and it's even more if your male and under 25. You can't report minor fender benders and breakins to your car or the insurance goes sky high.

To top it off, tickets in any city are handed out like candy. Large and small cities survive off parking and traffic tickets so the motorist is actually subsidizing local governments. I used to pay $400-600 dollars a year on parking tickets


I guess i am lucky then. If i buy my vehicle used...there is not much more depreciation to be had.
I don't have inspections, garage fees, or tolls. I change oil twice a year..that might cost 25 dollars.
In the last 6 years, i have paid 700 dollars about every three years for repairs. That's on both cars.
I also save 15% of my income already and pay extra principal on my mortgage, so I am saving lots of money. It just goes to show you, YMMV depending on where you live. i guess i have it pretty good.

[FXjohn]

Clothes for your car.


Just hats <see picture>
:)


http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d19/FXjohn/DSC00252.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d19/FXjohn/DSC00252.jpg

[timmhaan]

a good solid car that's paid for doesn't have to cost a lot. hell, i had an old honda civic that i paid $75 a month for insurance and about $30 in gas (mid 90's prices). changed the oil, filters, etc. myself. never needed repair (lucky) so i hardly spent anything on it. people spend more for cell phone plans than i did for that car. but that was in spacious arizona. take that same car to new york city and it would be a huge burden. more than it's worth.

[shokhead]

Pretty tough to take my kids to soccer games.pick them up at school when it rains, go food shopping,vacations,ect without a car.

[jamesdenver]

my car was paid for when i sold it. i lowered my insurance to liability only (p/t driver), then i let insurance lapse as i never drove - and didn't renew registration.

i figured i better sell it rather than get myself in trouble. plus now i don't have to deal with insurance, reg. gas, repair, parking, potential traffic tix.

i love biking/bus/walking around, and when i need to i use cab, or rent car for out-of-town trips.

i can't see myself ever buying a car again, even if it's cheap. if i ever took a job for a year or so where a car was an absolute MUST, i'd just rent one for $200-$400 a month.

of course my lifestyle helps, i'm a city person, enjoy traveling to other cities, and the only time i really need a car is when i go skiing in the mountains, or do a road trip out west in utah or nevada, and that's when it's actually FUN to drive, and not a huge aggravation

[jamesdenver]

Pretty tough to take my kids to soccer games.pick them up at school when it rains, go food shopping,vacations,ect without a car.

my comment to all this is become a one car family if not already. a little prep work/scheduling and planning makes significant savings.

and i walked home from school in the rain/snow, (in the 1980s), we had the wood paneled station wagon for groceries, but my grandma and great aunt lived downtown (Grand Rapids), and when i visited we had no problem walking for the farmers market and grocery store back then. (and they were 70s 80s at the time!)

vacations? sure disneyland is fun, and you can rent a car for national parks. but a far more enriching experience is exploring big cities as a family. NY, Chicago, San Fran, Mexico City. are great walkable cities and cool subways, and tons to do.

No not joking, Mexico City is extremely family friendly, (as are most mexicans), amazing museums, great zoo, day trips to pyramids and great food.

[Dahon.Steve]

Pretty tough to take my kids to soccer games.pick them up at school when it rains, go food shopping,vacations,ect without a car.

Some of my neighbors have kids and do all those things and they don't have a car. And yes the kids do go to school and the family buys its food like everyone else.

[Roody]

I found the insurance and repair costs to be pretty onerous. But really I just find that cars don't provide much value for the expenditures. They don't provide exercise or fun, and I was never challenged to shave a few seconds off my commute time when I drove. Cars smell funny and they start wars, problems that don't occur with bikes.

Basically, I feel good when I ride a bike and I feel bad when I drive a car. How many dollars and cents does that add up to?

That's just me. I honestly wish you continued success with your autos. It sounds like you have a system that works well for you. :)

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Pretty tough to take my kids to soccer games.pick them up at school when it rains, go food shopping,vacations,ect without a car.
That's why all the good ideas on this forum should be taken with many grains of salt by people responsible for families. Urban childless healthy adults with very limited transportation needs have an altogether different set of requirements than people responsible for working at a job and taking care of/transporting dependents.

[budster]

I'd also find it hard to justify giving up my car for purely financial reasons.

$25 a month for insurance (yes, NC rules!).
About the same for gas (I don't drive much).
$20 a year in property tax.
Maybe $25 for two oil changes.

Throw in $300 for repairs and we're up to a whopping one grand. At this point, that's still cheaper than renting a car when I need one (mainly to transport elderly relatives). I could easily end up spending more this year on my bikes.

I got the thing ('92 Taurus) used 10 years ago and paid cash. I almost hate to say it here, but I kind of...like the thing. I do feel better the less I drive it, if that helps. :)

[patc]

and i walked home from school in the rain/snow, (in the 1980s)

Don't you know? Kids today melt or something. If poor little precious had to get wet, then mommy and daddy would feel all guilty about neglecting the poor kid (as opposed to parking the kid in front of a video game all night, which is perfectly fine, of course :rolleyes: ).

We are bringing up a generation of wimps. The only bright side is that the next generation will be so weak and unhealthy that they will all die young, thereby solving the global overpopulation crisis.

[FXjohn]

only bright side is that the next generation will be so weak and unhealthy that they will all die young, thereby solving the global overpopulation crisis.


You could go ahead and start with yourself.
Jump into a rendering vat, turn yourself into catfood, do your part against overpopulation.

[patc]

You could go ahead and start with yourself.
Jump into a rendering vat, turn yourself into catfood, do your part against overpopulation.

I have done my part, I am child-free and intend to stay that way. I made that decision long ago for a variety of reasons, one of them being a wish to NOT contribute to overpopulation.

[FXjohn]

I have done my part, I am child-free and intend to stay that way. I made that decision long ago for a variety of reasons, one of them being a wish to NOT contribute to overpopulation.


Same here, no children either.
Overpopulation-the problem no one ever wants to talk about.

[Johnny_Monkey]

I have done my part, I am child-free and intend to stay that way. I made that decision long ago for a variety of reasons, one of them being a wish to NOT contribute to overpopulation.


I applaud your stand. I believe in the same thing but my wife doesn't. We may have kids eventually but I'm hoping we won't be able to.

[jamesdenver]

children already are:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=diabetes%2C%20type%202%2C%20children&sa=N&tab=wn

(not to be confused with type 1 DB, which is completely different)

one reason i live in an older area downtown is that i AM child-free (not childless), and fully support the concious desicion to not raise kids, and no single person of couple should feel odd or out of place in society because of it.

but should an odd sit-com situation arise where i take in a kid and raise him/her. there's four great hospitals with pedatriac offices within a mile of me, three playgrounds within a few blocks, two parks, elementary/middle schools, and he/she would be the most well behaved five year old at starbucks reading baby einstein while i sip latte and work from my laptop. hey i've babysat my nephew for the day and we got around fine without a car. (not to the hospital thankfully)

BUT - it comes back to the way our cities are designed. suburbs versus regular grid neighborhoods. i don't live in a high rise with shops below me, (like anti-city folks think new urbanists are forcing on everyone). i live in a regular house, in a grided street, with grocery/hardware/misc stores places within a reasonable walk. i DON'T live and will never live in a windy circle street ville area where i face the back of a big box store, but have no way of getting to that store (barring pole vaulting a fence via a trench)

THAT's what makes it easy or hard, is the way streets and shopping are designed in proportion to the person. walking across the parking lot of several big box stores in the exurbs is the equivalant of a 6-7 block walk in my neighborhood, which provides me with all the same services, plus seeing neighbors, trees, squirrels, etc. (and it's not more expensive where i go).

back to reality, i'm late for my skydiving massage...

[Brian]

Don't you know? Kids today melt or something. If poor little precious had to get wet, then mommy and daddy would feel all guilty about neglecting the poor kid (as opposed to parking the kid in front of a video game all night, which is perfectly fine, of course :rolleyes: ).

We are bringing up a generation of wimps. The only bright side is that the next generation will be so weak and unhealthy that they will all die young, thereby solving the global overpopulation crisis.

It must be really easy to generalize if you're not a parent yourself. Too bad your folks didn't share your views on children.

Back on topic, I don't understand what the fuss is about either. If you're a mature driver with no tickets or claims, insurance can be downright cheap. I've always paid cash, so I've never had a monthly car payment either. I don't generally park anyplace where I need to pay for parking, so that's not a worry. And parking tickets are right up there with speeding tickets - don't do the crime, and it costs you nothing. Oil changes in the US are less than the cost of dinner for two, so that's no big deal. And I can do most repairs/maintenance myself. I never saw having 3 cars at once a burden. My costs per month for insurance for all 3 was about $80/month. Petrol use varied, but since I drove the most economical one most days, that was hardly an issue.

[Artkansas]

Same here, no children either.
Overpopulation-the problem no one ever wants to talk about.

I've never met anyone who contributed to overpopulation; neither did their kids. It's only people in far away countries that cause overpopulation, didn't you know that?


And while I admit that I am part of the problem of overpopulation, at least I haven't made things worse by spawning.

[jamesdenver]

It must be really easy to generalize if you're not a parent yourself. Too bad your folks didn't share your views on children.



it is easy to generalize, and it's ok to generalize about general things, like shifting behaviors in society. i don't think being a parent needs to be a prerequisite to observing behavior.

i alert, observant, and notice things. when i chat with parents in my workplace and they discuss nine activities or sports events needing to be done in five days, i can GENERALIZE that's overscheduling children, sacraficing family time (dinner/homework/together time). picking up a kid from school at 4, eating fast food in the car and rushing to such and such every day does not make for a healthy life. being constantly busy does not equal enriching yourself and growing as a child.

it's only been 10-15 years since i was doing the same thing. i had little league, a church group, and piano lessons (yes i was a huge nerd and sucked and baseball, even t-ball), but i turned out fine.

at thy gym here at work around 3pm i work out with a lady who is CONSTANTLY on the phone with her kids - like every 10 minutes!! and she told since the weather was nice this week she was "forcing" them to walk home from school. we had a good laugh as i recalled the snowbanks in the church parking lots i'd climb over to get home (which was only .5 mile). but on a dark michigan afternoon at 3:30 it seemed like 10 miles. no my mom didn't pick me up, i didn't have a cell phone, no strangers abducted me, and everything turned out fine.

so while not directed at anyone here, i can generalize that kids are becoming lazy, car dependent, and developing attitudes based on entitlement rather than hard work.

p.s. i'll throw in i had a paper route at 13, and only on the most miserable days did my dad drive me around, so i learned to appreciate when someone helped me out, and not expect it on a daily basis

just my 2 cent....... no ill words intended

[jamesdenver]

I applaud your stand. I believe in the same thing but my wife doesn't. We may have kids eventually but I'm hoping we won't be able to.

respectfully i'd bring it up right now - open and honest - and both move forward based on that.

better to breakup with your wife and have some misery between you, than add kids and make a lifetime of regrets between a family

visit some child free support groups for advice.

[patc]

It must be really easy to generalize if you're not a parent yourself. Too bad your folks didn't share your views on children.

Nice, feel better now?

[shokhead]

Don't you know? Kids today melt or something. If poor little precious had to get wet, then mommy and daddy would feel all guilty about neglecting the poor kid (as opposed to parking the kid in front of a video game all night, which is perfectly fine, of course :rolleyes: ).

We are bringing up a generation of wimps. The only bright side is that the next generation will be so weak and unhealthy that they will all die young, thereby solving the global overpopulation crisis.

Your a weener.

[af895]

Why does everyone think a paid off vehicle is such a heavy burden to bear?
I have two paid off vehicles and just pay a miniscule amount of PLPD and license plate stickers, which are cheap because they are over ten years old. I ride my bike a lot too, but not everywhere.

FXjohn,
In Ontario, there are stringent pollution control requirements on private vehicles. This adds to the cost of maintenance - you can't just let stuff slide.

I was paying $75/mo. for liability-only insurance when mine was registered. That's just to have it sit in a driveway.

Add fuel at $0.90/liter (about $3.60/gal).
Maintenance - "whatever breaks next." (and I have a reliable car that's relatively cheap to maintain)

In this city, you can buy a bus pass for $68/mo and our bus system is fantastic. It made little sense for me to keep the car unless I had a job that required it, despite the fact that it was paid off.

[Johnny_Monkey]

respectfully i'd bring it up right now - open and honest - and both move forward based on that.

better to breakup with your wife and have some misery between you, than add kids and make a lifetime of regrets between a family

visit some child free support groups for advice.


Don't worry I have. Lots of times. We've only been together for 11 years.


What is a 'child free support group' and why would I want to visit one?

[Brian]

Nice, feel better now?

Not really. I hate taking shots like that at anyone, especially another photographer. But my wife is nearly 40, and has never had a license. Only one of my kids rides a bicycle on a regular basis. The rest of them walk. A lot. We have a PS2, and in the rare occasions that it gets used, it's either the kids playing together (harmony is good) or me against one of the kids. They read a lot, and take turns on the internet doing school research or chatting with friends from around the world. They are not the fat and lazy children you describe, and would not appreciate the generalizations you have made. Does your partner want children?

[FXjohn]

FXjohn,
In Ontario, there are stringent pollution control requirements on private vehicles. This adds to the cost of maintenance - you can't just let stuff slide.

I was paying $75/mo. for liability-only insurance when mine was registered. That's just to have it sit in a driveway.

Add fuel at $0.90/liter (about $3.60/gal).
Maintenance - "whatever breaks next." (and I have a reliable car that's relatively cheap to maintain)

In this city, you can buy a bus pass for $68/mo and our bus system is fantastic. It made little sense for me to keep the car unless I had a job that required it, despite the fact that it was paid off.


Living in the city as you do, not owning a car is much more of an option than where i live.
Another point is that in Canada you have some vehicles available with better mileage that i can't buy here.
With modern cars and fuel injection, they are pretty easy to keep running clean and pass emissions.
My toyota would be old enough to not require a high level on the other hand.

[patc]

Not really. I hate taking shots like that at anyone, especially another photographer.

Then why do it? You felt forced to or something? In the end, we all do what we want.


But my wife is nearly 40, and has never had a license. Only one of my kids rides a bicycle on a regular basis. The rest of them walk. A lot. We have a PS2, and in the rare occasions that it gets used, it's either the kids playing together (harmony is good) or me against one of the kids. They read a lot, and take turns on the internet doing school research or chatting with friends from around the world. They are not the fat and lazy children you describe, and would not appreciate the generalizations you have made.

Did I make any comments about YOUR family? You might want to look up "generalization" before you decide to make snarky comments. While you're at it, you could also look up stats on childhood obesity and other such problems.


Does your partner want children?

Which one? My life-partner has a half-brother and half-sister much younger than him, and basically feels he got the whole "bring up kids" thing already. We decided kids would not be in our future when me met 14 years ago, and while he was not as adamant about it at the time, he has become much firmer on that as time has passed. My lover, on the other hand, was very clear when we first met six years ago that he hated kids, so that discussion was brief! Of course this is completely irrelevant to the discussion here (which is also largely irrelevant to the first post, so fair enough).

[GGDub]

Wow, there's some serious holier-than-thou going on here. Here's the bottom line on this subtopic, we will all get old and retire. Without a younger generation behind us to keep the economy going, then we won't have retirement savings which means we will starve. Its cool to not want kids, there's a helluva a lot of responsibility and lifestyle changes that go with it. No one should ever feel guilty for feeling that way. However, if you do decide to have children and don't want to contribute to a population increase, have two and your net contribution to the human population will be zero. Of course, if you're a polygamist you can have as many children as you have wives +1 and your net contribution will be zero. And hey, if you want your net contribution to population to be greater than zero, that's your bag.
None of us in the developed world have a right to lay blame with what's wrong with the planet since one of our most energy efficient means of transportation (bicycles) still has a large negative impact on the planet.

[Brian]

Dub - well said. (or typed)

[brokenrobot]

It just goes to show you, YMMV depending on where you live. i guess i have it pretty good.

Indeed you do. Contrast with my ex-car: also paid off, but it cost me $1450 every six months to insure (and that's with a clean record - that's just the cost of a newish car well-insured in NYC, largely as a result of high theft rates and high insurance-fraud rates in the city) plus $180/month for overnight off-street parking. Over three years, I paid three $500 deductables for repairs to damages done while the car was parked streetside, plus three $155 parking tickets.

So, on top of the cost of the original purchase, keeping a car (a Honda Civic) in NYC cost me $17,145 over the course of three years, without accounting for fuel, oil changes, tire rotations, etc.

[Roody]

IMO, the real issue is why do we live in cities where it's difficult to raise children without a car. It doesn't have to be that way. Our cities are planned for cars, not for people, and that's the whole problem in a nutshell. Where do they build schools these days? Out in the country, almos all the time. Same with churches, the types of stores and restaurants that families like, and just about everything else.

It's nobody's fault; it's everybody's fault.

[Jerseysbest]

Uh yeah. I thought I read something a few months ago about 'experts' predicting the population's rate would slow in the next twenty years and the amount might even peak, forget when but something like a 100 years.

It seems like people who know nothing about cars end up spending ridiculous amounts on them. My gf's mother spends like $80-100 just to have a mechanic inspect the basic components, oil, belts, tires, coolant. But I guess she figures its easier to pay someone to do it then learn to do it herself... Do your own maintance, don't get tickets, and drive conservatively (to save gas and wear and tear), and with the exception of living in a urban enviroment like NYC, having a car isn't a big expense.

[Brian]

Jersey brought up a good point, which translates well to bicycles. Someone that can build their own and do their own maintenance can afford a lot more bike than someone who buys one off the rack and pays their LBS to maintain it. To have my tandem custom made in Australia, it is estimated that it would cost roughly AU$15k. I think maybe we paid half that by ordering the frame direct, and sourcing our parts from the US, then building it ourselves. Buying a used Toyota or Honda and maintaining it is not brain surgery. And getting a 4 door, 2WD, non-performance car with liability insurance only shouldn't be a huge burden either.

[fifao]

Hi everyone. I am 14. I have already been hammered about my age in, 'what happened to sydney?'. So go there if you don't like what I am saying.

Right, to begin with, I don't own any type of gaming system or watch TV. I don't even have a TV. They were long ago wisely banished by my parents in disgust of the stuff that was happening as a result of them. I bike just about everywhere I need to go to; dentist, music lesson, church......This means my parents very rarely have to take me anywhere. I once rode through cold rain so I could practice soccer with my friends in cold rain. I don't know, maybe that will be your new definition of lazy, but it does'nt sound so 'melty', to me. I was motivated to do that out of want to do it, too.

I understand that I do not represent the entire adolescent population, but me a bit more careful and helpful when you complain about 'kids'.

[Platy]

Hi everyone. I am 14. I have already been hammered about my age in, 'what happened to sydney?'. So go there if you don't like what I am saying.

Right, to begin with, I don't own any type of gaming system or watch TV. I don't even have a TV. They were long ago wisely banished by my parents in disgust of the stuff that was happening as a result of them. I bike just about everywhere I need to go to; dentist, music lesson, church......This means my parents very rarely have to take me anywhere. I once rode through cold rain so I could practice soccer with my friends in cold rain. I don't know, maybe that will be your new definition of lazy, but it does'nt sound so 'melty', to me. I was motivated to do that out of want to do it, too.

I understand that I do not represent the entire adolescent population, but me a bit more careful and helpful when you complain about 'kids'.

Can you comment about what people your age do for transportation these days? Do you think the bike gives you an unusual amount of mobility compared to others in your peer group?

[TomM]

of course my lifestyle helps, i'm a city person, enjoy traveling to other cities, and the only time i really need a car is when i go skiing in the mountains, or do a road trip out west in utah or nevada, and that's when it's actually FUN to drive, and not a huge aggravation

That's a key point. I live in the suburbs with very little public transportation. Also the mentality where I live doesn't foster public transportation. Here public transportation is viewed as ghetto transportation. It's so stupid.

[fifao]

Can you comment about what people your age do for transportation these days? Do you think the bike gives you an unusual amount of mobility compared to others in your peer group?

It definitely gives me more mobility. I can go down to the grocery store a couple miles away whenever I want or need. I do know other people my age who use bikes for transportation. Where I come from it isn't all that wierd. :eek:

[patc]

Here's the bottom line on this subtopic, we will all get old and retire. Without a younger generation behind us to keep the economy going, then we won't have retirement savings which means we will starve.

Oh please, so one is saying we should have a zero birthrate, or that such would ever happen overnight. We can and will adapt to lower birth rates and lower populations. In fact such planning is already happening - StatsCan expects the death rate in Canada to exceed the birth rate by 2020, and so we are already biasing our immigration policies to favour younger people.

I also believe in global warming - that doesn't mean I believe the oceans will boil tomorrow. Or the next day. They may boil January 23rd, though.

[patc]

I understand that I do not represent the entire adolescent population, but me a bit more careful and helpful when you complain about 'kids'.

Like I said, it was a generalization, which by definition does not apply to each individual and has exceptions! Get over it.

I would add that I don't consider a 14yo to be "a kid" anyway. In a work or volunteer setting I would treat you like anyone else, and have the same expectations for you. Frankly - and here goes another generalization - I feel that teenagers and young adults are very much underestimated and discounted in our society.

[budster]

Hi everyone. I am 14. I have already been hammered about my age in, 'what happened to sydney?'. So go there if you don't like what I am saying.

Right, to begin with, I don't own any type of gaming system or watch TV. I don't even have a TV. They were long ago wisely banished by my parents in disgust of the stuff that was happening as a result of them. I bike just about everywhere I need to go to; dentist, music lesson, church......This means my parents very rarely have to take me anywhere. I once rode through cold rain so I could practice soccer with my friends in cold rain. I don't know, maybe that will be your new definition of lazy, but it does'nt sound so 'melty', to me. I was motivated to do that out of want to do it, too.

I understand that I do not represent the entire adolescent population, but me a bit more careful and helpful when you complain about 'kids'.
:beer: That's root beer, of course! :D

Good on you for living an active life. Good on your parents for encouraging you to. Sounds like you do pretty much what I did when I was your age. Of course, when I was 14 (in, gulp, 1981 :eek: ), almost everyone my age got around by bike. How many of your classmates are as active as you are?

You'll be able to get your driver's license in two years. Do you plan to keep cycling everywhere then? I have to admit I couldn't wait to turn 16; I hardly cycled at all between then and college. Ironically, I bought my car with money I'd saved from my paper route -- which I did by bike (until I turned 16).

Anyway, it sounds as if you've got your head screwed on pretty straight. I won't be surprised if you have the guts to resist the dark (motorized) side of the Force. :)

[davidmcowan]

Can someone explain to me how you can have a life partner and a lover?