Bicycle Mechanics - Tubular pro's and cons

I was thinking of getting a second set of wheels. Are there any pro's or cons to tubulars from a dedicated clincher guy for the last 30 years.

Tim

Sew ups handle better at extremes because the sidewalls are much more flexible than clinchers, its easier to change a flat on the road with sew-ups, which you will probably have to do since they tend to flat more.

They are a pain to glue on and trying to repair one is like doing exploratory surgery on a snake.

... and trying to repair one is like doing exploratory surgery on a snake.


:lol:

Sew ups handle better at extremes because the sidewalls are much more flexible than clinchers, its easier to change a flat on the road with sew-ups, which you will probably have to do since they tend to flat more.

They are a pain to glue on and trying to repair one is like doing exploratory surgery on a snake.



Could you expand on your statement that tubulars flat more often. I ride both and see the this as a tire specific issue not a design difference issue. In my reading I believe one of the reasons Lance likes Tubulars is they flat less often.

So does that mean tubulars are or aren't easy to change on the road? Are they more or less prone to flats? Thanks
Tim

Pro; lighter system, gives you the right to act like bike snob.

Cons;
more work to install, way more work to install correctly. Tendency to come off while riding. Expensive. Usually more trouble to patch than it's worth-again, expensive. Gives you the right to act like a bike snob.

See the sticky in Classic & Vintage for a thorough explanation of tubular tires. I just put my first pair on some wheels I have, and I have to say that they just seem more...substantial. Or deluxe. Anyway, like I said, check out the C & V sticky thread.

So does that mean tubulars are or aren't easy to change on the road? Are they more or less prone to flats? Thanks
Tim

Hey cs1- I ride clinchers on my training bike (Michelin Carbons) and tubulars on my race bike (Vittoria Corsa Evo CX). Tubulars as a whole are definitely LESS likely to flat than clinchers, and never get pinch flats like clinchers do. In the age-old tubular/clincher debate, even though clinchers have a number of pluses over tubulars, that they generally flat more than tubulars is a given.

Are they harder to change on the road? Once you get used to it, you can change a flatted tubular faster than a clincher.

Cheers! - RJ

And apparently, unless you use hard glue, they don't even have a lower rolling resistance than good clinchers. There's a chart from a test out there somewhere, where this is pointed out.

RJ thanks for the info.

Tim

And apparently, unless you use hard glue, they don't even have a lower rolling resistance than good clinchers. There's a chart from a test out there somewhere, where this is pointed out.

Right... and you don't want to be using the hard track glue unless you're on a track because if you have to change a flat it isn't going to stick. With the technology of top-of-the-line clinchers pretty advanced now, the rolling resistance issue is pretty much a non-issue with the numbers being so close. There is however, a ride quality issue that comes into play. A top quality tub like Veloflex Servizio, Vittoria Corsa, etc. has such a nice supple ride that I find them more comfortable to ride at 140 psi than an equivalent clincher at 120 psi. I'm not say the rolling resistance is lower at 140 psi, that's debatable, but I think it's a more responsive ride while still being comfortable.

cs1- No problem :D . If you get a chance, try some... you might really like them... I do.

Cheers! - RJ

Maybe its my ignorance, but unless you have a support vehicle to change out that tub wheel for a new one, or you just slip on the new tire without fresh adhesive (increasing poss. of tire slipping off), how can it be faster to change than a clicher? I dont doubt the superior ride quality overall, but lets not overstate the case for tubulars in other areas.

Tubulars as a whole are definitely LESS likely to flat than clinchers, and never get pinch flats like clinchers do.

My experience is not the same as yours. I rode tubulars from 1975 until 1989. Since then I have been riding clinchers. I have never had a pinch flat or a snakebite flat on a clincher tire on a road bike. I have never had as many flats on my clinchers as I had on tubulars. I was thrilled when I was able to ditch those bad boys and concentrate on riding rather than babying my Clements.

Maybe its my ignorance, but unless you have a support vehicle to change out that tub wheel for a new one, or you just slip on the new tire without fresh adhesive (increasing poss. of tire slipping off), how can it be faster to change than a clicher? I dont doubt the superior ride quality overall, but lets not overstate the case for tubulars in other areas.

Hey mactheknife68- You're right, you don't want to slip on an unglued tire, but it doesn't have to be "fresh" adhesive. I pre-glue a spare and then after it dries for 24 hrs. fold it up base-to-base and carry it with me. If I flat, I'll peel up the flat with a tire lever, slap on the pre-glued spare, a quick inflate with a CO2 cartridge and I'm good to go. There's enough glue on the rim to bond to the pre-glued spare. I just don't go bombing down any technical descents the rest of the day. But that is a minus of tubs- you need to carry a spare tire. It's obviously a lot easier to carry a patch kit for clinchers.

Cheers! - RJ

Could you expand on your statement that tubulars flat more often. I ride both and see the this as a tire specific issue not a design difference issue. In my reading I believe one of the reasons Lance likes Tubulars is they flat less often.

To tell the truth, I haven't ridden sew-ups in a while, but when I did, I always rode the cheapies and they tended to flat often, one of the main reasons I went to clinchers. I ended up carrying two spares because once I flatted twice on the same ride.

So if you say theres good sew-ups out there that don't flat often, I may go back to them, love the way they ride and ease of fixing flats.

So if you say theres good sew-ups out there that don't flat often, I may go back to them, love the way they ride and ease of fixing flats.

Ease of fixing flats? You must be better than me at sewing them back up after patching the tube. ;)

My experience matches San Rensho and Ole biker. I found a diary I started back when I first began riding 10spds recently, had a Peugeot PX 10 and god were there a lot of flats. I rode $6-12 tubulars mostly, variety of Hutchinsons (which I avoided as much as possible), Vittorias and Clement 50s and 1-2 flats/month or every 250-400mi was typical. I saved the Crit Setas for races so my experience with silks was not much. Some months were 3-4 flats, some only 1 but they were a lot more common than my current experience with clinchers (measured per year not per month).
Steve

Except for some of the opinions on ride quality, my experience with sew-ups is similar to sch, San Rensho, and Olebiker. I have never been a racer, but I used them for loaded touring and all-purpose riding over just about every type of surface, for about 10 years. I rode cheapies. I think that if you're unlucky enough to get really good (nearly professional-level) at changing tires, then you will be able to change them fast enough whether it's a tubular or clincher, but if you want to get good at changing tires, then you should definitely ride sew-ups. I was pretty good at changing sew-ups, but haven't gotten as good at changing clinchers. Hmm.. I switched to clinchers because I was tired of the hassle of tubulars, and have been a happier man since. But I'm a practical kind of guy. As the reference to sewing points out, there's a big difference between changing a sew-up and repairing one.

It's important to realize that so many of the "practical" factors in which type of tire to choose depend on your riding style, racing or not, type of surface, budget, and on and on. The reasons Lance likes sew-ups don't apply to me. My overall opinion is that for general purpose riding, the ride quality is just not that much better with sew-ups to justify the hassle. And, as so much in bicycling is driven by fashion and image, the discussion over sew-ups is subject to much unsubstantiated and objective information: Caveat Emptor.

I'm shocked - nobody has linked to Sheldons page on this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#tubular

(look for index link at the top to "Tubular")

Ease of fixing flats? You must be better than me at sewing them back up after patching the tube. ;)

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mean fixing a flat on the road. Its really easy to peal off the flat sew up and put a new one on. I used to carry a knife and when I flatted, I cut across the sew up and pealed it off, and had the new one on in a jiffy.

Fixing a flat sew up, no thank you. I tried it several times and like you say, I could never get the tension on the stitching right and I always ended up with a lump in the tire.

Fixing a flat sew up, no thank you. I tried it several times and like you say, I could never get the tension on the stitching right and I always ended up with a lump in the tire.

I fixed too many. It took lots of practice and a real attention to detail, and some luck, to get them right. I guess that's part of my reasons for switching to clinchers. Back when I was riding them I had more time than money. I won't argue with your approach of throwing them out, it is what I would do today if I were still riding them, but the cost seems high.

To tell the truth, I haven't ridden sew-ups in a while, but when I did, I always rode the cheapies and they tended to flat often, one of the main reasons I went to clinchers. I ended up carrying two spares because once I flatted twice on the same ride.

So if you say theres good sew-ups out there that don't flat often, I may go back to them, love the way they ride and ease of fixing flats.

No need, just buy latex tubes and Vredistien's Fortenza's or Tri-Comps, I enjoy the ride as much as the Victtoria Corsa CX and better than Continential Sprinters. Cheap sew-ups are not reliable, at least the Vittoria's were not .

No need, just buy latex tubes and Vredistien's Fortenza's or Tri-Comps, I enjoy the ride as much as the Victtoria Corsa CX and better than Continential Sprinters. Cheap sew-ups are not reliable, at least the Vittoria's were not .

So, Fred, here is a question I think that is on the mind of those considering buying a set of tubular wheels, or like me, those who have an old set but have bad memories of riding unreliable, cheap sew-ups: How much do the tires you are recommending cost?

Thank you!

Betcha Armstroing does not himself fix his sew-up flats!
Here in AZ with lots of thorns had 2 flats in 2 trips up Sabino Canyon (about 14 miles, both thorns. Yes, fixed/sewed my own tires, but switched to clinchers back in 1978.
Tubulars are quicker to change-out on the road, but used to carry 2 spares on 100 mile events 'just in case'.
Now carry spare tube/patchkit. Fortunately never had to fix a sweup along the roadside . . .

OK Fred, I think I misunderstood your post. I'm not up on some of the tires, I thought you were recommending "good" sew-ups at a reasonable price.

Pro; lighter system, gives you the right to act like bike snob.

Cons;
more work to install, way more work to install correctly. Tendency to come off while riding. Expensive. Usually more trouble to patch than it's worth-again, expensive. Gives you the right to act like a bike snob.


Are you kidding me, they have a tendency to come off while riding, if you dont know what the f you are talking about then dont say anything.

Are you kidding me, they have a tendency to come off while riding, if you dont know what the f you are talking about then dont say anything.

Now now, DJ, Pete was right on 7 of 8 points (I'm counting the two snob references as two since it's such a good one). Remember that a pretty good percentage of the total posts are by people who don't know what they're talking about, and probably every single poster, including you and me, have crossed that line at least once.

I never had a tire come off, but I worried about it on the occasions that I changed a tire mid-ride and only had the residual sticky left. It would probably have been more accurate to say they tend to come off if you don't glue them. Then they do, and will. That's even messier than the glueing part.

One good thing about clinchers, though, I've never heard of one coming off.

Are you kidding me, they have a tendency to come off while riding, if you dont know what the f you are talking about then dont say anything.

It's a foregone conclusion a repaired clincher won't come off.

According to Sheldon Browns page here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#tubular

"If you replace a tubular on the road, you cannot corner safely at high speeds until you go home and re-glue the tire. For safe high-speed cornering, the glue needs to dry for at least several hours."

Are you kidding me, they have a tendency to come off while riding, if you dont know what the f you are talking about then dont say anything.

You are right that I don't know what I'm talking about. I've never owned a road bike or ridden a tubular. I'm just regurgitating what I've heard. Here's where I get some of it. Oh yeah, I also saw some video of the tour when someones tubular (Hincapie maybe) came off and Lance had to ride around him. Sorry for pissing you off. :roflmao:

http://www.engr.ku.edu/%7Ekuktl/bicycle/bicycle.html

To tell the truth, I haven't ridden sew-ups in a while, but when I did, I always rode the cheapies and they tended to flat often, one of the main reasons I went to clinchers. I ended up carrying two spares because once I flatted twice on the same ride.

So if you say theres good sew-ups out there that don't flat often, I may go back to them, love the way they ride and ease of fixing flats.

I've been using Tufo S3 Lites for about four years now. They weigh 215 grams and I use them for training and racing. I put in about 200 miles a week. I use them with Tufo sealant, and flat about once every three months (the sealant works like Slime). I was using clinchers and found that I flatted much more often. I went back to tubulars after a downhill blowout with clinchers that almost made me wet my pants. westernbikeworks.com sells them for about $47 each. They also sell other Tufos at both lower and higher prices. I'm very happy with their performance.

Hey mactheknife68- You're right, you don't want to slip on an unglued tire, but it doesn't have to be "fresh" adhesive. I pre-glue a spare and then after it dries for 24 hrs. fold it up base-to-base and carry it with me. If I flat, I'll peel up the flat with a tire lever, slap on the pre-glued spare, a quick inflate with a CO2 cartridge and I'm good to go. There's enough glue on the rim to bond to the pre-glued spare. I just don't go bombing down any technical descents the rest of the day. But that is a minus of tubs- you need to carry a spare tire. It's obviously a lot easier to carry a patch kit for clinchers.

Cheers! - RJ

Even a brand new tire will adhere to the rim if the rim a nice base of glue on it (Clement or other real glue, not Fast Tack), take it easy when you first ride it, pump it up properly (use a real pump), and ease yourself through the corners on the way home. By the next day, it should be adhered enought to train on (in the summer). As far as speed of changing the flat, sewups take half the time as a clincher ... just RIP the old one off, throw it in a nearby tree or tie it to a nearby fence as an offering to the cycling gods, and pull the new one on. Then you can point out to your friends all the old tires you've placed along your route! :p

jw

So now I am curious - Tim, if you are still hanging in on this thread - what's your opinion of tubulars after reading these opinions? And yes, look at the Classic & Vintage thread too. (If that doesn't make you stay with clinchers, I don't know what will).

Paul

... just RIP the old one off, throw it in a nearby tree or tie it to a nearby fence as an offering to the cycling gods, and pull the new one on. Then you can point out to your friends all the old tires you've placed along your route!

Glad I don't live in Milwaukee... :rolleyes:

I'm shocked - nobody has linked to Sheldons page on this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#tubular

(look for index link at the top to "Tubular")
Great link.

Tim

Are you kidding me, they have a tendency to come off while riding, if you dont know what the f you are talking about then dont say anything.

Wow, harsh.... I take it you own tubulars?

You are right that I don't know what I'm talking about. I've never owned a road bike or ridden a tubular. I'm just regurgitating what I've heard. Here's where I get some of it. Oh yeah, I also saw some video of the tour when someones tubular (Hincapie maybe) came off and Lance had to ride around him. Sorry for pissing you off. :roflmao:

http://www.engr.ku.edu/%7Ekuktl/bicycle/bicycle.html

Hincapie=No Josebo Bolaki(spell?)=Yes ...and a nasty spill that was

djbowen1 did have a good point about my post. I said that they have a tendency to come off. It might be more accurate to say that they have a tendency to come off if not properly glued on and only a slight potential to come off when glued on properly. The only problem is that gluing tubulers on properly takes a lot of work and it is all to common for tubulers to glued on improperly. Too many people using 3m fast tack and trying to do the installation in one day and ride it right away.

af895 did have a good point about my post. I said that they have a tendency to come off. It might be more accurate to say that they have a tendency to come off if not properly glued on and only a slight potential to come off when glued on properly. The only problem is that gluing tubulers on properly takes a lot of work and it is all to common for tubulers to glued on improperly. Too many people using 3m fast tack and trying to do the installation in one day and ride it right away.

Even the most elite professional mechanic's glued tires can roll off when fully inflated. Going back to Pete's example of Beloki's fall in the 2003 Tour de France. When the tar on the road gets heated up by the sun it becomes soft. As a rider takes a corner and hits a soft part of the tar they loose traction for a split second then regain it. He/she put a great side force on the tire and it rolls off the rim... Chances of this happening with a clincher: close to none.

Tubualrs are a racing thing. If you're out on a century by yourself and blow a tire (who cares if tubulars "flat less than clinchers" you'll get a flat eventually) it is much more difficult and time consuming to repair a tubuar than a clincher. If you are in a supported race and demand the lightest wheels and tires and want to run more than 140psi then tubulars are the way to go. If you flat at a race you'll just swap wheels anyway.

So if any of you have any old tublars that are flat that have latex tubes that your just going to throw out could you cut me a few patches from the tube. I'm going to try my hand at repair. Sorry that added absolutely no content to the thread but any help would be appreciated.

So now I am curious - Tim, if you are still hanging in on this thread - what's your opinion of tubulars after reading these opinions? And yes, look at the Classic & Vintage thread too. (If that doesn't make you stay with clinchers, I don't know what will).

Paul

And make sure you read ridesoldtrek's posts: you'll realize he's still working on his agenda (You own the patent on clincher technology or something?) Amazing how much a person will work to "help" everyone else think as negatively as they do. When was the last time you said you actually had any contact with a tubular tire, r.o.t.? Wasn't it sometime a couple of decades ago?

Chances of this happening with a clincher: close to none.

But clinchers most certainly do roll. I've seen far more clinchers roll off in crits than I have tubulars. Granted, that's probably because clinchers outnumber tubulars 10 to 1 in amateur racing, but my point still stands.

What's more, I can almost guarantee you every one of those rolled tubulars can be traced back to improper gluing. So if you glue your tires on right, you should be ok. What can we trace the cause of the rolled clinchers to? Nothing. They just went blammo. That scares me.

As for Beloki's tire, he was so crossed up and sideways when that tire came off that a clincher probably would have done the same thing.

But clinchers most certainly do roll. I've seen far more clinchers roll off in crits than I have tubulars. Granted, that's probably because clinchers outnumber tubulars 10 to 1 in amateur racing, but my point still stands...

white lobster- good point. I wrote this earlier above, but I like both clinchers and tubulars for different purposes. In a race or any ride where I know I'm going to doing some fast descents, especially fast technical desecents, I would MUCH RATHER be on tubulars. Reason being, a blowout on a fast descent with clinchers and there's a good chance it's coming off. A blowout on a fast descent with tubulars (glued on right) and it's most likely gonna stay on... Beloki's roll-off was... well I wouldn't wish that on anyone... looked like some pretty severe circumstances to me.

Cheers! - RJ

But clinchers most certainly do roll. I've seen far more clinchers roll off in crits than I have tubulars. Granted, that's probably because clinchers outnumber tubulars 10 to 1 in amateur racing, but my point still stands.

What's more, I can almost guarantee you every one of those rolled tubulars can be traced back to improper gluing. So if you glue your tires on right, you should be ok. What can we trace the cause of the rolled clinchers to? Nothing. They just went blammo. That scares me.

As for Beloki's tire, he was so crossed up and sideways when that tire came off that a clincher probably would have done the same thing.

From what I understand about tubulars I agree that most tubular failures can probably be traced back to improper gluing methods. That was kind of my whole point, albeit roundabout. The other thing that those tubular tire roll offs can be attributed to is glue failure caused by water. I think that the research in the link that I posted earlier talks about it.

As far as seeing all these clinchers roll off, how many have you seen? Is it possible that they rolled off 'casue they weere losing pressure already? I'm curious about this now because I have not seen or heard of clinchers rolling off on road bikes unless they were low on air, this might just be because I don't ride road bikes but it interests me from a mechanics standpoint.