View Full Version : House-free!?
I’ve seen a lot of posts regarding being car-free, TV-free, child-free, and even (God forbid) bike-free. So I’m curious, and pardon if this is too off topic, but how many of you are or have ever been HOUSE-free?
I do not have a car, but often the thought of buying and living out of a van to avoid the ridiculously high rent around here looks awfully tempting. I admire the van-dwellers simplified way of living and if I had a vehicle would even try it out myself just to see what it was like! RVing and sailing are two other possibilities of interest and would love to hear your stories.
In the meantime I am happily living at home with fewer expenses than most and riding my bike everywhere both for necessity and fun.
attercoppe
01-22-06, 10:45 PM
This is an interesting topic...does renting vs owning qualify as house-free?
Probably not, since you mention living in a vehicle of some sort. I have always thought that living on a boat would be neat. Of course you would have to live somewhere that would work - decent weather year-round, reasonably close access to stores etc. You'd also have to be able to live on the water - with the waves and all.
I know a couple of people in this area, and there are several more that I don't know, that live year-round in an RV. Their "houses" are at a local RV park, most don't drive them often, if ever. It's probably cheaper than lot rent for a mobile home, and it is actually mobile, if you were so inclined. The same park has at least a few regulars, that come every year and park for 3-5 months. And back near my hometown, there is a place along the highway, I don't know who owns it, but apparently they travel a lot. There is a huge garage (huge as in tall, RV-sized) and a little house there. An interesting idea for a home base...
That same local RV park is actually where I stayed when I first moved here. I came across the country without a job or a place to live, so I slept in my van and showered at the bathhouse for about a week. I would probably have kept it up but at 8000 feet, the nights get chilly even in late August - and colder yet as winter gets closer. I wasn't really prepared in several ways for long-term van living. Sure was cheap, though.
Mtn Mike
01-22-06, 11:00 PM
I bought a house 2 years ago. The main reason why I choose to buy a house, vs. steel, rent, or borrow, is to diversify myself financially. I got a fairly low interest mortgage so I guess that's good. Owning a house is a pain in the ass. They need maintenance, and I have many monthly expenses that renters never even have to think about. It certainly hasn't simplified my life. But the alternative is to live in an apartment or someone else’s house, which had never been very appealing either. Maybe I should get a van and live in it? :rolleyes:
I have given this topic extensive thought and done a lot of research on it.
My experiences and conclusions:
I have lived rent and mortgage free in squats for about 8 years and loved it (forget all the things you heard, i live in the Netherlands and here that means it is legal, i have lived in huge, beautifull house -presently in a nice pretty big one by myself-, can often stay for many years at a time and the owner frequently does not mind.)
For more info you could check my site, http://www.rhizomes.nl/
Squatting is nice but i decided i do want to build something up that will always be there and that is completely to my taste and likings. To that end i am moving to Spain and building a sustainable home.
www.rhizomes.nl/articles
I have also researched this for years and years and i am now utterly convinced that it is possible to build a very nice home for between $ 5000 and & 15.000 that will outperform (almost) any modern conventional building, there's quite some examples on my site. And the natural techniques are not hard by any means. Of course you need to buy a little land but in many areas this is still do able. The land will potentially also serve for permaculture which will make living even cheaper.
For inspiring and empowering info just go to my site and follow the links. IMO The most interesting type of buildings are Earthships, Yurts (semi mobile and still very comfortable) Cob (literally 'dirt free', anybody can build with it, excellent thermic and insulating properties), semi-underground, certain Roundhouses and Strawbale.
Finally for the mobile home thing, from what i understand you can live in a semi mobile home for very cheap in the states (trailer). A bit more expensive is an RV or Van. But i have always felt i'd get a bit of cabin fever and wouldn't like that my home could not be expanded very well in order to accomodate changes in lifestyle or preference.
If you do get into RV's or Vans this is one of the best things i have read about it:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/wutzke76.html
Also i would really suggest getting into bio diesel, this will make you independent, it will be good for the environment and will allow you to have fuel cheaper.
I have decided i will never ever hang myself by getting a mortgage, that is just legalized highway robbery.
The ideal (which i am almost sure i will achieve since it really is feasible) is the house in Spain that i can always come back to but to also go touring for extended periods (maybe renting out my home in the meantime).
jamesdenver
01-23-06, 10:43 AM
when traveling i'm met people live in hostels while working at restaurants, teaching english, or doing other misc. work while supporting their travels.
if you were truly into the vegabond lifestyle i think living a small van or RV in the city or mountains (with a bike as your local transport) would be pretty cool.
about 6 years ago i moved out of my $700 a month apartment, and paid $300 to rent in a friends house, and was working two jobs so kept much of my clothes and day to day posessions in my car.
six years later i now OWN a home, DON'T own a car, and am financially doing great. i disagree that a mortgage is highway robbery. my home has appraised for $15k more than i purchase it for, and the small improvements i make around my house only help it.
i honestly think renting ties you down MORE than owning a home. a rent is a year lease. many people i know have bought homes, done some work and SOLD them with a profit. and while minor or major fix and flips aren't everyones cup of tea, it certainly returns more than the stock market (like the above poster referred to).
my fantasy is to have a million dollars in the bank, yet travel and live in the city as a vegabond or hippie, with no one the wiser to my assets, just volunteering, people watching and educating myself through experience.
if that makes me a poser so be it. my other life's fantasy is to be an international fugutive diamond thief. so hide your diamonds.
Alekhine
01-23-06, 10:54 AM
I've been considering living and working only on my sailboat, but I'm a pretty serious pianist on the side, and I just can't give that up, so I'm tethered for the time being, since the only point of doing the boat thing would be to travel while I worked, not to get some fractional space for myself in the name of simplicity.
Considering also switching over full-time to just doing composing and playing violin in order to facilitate that, but...
Artkansas
01-23-06, 01:43 PM
This-free and that-free, I suppose it can go on till you reach a Jainist-like moment of nirvana just before you expire from being food-free. For those of us left behind with all our short-comings though, we probably seek a less pure balance.
Sailboats are notoriously high maintenance. RV's are good if you want to travel, though it's not exactly car-free. I guess for each person, they have to find out what provides the highest benefit to work ratio.
For me it's a small apartment. Grounds maintenance is covered, major repairs. So I mostly have to keep up the inside of the apartment. Where I live is quiet and I feel comfortable walking at any hour. It's close to work, and the neighborhood has restaurants, movies, banks, library, post office, small stores, grocery stores and a big box store all within walking distance.
Even my storage bin for my excess stuff is just across the street. A year ago I moved and really pared things down so everything fit in a 5x7x8 box. Yeah, it would be nice to get rid of all the extra bike tools and computer manuals, but what do I do with my grandfathers papers. I can't replace them. So for me, thats my balance of simplicity right now.
I’ve seen a lot of posts regarding being car-free, TV-free, child-free, and even (God forbid) bike-free. So I’m curious, and pardon if this is too off topic, but how many of you are or have ever been HOUSE-free?
On two occasions, for less than a year each, I lived in a tent. We even got the post office to give us an official address without a permanent structure at the location. The address helped deal with employers and banks.
va_cyclist
01-23-06, 02:51 PM
I have decided i will never ever hang myself by getting a mortgage, that is just legalized highway robbery.
I don't think I understand this point of view. 15 years ago I lived in an apartment, paying around $1200 bucks a month in rent on a one-year lease. For that I got about 700 sq. ft., with 2 bedrooms, noisy neighbors, no yard, no privacy, no garage, no real storage space, and shared parking. Then I bought a house with a mortgage. For about the same monthly cost, I got 1500 sq. ft., four bedrooms, 2-car garage, basement, shed, yard, driveway, private walls, private parking, $10,000/year in mortgage interest deductions off my taxable income, and a growing equity stake in a piece of real estate that will never lose value. (In fact, our first house gained about 50% in value during the 8 years we lived there.) Sure, I have to mow the lawn and pay for repairs, but I think I'm still way ahead. And there's nothing better for your credit rating than to make timely payments on a mortgage.
So where exactly does the hanging part come in?
I have decided i will never ever hang myself by getting a mortgage, that is just legalized highway robbery.
In the USA, mortgages are subsidized through tax breaks for people with mortgages, making it financially better than it would be for people who want to buy a house. One of the implications is that people who don't have a mortgage (such as most apartment-dwellers) pay a larger share of the taxes, which seems rather unfair.
My dad once told me that he had paid some $150,000 towards a mortgage over a few years and gained $3000 in equity, or something to that effect. On the other hand, if we had been renting a house it might well have been $150,000 and no equity.
Jerseysbest
01-23-06, 06:13 PM
Home-free? You mean homeless?
In a van (down by the river...) or RV? Trailer park (cough cough white) trash.
I'm only gonna rent until I have enough for a down payment for a house. Renting sucks, you lose anyway you look at it, unless your looking for short term or don't have a permenent job.
attercoppe
01-23-06, 06:24 PM
i disagree that a mortgage is highway robbery. my home has appraised for $15k more than i purchase it for, and the small improvements i make around my house only help it.
i honestly think renting ties you down MORE than owning a home. a rent is a year lease. many people i know have bought homes, done some work and SOLD them with a profit. and while minor or major fix and flips aren't everyones cup of tea, it certainly returns more than the stock market (like the above poster referred to).
James, this isn't directed soley at you, it's just my argument for the other side. Some of the other posters here have mentioned similar things, and I'll address those as well, I just chose yours to quote for my rebuttal.
If your home is appraising for more than you bought it for then yes, it is increasing in value. (This does not mean it can never lose value.) But just like any investment, an increase in value does you no good until you cash it in. For instance, if you buy a savings bond, it may increase by 6% over five years - and at the end of that time, you get rid of the bond, and you get back your initial investment plus what it earned. Unless at some point you are going to get rid of your house and not buy another one (maybe going back to renting?), it doesn't mean anything for it to increase in value - the exception being you have more equity, which as long as you still own the house, basically just means you can borrow even more money (putting your house at risk to do so) and get deeper into debt. A good mortgage payment history can indeed improve your credit, but again, using that credit will only serve to put you depper into debt. If you are going to sell the house (presumably for more than what you paid) and buy another - guess what, inflation (and likely a rise in housing costs) means on average you'll get about the same quality of house at the increased price. Of course there are exceptions, but in general you really don't make money just by owning a house. You mention fix and flips, but as you say, that's certainly not for everyone - plus most people who do this generally don't live in that house, they have a separate permanent residence anyway.
You say renting ties you down more than owning, giving the example of a year lease. This is a common argument. Compare a year lease with a 30-year mortgage. Who's more tied down? Sure you can sell the house anytime - hopefully.That will depend on the market, the condition of the house, the current economy, etc etc. Even if you can't break the lease on an apartment, worst case is under one year in the place. In fact, not all rentals have a leases defined in one-year blocks. The apartment I'm in now is month-to-month. Theoretically, that doesn't protect me from having the place rented out from under me, but in this case that's not going to happen. I have lived in another apartment that had an initial one-year lease, then month-to-month thereafter.
When renting, one typically has a very limited number of expenses - the rent itself, utilities, sometimes common area fees or the like. Owning a home carries not only the mortgage, but also property taxes, homeowner's insurance, yard work or the bill for having it done, yearly (or so) work like painting, gutter cleaning etc, plus emergencies like sewer/septic problems, broken windows, cracked foundation etc. With a rental, all this risk and maintenance is assumed by the owner, not the renter.
In the end, it's up to each person to decide which is better for them. I happen to believe there is quite a bit of hype around home ownership, touting it as an investment, and disinformation regarding renting as being a waste of money. The personal benefits need to be considered, as well as the drawbacks, for either choice.
fallstorm
01-23-06, 08:23 PM
I honestly thought about doing it this summer. Saving some money, putting what I need in the back of my van, and heading down the Oregon coast Astoria way and having a nice, simple, relaxed summer. I had it planned out that I'd live like many do on tour... simple kitchen equipment, cooking whatever I could find. I'm not sure where I'd park the van, but I'm sure I could find somewhere close to restroom and shower facilities. Unforuntately, the van needed too much work to be used for such a thing, so I just got rid of the thing. But, I've really been thinking about this over the last few weeks. It doesn't sound to me like a half-bad idea, particularly after I graduate.
Chris L
01-23-06, 08:40 PM
I’ve seen a lot of posts regarding being car-free, TV-free, child-free, and even (God forbid) bike-free. So I’m curious, and pardon if this is too off topic, but how many of you are or have ever been HOUSE-free?
I've known of people who have done it. There's a German guy by the name of Heinz Stucke (I think) who has been on a bike tour around the world for the last 40 years!. I met a guy in Tasmania in 2003 who was living in a tent. I've often wondered about that lifestyle myself, but I the usual questions arise. How would I finance it (you might find it more difficult to get a job with no fixed address)? Could I really give up all of the modern conveniences in my home forever? I really think there are a lot of things in our lives that we take for granted, things that we perhaps don't value as we should until we lose them.
If you're really curious about this, why not try it for a relatively short time? How about loading up a tent and doing a bike tour for a few weeks or a few months? Put your possessions in storage if need be -- get rid of the ones you don't want, and just go. After a few weeks or months, you'll have an idea of what you miss and what you don't. The results might surprise you.
I fully agree with the points about the disadvantages of Home ownership. I also agree with the notion that whether renting or buying home is a good or bad idea is 100% dependant on personal circumstances and taste. Lastly the point about trying something out for a bit of time is a good one, to me it really feels like people usually really regret the things they don't do or try rather than those they do.
I have also understood that most sailboats (depends much on condition and materials) are very maintenance intensive. Most of them need to be put in Dry Dock (which ties you down a little) once a year and are then repainted or treated. Costly and time consuming but might still be well worth it to some.
Aside from the things mentioned above, there is also a political or moral thing about owning a home. I personally find it ridiculous that in some of wealthiest nations of the world people need to tie themselves down 20 to 30 years in order to own a home...
This one of the reasons why in intend to build my own eco home. I refuse to pay a fortune in interest or to even go in to debt for something which should be, and i now know -can be- affordable. I also feel that people ought to not speculate with or make (much) money of of basic needs such as shelter and food... But of course feel free to disagree.
By the way, i personally am also Childfree by choice (vasectomy at age 24) and have had large periods that i was TV free, both have really done me a world of good and given me much freedom, but again this is a very personal thing. 'Whatever floats Your Boat /Rental /Bought Home / RV'. :)
Mtn Mike
01-23-06, 09:43 PM
Aside from the things mentioned above, there is also a political or moral thing about owning a home. I personally find it ridiculous that in some of wealthiest nations of the world people need to tie themselves down 20 to 30 years in order to own a home...
:)
Well, I think your augments are a little lacking. First "owning" of anything is a relative term. A more accurate term for what is gained by paying on a mortgage would be equity, which practically any homeowner will accrue, even after a few years of "owning”. It’s all about increasing your net worth, not owning things, per se. Not that there is anything wrong with your plan of saving up for a house, but I think you could accomplish the same thing by getting in the game now with a mortgage, and starting to gain equity, instead of saving via a savings account and then buying later down the road....
At least that would make sense here in the U.S.
I guess i feel increasing my net worth or acrueing equity (whatever one calls it seems a little inconsequential to me) is not worthwhile persuit considering the aforementioned downsides and tradeoffs. The worth i value is my worth as a person and that ties in with certain political, environmental considerations, net value or financial worth is very secondary and relative IMO. Kurt Vonnegut also has interesting things to say about some of these topics, though i forget in which book.
Additionally there are quite a lot of people who are losing everything in the Netherlands (another very rich country) these days. They get sick or lose their job and their home gets repossessed by the bank and they lose all their invested capital as well as equity.
Mtn Mike
01-23-06, 09:53 PM
I guess i feel increasing my net worth or acrueing equity (whatever one calls it seems a little inconsequental to me) is not worthwhile persuit considering the aforementioned downsides and tradeoffs. The worth i value is my worth as a person and that ties in with political, environmental considerations, net value or financial worth is very secondary and relative IMO. Kurt Vonnegut also has interesting things to say about some of these topics, though i forget in which book.
Additionally there are quite a lot of people who are losing everything in the Netherlands (another very Rich country) these days. They get sick or lose their job and their home gets repossessed by the bank and they lose all their invested capital as well as equity
agreed...but I'll just justify my actions by saying "it's the american way"
Oh, i am not sure if you are kidding but no need to justify yourself to me whatsoever, it is an individual choice. But to balance my arguments some, not playing ball (Amrican Way) can also be a stressfull and bad choice for quite some people. I'd love to see a utopian thing occur with housing but i know it isn't very likely and for everyone, and that's quite ok.
jamesdenver
01-23-06, 10:22 PM
attercoppe i agree with your notes above - well put. it's no use to buy if you're not sure of your future, or move from place to place often for job or personal reasons. - unless you're savvy at lending and home buying. i've rented in apartment buildings, and now own my home, but one thing for sure is if i move and rent i'll never go to a big apartment complex again (even tho i still miss the view from my old high rise). don't like all the fees, credit checks, potential noise -- if i moved to hmm, amsterdam or buenos aires (thinking aloud he he), i'd be on craigslist real fast meeting like minded people, and renting a room, half a house, etc. save much more money, more homey environment, and easier to break a lease that way (with respect to landlords agreements of course)
and on the "american way" comments, i am a huge advocate of simple living, as noted in other posts, and since paying off my debt, c'cards, no car, etc. and only having a home as my debt (which i can sell), it's been one of the best accomplishments of my life, BUT, the american way doesn't provide an OUT for those who don't have reserves or savings as backups.
our aggressive capatilism hurts the uninsured, the working poor, and the undereducated. and while that's based on life decisions - my experience in having two social workers as parents is that welfare and programs do not TRAIN people for life skills very well. i.e. money management, interviewing, logistics of running a household, etc.
i do think money and savings in the bank, or stocks, or house - DOES equal security -- and living in our society that IS a must as a basic contigency plan. and lucky for us who live simply, a job loss, or temporary setback will not be as big a deal as someone with two mortgages, a boat and 3 cars, but i do believe some financial contingency is neccessary in life -- and see nothing wrong with accumulating wealth in a responsible way. i actually contribute to a "green fund" of stocks, as well as an IRA and 401k, (insert enron comment here)
jamesdenver
01-23-06, 10:28 PM
[QUOTE=attercoppe]
You say renting ties you down more than owning, giving the example of a year lease. This is a common argument. Compare a year lease with a 30-year mortgage. Who's more tied down? Sure you can sell the house anytime - hopefully.That will depend on the market, the condition of the house, the current economy, etc etc. Even if you can't break the lease on an apartment, worst case is under one year in the place. In fact, not all rentals have a leases defined in one-year blocks. The apartment I'm in now is month-to-month. Theoretically, that doesn't protect me from having the place rented out from under me, but in this case that's not going to happen. I have lived in another apartment that had an initial one-year lease, then month-to-month thereafter.
QUOTE]
agree on this too - you need to be VERY picky about where you buy. i'm lucky enough to be in a good establish neighborhood, and got in for a bit under similar comparables.
but i have a friend living in vegas (going to UNLV), and i occasionally read the review journal online and am AMAZED that in 1998 houses were selling for $140-200, and know they're worth over $300k. NOT a great time to buy.
i'm happy owning and would still tout it as an investment for someone established in a community like myself, but i agree it's not something to rush into and you need to do solid research on your chosen neighborhood, city, and the like
mtnroads
01-23-06, 10:38 PM
Homes don't always appreciate and you don't always gain equity, as people in some areas are going to find out in the next 12-24 months. I bought a house in Denver in 1981, sold it at a $10k loss in 1987, a few years after the oil crash, because I had to move to the west coast. That was 12% loss of value and I considered myself lucky not to have to PAY to get out of it as some did.
I then bought a house in the Sacramento foothills in 1989, when the RE market was peaking, and it then slowly lost value until 1995, I stayed in it longer than I wanted to, until I could finally realize a 30% gain in 1998. I did ok, but now it is appraised at 600k, or 3 times what I sold it for in 1998. In spite of the ups and downs, it was worth it to live there and have fine neighbors and a big yard for several years. Homes have their advantages.
Fortunately, after those experiences, I did pretty well on some raw land I bought in 1999 in the Bay Area, but it took five hard years of work to develop, subdivide and sell half to someone with a similar eco-vision who wouldn't build a McMansion on it. I am curently living in an apartment, have the freedom to move when I want, and am planning to build an eco-home on raw land further north this time, since it has become too expensive to build where I am due to earthquake codes, zoning requirements, etc.
My point is real estate is not a sure thing, especially in the short term, as markets go up and down. There are nice alternatives, especially if you are not sure where you will be next. I like my current apartment and also spent 6 months living in a vintage Airstream in 2004, all around the west, while investigating real estate and other places to live, and I really enjoyed the freedom a lot. The lack of space became confining after a while (150sf!), but it taught me alot about space utilization, simplicity and small being better for resource utilization.
PS - James, I like and agree with the points you made.
john
I agree 100% with all the latest points, interesting perspectives and experiences. Nice to see fellow bikers taking control of their lives and living consciously. In that Vein i will now start a thread called 'The Best things i did for/with my Life'. Wonder what that will yield.
Equity? Mortgage? Net worth? Stocks? Politics? Man I didn’t realize this thread I started would get so confusing, but thanks for the replies and suggestions! I guess I should also ad that my family has been battling money issues for my whole 20 years of existence, and right now my mom and I are on Section-8 housing because we still can’t afford anything and she also recently lost her job. I can’t get a good job because of my poor education and sleep disorder, so besides being car-free I’m looking for other ways to live with my current min-wage job should I have to leave. I don’t need much space, so renting a room out of someone’s house sounds like a good idea, plus I love the idea of community housing (especially with friends, but they all live too far away). There are plenty on Craigslist, but most are way beyond my financial capabilities. Yeah boats and RV’s sound like too much, and even an apartment is too big, so has anyone tried one of those small pre-fab houses? (Check out http://www.gotoreviews.com/archives/architecture-and-building/) But again I’d hate to invest in something like that than realize I don’t like it! So for now I’ll stick to rented rooms (my dad does this and it works great! But he also works two jobs.)
Dahon.Steve
01-24-06, 09:13 AM
I don't think I understand this point of view. 15 years ago I lived in an apartment, paying around $1200 bucks a month in rent on a one-year lease. For that I got about 700 sq. ft., with 2 bedrooms, noisy neighbors, no yard, no privacy, no garage, no real storage space, and shared parking. Then I bought a house with a mortgage. For about the same monthly cost, I got 1500 sq. ft., four bedrooms, 2-car garage, basement, shed, yard, driveway, private walls, private parking, $10,000/year in mortgage interest deductions off my taxable income, and a growing equity stake in a piece of real estate that will never lose value. (In fact, our first house gained about 50% in value during the 8 years we lived there.) Sure, I have to mow the lawn and pay for repairs, but I think I'm still way ahead. And there's nothing better for your credit rating than to make timely payments on a mortgage.
So where exactly does the hanging part come in?
You're very lucky.
I live in the New York Metro and you can't touch a home for less than 245K. Most of the homes around my way are going for over 360K! In other words, your mortgage will be much more than 1200 bucks a month even with a 10% down. You're income alone will have to be around 70-100 K a year if you're not married. You still have pay for PMI, repairs and did I mention taxes! People around my way are paying in taxes what I pay for rent! It's insane and getting crazy. Real estate prices in the past four years have gone through the roof and you need two incomes to hold down a mortgage. What I need is a wife and fast! I refuse to go for a no money down loan but that maybe my only option because I can't save fast enough to make 20% down before the prices rise again! I heard the other day that 40% of all mortgages have no down payment. Scary.
Dahon.Steve
01-24-06, 10:07 AM
Equity? Mortgage? Net worth? Stocks? Politics? Man I didn’t realize this thread I started would get so confusing, but thanks for the replies and suggestions! I guess I should also ad that my family has been battling money issues for my whole 20 years of existence, and right now my mom and I are on Section-8 housing because we still can’t afford anything and she also recently lost her job. I can’t get a good job because of my poor education and sleep disorder, so besides being car-free I’m looking for other ways to live with my current min-wage job should I have to leave. I don’t need much space, so renting a room out of someone’s house sounds like a good idea, plus I love the idea of community housing (especially with friends, but they all live too far away). There are plenty on Craigslist, but most are way beyond my financial capabilities. Yeah boats and RV’s sound like too much, and even an apartment is too big, so has anyone tried one of those small pre-fab houses? (Check out http://www.gotoreviews.com/archives/architecture-and-building/) But again I’d hate to invest in something like that than realize I don’t like it! So for now I’ll stick to rented rooms (my dad does this and it works great! But he also works two jobs.)
Folks. Here I am thinking how terrible my life is without being able to afford a house and having no significant other and then someone posts this. Now I don't feel so bad and I thank the poster for being truthful and real. There are many people doing so much worse in life that you just have to be happy with what you have. I know a guy my age right now dying in a hospital at this very moment. Let me tell you, if you don't have your health, you have nothing.
Dahon.Steve- maybe you should just keep on renting, given the current market.
There's no guarantee that the NYC housing market won't take a dive.
Although one option is to move out of NYC. Philly is pretty nice...
If you want fairly cheap housing in a tight market, go for less space rather than more. That's the trouble with houses, they generally don't come nearly as small as my apartment. (Heating bills are generally lower on apartments too.)
Mortgage-subsidies considered, i'd say it's still better financially to go with the minimum amount of space to suit your needs. If you're a renter, you can put money in the bank instead of into home equity.
Also, as far as freedom to dump one's lease-
You can always try to find someone to take over your lease if you want to leave an apartment before your lease is done. You're not absolutely tied to paying rent unless there's nobody your landlord will accept who wants to take over your place.
I was homeless for a while in the mid-1970s recession, when a mixup at the unemployment office left me high and dry. Luckily I was in San Diego and able to sleep on the beach. For a young man it was a lot of fun, though also stressful. Every morning I wondered if I would be able to scrounge the wherewithall to make it through another day. But in the evenings I enjoyed the fellowship of the other beach bums. Every night we would pool our meager resources and buy some wine. It was always a waiting game to see if the guys who went to buy the wine would ever come back with it! Then we'd build a little fire and sing songs ("Bobby McGee" was a favorite) and swap stories. I remember one guy said he hadn't slept indoors for over 15 years. Even when he visited his sister's house he would sleep in her back yard.
If you slept on the beach, the tide would come in and you might get wet. If you slept on the bluff above the beach, the cops would roust you a couple times during the night. The surf would sing you to sleep and you'd wake up every morning with the same view that folks in La Jolla paid a million dollars to see.
After a couple weeks, four months worth of unemployment checks all came in at the same time. I took the Greyhound back to Michigan, and soon was full time at both college and work.
Since then, I've always rented. I'm a good steady tenant. I lived in one rental house for 13 years, and I've been alone in my little apartment for five years now. I think renting vs. buying is a personal choice with absolutely no moral or ethical overtones. You can use a spreadsheet to figure out which makes the most financial sense, but often it comes down to whether you want to fix the garbage disposal when it breaks own.
Mtn Mike
01-24-06, 11:01 AM
In that Vein i will now start a thread called 'The Best things i did for/with my Life'. Wonder what that will yield.
I'm not old enough to have that kind of introspective. Ask me again in 20 years! :rolleyes:
timmhaan
01-24-06, 11:18 AM
i've moved 5 times within the last 6 years. and i'm planning to move into my GF's apartment next month and then we'll probably move to a bigger place within a year or two. if that happens, i'll have moved 7 times!
as such, i'm absolutely dying to have a stable living condition. moving all the time between rentals or staying with people is exhausting. it's fine for now, but within a few years i'll need to claim a stake to something.
Sir Lunch-a-lot
01-24-06, 11:45 AM
Here's a somewhat silly thought: What if one were to build/modify a bike trailer so that it was a sort of mini sleeping unit (kind of like what you see with some motorbikes). One could insulate it with thin foam insulation sheets or something, have a couple of foam mats as a mattress, a hatch on the back (perhaps built to use standard house door latch and locking mechanisms), one of those little roof vents (like camping trailers have), maybe a section on the trailer in which a solar oven could be stored, possibly a little tank for storing drinking water, etc. Then, if one were to get really creative, you could add on a toilet/shower stall (that would be collapsable, walls made out of tarp or something of that likes (granted at this point its probably starting to get a bit heavy.) The possiblilitys are (possibly) endless. Such a trailer could allow one to live a nomadic stort of lifestyle, or just go camping in style. Maybe one could even rig it so that you could park in a parking lot over night and plug it into a power outlet to run a heater on colder nights, or even watch a small tv or something. (Or one could do a solar power rig.) Something like this could be good for being home free. Then, if you could come up with a steady source of income (Bottle and Can collecting, maybe? Being a courier or something, delivering packages throughout a given area of the city?), you're good to go.
It's fun to think about at any rate.
Dahon.Steve
01-24-06, 12:10 PM
Dahon.Steve- maybe you should just keep on renting, given the current market.
There's no guarantee that the NYC housing market won't take a dive.
Although one option is to move out of NYC. Philly is pretty nice...
That's what I intend to do. It's incredible how many luxury apartments builidngs are being constructed today. They are not affordable and many of these towers remain empty. We have an unaffordable housing glut and an affordable housing shortage.
I myself am wondering when this housing market will take a dive. I don't think it will because cities need all the property taxes they can get so I don't see assessements going down any time soon. I do think we are headed for a recesssion and then we'll see what happens.
I like Philly too and they have an excellant transit system.
timmhaan
01-24-06, 12:17 PM
It's incredible how many luxury apartments builidngs are being constructed today.
no kidding. the luxury market is crazy! almost every new development i've personally seen has been a suite of luxury units. i wonder how this is going to play out in the long run? surely the market can't bare this forever.
Artkansas
01-24-06, 12:18 PM
Here's a somewhat silly thought: What if one were to build/modify a bike trailer so that it was a sort of mini sleeping unit
It's fun to think about at any rate.
When I lived in Coachella Valley there was one fellow who was always towing a hand-built trailer behind his bike. From what I could see, he lived in it. But he was always pretty private so I never got the chance to talk to him about it, though I would see it parked near Hwy 111 and Washington by the Swiss Donut pretty frequently. It had to be fairly heavy, even on flat ground he was using gears that must have been down into the teens.
Artkansas
01-24-06, 12:22 PM
That's what I intend to do. It's incredible how many luxury apartments builidngs are being constructed today. They are not affordable and many of these towers remain empty. We have an unaffordable housing glut and an affordable housing shortage.
Yeah, it's ironic. When I lived in Coachella Valley I saw one house sell for $30,000 and 6 years later sell again for $300,000. I knew some of the contractors and they said it had become a problem to get enough skilled workers to compete. The houses had become so expensive that the people building the houses couldn't afford to live there.
Interesting stories all! Some really do make me feel blessed. That other thread is going pretty well. Concerning that thread i will say this,.. i am not in my 30's yet but am glad i am thinking about these things and even taking action. If one waits untill one is older to do this kind of introspection or to make changes it could end up being too late (sortoff)... or not. As for buying or renting a home not being a political thing, well i guess it depends on the person. For me and from my point of view everything i do has some sort of political (personal not parliamentary) effect. Consumption or acquisition (whether it be food, a home or whatever) especially is pretty much like voting with my money... but that is how i see it. I can well imagine that people choose to look at it a different way.
That Bike trailer thing is feasible, there is even a movie about some guy doing it except he rides a tiny tractor in front of it (very slow speed) and is old as well. But i am not sure what the title was, anyone know?
eofelis
01-24-06, 03:20 PM
[QUOTE=PVyrus] I can’t get a good job because of my poor education and sleep disorder, so besides being car-free I’m looking for other ways to live with my current min-wage job should I have to leave. I don’t need much space, so renting a room out of someone’s house sounds like a good idea, plus I love the idea of community housing (especially with friends, but they all live too far away). [QUOTE]
I just recently rented a room in a house. It's only been not quite a week yet, but it's working out fine. A bit of my situation is that I moved out of the apt I shared with my bf as I felt I need my own space for a while. I'm nearly 40 yrs old, so I didn't make any rash immature decisions. Anyway, I felt I didn't really need a whole apt for myself, and couldn't afford it on my student budget anyway. I found a good situation. I got a furnished bedroom with my own bathroom. (The only furniture I brought was a small desk for my computer). I share a living room and kitchen with 2 other roommates. We all get along good, and mind our own business. The owners of the house live right next door and are nice folks. There is a TV with cable (a treat for me) and one of the roommates has a phone he will let me use. I feel like my life has been simplified a lot. I pay my rent and no other bills. I like it. I have my own space, but I also get a bit of social interaction each day if I happen to cross paths with a roommate. Since I have the place to myself most of time, I feel like I'm renting a house for much less than it would cost to rent an apt.
I just recently rented a room in a house. It's only been not quite a week yet, but it's working out fine. A bit of my situation is that I moved out of the apt I shared with my bf as I felt I need my own space for a while. I'm nearly 40 yrs old, so I didn't make any rash immature decisions. Anyway, I felt I didn't really need a whole apt for myself, and couldn't afford it on my student budget anyway. I found a good situation. I got a furnished bedroom with my own bathroom. (The only furniture I brought was a small desk for my computer). I share a living room and kitchen with 2 other roommates. We all get along good, and mind our own business. The owners of the house live right next door and are nice folks. There is a TV with cable (a treat for me) and one of the roommates has a phone he will let me use. I feel like my life has been simplified a lot. I pay my rent and no other bills. I like it. I have my own space, but I also get a bit of social interaction each day if I happen to cross paths with a roommate. Since I have the place to myself most of time, I feel like I'm renting a house for much less than it would cost to rent an apt.
This sounds like a good setup for you. Just curious--where do you keep your bikes?
Sir Lunch-a-lot
01-24-06, 04:47 PM
i am not in my 30's yet but am glad i am thinking about these things and even taking action. If one waits untill one is older to do this kind of introspection or to make changes it could end up being too late (sortoff)... or not.
As Peter Parker's (Spiderman's) Uncle says, "These are the years in which we become the men we are going to be for the rest of our lives." (Or something to that effect).
tharold
01-24-06, 08:03 PM
I lived in my van for about a year, partly while I was going to school. This was mostly in Austin Tx so the winters are bearable.
It's completely doable. The biggest problems were find a place to park and shower. And remembering where you parked... Cooking was not a problem, I had a coleman 1-burner. While I was going to school I would use the gym showers. Other times and on the road I would wash my hair at a rest stop or a burger joint restroom.
You do have to work at it. One time I had to drop the engine in a deserted parking lot to change the clutch throwout bearing. And it started to rain! No fun wrestling a 300lb greasy engine alone in the rain.
But there were pluses too. I remember listening to the rain freezing one night as I fell asleep. Or spending the night beneath a tree full of flashing fireflies (I opened the hatch cut in the roof).
roccobike
01-24-06, 08:37 PM
Home ownership in the 80's was THEE way to go. Increased home value was a sure thing for nine of the ten years in that decade. But for today's young home owners, I'm not so sure it is such a great investment. If you have a family with children, then yes a home offers space that apartments, mobile homes and vans can't offer. But for the single or couple with no children, I think buying a house is more of a personal choice or lifestyle than an investment. As for me, if I had the choice, I would still choose a house because I value the independence, space and comfort it affords me.
eofelis
01-24-06, 09:19 PM
This sounds like a good setup for you. Just curious--where do you keep your bikes?
I have 2 of my bikes with me (Pacer & Randonee) and they are in my bedroom. I locked them together, plus there is a lock on the door for when I'm not there. My other two bikes are still at my former apt., which is fine with everyone for now.
The only downside of this has been that I went from 1/2 mile to 3 miles away from the college I go to. And I'm not within walking distance of much of anything. Sure, a doable bikeride (all flat) but it's been cold, and the anxiety of doing the move and dealing with stuff has me wiped out and I haven't felt like riding much, so I have been driving my car more. I'll be back to riding soon enough though.
Here's a somewhat silly thought: What if one were to build/modify a bike trailer so that it was a sort of mini sleeping unit (kind of like what you see with some motorbikes). It's fun to think about at any rate.
I've wondered this myself, and it is a very interesting thought so I'll throw some ideas on the fire... Something like that would definatially get VERY heavy for a bike to pull, so I figured that it would have a small solar-powered motor with battery storage to help "lighten the load", much like an E-bike's pedal-assist. The battery might even be able to provide power for things like laptops or heaters, but probably not for long. During the day, it would collapsed into a small arodynamic storage unit, than it would prop open into a sheltered sleeping area kept aloft by tires and stilts. I can't imagine putting a bathroom into it because the water-based storage would get heavy and smelly. There would probably be a lot of problems with this though such as finding space to tow, finding places to prop for the night, the battery running out of juice, and machanical things to worry about, but to see one in action would be awesome! But another disadvantage I see is it would take away the "getting back to nature under man-power" bit, but than agian it might be the perfect solution for those who are traveling to weather worn areas (or for people like me who need power to run a CPAP machine during the night).
attercoppe
01-24-06, 10:24 PM
I'd just like to insert here a bit of hippie crap about civil discussion...it's so nice to see all of us here getting along so well despite some varied opinions on various issues. This thread may well have gone off topic a bit, and arguably isn't strictly a living car-free issue, but it sure is a nice change from some of the vitriolic threads lately. Thank you all.
eofelis
01-25-06, 09:51 AM
A while back I saw a link somewhere to a site where they had bike trailers that folded out to some sort of little tent trailer. A Google search might turn up something.
I just searched around on the web a bit with no luck, but this link was interesting:
http://www.sherpacart.com/
+1 To last post! Some people on these boards need to relax! Or at very least get worked if they must up but not take out their rage at others and hence remain civil.
On the trailer thing,.. i am not sure i still reckon a Hennessey Hammock or such might be a better bet/bed. Or maybe a tent that you can set up at night on the platform of the trailer.
One thing which i have always thought is very important:
If one is going for the extended tour type thing one thing that can really make life way better is other people. Having some sort of conversations starter (URL on bike, postcards you sell with a link to Blog), looking neat and approachable can really get you far in terms of places to crash, a warm shower and maybe even a temporary job.
Artkansas
01-25-06, 10:37 AM
Concerning that thread i will say this,.. i am not in my 30's yet but am glad i am thinking about these things and even taking action. If one waits untill one is older to do this kind of introspection or to make changes it could end up being too late (sortoff)... or not.
Start your saving and investing now! Even a little now can pile up cash substantially with relatively little work. Getting a house that can appreciate is not a foolish thing to do. It all becomes much harder later.
For sure and that is exactly what i am doing (if you read my prevous posts, i think it is pretty clear).. but i am saving to DIY build not to buy (well maybe the land) in spain.
i don't live house free. however, i always keep myself in a situation where i can up and leave any time if i want to. i don't sign any lease more than month-to-month, and often i just don't have a lease at all. i currently have a car that it's possible to comfortably and easily sleep in, but soon i'll be trading it in for a bunch of touring gear, which'll serve basically the same purpose - if, for some reason, i feel the need to leave suddenly, i can. pack up the important stuff, put the rest in storage or just leave it, and disappear.
it's funny that i live like this, because it's not like i move all that often, or that i leave places suddenly. i just feel much more safe and happy when i know that if i want to i can leave whenever i want. otherwise, i feel trapped.
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