Road Bike Racing - Cornering

As the new season comes into view, let's review the techniques for cornering in hopes of reducing the number of cashes.

This photo (Shelby, NC 2002) shows riders going through a 90-degree turn at about 27mph.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2315/threucorners7ls.jpg

If this photo gives you the heeby jeebies, you should definitely practice the art.

Notice how far apart they are. Close, but not dangerously.
Notice that they aren't tense and full of fear.
Notice that their inside pedal is UP as they hit the apex.

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

It's a simple game of follow the leader.

Anyone have anything to add? Or can I safely assume that you'll be fine in your first crit?

This has some good insights on cornering at high speed:

http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

I will add something. I will add that you probably can take a turn a hell of a lot harder then you think without sliding out which tends to be a big fear in cornering. The danger in turns is running out of road because you either took the wrong line, are going to fast, or are just plain scared. If you are going to fast don’t hit the brakes rather push hard on the outside pedal and pull up on the left bar while pushing down on the right. Of course in the field you won’t get to choose your line unless you are in the front so in that case you simply have to trust the line of your leader and follow it.

Practicing in parking lots has helped me quite a bit. Also riding the same s-curves on a local road and getting a feel for what the bike can handle helps. You have to find your comfort zone. It also helps to follow someone who is better that you. It helps the fear because if you see that they can do it then so can you.

I agree..... It's amazing how far over one can go before the tires are gonna let go. Most ppl will chicken out before that point. The guy in the front of the shot has his inside foot down. I know he's paast the horror part of the corner but still risking loads. lol Lettin' it all hang out.

A couple of things, stay off your brakes (especially in crits) Nothing worse then to be on some tweakers wheel and they get all nervous and tap their brakes. It causes all sorts of havoc behind. Don't try to move up one or two places by chopping the corner. If you're going to move up, do it once the turn is done, or coming into the turn. And if you find yourself in the unenviable position of having someone try to fill the same spot as you in the corner, stay calm and adjust slightly, don't get all jiggy and make people say bad things to you. Other then that, have fun. My first race is this coming weekend.

^^^^^Hell yea about the brakes^^^^^
Remember if you keep your head it is possible for two riders to full lean on each other in a corner to keep each other up. Been there, done that, lived to tell. Talk to the other riders as well.

After racing my first 4 crits ever over the past 3 weeks I can say I feel pretty good about the corners. Some of it may have to do with the years I spent riding a sportbike on twisty roads. Though I certainly felt a lot more at ease with a 185mm rear tire compared to 23mm.

I've been running my 23mm tires at about 120psi.
I hadn't really thought about this until now, but would 25mm tires at 110 psi be better in a crit?

It may help somewhat on bumpy courses where you may skip over bumps with high-pressure tyres. Lower pressure will help you soak up the bumps. As would laterally-stiff, vertically-soft, box-section rims. However, you hardly ever exceed 65-80% of the traction limits of your equipment in a race anyway. Unless you're off in a solo-break on a madman downhill, you will hardly ever take a corner at the maximum theoretical speed with perfect kerb-to-kerb lines with a symmetrical apex. Most of the time, the pack will take a corner at speed such that both inside & outside edges will make it around the corner with parallel lines well below the cornering limits of the tyres.

However, I did notice more comfort and easier cornering control when going up to 21-22mm tyres at 110psi from my earlier 19-20mm tyres @ 130psi (I weighed 152-157 then).



Notice how far apart they are. Close, but not dangerously.
Notice that they aren't tense and full of fear.
Notice that their inside pedal is UP as they hit the apex.

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

It's a simple game of follow the leader.EXACTLY! You use the eyes of the guys ahead in the pack to guide you. You can literally "see" around the corner based upon watching the lines of the guys ahead of you. Then you follow their lines through perfectly. If they can make it around the corner OK, you can too. On the finishing stretches, a lot of times, they'll take weird lines like a super late- or early-apex lines to throw people into the bushes. If you're not paying attention and watching them and responding to their cornering lines, you'll find yourself running out of road and heading off the outside.

One of my favorite manuveurs on the final laps of a tight crit with corners within 200m of the finish is to set up in the top-5 in the last couple of laps. Then on the final lap, take off in a mad all-out sprint about 30-40m away from the corner. I'll be 1st into the corner and can take the ideal line. I'll carve as tight of a corner as possible given my speed, 95-98% of the cornering limit. Since I entered that corner faster than the pack, combined with my ideal line, I'll go around that corner 2-3mph faster than the guys behind me. Even though we're both coasting around the corner, I'm coasting 2-3mph faster and pull away. Combined iwth my tight line, late-apex, I'll be on the inside kerb and will be vertical sooner than them. As they're drifting to the outside coming out of the corner, I'll be on the inside, already vertical and sprinting on the pedals at 100% and pulling away. I can easily open up a 20-30m lead on that final corner alone, then just hold them off to take the finish... I can beat the hard-core sprinter-specialists easily because even though they might be stronger than me, they're not gonna be able to make up a 30m lead... heh, heh... ;)

Do most new Cat 5ers wreck in their first season?

Do most new Cat 5ers wreck in their first season?

some do, most do not.

After racing my first 4 crits ever over the past 3 weeks I can say I feel pretty good about the corners. Some of it may have to do with the years I spent riding a sportbike on twisty roads. Though I certainly felt a lot more at ease with a 185mm rear tire compared to 23mm.

I've been running my 23mm tires at about 120psi.
I hadn't really thought about this until now, but would 25mm tires at 110 psi be better in a crit?

185mm REAR tire?! Holy jesus...I hope that is a typo. Because if its not you have like a truck tire on your rear wheel!

185mm REAR tire?! Holy jesus...I hope that is a typo. Because if its not you have like a truck tire on your rear wheel!Nope, 180-190mm rear tyres are common on the high-power bikes. Some of these actually have enough power to spin the tyres on the rim-beads when using sticky R-compound tyres. Special adhesives are needed to glue the tyres to the rims (kinda like sew-up glue for tubulars).

http://www.gururacing.com/motorcycles/JanelleDecisions530.jpghttp://www.dpcars.net/748/rtire.jpg

One of my favorite manuveurs on the final laps of a tight crit with corners within 200m of the finish is to set up in the top-5 in the last couple of laps. Then on the final lap, take off in a mad all-out sprint about 30-40m away from the corner. I'll be 1st into the corner and can take the ideal line. I'll carve as tight of a corner as possible given my speed, 95-98% of the cornering limit. Since I entered that corner faster than the pack, combined with my ideal line, I'll go around that corner 2-3mph faster than the guys behind me. Even though we're both coasting around the corner, I'm coasting 2-3mph faster and pull away. Combined iwth my tight line, late-apex, I'll be on the inside kerb and will be vertical sooner than them. As they're drifting to the outside coming out of the corner, I'll be on the inside, already vertical and sprinting on the pedals at 100% and pulling away. I can easily open up a 20-30m lead on that final corner alone, then just hold them off to take the finish... I can beat the hard-core sprinter-specialists easily because even though they might be stronger than me, they're not gonna be able to make up a 30m lead... heh, heh... ;)

nice! our course has a big downhill section followed by a narrow left turn then a basically straight shot to the finish. attacking on the downhill works well, cause the pack gets nervous all together and slows a bit, and getting through the narrow left turn in top place is nice too. if only the straightaway wasn't about 3/4 mile long, the technique you described would work perfectly. it's too long to hold off a charging pack though...

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

Most important point in the whole post. This, (and not brake use), is what makes riding in lower Cat fields a pain in the a**. There is always one dude with 3 or 4 apexes per turn, and some other dude who decides that the line everyone else is taking isnt good enough and comes flying up to the turn inside of the field, arrrrggghhh!

IMO the only way to become truly proficient is to learn and practice counter steering, as has been described and debated in many threads here.

Voodoo,
as DannoXYZ's photo clearly shows, we're riding the wrong bikes...in the wrong state.

Voodoo,
as DannoXYZ's photo clearly shows, we're riding the wrong bikes...in the wrong state.

There was a bike in that picture?

where?

As the new season comes into view, let's review the techniques for cornering in hopes of reducing the number of cashes.

This photo (Shelby, NC 2002) shows riders going through a 90-degree turn at about 27mph.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2315/threucorners7ls.jpg

If this photo gives you the heeby jeebies, you should definitely practice the art.

Notice how far apart they are. Close, but not dangerously.
Notice that they aren't tense and full of fear.
Notice that their inside pedal is UP as they hit the apex.

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

It's a simple game of follow the leader.

Anyone have anything to add? Or can I safely assume that you'll be fine in your first crit?


I still use some hand-me-down old skool techniques - this ones my favorite: " Just look for a nice soft spot to land on. And make sure your parents aren't there; you're mother will puke and your dad will be pissed at $2700.00 worth of twisted metal. He won't even notice that you're bleeding to death."

Working for me since day one.

I still use some hand-me-down old skool techniques - this ones my favorite: " Just look for a nice soft spot to land on. And make sure your parents aren't there; you're mother will puke and your dad will be pissed at $2700.00 worth of twisted metal. He won't even notice that you're bleeding to death."

Working for me since day one.

HAHA. That would probably be about what it would be like if I crashed in front of my 'rents. Heh.

Nope, 180-190mm rear tyres are common on the high-power bikes. Some of these actually have enough power to spin the tyres on the rim-beads when using sticky R-compound tyres. Special adhesives are needed to glue the tyres to the rims (kinda like sew-up glue for tubulars).

http://www.gururacing.com/motorcycles/JanelleDecisions530.jpghttp://www.dpcars.net/748/rtire.jpg

Weird... I once crashed my car into the guardrail in the background of that pic. Latigo canyon raod i believe. :P

Nope, 180-190mm rear tyres are common on the high-power bikes. Some of these actually have enough power to spin the tyres on the rim-beads when using sticky R-compound tyres. Special adhesives are needed to glue the tyres to the rims (kinda like sew-up glue for tubulars).


Yup... here's 180mm rear tire on my ducati. Those are R-compound tires too, you can see the tire has been worn completely to the edge. Actually, most of this tire's life has been spent at full lean :D

http://pic4.pic.wretch.cc/photos/9/s/sleepystarz/3/1129006381.jpg

It really does amaze me though how much a bicycle with 23mm tires can corner.

Billy

As the new season comes into view, let's review the techniques for cornering in hopes of reducing the number of cashes.

This photo (Shelby, NC 2002) shows riders going through a 90-degree turn at about 27mph.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2315/threucorners7ls.jpg

If this photo gives you the heeby jeebies, you should definitely practice the art.

Notice how far apart they are. Close, but not dangerously.
Notice that they aren't tense and full of fear.
Notice that their inside pedal is UP as they hit the apex.

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

It's a simple game of follow the leader.

Anyone have anything to add? Or can I safely assume that you'll be fine in your first crit?
I don't do crits.

some guys are in the drops and some have their hands behind the brake hoods. How much does it matter which you do? I can see that if you're in the drops, then it's harder to lock bars with someone else. But beyond that, is there any other reason to choose one over the other?

You can brake faster in the drops...

And more assuredly.

Lower center of gravity.

What, no action shots?

My stock rear tire is a 190, but I also run a 180 GP tires for better transitioning and lean angles:D

Weird... I once crashed my car into the guardrail in the background of that pic. Latigo canyon raod i believe. :P
Did she cut you off? or were you not paying attention?

As the new season comes into view, let's review the techniques for cornering in hopes of reducing the number of cashes.

This photo (Shelby, NC 2002) shows riders going through a 90-degree turn at about 27mph.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2315/threucorners7ls.jpg

If this photo gives you the heeby jeebies, you should definitely practice the art.

Notice how far apart they are. Close, but not dangerously.
Notice that they aren't tense and full of fear.
Notice that their inside pedal is UP as they hit the apex.

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

It's a simple game of follow the leader.

Anyone have anything to add? Or can I safely assume that you'll be fine in your first crit?

And stay off the brakes! Also, don't get aggro in the corner just to move one or two spots! From this picture, it is probably in the early laps of the race. When the speed picks up, it will be single file through the corner.

What, no action shots?

My stock rear tire is a 190, but I also run a 180 GP tires for better transitioning and lean angles:DHere's some action shots for ya!

http://www.gururacing.com/motorcycles/CuteGirlOnMotorcycle.jpg
http://www.gururacing.com/cycling/CorneringLimit.jpg

While we are throwing up all of this M-Cycle stuff. Those of you who also ride, and havn't read "A Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code go buy it. Those of you who have it, read the chapter titled "What you see", and apply the discussion of Target Fixation to your Crit riding (and to a lesser degree the chapter on Steering). When you understand this your cornering will improve dramatically, especially with respect to making minimal corrections in a turn (one apex).

Another thing about cornering: when you enter a corner, most new guys have a tendency to sit up so they can see better. In reality, you need to get low over the front wheel to better distribute your weight. Staying in the drops helps with this. Like they said, just follow the guy in front of you.

As the new season comes into view, let's review the techniques for cornering in hopes of reducing the number of cashes.

This photo (Shelby, NC 2002) shows riders going through a 90-degree turn at about 27mph.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2315/threucorners7ls.jpg

If this photo gives you the heeby jeebies, you should definitely practice the art.

Notice how far apart they are. Close, but not dangerously.
Notice that they aren't tense and full of fear.
Notice that their inside pedal is UP as they hit the apex.

What you can't see here is that these guys (Cats 1 and 2) made just ONE turn, not three or four little turns. That's important. That's what takes some practice. No one is creating their own special line through the turn.

It's a simple game of follow the leader.

Anyone have anything to add? Or can I safely assume that you'll be fine in your first crit?

Sweat mother or Moses!!!! That's my downtown! The Shelby Crits were awesome. I'm in the third floor of the bank where the start/finish line is - er -was. We had a great view of the races.