Bicycle Mechanics - Why is Campnagnolo superior quality to Shimano?

Most are aware that Campy is more expensive than Shimano.
There must be a reason. I have heard Campy chain-rings and other components outlast Shimano's substantially. I have also heard that Campy components are more serviceable where you can replace more small parts in lieu of replacing entire components. Is the cost difference worth the investment after 25,000 miles or less? :beer:

Not another Shimano Campagnolo Debate :)


Some thing Shimano is better some think Campagnolo is better, personaly I like campagnolo. Cost difference is not that bad :) On average you can repair campy parts down the road while with shimano it seems you have to replace. That is true, other then that it is personal opinion.

Campy parts have prestige. You can impress your friends if your parts are Campy - just like wearing fine jewelry.

Originally posted by The Fife
Most are aware that Campy is more expensive than Shimano.
There must be a reason. I have heard Campy chain-rings and other components outlast Shimano's substantially. I have also heard that Campy components are more serviceable where you can replace more small parts in lieu of replacing entire components. Is the cost difference worth the investment after 25,000 miles or less? :beer: One can 'hear' alot of BS. Try them both and buy what you like best.The rebuildability or fixability, applies mostly to the shifters.

Oh, and there is always the fact that Campy was around a long time before Schimano (or even Suntour or Simplex). Time in a business and experience building and refining something usually account for a better product over all.

Just like a Viper is fast, it ain't no Ferrari!!

Sometimes it isn't just about getting there. Sometimes it is about the experience of getting there!

Great reply wlevey. Good info. Old Campy Record (I'll post a photo eventually) from the early eighties (1982) that I purchased new back in the toe clip and strap days that I've ridden tens of thousands of miles shows amazingly no sign of wear and it still works like new. The stuff is definitely "bomb proof".
This year I finally built my second Campy Record bike in 20 years because I wanted lightness and shifting from the brake hoods to help me keep up with the local fast group hill rides. Was wondering how the new Record compared with DA for durability and reliability. I do like the downshifting with one swipe and the overall quality while riding the bike a few thousand miles this summer and am initially impressed.
Since Pokey has confirmed the shifters can be rebuilt versus Shimano replacing; that alone makes the extra dollar worth it for me as I plan on riding this bike for perhaps another 20 years.
I do ride some Shimano bikes but they are not ridden nearly as much as the Campy is so I cannot compare. :beer:

Campy has had its share of clinkers, too, folks. Ever hear of the Athena Gruppo? And there were their first forays into indexed shifting, was it Nuovo Record?

As for serviceability, having to replace a serviceable part just because the company doesn't do things that way gives me heartburn. But so do service parts that cost d@mn near as much as the complete component I want to repair!

I'm not jumping on the Shimano bandwagon. That argument is for people who don't have enough to worry about, IMO. They're both good, and they're different. Buy the one you like (and can afford).

In my experience, Shimano and Campagnolo are pretty much equal quality across pricepoints. I'm not quite sure where people get the idea that Campy is so much more expensive than Shimano... The equivalents are aout the same price... Ultegra and Centaur are both around $600-$650, Dura Ace is about $1000 and Chorus is about $950...

I personally prefer Campy, but I wouldn't say that is so much better than Shimano. It's just my preference.

Ultegra and Centaur are both around $600-$650, Dura Ace is about $1000 and Chorus is about $950...

Are you comparing DuraAce to Chorus? I don't think they are in the same league. I think you need to compare DuraAce to Record. At branfordbike, the Record Gruppo is $1,300. The DuraAce Gruppo is $996.

Originally posted by knifun


Are you comparing DuraAce to Chorus? I don't think they are in the same league. I think you need to compare DuraAce to Record. At branfordbike, the Record Gruppo is $1,300. The DuraAce Gruppo is $996. I think DA compares to Chorus. Functionally there is no diff between record and chorus.Records uses some Ti and CF bits to reduce weight a bit.

DuraAce uses some Ti as well. That is why it is closer to Record than Chorus.

price, features, performance and finish are all comparable to Chorus.
DA is not a competitor for Record customers or Campy customers wanting DA-equivalent components.

I disagree with your first line, but agree with your second ... customers that want to buy Record will not buy DA, but isn't the opposite true as well... customers that want to buy DA will not buy Record?

Originally posted by knifun
I disagree with your first line, but agree with your second ... customers that want to buy Record will not buy DA, but isn't the opposite true as well... customers that want to buy DA will not buy Record? You generalize to much and don't get it either.That's not the way racerX said it either. I have both DA and Record. A scientefic experiment to sort out the applesauce and horse puckey.DA has no CF, so there.

Originally posted by knifun
I disagree with your first line, but agree with your second ... customers that want to buy Record will not buy DA, but isn't the opposite true as well... customers that want to buy DA will not buy Record?

Shimano customers that want Record-level components have no choices. Chorus is DA-equivalent.
Record, besides the carbon fiber (which DA doesn't offer) has the option of differential front/rear brakes (which DA doesn't offer), Ti parts (in more than DA offers), 10 speed (which DA doesn't offer), superior quality control (which DA doesn't offer), superior polishing and finishing (which DA doesn't offer), aesthetic appeal of Record (DA is easily confused with Ultegra and has none of the exotic appeal of Record), resale value (not important to me but some take it into account).
There is probably a 1/2 dozen other reasons to justify the price but that's the way it is. Just because DA is Shimano's top group doesn't mean it compares to Campy's top group.
What is Toyota's top car? Does it compare to Ferrari's top car? Doesn't take anything away from the quality or performance of Toyota but no customer is going to compare it to Ferrari.

How can this question go on and on...

Italian ingenuity makes their technology a work of art and repairable... Why is a Ferrari a Ferrari and a Lamborghini Countach the fastest precision stock piece of art you'll find=Campy Record...

Japan is country that refines and builds repeatable technolgy at reasonable production cost. Their best... NSX Acura and the Skyline GT-R=DurAce... No bad autos, just good sound cost effective autos that run for ever, then stop. You have to buy a new one because repairing makes little sense.

How can this question go on and on...

Religious arguments have a habit of doing that. ;)

Cheers...Gary

Originally posted by RacerX
What is Toyota's top car? Does it compare to Ferrari's top car?

1) Since we are talking race level components, I assume we are talking the same with Toyota vs. Ferrari. Both manufacturers top cars are Formula 1 and yes, they are fairly similar since they both have to follow the same rules, regulations, requirements of FIA, but it is a little harder to compare the two head-to-head since this is only Toyotas first year. Toyota didn't do too bad with 2 points tying with Minardi and Arrows - and this is only their first season. Toyota vs Ferrari in CART and IRL, Toyota wins everytime. Did you know the TRD group of Toyota even makes NASCAR motors? Toyota beats Ferrari here as well.

2) Just because a part is finished better or that it is CF doesn't make it perform better. You analysis of Toyota vs. Ferrari (production cars) is right on the money. Toyota is FAR superior to Ferrari when it comes to reliability and maintenance costs, the same as DA compared to Record. Ferraris might be a little faster, but you will be spending $$$$$ to keep them on the road! They are very tempermental, break alot, and require MUCH maintenance compared to Toyota (just like DA vs Record). I have a Toyota SR5 truck with 250,000 miles and it is just getting broken in. How many F355's or 360's can say the same thing?

I have raced both DA and Record and IMHO, DA is far superior when it comes to extreme usage, like shifting under load while climbing, etc. To be honest, I have not ridden a Chorus gruppo bike, but I can't see how Chorus is on the same par as DA if the Record gruppo isn't. I can't see paying that much more for a Record gruppo just because it looks prettier and it has a little CF. In fact, if you know anything about bicycle frames, if you compare two exact framesets, one with a CF rear end and the other with AL rear end, the all AL bike will be lighter. So, one has to think that maybe Campy could have made the Record gruppo even lighter sticking with all AL alloy? I don't know, maybe the higher polish as you claim on the Record gruppo makes it that much more aerodynamic?

'Nuff said

Originally posted by knifun

1) Since we are talking race level components, I assume we are talking the same with Toyota vs. Ferrari. Both manufacturers top cars are Formula 1 and yes, they are fairly similar since they both have to follow the same rules, regulations, requirements of FIA, but it is a little harder to compare the two head-to-head since this is only Toyotas first year. Toyota didn't do too bad with 2 points tying with Minardi and Arrows - and this is only their first season. Toyota vs Ferrari in CART and IRL, Toyota wins everytime. Did you know the TRD group of Toyota even makes NASCAR motors? Toyota beats Ferrari here as well.

I wasn't speaking about race products at all. All those autos I referenced are for consumer purchase. Nor do I consider race cars or their components a refection of a high technology culture. Anybody can throw money around to build outragious technology. What the Italian culture makes in general verses Japanese culture for consumers to buy is a reflection.



2) Just because a part is finished better or that it is CF doesn't make it perform better. You analysis of Toyota vs. Ferrari (production cars) is right on the money. Toyota is FAR superior to Ferrari when it comes to reliability and maintenance costs, the same as DA compared to Record. Ferraris might be a little faster, but you will be spending $$$$$ to keep them on the road! They are very tempermental, break alot, and require MUCH maintenance compared to Toyota (just like DA vs Record). I have a Toyota SR5 truck with 250,000 miles and it is just getting broken in. How many F355's or 360's can say the same thing?

I've owned many exotic autos, no Japanese autos...and exotics are NOT tempermental nor does the newer technology require excessive repairing compared to the average "Fix or Repair daily" FORD these days. Yes, a tune up is more expensive on a duo-turbo charged BMW or a Dino Ferrari, verses a Ford or a Toyota Camary. However, who wants to buy a fifteen year old Ford or Toyota and save it because it could be a collectors item.

If DA breaks down, one is likely to purchase another completed unit verses a piece to repair. Campy allows purchasing of components and repair. Campy also enhances resale on any bike...(name recognition) Although, japanese technology is dependable, IMO it holds little value if on a great frame. Which bike do you think would have greater value, a great frame with DA or Campy Record in twenty years?



I have raced both DA and Record and IMHO, DA is far superior when it comes to extreme usage, like shifting under load while climbing, etc. To be honest, I have not ridden a Chorus gruppo bike, but I can't see how Chorus is on the same par as DA if the Record gruppo isn't. I can't see paying that much more for a Record gruppo just because it looks prettier and it has a little CF. In fact, if you know anything about bicycle frames, if you compare two exact framesets, one with a CF rear end and the other with AL rear end, the all AL bike will be lighter. So, one has to think that maybe Campy could have made the Record gruppo even lighter sticking with all AL alloy? I don't know, maybe the higher polish as you claim on the Record gruppo makes it that much more aerodynamic? 'Nuff said

With todays technology we can get completed bike weights down to 14lbs. Going to AL in components is not a good thing to me. And, yes, all AL can be lighter in some cases. But, the ride is not going to be as enjoyable as one with CF on long rides. I have a new Fondriest Titan Ti/CF frame :) with full Campy Record 10 speed gruppo :D ... Every piece is a work of finished art, fast at 16.8lbs and strong enough to handle my 210lbs of climbing power easily. With minor adjustments, I can get the weight even lower. If kept in excellent condition, this bike will last the rest of my life, and be worth buko bucks after I am dead and gone. Sorry, IMO can't say the same about Shimano or Japanese anything :)

Like everything in this world... it all comes down to MHO...and experience.
:beer: :D

OK, this is taking an analogy too literally. First of all, CART isn't even real racing anymore and Ferrari has been successful in F1 for about as long as Toyota has been in existence. Does Ferrari even make NASCAR engines???? Why compare that? Ferrari is interested in the top motorsport which is F1- even CART, NASCAR and IRL drivers will tell you that F1 is the top. Ferrari has been dominant in F1 because it has a spectacular program, experience and drivers. It also has a rich history in F1 that verges on myth. AL frames with carbon rears are heavier than straight AL because of the heavy joint between the 2 materials NOT because cf is heavier. Not that any of that matters.

How does Record require more maintainence than DA???? People site the exact things you mention as the reasons Record is superior to DA---shifting under load, reliability and long-life. Anyone that rides both will tell you it is preference at the very least and under the "extreme" conditions you describe, Record will outperform DA. As for looks, even someone that doesn't know anything about bikes can tell Record looks alot more expensive than DA. Sorry but aesthetic appeal is a big factor in bikes too and Campy simply rules the roost on that.

If you need to go on with this discussion, please go to my new thread/poll on beating a dead horse or do a search and find the 100 threads done about campy vs. shimano.


Originally posted by knifun


1) Since we are talking race level components, I assume we are talking the same with Toyota vs. Ferrari. Both manufacturers top cars are Formula 1 and yes, they are fairly similar since they both have to follow the same rules, regulations, requirements of FIA, but it is a little harder to compare the two head-to-head since this is only Toyotas first year. Toyota didn't do too bad with 2 points tying with Minardi and Arrows - and this is only their first season. Toyota vs Ferrari in CART and IRL, Toyota wins everytime. Did you know the TRD group of Toyota even makes NASCAR motors? Toyota beats Ferrari here as well.

2) Just because a part is finished better or that it is CF doesn't make it perform better. You analysis of Toyota vs. Ferrari (production cars) is right on the money. Toyota is FAR superior to Ferrari when it comes to reliability and maintenance costs, the same as DA compared to Record. Ferraris might be a little faster, but you will be spending $$$$$ to keep them on the road! They are very tempermental, break alot, and require MUCH maintenance compared to Toyota (just like DA vs Record). I have a Toyota SR5 truck with 250,000 miles and it is just getting broken in. How many F355's or 360's can say the same thing?

I have raced both DA and Record and IMHO, DA is far superior when it comes to extreme usage, like shifting under load while climbing, etc. To be honest, I have not ridden a Chorus gruppo bike, but I can't see how Chorus is on the same par as DA if the Record gruppo isn't. I can't see paying that much more for a Record gruppo just because it looks prettier and it has a little CF. In fact, if you know anything about bicycle frames, if you compare two exact framesets, one with a CF rear end and the other with AL rear end, the all AL bike will be lighter. So, one has to think that maybe Campy could have made the Record gruppo even lighter sticking with all AL alloy? I don't know, maybe the higher polish as you claim on the Record gruppo makes it that much more aerodynamic?

'Nuff said

You buy your Record, I will buy my Dura Ace. They are both good (and equivalent) items and are enough to do the job. You will probably get to the finish line first since your pocketbook will be lighter :D
'nuff said.

hate to break it to you but people buying Record aren't going to be lighter in the pocketbook. If they were, they would be buying centaur.
If they were budget minded and lacking good judgement, than they would go with DA:D
How many times do you say 'nuff said before you actually have said enough?:D

Originally posted by Garbear
How can this question go on and on...

Italian ingenuity makes their technology a work of art and repairable... It goes on because there is no answer correct to 4 places,therefore there is no answer,just alot of applesauce...The repairability of campy is overblown and applies mainly to the shifters.The repairability issue is another one that should be on the applesauce pile.