Motorist vs. Courier in Toronto

[Keith99]

Can Canadians carry pepper spray? I'm NOT condoning any of the actions leading up to the incident, but this is exactly the type of confrontation that could be defused with a dose of the pepper spray once the driver was out of the auto attacking the cyclist.

Dog-n-driver spray is my at-the-ready defense for this type of situation....

Really?

Lets see driver gets out of car, they scuffle. Driver leaves.

Driver comes back and starts thing up again.

That is the story as the latest reports have it.

Let's add in pepper spray.

river gets out of car, they scuffle. Driver get's pepper sprayed. Driver leaves.

Driver comes back with gun, or at least bat (since that is what happened later with the photog).

Pepper spary would in this just be a new level of escalation.

[Bekologist]

I think the more likely scenario would be "driver writhing on ground blinded from pepper spray" and "cyclist leaves scene to call police from safe location"

[SamHouston]

Sam, you coninually misread/manipulate my posts until you have something to talk about. I never said all arguments/confrontation always come to physical violence. I said that if you do what she did you should expect what she got. She is an idiot. There. Said and done. Perhaps my world view is shifted because of my enviroment but I know that if you open someones door in Richmond there's a chance that the barrel of a gun is the last thing you see.

If you confront someone you should expect things will escalate to violence. That way you will never be caught off guard. She looked like she expected him to meekly drive a way and was surprised when he didn't. He was an ass and she was an stupid.

Guy if you can just point to the manipulation of your own statements by me you'll have my heartfelt apology.

Someone said something quotable on the Citynoise thread below the photos.

First someone posted "You should avoid confrontation at all costs"

An anonymous person revised that statement to what they felt was more accurate; "You should avoid confrontation at all cost if you live in a society that is not free"

[ajay677]

Can Canadians carry pepper spray? I'm NOT condoning any of the actions leading up to the incident, but this is exactly the type of confrontation that could be defused with a dose of the pepper spray once the driver was out of the auto attacking the cyclist.

Dog-n-driver spray is my at-the-ready defense for this type of situation....

In Canada you can carry dog spray (pepper spray), for use against viscious animals. If you admit to the authorities that you are carrying it for self-defense or you use it against another person you will at least be charged with possessing a prohibited weapon, perhaps assault with a weapon, possession of a weapon dangerous to public peace.

[closetbiker]

...but really folks, what has this to do with cycling?

About the only thing I can see is that it's giving cyclists a bit of a black eye by having a cyclist being brought into a unnessasary scrap, a la Jerry Springer, and having the image of cycling tarnished by simple association without having had anything to do with what's happening here.

This kind of exposure to the masses (front page in a city of 4.5 million) is pretty destructive to the good work in the difficult progress made in positive public imaging and perception of cycling, that many, many hard working advocates have spent so much time on, all to make the streets safer for you and me.

(the image of the enraged bully driver picking on someone weaker than himself is already a pretty widespread perception, so not much damge done there)

[Keith99]

I think the more likely scenario would be "driver writhing on ground blinded from pepper spray" and "cyclist leaves scene to call police from safe location"

How about drivers girlfriend takes out cyclist with baseball bat from behind and skates on any legal action claiming she feared for her and her boyfriends safety.

[rvabiker]

Carrying pepper spray is never a bad idea. It is for the most part an excellent defensive weapon. It is easy to use , quick working, and it will not inhibit escape. Just saying...

[TRaffic Jammer]

And can be used to spice up a bland meal in a pinch..... :p

[Peterpan1]

"but I know that if you open someones door in Richmond there's a chance that the barrel of a gun is the last thing you see."

Right and it might even be worse in Bagdad... Toronto is the kind of place where 10 million people are in the general area, with several million in the downtown, and they go nuts when 70 people are murdered in one year, almost all from the same small group of gangbangers - should actually be a positive. You can't carry any weapons, most people don't, and in this case while there are some fairly tense looking pictures nobody was actually hurt.

"If you confront someone you should expect things will escalate to violence."

You are certainly creating an escalation, but violence is not the necesarry outcome around here, though I agree that it can't be ruled out.

"That way you will never be caught off guard."

True

"She looked like she expected him to meekly drive a way and was surprised when he didn't. He was an ass and she was an stupid"

Hard to argue with that. I can't really tell from the pictures I saw, but she may have the looks to get away with this kind of thing much of the time.

Pepper spray is nasty stuff, as well as being genrally irritating it's supposed to shut down the ability to breath, enough to reduce functioning. Mace is supposed to hurt, as well as cause nausea eye watering and so forth. So pepper spray is supposed to be pretty reliable, but it doesn't always work, so if you PP some guy you better have a plan B, ranging from how to deal with the guy who is now a lot more PO than when you started, to how to revive a guy who collapses.

[lxpatterson]

Can Canadians carry pepper spray? I'm NOT condoning any of the actions leading up to the incident, but this is exactly the type of confrontation that could be defused with a dose of the pepper spray once the driver was out of the auto attacking the cyclist.

Dog-n-driver spray is my at-the-ready defense for this type of situation....

i hear pepperspray doesnt work with serious crazies. I think it was earlier this year in Toronto the cops had to blast someone bc they pepper sprayed this mental dude a few times and he was still waving his knife around...well, this person was obviously out of his head crazy.

[slagjumper]

i hear pepperspray doesnt work with serious crazies. I think it was earlier this year in Toronto the cops had to blast someone bc they pepper sprayed this mental dude a few times and he was still waving his knife around...well, this person was obviously out of his head crazy.

You can acclimate to pepper spray, just like spicy food. You just have to subject your eyes to it a dozen or more times. Ouch. Seems like anyone doing that would have a silencer on the gun they just shot you with.

I heard yesterday that CMU did a study where they yelled at students doing math problems. The ones that showed signs of intimidation did much worse than the students who got angry. So perhaps getting angry in such situations and acting on it to some extent will make a person better able to deal with what is going to happen next, like duck a punch.

[TRaffic Jammer]

It's the adrenaline

[Karst]

If the courier had just picked up the bag, stuck it on the windshield, perhaps under the wiper, then she would have been in a much more reasonable position legally. Of course, that could still have set him off, but it couldn't be seen as assault very easily.

It's better not to get confrontational, though. There are several reasonable options to pursue. For example:

1. Note the license number and car make info, and inform the police that you had observed littering by a young guy in a car with the following license number. (I know---this isn't Mayberry, but still. If the police had any real gumption, they'd pay the guy a friendly visit; they are not always too busy.)

2. Use the license info and car type to determine who the guy is and his address. Send him a friendly but firm letter. (I know, getting that info might be easier said than done. But it can be done in many jurisdictions, through open records requirements.)

3. Write a letter to the editor of the paper about littering, describing what was littered and give the car description, license info, and description of the driver and passenger. (Shaming the culprit, even anonymously, reminds others to be more thoughtful.)

4. Follow the car at a discrete distance. Maybe the car isn't far from home. Or maybe the guy parks nearby for shopping or a movie. Wait till he leaves, then put the garbage on the windshield with a note.

I think it is obvious that there often are relatively non-confrontational alternatives that have the potential to get the message across, without resorting to violence, illegal acts, or behaviors guaranteed to set off the occasional person with anger management issues.

Now, if we could all just remember such admonitions in the heat of the moment.

[TRaffic Jammer]

Well let's look at what has happened.....

World Class Ahole caught on camera....
Published on the cover of Canada's largest paper.

I'm guessing .... his people at work have seen it, including his boss, maybe some of his clients.
His g/f at the scene has most likely left him. His friends have all turned their backs on him, and his parents have disowned him. I'm thinking the trickle down effect from this has barely begun for this loser. lol....SUCKER. Bet he never EVER for a second thought his life could potentially be ruined when he jumped out of his wheels.

Look before you leap,
Think twice....

AND get Chuck Norris to do your dirty work :p

[JASON R. TOMSIC]

Wow. And I thought I had a bad day.

[shabbasuraj]

Many wade into bike-car brawl online
More than 100,000 hits on website documenting fight
`Psycho motorists strike again,' one angry posting proclaims
Jan. 31, 2006. 08:38 AM
BETSY POWELL
CRIME REPORTER

A series of dramatic photographs capturing a quintessential urban confrontation — a daytime brawl between a bike courier and a motorist in downtown Toronto — has sparked a raging debate in cyberspace.
The vigorous, sometimes vitriolic venting weighs in on a host of topics from pedestrian versus motorist rights and conjecture about the nationalities and sexual preferences of the combatants, to littering and whether the photographer should have put down his camera and stepped in to stop the violence.
The incident apparently began after a man tossed food onto the street in Kensington Market and escalated when the cyclist threw the food back into his car.
"Psycho motorists strike again!" said one posting on the website Citynoise.org, where photographer Adam Krawesky posted the images last Thursday.
Visitor traffic has since gone through the roof with more than 100,000 hits being logged by yesterday afternoon. The images are also circulating widely on the Internet and appear on dozens of websites as far away as The Netherlands, some in foreign languages, with links provided to Citynoise.
But many postings also sided with the unidentified man.
"The ***** chucked food in his car. Yeah, he's a moron for littering, but she made it personal ... it's nice she's so passionate about the environment that she seeks personal confrontation by shoving food back into people's laps, but honestly, what did she expect?" reads one.
Krawesky said while the incident highlights the "gulf between cyclists and motorists, typically male motorists," the subsequent online discussion mirrors another aspect of human interaction.
"It's interesting how the Internet reflects in one way when you're in a car — in the same way the anonymity of the Internet and posting all sorts of threatening, awful things that you would never do if you were actually face to face," says the 28-year-old who works as an editor at Citynoise.org.
Krawesky posted 15 images of the altercation Jan. 26, several days after the incident on Augusta Ave., near Nassau St., in the heart of downtown's fabled and crowded Kensington Market.
He'd just finished photographing an elderly woman wearing a colourful headscarf when "it just exploded in front of my eyes ... and my first reaction is camera to the eye and start shooting."
The woman in the photos, a bicycle courier named Leah, said yesterday she is uneasy with her newfound Internet fame but chose to add her voice to the blog to tell her version about what happened.
It unravelled in two stages, she explained. She was out shopping — it was a Saturday and she wasn't making deliveries — and was locking up her bike when she heard someone yelling.
"He had popped open his car door and whipped his food on the road, like a beef patty on a bun in a paper bag, and then slammed the door ... so obviously now, against better judgment, I leapt up, grabbed the food, opened his door, shouted something about `Don't litter in my neighbourhood,' and threw it back in his car and shut the door. He lost it."
She then added: "I understand, that's your personal space and in hindsight maybe it wasn't the best way to approach it."
What followed happened fast. She said he jumped out of the car, and threw two coffees at her, and the two tussled and yelled at each other. She says her bike lock key, worn on a bracelet around her wrist, scratched his car — she says unintentionally. The fracas continued, with bystanders jumping in to separate the sparring pair.
Leah said in five years as a courier she has had no physical confrontations.
"There's a lot of postings about `self-righteous bike couriers' but I'm not like that. I hate litter," she said adding she makes her son pick up 10 pieces of garbage in the park "before he's allowed to play."
"I do say stuff to people and they usually yell back and that's fine, move along. But I'm not generally in the practice of handing people back their garbage." Someone did post the man's identity — and workplace — on the website but Krawesky had it removed for fear of things ramping up further.
The day of the incident, police arrived at the scene and interviewed the two but did not lay any charges — another source of fiery discussion on the Web.
One posting wondered how so many people could offer "random speculation" based only on "a few pictures which can be taken a lot of different ways." He reprimanded the photographer for being "a jerk for taking photos as he watched."
On that, Krawesky has the last word — at least in print.
"My first reaction is shoot — because I'm a photographer — just like her first reaction is to throw the trash back in the car. She understood that."
Additional articles by Betsy Powell

[lxpatterson]

Well let's look at what has happened.....

World Class Ahole caught on camera....
Published on the cover of Canada's largest paper.

I'm guessing .... his people at work have seen it, including his boss, maybe some of his clients.
His g/f at the scene has most likely left him. His friends have all turned their backs on him, and his parents have disowned him. I'm thinking the trickle down effect from this has barely begun for this loser. lol....SUCKER. Bet he never EVER for a second thought his life could potentially be ruined when he jumped out of his wheels.

Look before you leap,
Think twice....

AND get Chuck Norris to do your dirty work :p

yeah i agree that's got to be pretty humiliating. my brother showed me the star article on monday when i got home, he was like, that's the ******* you showed me on the internet the other day.

[baj32161]

They are both idiots.

[shabbasuraj]

They are both idiots.

no.

[rvabiker]

Anyone who attempts to absolve the messenger of guilt is themself an idiot. She was completely wrong to do what she did. He threw trash and like someone in the article said, she made it personal. Any number of people could have been seriously hurt if that man had a gun instead of a bat. He is a jackass and deserves what he gets. She is an idiot and I hope she has learned her lesson.

[soda]

rva, wouldn't it just be easier to say "see my posts above"? You're message hasn't changed since your first post. We got it...

[scarry]

I get the feeling you litter, blow smoke in peoples faces, scare small children, and beat puppies with golf clubs. You just hate it when you get cought.

She's a hero, and we need more people like her.

Anyone who attempts to absolve the messenger of guilt is themself an idiot. She was completely wrong to do what she did. He threw trash and like someone in the article said, she made it personal. Any number of people could have been seriously hurt if that man had a gun instead of a bat. He is a jackass and deserves what he gets. She is an idiot and I hope she has learned her lesson.

[closetbiker]

She may have been wrong, but I admire her for what she did.

It takes a special set of orbs to throw that right back at a big goof who was likely to act the way he did, and she seemed to do pretty well at standing her ground against a much bigger opponent.

It's also likely that a guy who would do something like he did, wouldn't have taken what the normal punishment for his offense would be (maybe a ticket) to heart and changed his behaviour the next time. Most likely, he would have said the ticket was wrong and officials should spend their time looking for "real" problem makers.

I think she saw this guy needed some "extra" lesson to make him think twice next time.

The whole incident really does bring into question the best way to deal with a problem though. In relation to the next guy who cuts me off in traffic and I meet up with him at the next light, is it best to hit his hood, yell at him, or stand in front of him daring him to hit me the best way to handle the problem, or is it best to take down some details and call the cops? Would the driver change his behaviour in either case? Maybe it depends on how mature the driver (or the cyclist) is.

[rvabiker]

Soda...wouldn't it have been easier not to make a smart ass comment and just let everyone roll their eyes when I post?

Scarry...maybe you should take time to read the actual posts, you'd sound much more intelligent.

[scarry]

Scarry...maybe you should take time to read the actual posts, you'd sound much more intelligent.


Except for the stuff I learned in kindergarten, I'm just a dumbass. You on the other hand...........

[genec]

She may have been wrong, but I admire her for what she did.

It takes a special set of orbs to throw that right back at a big goof who was likely to act the way he did, and she seemed to do pretty well at standing her ground against a much bigger opponent.

It's also likely that a guy who would do something like he did, wouldn't have taken what the normal punishment for his offense would be (maybe a ticket) to heart and changed his behaviour the next time. Most likely, he would have said the ticket was wrong and officials should spend their time looking for "real" problem makers.

I think she saw this guy needed some "extra" lesson to make him think twice next time.

The whole incident really does bring into question the best way to deal with a problem though. In relation to the next guy who cuts me off in traffic and I meet up with him at the next light, is it best to hit his hood, yell at him, or stand in front of him daring him to hit me the best way to handle the problem, or is it best to take down some details and call the cops? Would the driver change his behaviour in either case? Maybe it depends on how mature the driver (or the cyclist) is.


+1 I do too. Interesting that there is another thread on A&S asking if bikers are wimps.

Look at it another way... while the outcome of both their behaviours was ultimately wrong, she had the moral upper hand... she did what she did for the right reason... he was just trash.

[stokell]

In Canada you can carry dog spray (pepper spray), for use against viscious animals. If you admit to the authorities that you are carrying it for self-defense or you use it against another person you will at least be charged with possessing a prohibited weapon, perhaps assault with a weapon, possession of a weapon dangerous to public peace.

Just to clarify, in Canada:
Pepper spray in your pocket or bag is carrying a concealed weapon. Using pepper spray on a human is administering a noxious thing.

On another note, just in case you think this happens all the time in Toronto, I ride to work everyday, year around. It is extremely rare for a motorist to attack, even when as some believe he was provoked. Toronto is known as a clean city, and many Torontonians, including this writer give one day a year as a volunteer to clean public spaces.

Let's all take a deep breath, put away our Magnums and pepper spray and work towards living together in harmony.

[FastFreddy]

Does anybody know why the road-rage guy hasn’t been arrested and charged? Or has he? I can’t help but think that there are significant facts that haven’t made it this forum.

The [now mega-huge] blog on citynoise.org is an entertaining read. The photographer should win an award.

[scarry]

The victim declined to press charges.

Does anybody know why the road-rage guy hasn’t been arrested and charged? Or has he? I can’t help but think that there are significant facts that haven’t made it this forum.

The [now mega-huge] blog on citynoise.org is an entertaining read. The photographer should win an award.

[FastFreddy]

The victim declined to press charges.

There were at least two victims: the cyclist (who did have a role in provoking road-rage guy) and the photographer (who was threatened by road-rage guy with a baseball bat).

The second case seems “clean” – I think that there’s more to this story – why isn’t he being charged with that assault?

Incidentally, the blog includes statements supposedly by the “white vest” woman and her brother – who defend road-rage guy with a different version of the events. I didn’t buy their explanation.

[scarry]

such is life in cyber land. There were also allegations to the whole thing being faked.

There were at least two victims: the cyclist (who did have a role in provoking road-rage guy) and the photographer (who was threatened by road-rage guy with a baseball bat).

The second case seems “clean” – I think that there’s more to this story – why isn’t he being charged with that assault?

Incidentally, the blog includes statements supposedly by the “white vest” woman and her brother – who defend road-rage guy with a different version of the events. I didn’t buy their explanation.

[closetbiker]

she did what she did for the right reason... he was just trash.

Good one.

(and he has a significantly smaller set of orbs; what kind of a man does it take to jump a woman?)

[mrkott3r]

Incidentally, the blog includes statements supposedly by the “white vest” woman and her brother – who defend road-rage guy with a different version of the events. I didn’t buy their explanation.


Can you briefly explain their version of events since the blog is waaaay to big to try and find it

[UmneyDurak]

I'm loosing faith in humanity, almost all gone now. :(
Anyway they guy is a complete dush bag. First for littering, second for attacking a woman.

[FastFreddy]

Can you briefly explain their version of events since the blog is waaaay to big to try and find it

“White-Vest” version:


They dropped the food accidentally.
Cyclist threw the food at their heads after opening their car door
White Vest’s fiancé (road-rage guy) didn’t know that the cyclist is female
Cyclist announced (with expletives) that she was going to key their car and also spit on the car.
Road-rage guy just wanted to hold onto the cyclist until the police arrived so they could get her to pay for the damage, not to hurt her.
Cyclist did this before and the case went to court.


Note: This version of events conflicts with both other witness accounts and the photos. The last charge (cyclist did this before) should be verifiable via court records.

[ajay677]

Just to clarify, in Canada:
Pepper spray in your pocket or bag is carrying a concealed weapon. Using pepper spray on a human is administering a noxious thing.

Then there are thousands of Canada Post letter carriers "carrying a concealed weapon". I guess I shouldn't carry that mega sized can of bear spray (pepper spray) when I'm hiking in the back country.

Animal repellant is allowed in Canada as long as it is not designed to injure or incapacitate a person or used to injure or incapaciate a person.

"Administering a noxious thing" might be used against a person who does not directly spray another person. For example, spraying the air in a bar or in a school causing dozens of people to become incapacitated by pepper spray. Spray a person directly in the face, it's an entirely different story. If this courier had had animal repellant and used it, she would be probably be charged.

[closetbiker]

Does anybody know why the road-rage guy hasn’t been arrested and charged?

from

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060201/MARKET01/TPNational/Toronto


"Ms. Hollinsworth said that distribution of the photos has undoubtedly made the motorist suffer. "This is much worse for him than any court could ever dish out," she said.

What the photos don't reflect is the recollection of two witnesses to the fight, who said the people restraining the motorist were also assaulting him."

I'd bet the guy will be in hiding for a while. The court of public opinion can be pretty harsh.

also from the article

"The fight has caused a heated reaction in the cycling community. Ms. Christoff, a long-time rider who was hit by a taxi last year in an incident she attributes to road rage, said these incidents may be more common than the average person realizes.

This is an example of the fragmented and potentially dangerous relationship between cyclists and motorists," she said."

It looks like this is being perceived as a road dispute when it is anything but.

I guess people look at pictures, and don't bother with the text.

[stokell]

In Wales a psychologist was convicted in a road rage incident against a cyclist. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1701599.stm)

"Mr Jones, a member of a local racing club who was with three other cyclists on a training ride, described how he had been dragged 20 to 30 ft by the Mercedes after he grabbed a rear door in a vain bid to stop Devalle leaving the scene.

He said he suffered cuts and bruises and his neck and shoulder were stiff. An old back injury had also been aggravated.

Devalle (the doctor) claimed that he had used his horn because three cyclists had been riding abreast.

He told the jury he feared he was going to be attacked.

He said he was "petrified" and had put the car into reverse gear by mistake while trying to get away from the cyclists.

The gear lever on the J-reg Mercedes 190 was worn so he did not have to lift it to engage reverse.

He had carried on with his journey to a local pub to watch a football match."

[mrkott3r]

glad I dont have to see that psychologist

[genec]

And now in California, a town puts up a law that would actually tax the fast food joints for those that litter...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060208/ap_on_re_us/fast_food_tax

OAKLAND, Calif. - Fed up with burger wrappers, french fry containers and paper cups, Oakland is the first city in the nation to force fast-food restaurants, convenience stores and other businesses to help pay for cleaning up street trash.

Under a tax approved Tuesday night by the City Council, businesses will be assessed between $230 and $3,815 annually, depending on their size. More than three-quarters of the affected businesses would only pay the minimum fee, which amounts to 63 cents a day.

"I don't think that's too much to ask so neighbors don't have to keep picking up trash from their doorways," said Councilwoman Jane Brunner, who proposed the measure.

[trackhub]

Rather interesting. Little surprise that of all the comments there were only a few which were balanced and pointed out that both those involved were jerks.

I want to make one comment about those who complained about a guy going arter a female. He did not take physical action against her until she vandalized his car. If anyone takes that kind of action they should be ready to deal with the consequences. If someone did that to my car I might me better behaved than he was. I'm now older and calmer, I would simply detain them until the police could arrive. But I would not be gentle.

I agree that both parties were jerks. I am not convinced that the courier deliberately scratched the guy's car. (This is to say that I don't think she thought about it, decided to do it, and then did it)

I'm looking at two things in those pictures. One is that man's obvious physical size advantage. Secondly,,,,Look at that guy's face, the look in his eyes. Now ask yourself, should this person be granted the legal privilege of driving a car, in any country? Hopefully, he'll mix it up with someone who's just as much of a low I.Q. thug as himself.

[Keith99]

I agree that both parties were jerks. I am not convinced that the courier deliberately scratched the guy's car. (This is to say that I don't think she thought about it, decided to do it, and then did it)

I'm looking at two things in those pictures. One is that man's obvious physical size advantage. Secondly,,,,Look at that guy's face, the look in his eyes. Now ask yourself, should this person be granted the legal privilege of driving a car, in any country? Hopefully, he'll mix it up with someone who's just as much of a low I.Q. thug as himself.

Just to say it one more time.

The post you are replying to was written BEFORE much of the information in the thread referenced in this one was posted and at that time the information available did make it sound like she scratched his car as an intentional act. A later post on the thread referenced says the scratch was both accidental and after the guy started getting physical, which changes things a lot.