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Give it some time to load. Several photos of an altercation between a bike messenger and motorist in Toronto. According to the photographer:
"i did not see the beginning of this, but the report goes as follows:
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car. motorist dumps coffee on courier. courier scratches car with key. road rage ensues."
http://www.citynoise.org/article/2770/by/hool
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Rather interesting. Little surprise that of all the comments there were only a few which were balanced and pointed out that both those involved were jerks.
I want to make one comment about those who complained about a guy going arter a female. He did not take physical action against her until she vandalized his car. If anyone takes that kind of action they should be ready to deal with the consequences. If someone did that to my car I might me better behaved than he was. I'm now older and calmer, I would simply detain them until the police could arrive. But I would not be gentle.
I agree that both were out of line... but littering... com'on. How many years has the anti littering message been spouted... and this jagoff just dumps the stuff out of his car!
Of course what we don't know is whether he threw it at her in the first place.
That's a shame, and I'll probably get flamed for this but the courier should have just ridden away. These kind of incidents only ever escalate and it's usually the cyclist who gets the worst of it. I don't know if the girl thought she was above being struck or a badass, but she was obviously wrong on both counts. The other sad thing is that images like this only reinforce negative stereotypes of cyclists and especially couriers. Nothing wrong with being a badass, but dang, pick your battles seems kind of stupid to risk a fight over littering in a big city.
I swear that same courier has nearly T'd me on a crossroads. I really have precious little sympathy.
If someone did that to my car I might me better behaved than he was. I'm now older and calmer, I would simply detain them until the police could arrive. But I would not be gentle.
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
And had I seen that guy littering in my "big city" I might have thrown in back in the SUV as well. In fact, I'd be mad at myself afterwards if I didn't.
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
Do you get walked on a lot?
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
Hardly, my car is a tool, nothing more. But someone who deliberatly damages the property of someone else is a criminal and deserves to be treated as a criminal. If you really felt someone deliberately and repeatedly damaged your property and took no action you are both a wimp and a poor citizen. What will she do next? Perhaps tap a cyclist to show her displeasure because he is taking up part of her road?
I agree that both were out of line... but littering... com'on. How many years has the anti littering message been spouted... and this jagoff just dumps the stuff out of his car!
Some folks are hardwired or stupid or something. Once I had a passenger who was smoking cigarettes on a trip from San Diego to LA. I asked them to use the ashtray not two feet from them. But they kept tossing the butts out of the car despite my repeated requests.
I took action.
It included 3rd party arbitration with building managment.
It didn't include the use of force.
It wasn't too effective. If that means I got walked on, sure.
(That was spoken like a parody of a true american, by the way.)
I don't physically accost people for something of this nature. I don't forcibly detain women. I guess I'm a whimp.
And "Criminal?" Maybe in america someone who causes superficial damage to a car is a *criminal* and deserves to 'get what's coming to them'. Not here. Do you honestly think the police give a crap?
I'd like to think that people dispensing their own justice was a thing of the past. But either way your legally-minded argument breaks down when you call people whimps for not using force to solve problems.
I took action.
It included 3rd party arbitration with building managment.
It didn't include the use of force.
It wasn't too effective. If that means I got walked on, sure.
(That was spoken like a parody of a true american, by the way.)
I don't physically accost people for something of this nature. I don't forcibly detain women. I guess I'm a whimp.
And "Criminal?" Maybe in america someone who causes superficial damage to a car is a *criminal* and deserves to 'get what's coming to them'. Not here. Do you honestly think the police give a crap?
I'd like to think that people dispensing their own justice was a thing of the past. But either way your legally-minded argument breaks down when you call people whimps for not using force to solve problems.
My appologies,
That seems like a reasonable action to take.
However the actions of the bike courier are a bit differrent. Her action was to key the car, it's ONLY reason was to inflict damage, to say if you mess with me I'll hurt you. She was not someone known and if she left the scene she would be gone forever. Detaining someone like that with reasonable physical force is entirely justified. Honestly the drivers eventual action of smashing the rear wheel of her bike while wrong almost surely caused far less damage in terms of cost to repair than her damage to his car.
BTW I'm much more a Paladin than a brute. I usually shrug off attacks directed at me. But mess with that nice little old lady and I am still an even money bet to get nasty.
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
Yeah, the whole attitude changes when you see a car for what it really is... simple transportation. For this reason (and others) I have never bought a new car, and the one I have now reflects the use I bought it for... 4WD in Mexico... and the scratches and dents are proud badges of my adventures.
BTW my father used to sell new cars for a living... so I have seen plenty of new cars in my life.
I'll (try) to finish this thought rationally. Let's say that the guy hadn't just littered (the fine in Toronto is now $405 CDN) and hadn't just splashed someone with hot(?) coffee, (which might well be an assault in itself). Let's say some random cyclist just rode up and keyed his car.
If you want to detain someone, it is a real bad idea under Canadian Law to physically try to hold them if they haven't already assaulted or threatened you or someone else. If you did, you could get in a great deal of trouble yourself and much more so if it was a woman and you were a man.
Hypothetically speaking, It would be much better to just grab their bike and hold onto it while calling the police. Even that would be a bit dicey, and you're still going to need witnesses and obvious intent for the cops to even consider action in your favour.
From the photos it looks like this character was trying to answer the damage to his car with damage to her bike, but it just ended up looking like a guy assaulting a woman in another road rage incident on the street.
And now for something completely different, the messenger herself...
Hello all! I am the girl in the pics. My name is Leah and although I am a courier, I was WALKING my bike up Agusta when the incident took place. He was driving and opened his door (while driving) and yelling profanities he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food (which he MUST have dropped by accident!) He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at meand then grabbed me by my helmet and tried to toss me around a bit.It was at that point that my bike lock key (that I wear on a bracelet around my wrist) scratched his car. I have read all the postings about people sympathetic to the car driver due to the expense of repairing the scratch but sorry folks, i doubt that it will cost him anything to repair as it was a 1.2cm mark in the clearcoat only(did not damage the paint) but regardless a scratch none the less. Then with some "encouraging" from some helpfull bystanders he got in his car and drove away...or so I thought! People were comming up to me and saying that I should have him charged but at that point I just figured I had made my anti-littering point and and eye for and eye with the coffee shower, I mean I did throw that patty right. But just as I was getting on my bike to ride home he came running back and thats when the photos start. He had driven half a block and decided that the scratch was worthy of a more thorough beating I guess.
Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things...
The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob!
I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!)
And as for the police charging him....
He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!?
enjoy the beautiful winter riding!
"Timmies?" Brand name, like "Starbucks?"
"Timmies?" Brand name, like "Starbucks?"
Short for Tim Horton's, the Canadian Starbucks. :p
Don't it figure that a w_nker like that would have a hot blonde for a GF? Personally I thought the messenger was hotter - I love a gal with spunk! Gawd I'm a pig! ;)
Don't it figure that a w_nker like that would have a hot blonde for a GF? Personally I thought the messenger was hotter - I love a gal with spunk! Gawd I'm a pig! ;)
She's a cool person it's true, and something only a local would know is that in that neighbourhood where the assault occured you should expect someone to tell you without delay that it isn't acceptable to throw your trash on the ground and that you're scum if you don't fix it. It's an eclectic place that while messy has a tangible community feel to it. It's got a vibe that (to anyone without the perception of the gorilla in the photos) smells like freedom and people disagree loudly all the time without getting violent, because people should be able to.
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car.
I love this part.
However I don't think it's wise to stick around much longer after that. Throw it back in and get out of there. :beer:
They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
I wouldn't let it go... I'd go after the mother****er.
Gee just a bit situation all together, made progressively worse by their actions. I've been in bad situations where things got heated, just glad it didn't get anywhere close to such a confrontation. I guess if someone dumped coffee on my Chrome bag I'd be a wee bit angry.
Hardly, my car is a tool, nothing more. But someone who deliberatly damages the property of someone else is a criminal and deserves to be treated as a criminal. If you really felt someone deliberately and repeatedly damaged your property and took no action you are both a wimp and a poor citizen. What will she do next? Perhaps tap a cyclist to show her displeasure because he is taking up part of her road?
When did she deliberately damage his property? Did you read all of the responses? The courier (Leah), explained what happened waaaay down in the posts. The guy grabbed her helmet and was wrestling her around. While he was doing this, the key to her lock, which is around her wrist, ended up scratching his car. The driver actually had left the scene, then came back to assault her again.
The driver also went after the camera guy with a baseball bat, and the police did not arrest him.
Tim Horton's is the Canadian Dunkin Donuts, not the Canadian Charbucks!!!!
I've sworn off Canada as much as possible after being forced to pay for refills at a 'timmie's' over 20 years ago....you canooks that frequent Tim Horton's should be getting free refills of that lousy swill passed off as coffee up north there.
When did she deliberately damage his property? Did you read all of the responses? The courier (Leah), explained what happened waaaay down in the posts. The guy grabbed her helmet and was wrestling her around. While he was doing this, the key to her lock, which is around her wrist, ended up scratching his car. The driver actually had left the scene, then came back to assault her again.
The driver also went after the camera guy with a baseball bat, and the police did not arrest him.
Yea, sounds alot like Honolulu Police. I've seen the same BS here. Glad she is OK. Is the bike good too?
Right on! She's a hero. I've often wanted to throw a burning cigarette butt back into a car from whence it came. But I'm a wimp. She's awesome. And so are the bystanders that took him down.
And she was getting right back in face too.
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
She keyed his car after he threw hot coffee at her. He deserved a take down. She is a hero. And the bystanders that assisted her.
My appologies,
That seems like a reasonable action to take.
However the actions of the bike courier are a bit differrent. Her action was to key the car, it's ONLY reason was to inflict damage, to say if you mess with me I'll hurt you. She was not someone known and if she left the scene she would be gone forever. Detaining someone like that with reasonable physical force is entirely justified. Honestly the drivers eventual action of smashing the rear wheel of her bike while wrong almost surely caused far less damage in terms of cost to repair than her damage to his car.
BTW I'm much more a Paladin than a brute. I usually shrug off attacks directed at me. But mess with that nice little old lady and I am still an even money bet to get nasty.
Now she's even more of a hero in my eyes. And the motorist is scum.
What this is all about is defense of the "commons". Now it's bad enough that the car culture is trashing the commons, but when drivers throw their garbage out, they are lower than pond scum and deserve having their crap thrown right back in their face.
And yes, I also support "monkey wrenching" and Critical Mass.
The Monkey Wrench Gang (1975)
Edward Abbey
This well-known book is a fictional account of 4 "environmental warriors" liberating parts of Utah and Arizona from evil road-builders, miners and rednecks. The book fueled a new generation of angry young environmentalists (such as Earth First!) practicing monkey-wrenching, sabotage for the sake of protecting the wilderness.
And now for something completely different, the messenger herself...
Right on! She's a hero. I've often wanted to throw a burning cigarette butt back into a car from whence it came. But I'm a wimp. She's awesome. And so are the bystanders that took him down.
And she was getting right back in face too.
I've wanted to do that, too (really, really wanted to do that). But throwing a cigarette butt out the window is littering. "Returning" it is either assault or arson.
We need to think about the potentially serious consequences before dispensing our own rough justice.
P.S. To make the link work I had to truncate it as follows:
http://www.citynoise.org/article/2770/
"Returning" it is either assault or arson.
No, just returning something somebody lost. :D :rolleyes: ;)
I've sworn off Canada as much as possible after being forced to pay for refills at a 'timmie's' over 20 years ago....you canooks that frequent Tim Horton's should be getting free refills of that lousy swill passed off as coffee up north there.
That's reasonable... one business doesn't give you free stuff so you avoid the country for 20 years. Also, if the coffee is "lousy swill", why on earth would you want free refills anyway?
With regards to the actual thread topic... I wish I had the nads to stand up to these self-entitled, starbuck's drinking, SUV driving lunatics. I think the courier's actions were certainly unwise but I can at least respect her conviction.
Jalopy
Come on, the Horton's slam was a joke, even though it's not good coffee!
I used to love the overpriced cigarettes too, and the difficulty finding 'to go' beer after 7 in small towns when there's no beer store....
Come on, the Horton's slam was a joke, even though it's not good coffee!
I used to love the overpriced cigarettes too, and the difficulty finding 'to go' beer after 7 in small towns when there's no beer store....
No worries, I was just trying to play along. I don't even like coffee (I would tell you that I don't smoke or drink beer either but then everyone would know that I'm a dork).
Jalopy
If you want to detain someone, it is a real bad idea under Canadian Law to physically try to hold them if they haven't already assaulted or threatened you or someone else. If you did, you could get in a great deal of trouble yourself and much more so if it was a woman and you were a man.
Another reason I'm not Canadian. And by the way, the messer commited assualt when she threw the food(?) back into the motorists car. Then she escalated it again and intentionally damaged his car. And then she was stupid enough to stick around when he got out of the vehicle to confront her. She deserved anything she had coming. I'm not absolving the guy involved, he was obviously a pompous ass but the only reason we have these pictures showing that he is an ass is becuase she escalated the incident.
I think some people are missing the scary thing here. The incident stops, the motorist drives away AND THEN COMES BACK and renews his attack on the courier. Legally, wouldn't it be a whole new ball game at that point? He was not protecting his property, he was not protecting his person. He was seeking revenge. I think he's a jerk for littering. I think she was kind of stupid for throwing it back at him, no matter how much my inner vigilante thinks it's cool. For those of you who applaud the cyclists actions, would you want to be the next cyclist this guy drives by in his car? He was a jerk for throwing cofffe at her, for roughing her up. I can't tell from her comments if the key scratch on his car was on purpose or accidental - but I'm not sure that it matters. The attack on his property was stopped. I certainly don't see how she "had this coming." I think he probably had a right to protect his property, but not a step more. He certainly didn't have the right to attack her or her property. It's scary. That one image of the guy's face, his teeth barred, that one's going to be in my head on Monday's commute.
Though everyone has the right to defend themselves when personally attacked.
Although I agree with rvabiker. This would have probably been avoided if she just reported the vehicle instead of taking action.
Another reason I'm not Canadian. And by the way, the messer commited assualt when she threw the food(?) back into the motorists car. Then she escalated it again and intentionally damaged his car. And then she was stupid enough to stick around when he got out of the vehicle to confront her. She deserved anything she had coming. I'm not absolving the guy involved, he was obviously a pompous ass but the only reason we have these pictures showing that he is an ass is becuase she escalated the incident.
Yeah the next post down from your own should show you something rva, it wasn't as simpe as two people getting into an argument, the pics show his surprise attack from behind after he'd already tossed her around a bit. She didn't intentionally damage his car either, he was holding onto her helmet when he threw her against it. And it all occurred in a neighbourhood where people traditionally stand up for the area, a very vocal place. RVABiker, You think she deserved to be physically assualted? It's easy to type, now turn to a woman you know and warn them that if they ever scratch your car you will beat them, it's only fair that you warn them since you're taking away their protection of law, law that defends their physical well being ahead of your paint job. Be sure and tell your mom that too. Maybe she'll sit down and explain the difference between a man and a Real Man to you.
I'll re-look at the pics and if he did as you said, made his peace and then came back for more then it is a slightly different animal. That said, that whole real man chivalry mindset goes right out the window when the woman assualts the man first, continues to escalate the situation and then sticks around when the guy stops. I'm not saying that I would assualt her, just that I feel not an ounce of pity.
Actually that's where it begins in any situation. Chivalry is one of the first recognized western codes of conduct that demands de-escalation among unequal foes even where an offense is obvious and cannot be ignored. It would've required he defend himself minimally and take no aggressive action. Taking into account todays climate of equality among the sexes and greater realization of the worth of another person over that of personal property that individual still failed in every aspect possible to be chivalrous. He was the one of the two that took the train into felonyland where before it was barely in misdemeanorville.
Some folks are hardwired or stupid or something. Once I had a passenger who was smoking cigarettes on a trip from San Diego to LA. I asked them to use the ashtray not two feet from them. But they kept tossing the butts out of the car despite my repeated requests.
The solution to a situation like this one is simple. The person is too lazy to put a butt in an ashtray so they throw it out the window. What needs to be done is to make it harder for the person to throw the cigarette out the window. So every time they throw a butt out the window you just stop the car, get out, and go find the butt (painstakingly slowly I might add). Do this once or twice and they will use the ash tray.
Also, what would you do if you just came across this as you walked down the street? I'd have tackled the jackbag. I am not agressive by nature when it comes to myself because I just don't see the point of getting into an altercation. But when some guy gets out of his car to hurt someone else? That's just uncalled for. As a guy you have a position of greater physical strength (in many cases) and this means you must have the responsability to not use your strengh over others for your own selfish ends.
If I just came across this on the street the guy would have been U-locked to the neares lightpost pretty quickly.
http://i1.tinypic.com/mtnsyr.gif
I want to point out somethings.
The thread on the other site is ongoing. Some of my early comments on this thread were made before posts on the linked thread existed. I think the same thing has happened to others on this thread.
Some of the late information changes things a lot as I see it. (assuming they are true of course).
To me there is a big difference between causing damage and causing damage by intent. The early posts made it sound like she keyed his car, a deleberate act to cause damage. Later psots claim his car got a very small scratch because she wears her key on a bracelet during a scuffle.
Two things changed. Intent and order. Early psots made it sound like any physical contact was the result of her scratching his car.
Also the leaving and returning changes a lot of things. Before he left one could argue she started it.
BUT at least as I see it everything after his return is something he started.
i totally thought it was kensington market. i recognize that store i think it's right across from coffeeshop and the dodgy army surplus. i cant believe this moron would scuffle with someone right in the middle of that Augusta. it's an open market very similar to the maxwell market in chicago, except it's all week as opposed to one day. there's like lots of witnesses and foot traffic there. man that ****er deserves it. i hate dumbasses who drive through augusta. i mean that street is narrow enough as it is with families and kids and shoppers, why do you feel the need to plow through with your car? its not that im anticar, but there's such a thing as common sense.
"Timmies"
Did someone mention my name?
And by the way, the messer commited assualt when she threw the food(?) back into the motorists car.
Is this a legal opinion?
It most states it is a felony to throw an object at a moving vehicle.
It most states it is a felony to throw an object at a moving vehicle.
"he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food"
I'll repost what I posted on another site...This messenger was apparently strolling along whistling and being very pleasant when this crazed driver screams past cursing and throwing things at her. Being a good citizen she calmly picks up the trash the psycopath has ejected from his vehicle and hands it to him. Being crazy this guy becomes enraged, throws a cup of coffee on the innocent meesenger then jumps out of the vehicle catches her by surprise and during the course of roughing her up she accidently scratches his car which further enrages him.
If you want the truth ask the driver what happened then average the stories becuase as someone in the FG/SS forum put it, this one doesn't pass the smell test.
Give it some time to load. Several photos of an altercation between a bike messenger and motorist in Toronto. According to the photographer:
"i did not see the beginning of this, but the report goes as follows:
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car. motorist dumps coffee on courier. courier scratches car with key. road rage ensues."
http://www.citynoise.org/article/2770/by/hool
If you haven’t seen the series of photos on citynoise.org you really should check it out. Those stills are so much better than the grainy video that you usually see in these caught-on-tape incidents.
I read the [huge] comment section on that site. Several people – without citing any evidence – accused the photographer (“Hool” -- who is also connected to the website) of setting up the whole thing. These excellent photos look real to me. Comments?
edit: I forgot to explain why I’m just a little suspicious of this – why hasn’t this crazy, violent motorist been charged? Evidently, he was stopped by police – who also have his plate number from the 911 call. Granted, his altercation with the cyclist is problematic since they both escalated the confrontation at various points, but when this crazy, road-rage guy came after the photographer with a baseball bat (without provocation) he clearly crossed a line. I can’t believe that he isn’t being charged with at least that assault. Maybe the legal system is so different in Canada that there’s a reason for this. I’m sure that here in Georgia, if somebody who could be identified did something like that, he would be charged – neither the police nor the DA would let it go.
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