best/worst cities for bicycling

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Kukenan

I second South Florida.
Too fast, too furious, too many cars, too little patience.

The BikeForums Team

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FastFreddy

<<interstate highways of metro Atlanta had the fastest traffic in the world>>
Is that "World" as in "World Series" or the real World? :)

.

Supposedly it was the whole “real world”. I wish I could remember where I read that.

trackhub

You quoted my conclusion as if that was my opinion. Yet I clearly stated it as a logical outcome from another premise.

My conclusion is based on the following premise:

"The factors are almost totally subjective". You may disagree with that, but that would pretty much make my point, unless you can actually identify significant factors used in the ratings that were non-subjective.

You may disagree that a rating system based on factors that are almost totally subjective is inherently ridiculous. We would agree to disagree on that. But I would also hasten to point out that rating cities for the nebulous quality of "bike friendliness" in a system that has more in common with how beauty pageant's work than how any other rating system speaks for itself.

Finally, yes, San Diego did get rated best big city (over a million) or something. Somebody wins the Lottery too. It was our turn. Woo hoo!

Now I remember,,,,

spandexwarrior

Helmet Head

The minute one sees the problem as "competition for space", he's doomed.

Football players compete for space. In traffic, the space is mine, until I choose to give it up. That's what right-of-way rules are for...

Once you accept that a narrow lane means using the full lane, and often requiring faster traffic behind you to have to be held up a bit, the "problem" vanishes.

I didn't say that competition for space is a problem- the article says that. Read my post again! But since you brought it up, say there is a road, which is hilly and winding, (like many around here) with a 20 inch shoulder. There is a swath of gravel you can pull the bike over on to, should you choose. The road is divided by a double yellow line (=no passing is allowed because it is not safe) and the speed limit is 50 mph. If you claim the lane, you may force a passing driver into a head on collision. If the driver doesn't pass, a procession of cars results behind you. The drivers behind you are unhappy because they are traveling below the speed limit (their speed depends on your speed which can be piss poor on inclines). What do you do in this situation?
I didn't say "you" meaning you literally. In the first sentence I correctly wrote "the minute one sees the problem...". I should have used one instead of you in the last sentence too. In any case, I meant "you", whoever "you" may be, not literally you, spandexwarrior. Okay?

As to your question...
First, I probably wouldn't ride this road without a mirror.
Second, I would treat the sections with insufficient sight lines, if there are any, quite differently from the rest of the road where the sight lines are sufficient for approaching motorists to see me and slow down in time.

In sections with insufficient sight lines, say around a tight right turn, or just after cresting a hill and dropping steeply, I move as far right as I can until sight line length have improved sufficiently to move back to my centerish position.

Where sight lines are good, as long as I'm in a centerish position (which improves sight lines from the rear to me, except perhaps on left turns, where I might move right to extend sight line length, depending on the radius of the curver and other factors), I remain in a centerish position, requiring approaching motorists to slow down to my speed. I will typically issue a slow/stop signal with my left arm to communicate my awareness of their presence behind me, perhaps coupled with a look back, smile and wave. With my mirror and the decent sight lines, I can monitor the situation in the extremely unlikely case that someone is not looking where they're going (which is where I'm riding) as they're approaching, and I can ditch. With the hills and curves, it's very unlikely that drivers take their eyes off the road, in particular staying focused on the status of the lane in front of him.

When motorists are stuck behind me, I move aside to facilitate their passing as soon as it is safe and reasonable to do so, which may be a while. If it is an unreasonably long time, or 5 or more cars are stacked up, I would pull over and stop in the gravel shoulder if that was my only option.

As best as I can understand what you're describing, that's what I would do.

Lamplight

In my town we have one road with a bike lane, and people use it for passing on the "shoulder". :mad:

closetbiker

We have lots of bike lanes and I always see people drive, pass, and park in them. (even when I'm in 'em)

Roody

I didn't say that competition for space is a problem- the article says that. Read my post again! But since you brought it up, say there is a road, which is hilly and winding, (like many around here) with a 20 inch shoulder. There is a swath of gravel you can pull the bike over on to, should you choose. The road is divided by a double yellow line (=no passing is allowed because it is not safe) and the speed limit is 50 mph. If you claim the lane, you may force a passing driver into a head on collision. If the driver doesn't pass, a procession of cars results behind you. The drivers behind you are unhappy because they are traveling below the speed limit (their speed depends on your speed which can be piss poor on inclines). What do you do in this situation?
What do you mean, "Force a passing driver...."? Each driver is responsible for determining that it's safe to overtake. If they misjudge...KABOOM! But how is that the cylist's fault?

baiskeli

Almost forgot,,,,When you're right, you're right. If you've read the newspapers lately, you know that a lot of people, especially young professionals, are leaving in droves. The most common reason given is the cost of housing, which borders on the absurd. Among the lesser known reasons are "the attitude" you mention. This attitude is present in the ultra-rich suburbs west of the city as well, but it's more concealed. The town of Concord is rapidly getting a reputation as being anti-bike, despite its popularity with cyclists. This is the town that halted planned expansion of the Minuteman rail-trail. Ditto for the town of Weston, which has pretty much doomed the imagined (I don't even think it's right to use the word "planned" any more) Mass Central Rail Trail. When completed, this imagined gem would have run from Waltham, all the way to Northhampton, MA. Weston, Wielding their money and political power like a sledgehammer, pretty much killed the whole thing by saying "Not in my backyard".

Wow! that would have been great to have the Minuteman rail-trail extended and have the Mass Central Rail Trail.

I had an interesting experience in Concord (cursed out by driver who then proceeded to speed up and do the same to the next two cyclists ahead of me). We also had a cop bellow at us over his megaphone to get all the way to the right of the road (we were riding single file about 1 foot from the white line on the right but apparently we should have been riding an inch from the edge of the road) Overall, Concord is nice to ride in but I have heard that things have deteriorated of late.

According to Menino Boston is a city of neighborhoods (euphemism for Bostonians like to stick with their own). There is definitely a large prevalence of NIMBY, I just didn't realize it also extended to bike paths. Its funny for a city with such congestion such little forethought is put into alternative transportation (I am yet to see a bikerack on buses or people getting agressively ticketed for parking in the bike lanes)

Anyway, I will soon be one of those young professionals leaving. My girlfriend and I have considered moving to the West Coast in the next year or so. Property prices between here and there are pretty much a wash but the weather is nicer and people friendlier. However, I know that California is more car culture than Massachusetts so I don't know what the riding will be like (however, I have a friend who is a triathelete who moved to San Diego and absolutely loves the riding).

Domhannic

closetbiker

.....it isn't the infrastructure that makes it friendly, it's the bicyclists that do.

You bet! It always boils down to who chooses how to do what and how they deal with it.

I think any town I'd live in would be a good bike town, just like any day is a great day to ride a bike!

thegimprider

Worst bike city, Marysville Ca. does not even have a bike shop.
Worst bike state, Arizona, snowbirds hate anything traveling under 80mph it makes them late for their bingo game. Major roads are the only way to get to most places in the state but the secondary roads are worth grief. Hwy 95 and 40 and 93 stink. I-10 and I-8 have unridable shoulders forcing cycles onto motorized lane or eating wheels. Route 66 and Hwy 89 & 89A are sweet and worth every long horn blast I endured getting to them.

MassBiker

[Originally Posted by Helmet Head:
The whole concept of rating cities for cycling "friendliness" is pretty ridiculous.]

Your opinion. Others are free to disagree.
:rolleyes:

Well, that's true of anything. So you've hardly refuted this claim!

_Bicycling_ never tells us exactly what "bike friendliness" is, but from reading their articles, it seems to have a lot to do with how much money gets dumped into "facilities," without much real evaluation about what these facilities actually do.

You've noted that they've praised Cambridge with an honorable mention. Certainly some of what that city has done is praiseworthy. These things include:

* many bike racks in all parts of the city, and a program that identifies where more can be placed

* a good zoning ordinance that requires bicycle parking for buildings of various sizes and uses

* an active bicycle committee

* a police department that has an active, trained bicycle patrol

* a model of planning that eliminates a "transportation department" (read, "department of cars") with a "community development department" that oversees public works as well as transportation.

Boston has none of these. Their former bicycle program manager (who's a friend of mine) was constantly frustrated with the near-complete lack of support he received in his job.

Also, I was a mayorally-appointed member of the city's bicycle committee in its second incarnation, from its inception in December, 1999, until we dissolved for lack of interest from the city in July, 2003, and not once -- not one single time! -- did the city bring to us a project for evaluation or endorsement. They simply called us together, and then forgot that we existed. We tried to work on our own projects, of course, but we were still ignored.

So as far as I'm concerned, Boston should be on the Worst Three list for its seemingly insurmountable, very intentional ignorance of bicycling, and its callous indifference toward its bicyclist community.

As for Boston's recently re-elected chief executive, well, he figures he's doing his part by having traded in his expensive SUV for an even more expensive hybrid SUV. Yeah, way to go ...!

On the other hand, many experienced cyclists strongly disagree with Cambridge's "one size fits all" approach to bike lanes, many of which (and probably most) cannot be ridden in without being in harm's way of the deadly car door zone. They even did a study on Hampshire Street last year which purported to demonstrate that cyclists rode farther from car doors when a bike lane was present that admitted that cyclists can't be fully in the lane *at all* and be safe from the car-door collision. Somehow, it didn't occur to these Harvardonian Cantabrigians that they just ought not encourage cyclists to ride within four feet of car doors. Nor do they believe that bike lanes should be made safe places to ride, and that if they can't be so, they shouldn't be on the streets at all.

Cambridge has also gotten into the business of sidewalk bicycle paths, which are the most dangerous kinds of facilities for cycling that we've yet learned how to build. They promised to keep the sidewalk bike path on Vassar Street clear of snow, too, but the very first snowstorm after it was installed, it was used for storage of snow! (Put not thy faith in bureaucrats, young cyclists ...!)

The thing is, despite Boston's ignorance, and Cambridge's insistence on building generally rotten bikeways, the Boston area is really a pretty good place to ride a bike. It's compact, and it's relatively flat. Desirable destinations can be reached faster by bicycle than by nearly any other mode of transportation. The urban areas are reasonably easy to get in and out of, though we need much better connections with Logan Airport and other destinations to the northeast. It's well-served by rail transport, and with the exception of one light rail line, cyclists can bring their bikes on the subways and commuter rail.

The Boston area also has a strong bicyclist advocacy group, the Massachusetts Bicycle Coalition (http://www.massbike.org), and in recent years, the State of Massachusetts has shown significantly greater interest in working with its cyclists through MassBike. The state highway design manual was rewritten over the past three years with MassBike's participation, and the hours during which non-folding bikes can be taken on the subway and commuter rail have been expanded. (Folding bikes can be taken on at all times.) Even the Registry of Motor Vehicles -- that's the outfit that should be educating our motorists away from their "Nation's Nastiest" reputation -- has been told to improve its driver training by including bicycling in its instructional materials and testing. What effect this will have remains to be seen, of course.

And as for _Bicycling_'s assessment, well, if Boston did everything *except* make the mistakes that Cambridge has made with its paint'n'path addiction, it would probably still rank low because what the city could do probably wouldn't cost enough money for that magazine to notice. By that magazine's apparent standards, a huge, sprawling mega-city, where schools are located many miles from homes, shops, recreational facilities, and so on, and where roads are four-to-six lane, high-speed surface arteries could be "bicycle friendly" simply because they spill a lot of paint and install sidepaths between every strip mall. I'd still prefer quirky little Boston to that!

Meanwhile, if the City of Boston would fix the streets, making them smooth and well-marked, clean them of sand, snow, and trash, and then get the cops to do their jobs and write tickets to the miscreant motoring masses who blithely ignore traffic laws, Boston would be about as good as a city this size could get for cycling.

Oh -- well, yeah, the weather, there's that. Between November and April it stinks. But hey, I ride twelve months, and 5800 miles per year, with over 4000 as commuting miles, so the winter doesn't stop me. When in New England, do as New Englanders do, pallie!

And besides, it's a warm winter this year! (Maybe that's why the Patriots didn't get to the Super Bowl ... hmmm, ya think?)

trackhub

.....Lots of well-thought out stuff....

I wasn't trying to refute his claim. Lord knows, you don't want to do that here. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Cambridge gets some kudos, and some dope-slaps as well. I agree with your comments about "Sidewalk Bicycle paths". All I can think of, is that these were put there for the "Mom, dad, and kiddies on Sunday afternoon crowd". Yes, they are among the most dangerous, and ill-conceived, type of facility.

Wasn't it Tim Baldwin who was Boston's bike coordinator for a bit, before being laid off by hizzoner the mayor? I heard about the lack of support. I was not surprised at all.

Off-topic: Every spring, the Registry runs those "Look twice, save a life" ads in the newspapers, concering Motorcyclists on the highways You've probably seen these public service ads. A few years back, I clipped some of them, and mailed them to my state representative. I asked, in a polite letter, why the same could not be done for bicyclists. I received a one-paragraph response, saying that he agreed, that bicycle considerations were important, and that my letter had been forwarded to the office of the Governors's highway safety bureau. :rolleyes:

baiskeli, your experience in concord is similar to the experiences I have been hearing about for a few years now. Such tales always seem to involve a pricey SUV. Coincidence? I've been hearing more such stories about the Concord PD. Oddly enough, they had a few bike officers for a bit, but it has been at least five years since I've seen one.

LittleBigMan

Well, reporting again from the Deep South, where snowballs are kept in freezers in the museum...

Met up with an Atlanta bike commuter in my fav LBS who rides from Roswell (that dreaded North side town about which Diane said, "...if I move there, I'll probably give up riding my bike for transportation...") to Northside Hospital, about 12 miles one way. He doesn't have much in the way of bicycle facilities to use. Here's what he said:

Atlanta is bad for bicycling. There you have it, folks, from a North side commuter. I would disagree with him, but I don't ride in Roswell.

And yet, it does not stop him from riding his bike to work.

Not only that, but he said he almost never gets yelled at or honked at. He did complain about the volume and speed of the motor traffic, though.

noisebeam

Article in the paper this week:
http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/0208mr-bikepath0208sidebarZ11.html

"Cyclists give Mesa mixed review
Bicycle magazine lists Portland, Ore., No. 1 in country

Art Thomason
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 8, 2006 12:00 AM

Ralph Kabutz rides his bike five days a week for casual exercise.

Other than his stops at Starbucks just north of busy Val Vista Drive and Baseline Road, he avoids bike lanes on congested streets.

"They're terrible," Kabutz said. "I know the intention was good, but with the traffic the way it is, I stay off of them with a passion.

"I can't go around town without seeing two or three accidents every day."

If it weren't for that, Kabutz, who prefers rides along the canals, said he would give bicycle routes in Mesa and the rest of the Southeast Valley a better grade than a B-minus.

His assessment was reflective of the average grade posted by several cyclists who ride the Southeast Valley on-street bike lanes and off-road trails frequently.

"I'd rank Mesa as a B," said Raymond Kidd, who describes himself as a "serious cyclist" and rides at least five days a week before or after work at his bicycle shop, Paragon Cycling. "Bike routes here are pretty good."

But not good enough to make Bicycling magazine's list of America's top 21 cycling cities published in its March issue.

The publication's executive editor said, however, that it's no time for Valley cyclists to turn in their two-wheelers.

"In the Southwest, (Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler and Tempe included) we were very impressed overall with the level of growth in cycling and the level of enthusiasm for it in the communities," Loren Mooney said.

Phoenix grabbed an honorable mention after San Diego, Chicago and New York scored best, respectively, in the million or more population category.

Tucson was ranked as the second best cycling city with a population of 200,000 to 500,000.

"We ranked Phoenix as Phoenix proper but it is an indication that the metro area is shining and is a great destination for cyclists," Mooney said.

Portland, Ore., was named the best cycling city, and no rankings were made after the top 21, said Chris Brienza, a magazine spokesman."

I too ride in Mesa frequently and don't find riding on the streets to be something to be avoided. But I don't fully use the BLs either. I get out of them approaching every intersection to avoid right hooks (and be more visible to help prevent left hooks) I also don't understand how one can get around effectively using the canals as they rarely go places one needs to go and they cross arterial streets often with no stop signs or traffic control for x-ing traffic.

Al

closetbiker

jimmuter

The article also cites the lack of bike lanes and no “bike coordinator”. I don’t believe painting lines on the pavement does much to enhance safety – it can actually make things worse – but let’s not get into that debate again. And if they hired a “bike coordinator” it would be just one more way to fill a job with a political crony and increase the burden on the taxpayers.

I disagree with your assessment of bike coordinator. Our city has one who is definitely not a political cronie and her work has led to some genuine improvements in bicycling and pedestrian facilities in our city. She also provides a centralized point to bring advocacy issues and to rally people around issues important to us.

noisebeam

City of Tempe has a bike coordinator (or perhaps called something different) and they are the person I go to to get light signals fixed, debris removed, signs replaced or installed and they get things done. They are also a cyclist. They may have biases toward what kind of facilities are appropirate/best, but that doesn't matter to me as they respond to immeditate cyclist needs effectively.
Al

baiskeli

Hey, after reading quite a few replys to bicycle friendly towns and who rates at the top I got to say.....it isn't the infrastructure that makes it friendly, it's the bicyclists that do. So any negative attitudes represented reflect your town. I've lived in Somerville Mass. and know Boston is a great cycling town because of it's riders. I live in Minneapolis MN now and altho it has a fantastic infastructure and a butt load of Federal Money......cycle culture is dead here. Everyone is about as disjointed as this forum is. Got any helpful tips to raise the dead in MPLS?

I live in Somerville and I will not deny that the riders in the area are great, however, the drivers leave a lot to be desired (Somerville Cambridge are fine but some of the outlying areas are not).

I think it is a combination of
1. Infrastructure
2. Biking Community
3. Law enforcement
4. Driver education

I have seen police officers in Cambridge ticketing agressive drivers and bike lane parkers but have never seen the same thing happen in other areas. The funny thing is that the roads in Concord are definitely wider and nicer than in Somerville and Cambridge.

I'd be really interested in knowing why the bike culture in MPLS is dead, especially with great infrastructure . Is there an organization similar to massbike?

Domhannic

There is not a bike culture in Minneapolis or the surrounding 7 counties that comprise 2.5 million people. There are solitary riders that recreate-commute-train-...In the past week a coffee shop opened called Cars-R-Coffins. Trying to cater to an alt crowd---but hey- they are doing something---still our urban area is a fantastic place to ride....plenty of beauty and adventure.....

spandexwarrior

I didn't say "you" meaning you literally. In the first sentence I correctly wrote "the minute one sees the problem...". I should have used one instead of you in the last sentence too. In any case, I meant "you", whoever "you" may be, not literally you, spandexwarrior. Okay?

As to your question...
First, I probably wouldn't ride this road without a mirror.
Second, I would treat the sections with insufficient sight lines, if there are any, quite differently from the rest of the road where the sight lines are sufficient for approaching motorists to see me and slow down in time.

In sections with insufficient sight lines, say around a tight right turn, or just after cresting a hill and dropping steeply, I move as far right as I can until sight line length have improved sufficiently to move back to my centerish position.

Where sight lines are good, as long as I'm in a centerish position (which improves sight lines from the rear to me, except perhaps on left turns, where I might move right to extend sight line length, depending on the radius of the curver and other factors), I remain in a centerish position, requiring approaching motorists to slow down to my speed. I will typically issue a slow/stop signal with my left arm to communicate my awareness of their presence behind me, perhaps coupled with a look back, smile and wave. With my mirror and the decent sight lines, I can monitor the situation in the extremely unlikely case that someone is not looking where they're going (which is where I'm riding) as they're approaching, and I can ditch. With the hills and curves, it's very unlikely that drivers take their eyes off the road, in particular staying focused on the status of the lane in front of him.

When motorists are stuck behind me, I move aside to facilitate their passing as soon as it is safe and reasonable to do so, which may be a while. If it is an unreasonably long time, or 5 or more cars are stacked up, I would pull over and stop in the gravel shoulder if that was my only option.

As best as I can understand what you're describing, that's what I would do.
Interesting. I ride this road but without a mirror. I use my ears more so- which doesn't always work because if there is someone tailgating the approaching car, you get the illusion that there is just one car. I, unfortunately, only have a mirror for my mountain bike. Otherwise, I always go as far right as I can to permit passing motorists a safe pass. Yet, some cyclists on that route will ride out in the lane, making it dangerous for automobiles.

buzzman

Meanwhile, if the City of Boston would fix the streets, making them smooth and well-marked, clean them of sand, snow, and trash, and then get the cops to do their jobs and write tickets to the miscreant motoring masses who blithely ignore traffic laws, Boston would be about as good as a city this size could get for cycling.

It would sure help- you're right. And your observations about Boston politics is dead on. Having just been out of town on business and having taken a day to ride the streets of San Francisco and the outlying Bay area I must say spending a few bucks on infrastructure and facilities combined with some real proactive measures by a city to incorporate and make cyclists feel welcome goes a long way. Those who've made the observation that the cyclists are what make a city friendly are right and Boston is proof of some really great people on bikes but they'd be heck of a lot happier if they felt appropriately represented politically and with public services. Boston cyclists tend to be a hearty, feisty crowd hardened by tough winters, insane drivers and shrewd corrupted politics. They tend to have more in common with a hockey team than the usual spandex attired set. Like the long suffering Red Sox it'd be nice to see them win one and get a little respect once in a while.

ken cummings

Boston, lower NYC, Paris, London, Rome . . . All laid out in the days of horse carts and foot traffic. Paris at least went wild with the wrecking crews and open some boulevards. Most ended up with subways :( . The city I won't ride in is Mexico City. Street names and even streets end in the middle of blocks when they reach administrative boundaries. The air is horrid. It may be expensive where I live but there is some awareness of cyclists on official levels. Drop by. I'll be a course marshall for the Tour of California on Monday.

trackhub

It would sure help- you're right. And your observations about Boston politics is dead on. Having just been out of town on business and having taken a day to ride the streets of San Francisco and the outlying Bay area I must say spending a few bucks on infrastructure and facilities combined with some real proactive measures by a city to incorporate and make cyclists feel welcome goes a long way. Those who've made the observation that the cyclists are what make a city friendly are right and Boston is proof of some really great people on bikes but they'd be heck of a lot happier if they felt appropriately represented politically and with public services. Boston cyclists tend to be a hearty, feisty crowd hardened by tough winters, insane drivers and shrewd corrupted politics. They tend to have more in common with a hockey team than the usual spandex attired set. Like the long suffering Red Sox it'd be nice to see them win one and get a little respect once in a while.

As Fonzie might put it,"Correct-a-mundo!". I have heard from a few cyclists that you see more riders around Boston in January than you see in the Orlando FL area at any time. I'd like to know if this is true, and if cycling in Orlando and the entire southeast chunk of FL is as bad as I have heard.

Re, Boston winters: I used to know a cyclist who was a true "Winter nut". This guy loved winter, the colder and stormier, the better. He left Boston because he felt that the winters were not tough enough. He moved to Brewer Maine, for the lower housing costs, and the very nasty Maine winters. I think he was crazy.

merlin70

Allow me to add my two cents, I lived in San Diego for 34 years and have now been in Atlanta for 2 (don't ask, most people think I'm nuts). I've been riding since 1990 and raced 4 years for SDBC, the club mentioned in the article.

No question the climate in SD makes it a very attractive choice. And there are a significant number of bike lanes if that is felt important (I liked them, but also had many routes that had no extra shoulder).

However, I too have to defend the greater Atlanta area somewhat. I live in the N. suburbs and have been pleasantly surprised by the riding opportunities. I too thought I would have to sell my bike when I moved. But I ventured, gingerly at first, out into the roads that once seemed so inhospitable. I have since found one can ride quite sucessfully here. My personal experience has been drivers have actually been more accomodating, giving more space and passing more carefully. And it seems the pavement quality is generally quite a bit better, my old routes in CA has lots of rough pavement.

Certainly the climate is worse and (sorry LittleBigMan) winters are bitter freezing compared to SD. Still, on a balmy late summer afternoon spinning beside the chattahoochee river on riverside drive, sheltered by trees greener than anything in SD, I can't help but think it could be a lot worse. And as mentioned the Silver Comet is a huge gem and unlike anything to be found in S. Cal. Being able to ride 75 miles on a glass smooth, tree shaded path complete with bridges over rather pretty rivers is just really cool. Not to mention complete support with restrooms, water, and even a bike shop readily available along the way.

And like SD challenging mountains can be had in N. GA, though farther away than SD's many hill options. Ah yes, I do miss Palomar from time to time.

One of the worst places? Nah, cycling can be done here, and done well.

thebankman

Seeing polls like this makes me want to move :( wish that were possible

buzzman

Seeing polls like this makes me want to move :( wish that were possible

You're in the Bay Area and you want to move- do tell, why?

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