Folding Bikes - Converting a folder double or triple

As a folder newbie, I've read all the threads regarding folders. I am really excited about getting one. I had an opportunity to ride my 1st folder at the only BF dealer in NYC and loved it but wasn't happy about the way the BF folded. If the BF folded better, I would not have hesitated to go with it. I was also surprised that a NWT that just came in, had a very tight headset which could have done some damage to the cups/races if it was not corrected.

My ideal steel folder has 20" 401 wheels and

1) needs 21-27 speeds for loaded trailer touring.

2) needs to fold/unfold reasonably well as I might do it several times a day (shopping, banking, eating out) when I settle in a place for a while. It doesn't need to be as compact as a Brompton.

3) I would prefer a double or triple front crankset as I don't feel comfortable with these DD internal hubs in the middle of nowhere. I currently do my own road bike maintenance.

4) needs to fit in a 29" samsonite.

I read the Swift thread and liked the way the the green Swift folder looked with the double crank but it appeared to have only one rear speed and I'm not sure how it folds. I'll drop by their store to see one in person.

I like the 2006 Dahon bikes especially the speed PR and TR but they have the DD hub. I understand that the P8 has the same frame as the TR/PR and is $300 to $400 cheaper. I was wondering if I could easily add a double or triple crankset with the saved money. Would it effect the folding feature? I would add another $200 for further upgrades if needed. It would still be cheaper than a BF.

Remember, I don't know much about folders yet.

Thanks again for your feedback.

A 130/135 rear spacing with short chainstays won't leave much room for a double with big rings (let alone a triple!). If you add a longer BB spindle, this will only worsen an already poor chainline. But then I don't know any specifics about the models you mention and so this might be nonsense.

KHS folders accomodate a conventional front derailleur clamped to the seat-tube.

Google "e-type derailleur" for an option that works with any bike. You'd have to factor that cost into the price of the bike though (new bottom bracket, derailleur, crankset)

IMO, you're not likely to compromise folding significantly by putting a double/triple crank on.

EDIT: check the wheelbase on whatever bike you're looking at. My F20 is 38 inches, just 2 inches shy of my old touring bike. I keep hearing about "short chainstays" on folders but have yet to see this come into play in any meaningful way.

All reliable bikes that I know targeting the audience in need of broad range of gears (including the Trek 600 (http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1276000&f=24), the Dahons (www.dahon.com) and the Bike Friday (www.bikefriday.com)) use one or another Dual Drive Speed Hub. A quick search about internal hubs in the Bike Mechanics forum will lead to more testimonials of people happy with it than otherwise.

My bike was built pretty much with the same goals you mentioned and in 7 days I will be doing 300km non-stop on it (with a dua drive speed hub). Every single bike mechanic I spoke with before getting an internal hub mentioned that those things are stress-free, maintenance-free and wll give the user thousands of miles of perfect performance.

I suggest a DD Hub. I am very happy with what I read, heard and now feel about them. If you jump and dive deep to learn more about them, you will learn that the Tour de France already had winner(s) riding on internal hub geared bikes in the past.

Rafael Guerra

Stargazer, the green Swift is mine. It has a rear internal 8spd hub. You could go with a rear derailleur instead if you want. It WILL fit in a 29" Samsonite suitcase and one of the reasons I went with a internal hub is it is easier to fit in the suitcase. Double chainring doesn't affect the fold.

I too have had the DD hubs with no issue but the reason I didn't go that route is the derailleur hangs down too low with the 20" wheels but this is true of all derailleurs in general and I had issues with debris getting in the chain and derailleur if I rode in grassy area. The fold on the Swift is very fast and different than a Dahon but the bike feels more rigid to me in general and I had 4 Dahons until recently and I still have 3.

Thanks for the comments. I'll check out the other forum as well.
Rafael, please take no offense but I am going to "assume" that most people who are happy with their DD hub might not be riding 5k to 7k a year and on one bike. I'm 6', 185lbs and a pretty strong rider. I would think a rider who was much lighter than myself would put less stress on a bicycle and its components. In the best of all worlds, I would prefer hearing from select number of people with similar traits. I also noticed that a number of people on this forum have 3 or more folders. Let's not forget that a Tour de France bicyclist is not riding in the middle of Thailand or Australia "alone" but surrounded by a personal team. I would like my bicycle to last multiple 10's of thousands of miles. Since I returned to bicycling after 9/11, I have clocked over 21k on my 30 year old PX10 which still have the original Stronglight crank. I must admit the chain rings and cups are on their last leg and only have another 10k to 20k left. :D

Stargazer,

Good points, you are not the average DD hub user. I am riding only one bike (the folder) but I'm 5'9" and only 162lbs. If everything goes right I will have some decent mileage on my dd to come back here and make some extra coments, but I agree with you, at this point there is nobody to make a solid statement about DD in the middle of Australia. :)

Good luck with your choice, and please come back and share with us your final decision.

Rafael

Wavshrdr, yeh, I know and it's a beautiful looking bike. Congrats.
Since I live nearby, I'm going to bike down to Swift to see the his bikes in person. I'm excited.

stargazer- I am MUCH bigger rider than you so I tend to stress things pretty well. I also have a bike in my garage that has the original version of the DD system (Sachs 3x7) from about 1998 and it still works great. I can appreciate your desire to be self sufficient while out in the boonies. I travel to Russia often and bike in Siberia a lot and believe me, only the more remote areas of China or Australia might compare to having nobody around to help you.

That is why I built my Swift the way I did. I wanted about as bullet proof and maintenance free as I could get. I got tired of the low derailleur picking up muck and constantly having to clean the chain in muddy conditions. Basically I took all I've learned about biking in some pretty inhospitable places and built the best (and simplest) that I could afford. I live in Minnesota and our climat isn't exactly great here but at least there isn't a bike shop too far away.

Peter is a great guy to work with. I am sure he can set you up. I went for heavy duty rims and a few other upgrades just to help it survive in the more remote areas. So far the Swifts have seemed pretty bullet proof but I wanted to even make the chance of failure more remote. Time will tell if my choices were optimal but so far the bike feels very tight and the feeling of quality like my Bike Friday.

Today I couldn't help myself so I rode it again even though the rain turned to snow and we got some significant accumulation. It still just amazes me how versatile it is by just making a few changes! Go spend some time on one and you will see what I mean.

Thanks for the comments. I'll check out the other forum as well.
Rafael, please take no offense but I am going to "assume" that most people who are happy with their DD hub might not be riding 5k to 7k a year and on one bike. I'm 6', 185lbs and a pretty strong rider. I would think a rider who was much lighter than myself would put less stress on a bicycle and its components. In the best of all worlds, I would prefer hearing from select number of people with similar traits. I also noticed that a number of people on this forum have 3 or more folders. Let's not forget that a Tour de France bicyclist is not riding in the middle of Thailand or Australia "alone" but surrounded by a personal team. I would like my bicycle to last multiple 10's of thousands of miles. Since I returned to bicycling after 9/11, I have clocked over 21k on my 30 year old PX10 which still have the original Stronglight crank. I must admit the chain rings and cups are on their last leg and only have another 10k to 20k left. :D
Stargazer, I think you should not be so hasty about the dd hubs. I am 6' and 200+lbs and while I've only put 1500 miles on my bike in the past 4 months, I plan to put tens of thousands of mile on it. It is my main bike (I have a single speed vintage Crescent folder that doesn't get ridden) and I do virtually all of my miles on it. Internal drive hubs that have sat in peoples attics and basements unused and unoiled since the 1960's will still work today. They are incredibly bullet proof and will work for crazy amounts of miles with little to no maintenance. I suggest you drop an email to Sheldon Brown at Harris Cyclery and ask him about internal hub gears. You'd be amazed at their track record...they easily outlast standard derailler type set ups. The only knocks on them are that they will add an extra 1-2 lbs to your ride. I haven't had a single problem with the internal parts of my 3x7 dual drive hub, but have had to do alot of fine tuning to get the conventional derailler part of my drive train to work smoothly. I'd recommend it to anyone and haven't found a single story of mechanical failure with one of these hubs(although wisdom tells me that there has to be some). juan162

Stargazer, I think you should not be so hasty about the dd hubs. I am 6' and 200+lbs and while I've only put 1500 miles on my bike in the past 4 months, I plan to put tens of thousands of mile on it. It is my main bike (I have a single speed vintage Crescent folder that doesn't get ridden) and I do virtually all of my miles on it. Internal drive hubs that have sat in peoples attics and basements unused and unoiled since the 1960's will still work today. They are incredibly bullet proof and will work for crazy amounts of miles with little to no maintenance. I suggest you drop an email to Sheldon Brown at Harris Cyclery and ask him about internal hub gears. You'd be amazed at their track record...they easily outlast standard derailler type set ups. The only knocks on them are that they will add an extra 1-2 lbs to your ride. I haven't had a single problem with the internal parts of my 3x7 dual drive hub, but have had to do alot of fine tuning to get the conventional derailler part of my drive train to work smoothly. I'd recommend it to anyone and haven't found a single story of mechanical failure with one of these hubs(although wisdom tells me that there has to be some). juan162

Thanks again for your comments.
I have to admit that I am a worry wort. I am ready to plop down over $1k+ for a folder, so I want to make the best decision for me. I feel a little like a bicycle virgin since the last time I purchased bikes (PX10 and an all Campy LeJeune) was over 30 years ago.
Although, I have a preference towards a rear derr system, I haven't finalized my decision yet. I will take your advice and call Sheldon Brown.
I have no problem having bicycle parts wear out that "I" can easily replace (chain, derr, freewheel). My concern is having a failure of an internal hub in a part of the world where, it can't easily be replaced or fixed. I have a very bicycle technically savy friend whose opinion I value, that has a very old Dahon folder that he still uses on occasion, and he says he would "never" tour on a bike using an internal hub because in his opinion, he thinks most bike shops would NOT be able to fix an internal hub.
By the way, my annual 5k+ is all local riding and I would not hesitate riding a bike using an internal hub since with public transportation, I would be able to get esily home.
Regardless, I greatly appreciate all the comments and suggestions you all are making. :)

Your friend that states "most bike shops would NOT be able to fix an internal hub" is a very wise man , but I am happy you haven't finalized your decision yet. I was just like you about 2 months ago, and the only thing I knew about hubs prior to my recent research was information from someone that, like you, purchased bikes about 32 years ago (my father).

I do not want you to think about me if your internal hub fails in the middle of the australian outback, but I do have to say this:

getting a SRAM Dual Drive system to my bike was the BEST thing I've done in a bike in my entire life.

Just my US$0.02

Rafael

I am going to "assume" that most people who are happy with their DD hub might not be riding 5k to 7k a year and on one bike. I'm 6', 185lbs and a pretty strong rider. I would think a rider who was much lighter than myself would put less stress on a bicycle and its components. In the best of all worlds, I would prefer hearing from select number of people with similar traits.

I am 6', 175, ride a lot (including loaded touring with 50lbs of gear and a 50+lb baby trailer) and am extremely happy with my dualdrive hub. I don't think reliability or durability are issues with the internal gear hubs. In fact, over time, the shifting on my rear hub has generally been more reliable than any triple I have ever had (folding bike or full size.) the only legit knock on the internal-gear hubs is weight and a slight loss in efficiency. I am a big proponent, esp. for folders.


I also noticed that a number of people on this forum have 3 or more folders.

I have a Bike Friday New World tourist, a dahon speed TR and a downtube non-suspension folder. For the riding you describe, I would be on my BF with the Dualdrive rear end.

he says he would "never" tour on a bike using an internal hub because in his opinion, he thinks most bike shops would NOT be able to fix an internal hub.

nothing wrong with that advice, and of course it's true that many shops wouldn't know how to repair them. But, it's also the same reasoning as when people say you have to have a steel bike if you are touring because in the event of frame failure, any welder in the world can fix it. (nevermind the fact that with thin-walled tubing, that's not really so true these days). People also refuse to tour with STI's because they are more likely to fail than bar ends or dt shifters.

But with all of these things, in the event of a failure, you can just get on the phone and have BF, Gaerlan, DAhon, Harris Cyclery or any ol' shop just overnight the replacement parts to anywhere in the world. Yes, it would be expensive, but a rear hub failure is an extremely low probability. These things are not finicky and have been around for decades. You might be being a little over-cautious.

The trade-off is a triple front derailleur that WILL be finicky, including potential chain-drop issues which is not fun when climbing (or descending) a steep grade.

I was wondering if I could easily add a double or triple crankset with the saved money. Would it effect the folding feature? I would add another $200 for further upgrades if needed.


In addition to the BB and crankset replacement, I'm not sure if there's enough room for a triple derailleur on the seattube--there's only about 2" above the stock ring to attach it.

St48

I do not have a folding bicycle with internal gear hubs, but I have a road bike with internal gear hub. My folding bicycle is single speed, so lets go to the internal gear hub , the road bicycle and the environment where I live. I live in Israel and temperatures here during the Summer are never below 20ºC. During the day, they are never below 35ºC. I found an old 3 speed internal gear hub Shimano 3 cc in 2003 that I assembled in a road bicycle I use for long commuting (I can get to 70 km/day) in all sort of conditions, including nasty mountain riding. I supposed this shimano 3 cc hub is from the 70's, I dought someone ever repaired it or regreased it, up until today and it had never let me down. Now I ordered a Nexus 7 and I do not hesitate to believe that I have acquired a modern piece of machinery even more reliable than the old 3 cc hub.

If you insist on a wide range of gain ratios (see Sheldon Brown) I would suggest a Nexus 8 combined with a double chain ring at the front.

Hey folks, stop picking on me, :cry:
I'm still a newbie, aren't I? ;).

Seriously, I am considering the DD. :)

not picking!! just sharing experiences and info. I need to start using smilies in my posts. :)

Hehe, I wish I received THAT kind of attention. It took me 7 months to make a decision. I am NOT making any money to tell you that my dual drive is the ultimate gearing system in the galaxy (for my type of ride).

Next week I'll have a nice report about how it performs under 10+ hours of direct use.

Rafael

Thanks for the comments. I'll check out the other forum as well.
Rafael, please take no offense but I am going to "assume" that most people who are happy with their DD hub might not be riding 5k to 7k a year and on one bike. I'm 6', 185lbs and a pretty strong rider. I would think a rider who was much lighter than myself would put less stress on a bicycle and its components. In the best of all worlds, I would prefer hearing from select number of people with similar traits. I also noticed that a number of people on this forum have 3 or more folders. Let's not forget that a Tour de France bicyclist is not riding in the middle of Thailand or Australia "alone" but surrounded by a personal team. I would like my bicycle to last multiple 10's of thousands of miles. Since I returned to bicycling after 9/11, I have clocked over 21k on my 30 year old PX10 which still have the original Stronglight crank. I must admit the chain rings and cups are on their last leg and only have another 10k to 20k left. :D

Greenspeed recumbent tandem trikes use DD hubs for thousands of miles. Bike Friday tandems are also often equipped with DD hubs. The DD hub is based on the Fichtel and Sachs 3sp hub, one of the most reliable hubs ever produced.

Thanks aga\
My concern is having a failure of an internal hub in a part of the world where, it can't easily be replaced or fixed.

Stargazer48, As I do most of my riding close to 'civilization,' and not out in the middle of nowhere, I can appreciate your concern with the internal drive. Good luck with your decision process. BTW, I don't know Sheldon Brown personally, but I asked him some questions about my own project bike. He answered graciously and I was very happy with the decisions he helped me with. In the end, I am sure you will end up with the right set up for you. Please let us know and post some pics of the end product when it is finished, juan162

SG48

Since you are going to a long isolated bicycle adventure, I think beside suggestions about a reliable drive train for a folding bicycle you may also need some suggestions on backup equipment just in case components jam in the middle of no where. Since folding bicycles need a slight different mechanical assistence, we are eager to give suggestions on this issue ;)

SG48

Since you are going to a long isolated bicycle adventure, I think beside suggestions about a reliable drive train for a folding bicycle you may also need some suggestions on backup equipment just in case components jam in the middle of no where. Since folding bicycles need a slight different mechanical assistence, we are eager to give suggestions on this issue ;)

I am open to any suggestions that are offered here.
Thanks

SG48

About a year or so ago I remember seeing in National Geographic a bicycle (not folding) journey of a girl between Beijing and London. According to what I could see material fatigue was the main problem, like broken chain and rack, beside flat tires. I also used to travel arround Portugal, but my main problem where flat tires.

In face of my personal expirience and of what I could see on other people or TV, 1 spare "of" tire, chain, 2 or 3 tubes, compact tool, like Topeak alien DX,

http://www.topeak.com/products/tool_005.html#

2 or 3 spare spokes and niples, Leatherman or Victorinox pliers, a spoke wrench (the round ones with several neaple sizes) and a multitool cup and spanner like Lifu 3400.
http://www.allproducts.com.tw/manufacture6/lifu/14-0300.html


Some extra bearings for the wheels and 2 extra cromoly axles 1 for front wheel and the other for the back wheel would help a lot in difficult situations. A small 100 cc bottle of oil and the same quantity of grease dont hurt. About the bicycle it self, I would go for cromoly frame and 20 x 1.75 wheels. Take simple 20 x 1.75 kenda tires, they can last for tousands of km and they are cheap. Dont take quick release, but nut axles for the wheels. And finally, of course, take 36 spoke wheels. You need light components but strong as well.

And have a nice trip