Bicycle Mechanics - HDMP/Framesaver sub?

Bunch of folks mentioned that AMSOIL Heavy Duty Metal Protector is a good substitute for Framesaver at a lesser cost. I have a '71 super course that has some internal rust. I'm planning on getting rid of that with a good long-handled bristle-brush and some solvent or WD-40, and then I'd like to rust-proof it. I also have a new steel frame I need to proof for rain commuting.

Problem is, I live on the east coast, and all the auto shops/hardware stores I've called have never heard of the stuff. The AMSOIL website has some kooky ordering procedures.

Does anyone know of a shop in the DC area that carries HDMP, or, alternately, of a product that is similar? I've heard of "oilwax", there's some crystalline-bonding rust cleaner and inhibitor at Home Despot, marine oil....? I know the linseed way, but seems like a bit of a PITA.

Any products to *avoid*?

I think one poster here found HDMP at a marine supply house. I got mine at a local Advanced Auto Parts store. You could always break down and buy Weigel's Frame Saver if all else fails. Bike Tools Etc. carries it if your LBS doesn't.

One can of framesaver will do 3 or 4 frames. You use it once per frame. It's not like a lube that you have to re-apply. It isn't that expensive.

Bob

Linseed oil? interesting, care to share, Comrade?

I found what looks to be the same stuff at an ATV/dirt bike store.. it's called IronClad by Zep... I used it ony my frame.. I would hold off on using the wd40 if you plan to fog in the waxoil stuff.. It leaves a film behind.. what I used instead to floss my tubes was spray gumout.. I sprayed it in.. and used pices of 12 gauge electrical wire with pieces of a sock at the end like a pipe cleaner.. and it worked pretty good.. then I used a r/c car antenna tube fixed onto a spray nozzle to allow me to reach deep into tubes while fogging.. the amsoil mphd seemed to be the EXACT same product as the frame saver according to previous discussions in here, and I suspect the Zep's IronClad is also.. I paid $7 for a huge spray can.. I have heard frame saver is very expensive.. gotta be careful tho, the fumes are dangerous.. same with the gumout.. i did this over a couple nights and I may have lost a few brain cells even being careful..

i should also say.. I did many fog in coats into every orafice.. including seat and chain stays and forks.. by spraing into the small ventholes with the r/c antenna etc.. when the smoke cleared and all was dried.. I made sure all the vent holes were cleared of the stuff so it could still breathe.. and after many coats on this one bike, you cant even tell the can was used yet...
I also used this on the nipples of my new wheels.. this is on my winter road ride so my fear was the corrosion from salt would corrode the nipples and make the wheels not trueable later.. so I took a little plastic cap and sprayed the IronClad into it, and used a little hobby paint brush to paint it onto the nipple threads while it was still wet.. it soaked right down into the threads.. I did two coats on every nipple and it seems to have given be a real good coverage..and didn't take that long...

if you try the r/c antenna trick, actually even the gumout tubed worked pretty good but wasnt as long.. the r/w tube was about a foot long etc.. you must remember to spray the can upside down with the tube still on it to clear it out between coats.. or it will plug as the stuff solids up.. this stuff is nice.. it sprays in easy like wd40 almost.. but as the stuff evaporates it leaves behind a waxy oil base film.. you cant count on being able to spray eveything directly tho so you must work slowly in stages fogging it in, without doing too much at once and causing it to run all over and make a mess, possibly plugging some of the tubes and/or causing pooling ...

thank you! the antenna idea is a pretty good one.

as for the linseed oil--some folks use boiled linseed oil (I think it's the boiled) to coat the inside of their tubes. I know it works because my dad's used it on some exterior wood stuff. It never really dries, but stays tacky. There's some discussion about it around hyar, just do a search under "linseed oil" and it'll bring it up, I believe.

i know framesaver vs. hdmp isn't going to break the bank, but I just believe in getting good value. eventually, the $ and cents start adding up to a lot. And it's nice to have enough to use elsewhere as well.

did the quick release skewers and springs too.. sorry for the information flooding.. I will go away and be silent now.. good luck finding the stuff..

I found HDMP at the Marine Supply place, in a very small town in Michigan's thumb, to boot. It wouldn't surprise me if the same stuff comes under diff brand names. Frame Saver itself runs $15 a can, not too expensive actually if you can use it for four frames. Also, frame saver comes with good instructions, so it's worth buying the bike-specific-packaged can if you've not rustproofed a frame before.

Linseed oil trivia. The inside core of heavy steel cables are often made of .... HEMP (or other natural fiber)! To keep the steel cable strands from rusting, greases and oils are soaked into the hemp. Over time the grease or oil dries and looses its protective properties. So the standard process is to put a casing over the cable and inject hi-pressure linseed oil into the cable all the way down to the fiber core. Many of your older cable suspended bridges have been will be treated this way.

end trivia

btw: there is an advanced auto zone neaar me, what does the packaging look like. I can check the next time I am there

.....as for the linseed oil--some folks use boiled linseed oil (I think it's the boiled).....

Yes, it's the boiled linseed oil.

More trivia: Linseed oil is sqeezed from flax seeds. Boiled linseed oil isn't actually boiled. Boiling some vegetable oils causes changes in their drying characteristics. The same effect is achieved with liseed oil by adding solvents. Boiled linseed oil is called boiled because the added solvents cause it to act like a boiled oil (i.e., it goes dries more quickly).

More Linseed Oil trivia:

A rag soaked with linseed oil, left alone especially in a garbage can can actually catch fire on its own. spontanious combustion :) so if you use the stuff, be careful that you do not leave it on a wicking medium. A can of linseed oil left unattended will not combust, it does not vaporize the same way.

Enough??? :P

like this I think:

http://www.schoonersynthetics.com/amh_can_300pxh.jpg

unfortunately, I called the advance auto parts in hyattsville. They didn't know anything about it.

I found HDMP at the Marine Supply place, in a very small town in Michigan's thumb, to boot. It wouldn't surprise me if the same stuff comes under diff brand names. Frame Saver itself runs $15 a can, not too expensive actually if you can use it for four frames. Also, frame saver comes with good instructions, so it's worth buying the bike-specific-packaged can if you've not rustproofed a frame before.

$11.88 at Branford Bike

Bob

like this I think:

http://www.schoonersynthetics.com/amh_can_300pxh.jpg

unfortunately, I called the advance auto parts in hyattsville. They didn't know anything about it.
That's it exactly. Try a few other Auto parts shops or chains. It's out there.

I won't claim to know what I'm doing, but here goes. I found a Penzoil product at the local building supply super store (Menards) that claims to be a rust preventitive for marine engine parts. The label says it leaves a thin layer of oil on the surface.

So, go to your local super cheap discount home building products store and find the automotive department. Look for something that is advertised for use as rustproofing on marine engine parts.

Edit: I paid $3 for a can of the equivalent Penzoil product at Menards. No, it isn't worth paying 4x for the "bike specific pruduct". Pisses me off royally that people repackage the same product for different market segmets at way different prices. %$#@ "Framesaver".

like this I think:

http://www.schoonersynthetics.com/amh_can_300pxh.jpg

unfortunately, I called the advance auto parts in hyattsville. They didn't know anything about it.
I found this out today. Don't even look for this stuff at the national chains. Amsoil only works with "independent distributors". Which is cool, just don't plan on finding it at Pep Boys or Home Depot.

I found this out today. Don't even look for this stuff at the national chains. Amsoil only works with "independent distributors". Which is cool, just don't plan on finding it at Pep Boys or Home Depot.

Yeah, back when I used to mess around with cars more I recall some people having a sort of religious fervor with regards to Amsoil products. Presumably it is sold to independent retailers in a way not unlike Amway stuff.... That always made me leery.

yup the "Am" in Amway and Amsoil plus their weird online ordering (have to go through the local indep. distrib.) makes me think maybe they are related. lame.

Obvious solution, hunt up a couple of local, non-chain auto parts stores. Come to think of it, I got mine at a local shop, not the Advanced Auto Parts store as I reported above.

As to the Amway-type connection, I don't think so. Amsoil stuff is sold in retail shops and the cost is very reasonable. Neither is true of Amway.

the company was founded by Lt. Col. A.J. "Al" Amatuzio so my guess is would be that the company name was derived from the phrase "Am's Oil".. if you notice on the can the AMS is in red and the OIL is in blue... just a guess..

I found another possible framesaver substitute. I bought a can of Gunk/Liquid Wrench Industrial Chain Lube at Home Depot last night to prep my new LHT frame. It sounds like it is supposed to do the same thing as Boeshield T-9 and Amsoil HDMP. I sprayed it in last night and I am waiting for it to "set up". It cost about 3 bucks for a 15 ounce spray can.

If you've just spent $1,000., $1,500 or $2,000 on a steel-framed bike and are worried about $15 on some Boeshield T-9 or other framesaver then maybe you should step back and reconsider your priorities.

What about spraying in some metal primer as an inexpensive option?

And just to throw an totally different alternative in to the ring, has anyone tried or even heard of Zinga? See: http://www.zingacanada.com/ (There's probably a US distributer as well).

Dinitrol ML is used during car restoration as a corrosion preventive/rust killer in cavities. It's cheap at about $5 a 500ml can.

http://eftec-aftermarket.de/index.php?id=52&subcatid=8&L=1

If you've just spent $1,000., $1,500 or $2,000 on a steel-framed bike and are worried about $15 on some Boeshield T-9 or other framesaver then maybe you should step back and reconsider your priorities.
Maybe you should step back and not make unfounded assumptions.

Didn't spend anywhere near that much on the bike, but that isn't the point. The point is that the Liquid Wrench was actually available, but I have never seen T-9, HDMP, or Framesaver anywhere. I didn't choose it because it was cheaper.

Don't get so touchy, you said you had a new steel frame... and I said "IF you've just spent...." A lot of steel framed bikes nowdays are expensive, most of the budget frames are aluminum and are made offshore.

Your LBS can probably order some Boeshield T-9 or Trek dealers can get you Framesaver.

You can also order it from:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50252&cat=1,43415,43440

or from:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000AXYBD/002-9876342-9260023?v=glance

I have used the T-9. It's easy to spray into all the spots and I think it works well, but time will tell. The whole rust thing is for most people a bit of a red herring because bikes in most places are just not going to rust very much if you keep some paint on them. I rode a bike for 10 years in Vancouver and through that many winter monsoons and my bike, a steel framed Nishiki 12-speed, never got more than a few spots inside (at least were I could see inside ie. inside the seat tube).

A consideration is that some of the stuff being suggested, ie. linseed oil, may be hard to get the excess out of seatstays and chain stays of some bikes. You could end up adding ounces of weight to your bike.

Thread REsurrection time--

My latest sortie in the quest to find a cheaper framesaver has yielded Kellogg's Professional Penetrating Oil & Rust Inhibitor, KEL-132, $5 for a big-ass spray can at my local hardware store, and I believe, at Home Depot.

see here for a pic:http://automotive.hardwarestore.com/11-24-specialty-lubricants/penetrating-oil-and-rust-inhibitor-627084.aspx

I was curious about it, and finally pried the cap off to take a sniff. Smells and looks *exactly* like framesaver, and, as with framesaver, advertises that it will protect for one year. Even comes with a handy little red nozzle tip.

On T-9: a framebuilder I know used it, but said that it didn't protect as well as framesaver for rust (i.e.: he got some). I'm waiting to see what he thinks about the KEL-132.

A little bit of my favourite chain lube concoction (oil and varsol (paint thinner for my US friends)) injuected into the frame tubes with a disposable syringe and then the frame shaken around to distribute it evenly has been my only frame treatment unless I get the local rustproofing guy to inject chemical for me. My MTB spends as much time underwater during rides while river fording as much as it spends being dry. I have NEVER had a frame rust problem and my Miele is now 15 years old and going strong.

The BB unscrewed without incident just this summer.

The downside is you can't brag about how your frame treatment cost you about 25 cents.

And drill a couple of big holes in the bottom bracket to act as drains for condensation or water that get past the seat tube.

For those interested in the Amsoil HDMP here's a link to their Dealer Locator (http://www.amsoil.com/dealerlocatorresults/). (I'm not a dealer, just a satisfied customer).

And drill a couple of big holes in the bottom bracket to act as drains for condensation or water that get past the seat tube.
You're absolutely right....I forgot about that.

Thread REsurrection time--

My latest sortie in the quest to find a cheaper framesaver has yielded Kellogg's Professional Penetrating Oil & Rust Inhibitor, KEL-132, $5 for a big-ass spray can at my local hardware store, and I believe, at Home Depot.

see here for a pic:http://automotive.hardwarestore.com/11-24-specialty-lubricants/penetrating-oil-and-rust-inhibitor-627084.aspx.........

I'm surprised that a product sold as penetrating oil would be the same as framesaver (and I'm thinking of Weigle's product). Framesaver is clearly an oily wax that is made sprayable by a solvent that evaporates, leaving behind the waxy film. This later property seems absent (nor desirable) in most penetrating oils. Now there are some automotive sprays (e.g. the British Waxoyl) that might be very similar to Framesaver...

I'm surprised that a product sold as penetrating oil would be the same as framesaver (and I'm thinking of Weigle's product). Framesaver is clearly an oily wax that is made sprayable by a solvent that evaporates, leaving behind the waxy film. This later property seems absent (nor desirable) in most penetrating oils. Now there are some automotive sprays (e.g. the British Waxoyl) that might be very similar to Framesaver...

Yup, that's why I passed on it the first time at Home Depot when I asked them about rustproofing sprays. But if the smell test is definitive at all, it's the exact same stuff. Framesaver has a very distinctive smell.

Also looks the same out of the can. It might be "penetrating" in the sense that it lifts off rust. I did a spot test of frame saver and KEL-132 on a shovel with some surface rust, and both cleared up the rust pretty well off the sprayed spot.

^^^

I have a can of something in my basement that also smells just like FrameSaver, yet it doesn't dry like FrameSaver, it stay rather liquidy and can be wiped off.

well, I'll check out the shovel more closely and report back later.

For those interested in the Amsoil HDMP here's a link to their Dealer Locator (http://www.amsoil.com/dealerlocatorresults/). (I'm not a dealer, just a satisfied customer).

I was going to suggest the same link or do a yahoo or google search for Amsoil dealers in your area.

I used to sell the stuff when I was into racing cars. It's been good stuff to me. One oil change a year with only a filter change in between. Save me lots of $$. But since I sold my car I let my dealer status run out.

...and no, they are not related to Amway. The "AM" in Amsoil is from the founder of the company, AJ Amatuzio. :)

Good luck with everyone's frame endeavor, whatever you choose to use.

Yup, that's why I passed on it the first time at Home Depot when I asked them about rustproofing sprays. But if the smell test is definitive at all, it's the exact same stuff. Framesaver has a very distinctive smell.

Also looks the same out of the can. It might be "penetrating" in the sense that it lifts off rust. I did a spot test of frame saver and KEL-132 on a shovel with some surface rust, and both cleared up the rust pretty well off the sprayed spot.

The odor could be the same because one of the components is the same, e.g. the solvent. Does your stuff leave behind a brownish, waxy coating?

Framesaver is clearly an oily wax that is made sprayable by a solvent that evaporates, leaving behind the waxy film. This later property seems absent (nor desirable) in most penetrating oils. Now there are some automotive sprays (e.g. the British Waxoyl) that might be very similar to Framesaver...

Sounds just like Amsoil HDMP. I treated a brown frame recently with it and after it had dried I thought I found a run in the paint. Turns out it was the Amsoil, a brown oily wax.

remembered to check the shovel this morning.

looks like KEL-132, as suspected by all, IS a different composition. Framesaver clearly dried to a brown oily wax; the KEL-132 remained tacky, viscous, and oily. It'll do a good job as a moisture barrier on the shovels and lawnmower, I'm sure, but it might be a tad messy to stick inside precious bicycles. Oh well, I'm still looking. No Amsoil dealer within 100 miles of D.C.

Oh well, I'm still looking. No Amsoil dealer within 100 miles of D.C.

You might as well order it online then, unless you're willing to do a double century ride to get it, otherwise gas will cost you more than shipping would. :D

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=145

The prices compare with what the local dealers are selling it for. While you're at it you might want to get some of their regular metal protector (last item in the list above) too. It's a very good metal protector without the wax.

Interesting. AMsoil offers a very similar product range to Kellog Professional oils (i.e.: silicone spray, etc).

Sounds like KEL-132 is probably the same thing as AMSoil straight-up MP, metal protector without the wax.

And, for what it's worth, MP and HDMP are both marketed by AMSoil as penetrating lubricants. They recommend it for motorcycle and bicycle chain lubrication, actually.