Road Cycling - DA not worth the investment??

Many people tell me they chose Ultegra because DA is not worth the investment. I think it is for many reason's especially when it comes time for resale. Is it my imagination or does one usually get at least all their investment back if not double the extra cost of DA when it comes time to sell?

Originally posted by The Fife
Many people tell me they chose Ultegra because DA is not worth the investment. I think it is for many reason's especially when it comes time for resale. Is it my imagination or does one usually get at least all their investment back if not double the extra cost of DA when it comes time to sell?

it's your imagination

if that were the case... why would people buy anything other than DA? If i could make money riding my bike, because it had DA on it... I know I'd have sprung the extra $ for it.

I looked at a 10 year old bike, had DA stuff on it, $3000 new, guy was asking $700 and that was still too much.

Originally posted by Ritalin

I looked at a 10 year old bike, had DA stuff on it, $3000 new, guy was asking $700 and that was still too much.

The guy most likely got $700 for it. If had Ultegra (600) components, he would have asked perhaps $300 or $400; if that.

Originally posted by The Fife


The guy most likely got $700 for it. If had Ultegra (600) components, he would have asked perhaps $300 or $400; if that. . The guy was an idiot when he said a 10 year old raliegh cost $3000. If he got $700 for it,he found a sucker. P.T .Barnum was right. Old DA can be especially evil,because the shifters and rear derailers had unique cable pull/ throw ratios and had to be used together,rather than mix and match as with the rest of Shimanos index stuff.

High end bike components do not necessarily age well. Most of the additional expense goes toward esoteric materials (Ti or CF... e.g. Ti cogs do not last longer or work better) which reduce weight by a few grams, and have a better appearance. In some instances, there is notably better operation (DA vs. Ultegra shifters, e.g.). A meager portion of the additional expense buys better bearings, etc.

Of the reasons to pop for better componentry, resale value would go pretty far down the list, IMO.

I have DA on two of my road bikes, 105 on another. I originally bought Ultegra shifters and ders to put on on of the DA bikes, but had the misfortune of getting a set with BOTH shifters defective out of the box. I had already tried all the things suggested by tech support, but did them again just to be sure. The tech finally said they were defective so I sent them back for credit. Intellectually I know that this was an unfortunate situation and not a test at all, but it left an admittedly unfounded bad impression of Ultegra. However, it did give me an opportunity to handle the merchandise. DA feels more solidly built to me than both 105 and ultegra. I like that the small levers are metal on DA vs plastic on 105 and Ultegra. Properly adjusted DA shifts like a dream, crisp, quick and sure. I just like how it feels and will never settle for less. DA shifters and ders don't cost that much more than Ultegra.

I never even consider resale when thinking about bike components. I buy what I enjoy riding. One day I will break down and put Campy, probably Chorus 9sp, on a bike just to satisfy a chronic itch. Until then I will ride DA.

I would not consider DuraAce to be an investment- more like a waste of money. RX100 is good enough for the riding that I do.

Hey, I didn't think anyone else HAD RX-100. I asked about it once before but noone commented on it. My old Sirrus has RX-100. It seems to be about a step below 105, but it works pretty good for my level of riding too.

heres what i have found for anything that you invest money in...

you can get 90% of the performance for about 10% of the price, to get that last 10% of performance, you must pay about 90% more.

This is exaggeration, obviously, but think about it. think about your car, stereo, clothes, etc...

Good point, phatman.

I have ridden DA first because I got bikes at the shop I worked at and could afford it. Now, I believe in the durability of the major components. I will be switching my group over to a new frame this year or early next year. In another 5 years or so, I'll probably retire the DA stuff I have now for something better. The fact is, in my experience and in that of most riders I know, DA is more durable over the long haul than anything else Shimano makes, in general. (Note the in general. That means some components, like ti cassettes, aren't so much durable). There is a slight difference between DA and Ultegra out of the box, but five years down the road, that difference tends to become more noticeable. If you can afford it, go for it.

Originally posted by ChipRGW
Hey,My old Sirrus has RX-100. It seems to be about a step below 105, but it works pretty good for my level of riding too. It really was 105 with a different finish thay many actually preferred. Even a well setup RSX system shifts every time when you click it,but it does not come with style points.

My LBS says if you compare a $200 bike with a $500 bike the differences are phenomenal. If you compare a $500 bike with a $1000 bike, the differences are appreciable. Above $1000 the differences are marginal. Unless of course, you are a pro.

I have a$1000 bike. I would be exaggerating a bit to say that my riding style puts it to any real test. Shimano 105 throughout is just fine with me and should last at least 10 years.

webist, I think that's a good notion, but I really believe that a high end bike rides nicer than a medium range bike. It takes a discerning rider to feel the differences, and/or someone that does their own wrenching. There are some subtleties in more expensive bikes that make them more expensive, and more fun to ride. There is definately a point of diminishing returns, but there are still appreciable differences as you go up the scale.

So, let's see if I get this...

A $200 bike with $2000 worth of DA components is worth $200.

105 is good, Ultegra is better, DA is best, but...
Unless you are a hard core rider (read: racer) you probably won't really notice all that much of a difference if any other than style points...

I would change this statement to read:

If you compare a $200 bike with a $500 bike the differences are phenomenal. If you compare a $500 bike with a $1000 bike, the differences are appreciable. Above $1000 the differences are very personal...and made up of quality of workmanship, level of components and the bikes ability to take differernt levels of intensity and punishment by either a Pro or Knowledgeable amateur that tests his toys and ability.

:beer:

Originally posted by ChipRGW
Hey, I didn't think anyone else HAD RX-100. I asked about it once before but noone commented on it. My old Sirrus has RX-100. It seems to be about a step below 105, but it works pretty good for my level of riding too.

I had an old entry-level Specialized Allez back in the early/mid-90s with RX100. When I bought it, I had the shop upgrade the bike from the downtube shifters to SRAM GripShifts which I had mounted at the end of the drops. It worked pretty well.

Let me start with this. Nothing and I mean nothing shifts like a well tuned DA bike. But if you have a garage hook bike, (meaning a bike that hangs on a hook instead of being ridden), component level dosen't matter. I ride just about 12,000 miles a year. I have ridden all levels of componentry, they all work, I wear things out and break things. Dura Ace for road and XTR for mountain or a mix of both for touring, does, in fact shift better and last longer. However, higher level components don't tollerate poor tuning or misadjustment as well as lower end stuff. If you don't know how to keep your bike in tune or just don't bother, then go for the low end stuff. As far as bikes being an investment goes, I don't see how they can be, a frame maybe, but not a bike. When I build a new bike, I build it to ride, i tend to keep my bikes forever but if I decided to sell one, It would be quite worn out. If you ride your bike it will wear out, and if it's considerably worn, it's considerably worthless as far as monitary value goes. What gives a bike it's value is its heart, every bike, every frameset, has a personality all its own, if you ride them, you will find the one thing that it does better then any other bike you've ridden, and that one thing will cause you to bond with it and not want to part with it making it priceless to you and you alone. I have no one favorite bike, I have my favorite commuter, my favorite touring, my favorite racing, my favorite mountain and my favorite training bikes, they are all valued at just around $1,000,000 to me, to you, they would probably considered worthless but I don't care about that because they aren't for sale. I hope I cleared this up, I don't know how else to put it but that is the reality of it all.

Originally posted by mrfix
Nothing and I mean nothing shifts like a well tuned DA bike. If you don't know how to keep your bike in tune or just don't bother, then go for the low end stuff. I don't know how else to put it but that is the reality of it all. Opinion, applesauce, and thanks for sharing....Ones reality is anothers insanity?? I'm sure someone said that.

Walter Godefroot relates this story, which may be of interest to our community:

Freddy Maertens and Walter Godefroot were in a car familiarizing themselves with the course for the 1973 world championship in Montjuich, when a car containing Tullio Campagnolo came alongside.

Campagnolo asked who was going to win the championship. Godefroot pointed to Maertens and said "This one".

Campagnolo said:

"Oh God, no. Not him. He rides with Shimano parts"

Gimondi, using Campagnolo parts, won that day.

Originally posted by The Fife
.....when it comes time to sell?

You mean you can sell a bike?

Don't tell my wife.

:)

pokey, since you're so critical of opinion, can you reference some scientific (i.e., repeatable results in a contolled environment) tests that compare the shifting performance over time of 105, Ultegra and DA? That would be the factual evidence that any of us could point to, instead of applesauce.

Originally posted by Garbear
I would change this statement to read:

If you compare a $200 bike with a $500 bike the differences are phenomenal. If you compare a $500 bike with a $1000 bike, the differences are appreciable. Above $1000 the differences are very personal...and made up of quality of workmanship, level of components and the bikes ability to take differernt levels of intensity and punishment by either a Pro or Knowledgeable amateur that tests his toys and ability.

:beer:

I agree. Change what I said to what Garbear said.

I think I was approaching my LBS advice from the standpoint of affordability somewhat. The owner was concerned that people may not enjoy cycling on a cycle below $200 and blame it on cycling rather than the bike. The stretch to squeeze $500 out of the budget would yield substantially more enjoyment/comfort/ease of maintenance and durability, etc. If one could afford $1000, then one would appreciate the added quality/features. Above that level though, an open ended budget might yeild detectable increases in performance and satisfaction, but not likely sufficient to really impress the budget conscious with the difference.

I do not think that he was arguing that a bike above the $1000 range wasn't actually worth it. The value up there though would really be appreciated by those who look for top of the line workmanship and materials and artistry and the detectable increase in performance.

Some folks pay $1000 for a whole bedroom full of furniture. They end up with a place to put the lamps, a place to store their stuff and a place to lie down. Others spend $10,000 and also end up with a place to put their lamps, a place to store their stuff and a place to lie down. At $199 for the whole roomful of furniture though, things tend stick or come apart and quite possibly are uncomfortable.

I agree Dura Ace looks, feels, and tastes good, but ten years from now your bicycle will be worth the same amount. That is unless it hangs in your garage for the next decade. Save a few bucks and choose Ultegra, the same technology is used in both grouppos anyway. My advice would be to sell your geared bikes and opt a dependable, durable, and sexy single speed, or even better, the fixed gear. Less parts, more fun. Improve your spin and save a herd of bucks over the next decade replacing cogsets, chains, pullies, and faulty intergated shifters. Good luck.

Originally posted by ImprezaDrvr
pokey, since you're so critical of opinion, can you reference some scientific (i.e., repeatable results in a contolled environment) tests that compare the shifting performance over time of 105, Ultegra and DA? That would be the factual evidence that any of us could point to, instead of applesauce. Actually,I am a great fan of opinion if stated as such,but not opinion given as fact without support.There is a difference,but it escapes many, who prefer to operate forever in the applesauce mode.

Originally posted by pokey
Actually,I am a great fan of opinion if stated as such,

Well, I think when people read a forum, the rule is buyer beware. This is afterall the Internet and like most C compilers implicitly include stdio.h so should all users assume #include <std_disclaimer.h> and link against libdisclaimer.so which according to convention has among others, the following functions: mho(), imho(), ymmv() and tia().

DA seems to have been a worthwhile investment for US Postal and Lance!

I bet all those other guys in the Tour would gladly trade their Campy parts to be wearing that yellow jersey in Paris!

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
DA seems to have been a worthwhile investment for US Postal and Lance!

I bet all those other guys in the Tour would gladly trade their Campy parts to be wearing that yellow jersey in Paris!

CC, I don't recall anybody loosing because of their component choice failed. Personally, I would hope that nobody would buy anything just because a professional athlete of sorts uses it. Loyality of Pro athletes changes like the weather and the need of a pay check. Cyclists could care less as long as they can race for a living.

Equating USP and LA's use of Shimano and winning the Yellow Jersey to anyone's personal choice isn't worth a pound of beans. Campy nor Shimano can't win any race. All both technologies can do is stay intact during the race. Which both do and if they break, they have backups up the cazooooooo. :) Consumers Don't. :eek:

So to sum up the argu... I mean discussion, it is the general opinion that DA will outlast the cheaper versions? I look for durability and longetivity rather than lightweight or silky smooth shifting. I'm no Lance Armstrong and never will be so I guess I look at this in a different way to a lot of folks.

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
DA seems to have been a worthwhile investment for US Postal and Lance!

I bet all those other guys in the Tour would gladly trade their Campy parts to be wearing that yellow jersey in Paris!

Of course they would, they are not paying for them. Cippollini used to ride and win (with Seiko) on Campagnolo components. He now rides for Aqua e Sapone and still wins on Shimano. Its not the bike, its the engine that counts.

The way many of you guys (you know who you are) take a thread and turn it into a pointless argument--every time--is quite ridiculous. Here's a tip for the future for all those looking for advice on componetry via this forum: look elsewhere. Almost everything you'll get here regarding either Campagnolo or Shimano amounts to an earful of argumentative crap from brand fanatics. Thank you for your time.

Pokey, my opinions are based on over 175,000 real time road miles over the years, riding both Shimano and Campy equipment. Real world facts are, both component groups work equally well and precise when new, the Campy (record) get rattley and grindy much sooner then the Shimano stuff. On tour the shimano requires less maintenance and tuning issues to deal with and seems to tollerate more contamination for longer periods of time then the Campy record. The claim to fame on the Campy record is that it is rebuildable, Well, that may be true but lets see you find parts on a Sunday afternoon in the area of up state Maine, and do most cyclist know how to rebuild the equipment? I don't think so.
The bottom line is, Ride what you like and want to be seen with, My opinion has been formed based on real world, real road miles, day after day in the brooks. the Shimano shifts better longer, stays in tune longer, wears longer and rides quieter for longer and is just more dependable from a utility standpoint than the Campy stuff. If the miles I log are not enough of a test to form a valid opinion then ignor me. I don't race, I ride the bike, a lot and for many, many miles, I. Any component group can endure an afternoon event, I don't care who made it, Only miles can prove dependability, When you rack up a few, then share your component opinions with me, until then Pokey, take your bike off the hook and wear some parts out, unless of course your riding Dura-Ace or any other Shimano part, they don't wear out very quickly so it will probably take a while.

I would doubt that Dura-Ace would outlast other component lines. I've used Dura-Ace components in the past, and, for the most part, they are :
1) light
2) expensive, and
3) they wear out quickly
The only piece of the D/A package that doesn't wear out quicker than cheaper versions are the derailleurs. D/A cogs wear very fast, D/A chains are expensive, delicate, and not enough lighter to be worth the extra money. D/A brakes are very light, fragile, and so much more expensive than Ultegra, I couldn't justify buying them. And, as far as BB's go, D/A BB's are very expensive, and are very fragile. They also are poorly sealed from the elements. I know a guy that killed 3 of them in 1 summer-2 from dirt, and one that broke while he was climbing out-of-the-saddle. Those things cost $100 each! Even Lance Armstrong uses Ultegra BB's on steep climbs-the D/A BB is just too fragile for him to trust.
Aside from the derailleurs, D/A should be considered too exotic for daily use. It is designed for competition, not casual riding.

Alex, I'm riding the DA tripple, it uses a seal cartridge BB exactly like the ultegra, it cost $38.00. Ultegra is good stuff, all Shimano stuff is good stuff. I also ride an XTR 12 - 34 cassette and rear D. and as far as brakes go I ride avid shorty 8's. My bike is a touring bike, most of my riding is done heavily loaded and I'm also riding DA chains and have never had one break, I tried the SRAM chains but found them to be just a wee bit wider and they tend to make more noise. I like a quiet bike so I can hear the world instead of the parts rattling. My shifters are DA STI, I find them to be just a little better feeling with a shorter throw then the ultegra but I doubt they're any more durable. Parts don't usually break on their own, there is usually a tuning issue, a build issue or an abuse issue contributing to breaking parts, wearing them out on the other hand is normal over time. Everything eventually wears out if used, some thing just wear more quickly then others. The Campy stuff is light and very race worthy, It's just not durable enough for everyday loaded commuting/touring type cycling. It is however pretty and should be ridden with class, it definitly has its place on the race course. When properly cleaned and tuned it makes for a sweet ride.

Maybe I should clarify that I only use DA shifters and derailleurs because the main thing I want out of DA is the smooth shifting. Other parts are a mix, mostly 105. I use DA because I like it. Period. I make no claims that it is better than anything else. 105 works very well; Ultegra does, too. I ride enough, about 4000 miles per year, that I am willing to spend the extra money because it is worth it to me. Come to think of it, over half my miles over the last two years, 5000+, were done on my 105-equipped commuter so I guess I am an equal opportunity shifter. If I decide to put Campy shifters and ders on one of my bikes it will be strictly to satisfy my curiosity, not because I consider it better.
FWIW,
Raymond

Actually,I am a great fan of opinion if stated as such,but not opinion given as fact without support.There is a difference,but it escapes many, who prefer to operate forever in the applesauce mode.

Just asking you to show some facts to counter the present arguments. Can you disprove them?

Garbear: You are right about pro athletes influencing purchases, but I be that Eric Zabel would disagree about winning a race not being based on component failure. Granted, it wasn't the race for yellow in the Tour, but do you remember his feet coming out of both pedals in a sprint? Good Lord.

Like I said before, I think you should get DA if you can afford it and justify it to yourself. There are some really good points about component durability in the groups, and many of them are valid. To be absolutely clear, I run DA with the exception of my cassette and chain. DA does require more care in the bottom bracket department, but my 190 pound frame has yet to break one during a climb. They require rebuilding at least once a year, which I will admit is a pain. I will probably be running a non Shimano BB after the first of the year. But, from my experience, it's worth it in the long run. Ultegra is a fine component group, though, and will serve you well. A combination is probably the best way to go, or get the DA group and replace stuff with Ultegra when it goes out. Cassettes and chains are going to wear out quicker than anything else, hopefully. It's going to be your decision, Fife, but I hope that we've at least made it more confusing for you. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by FELONIOUS MONK
The way many of you guys (you know who you are) take a thread and turn it into a pointless argument--every time--is quite ridiculous. Here's a tip for the future for all those looking for advice on componetry via this forum: look elsewhere. Almost everything you'll get here regarding either Campagnolo or Shimano amounts to an earful of argumentative crap from brand fanatics. Thank you for your time. You sure nailed that one.Same for materials.

Originally posted by ImprezaDrvr


Just asking you to show some facts to counter the present arguments. Can you disprove them?
The statement..." Nothing and I mean nothing shifts better than a well tuned DA bike...." Is what needs supporting evidence (facts).Since I know of no scientefic supproting study, then the statement is opinion,and only one persons opinion no matter how much arm waviing they have to try to prop it up.

Originally posted by pokey
The statement..." Nothing and I mean nothing shifts better than a well tuned DA bike...." Is what needs supporting evidence (facts).Since I know of no scientefic supproting study, then the statement is opinion,and only one persons opinion no matter how much arm waviing they have to try to prop it up.

Pokey... I agree parcially. You appear to expect :eek: nothing but engineering type documented research statements, in one's passionate experiences or views... Just won't happen from multi-cultural riders with varying skills and knowledge of biking and diverse work b/gs and characters.

I've visited many discussion NG's on the net, and their all the same in this regard. Filled with passionate people that value their experiences and opinions and present them as if written in holy grail ;) research.

"since you know of no scientific supporting studies"... Is this statment any different then others. Am I suppose to assume you're the know all expert, and if you say it's wrong then it is. :confused: Or, could you be passionate about your opinions just like everyone else. :) :beer:

Originally posted by Garbear


Pokey... I agree parcially. You appear to expect :eek: nothing but engineering type documented research statements, in one's passionate experiences or views... Just won't happen from multi-cultural riders with varying skills and knowledge of biking and diverse work b/gs and characters.

I've visited many discussion NG's on the net, and their all the same in this regard. Filled with passionate people that value their experiences and opinions and present them as if written in holy grail ;) research.

"since you know of no scientific supporting studies"... Is this statment any different then others. Am I suppose to assume you're the know all expert, and if you say it's wrong then it is. :confused: Or, could you be passionate about your opinions just like everyone else. :) :beer: HFC,just call an opinion an opinion.I'll save the passoin for elswhere.

Well then, just spend your money any way you wish and what ever you do, don't bother to take anyones positive or negative experiences with any products into consideration. Try them all yourself and form your own opinions. While your at it, you may just want to throw a few hundred dollars out the window and let us know what that feels like.

Originally posted by mrfix
Well then, just spend your money any way you wish and what ever you do, don't bother to take anyones positive or negative experiences with any products into consideration. Try them all yourself and form your own opinions. While your at it, you may just want to throw a few hundred dollars out the window and let us know what that feels like. Actually I have tried pretty much all of them including DA annd Record, and don't feel I have thrown any money away,but that's just my friggin opinion. Opinions are highly subjective and vary from indivudal to idivudal.Why should yours be more valuable or carry more weight than the same from one who feels about Record as you feel about DA. Unless of course, you are the ultimate authority. Gosh, maybe you are? Who knows...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: .

I'm getting confused.
This thread was about "Is DA worth the investment (vs Ultegra)."
There is another thread about Campy/Shimano.
I do appreciate all the info; but it would be nice to have all this info under the Campy/Shimano thread. Thanks,
The Fife

Fife, to answer your question, probably not worth the difference, they all work well and I think you would be happy with either.
Sorry about the rant.