Classic & Vintage - Increasing braking power from older caliper brakes

I have two old 27 inch bikes and neither one of them has any real braking power. Maybe I have been spoiled with my modern DA brakes and the older ones are just crap in comparison but I would like to improve the stopping power without replacement if I can. I have replaced the levers but that did not seem to make much difference. I have read that buffing the old pads with a light sandpaper can remove surface glaze and grime and plan to do that. Does anyone know of other inexpensive ways to improve stopping power from older brakes? Should I do any prep to the rim itself?
Thanks

how fast you wanna stop?

What are the rims made a?

how fast you wanna stop?

What are the rims made a?

I am not a performance feak and am not a heavy weight at 160 lbs. I just want to be safe in traffic. The rims are alloy. It just feels like the pads are not gripping but I don't know how these types of brakes worked when they were new. Maybe that is the result of design.

Replace your pads with scott-mathauser red type. I think that compound's still available from KoolStop. The regular KoolStop compounds work pretty well too. I still like some old KoolStop "Continental" and "Supra" pads that I use.

I second the brake pad comment.

I would also clean and lube cables and calipers. I am servicing an old touring bike that I haven't ridden yet, but I took apart, cleaned and lubed the front caliper and it moves much easier than the rear caliper that I have not yet serviced. A good cleaning and a little grease on the pivot made a world of difference in the smoothness and ease of moving the brake. I was also able to ensure the brake has as little play as possible while retaining the freedom of movement

I strongly suspect that less energy wasted on moving the cables and calipers would lead to more useful pressure on the braking surfaces.

Thanks all.

When you say caliper are you talking about side pull or center pull brakes? If you are working on center pull you could fab a brake bridge like Sheldon brown has on one of his Ralieghs at his personal bike site.

Also try cleaning the braking surface of the rim. I usually use rubbing alcohol, but degreaser is probably fine.

Replace old brake cable housings and cables.
Replace old brake handles with aero-cabled ones to increase leverage by about 10%.
Replace all brake pads with salmon-colored KoolStops.
Replace any steel rims with aluminum, even if you don't care about the rotating weight.
You will get slightly more braking power with 27" rims than with 700C, which extend your caliper reach by 4mm.

On my wife's Super Course, I put Kool Stop pads on the Weinmann center pulls. That thing will now stop all 200 lbs of me just fine. Considering these are Weinmann center pulls, that is saying something!

I had the same problem with my WorldSport (rode in Bike the Drive with barely working breaks). All of the above solutions are helpfull.
IMO: make sure the wheel is very true and that the brake pads are very close to the rims. that way you get all the leverage available from the levers. (I also removed the suicide levers to get a little extra play) I often ride with my kids so it's really important to be able to stop unexpectedly

On my wife's Super Course, I put Kool Stop pads on the Weinmann center pulls. That thing will now stop all 200 lbs of me just fine. Considering these are Weinmann center pulls, that is saying something!
WOW, I'll have to try some on my bike. I let my 230 lb brother try my Campy Monoplaner brakes and he couldn't stop it. I don't have those problems with my 150 lbs though. I do agree with the OP about new cable, casings and pads. Levers really don't seem to make a big difference.

Tim

You are right about these old brakes-they are a bad joke.I pulled out my old bike-vintage 1977-with sidepull brakes that were "good" back then.Rode it a bit-hit the brakes-what a surprise-nothing happens fast.
Brakes are the one real change I have noticed in the 15 or so years I was old of biking-they actually work.Even cheapo bikes have great brakes.I will see if I can clean up the rims-maybe roughen them a bit-they are really slick.Thanks.Charlie

Phoebeisis-
Looking at your pic, I noticed you have the front brake shoes on backwards. The open end of the brake pad holder should face to the rear so the forward motion of the wheel doesn't push the pad out of the metal holder. Switching them probably wont improve the braking performance but will make your setup much safer. Check your rear pads too. The open end should face to the rear of the bike.

Phoebeisis-
Looking at your pic, I noticed you have the front brake shoes on backwards. The open end of the brake pad holder should face to the rear so the forward motion of the wheel doesn't push the pad out of the metal holder. Switching them probably wont improve the braking performance but will make your setup much safer. Check your rear pads too. The open end should face to the rear of the bike.
Right to all the advice above, plus TOE-IN really makes a difference, not just to prevent/lessen squealing. If you understand the principal, you see that as the rotating rim grabs the pad, it drags the pad from the leading edge to the trailing edge against the rim surface as the caliper arms slightly twist with this action. Flexy old single pivot calipers really won't allow for full surface contact of ANY pad unless you compensate for this by toeing-in the leading edges of both the front and rear pads, and full contact gives you better braking with whatver pad you use. KoolStop Continentals are still available, BTW...I like 'em.

WOW, I'll have to try some on my bike. I let my 230 lb brother try my Campy Monoplaner brakes and he couldn't stop it. I don't have those problems with my 150 lbs though. I do agree with the OP about new cable, casings and pads. Levers really don't seem to make a big difference.

Tim

I learned the (almost) hard way after a ride on my Raleigh International that was then equipped with Weinmann sidepulls. I was riding fast down a steep hill approaching Old Town San Diego, where there is a four way stop sign. I applied the brakes (?) and was still doing about 20 MPH as I sailed through the intersection. Fortunately, no other cross traffic was there to kill me. The vintage Weinmann pads did make an interesting noise as they failed to stop the bike, though, warning pedestrians to clear the way.

I bought a nice set of period correct Dura Ace brakes and levers for that bike. Incorrect is better than dead, IMHO!

On my wife's Super Course, I put Kool Stop pads on the Weinmann center pulls. That thing will now stop all 200 lbs of me just fine. Considering these are Weinmann center pulls, that is saying something!

Not really. I've said this many times, but it's worth saying again: there is absolutely nothing wrong mechanically with the old centerpull calipers. Not a thing. The greatest share of the advancements in braking power of the last thirty years come from three things:
1. Aero levers. These make an enormous difference.
2. Modern brakes and housing. Slicker cables and lined housing are a significant leap over older technology.
3. Brake pads. Not only are modern brake pads just plain better, the old brake pads on these bikes get pretty dried out and degraded over years of disuse.

The difference in braking capability between older and modern brake calipers is pretty minimal, as they are all designed to provide almost identical amount of mechanical advantage. Aside from the items listed above, the weak points are overly flexy cable stops for centerpulls (a lot of the old cable stops really are crap), pivot points in desperate need of lubrication, and flexy, stamped caliper arms on particularly cheap sidepulls (such as older three-speeds often have). Note that the ubiquitous Weinmann and Mafac centerpulls do not suffer from this latter problem. They are as stiff as you could possibly like. They have the added benefit of plenty of clearance for bigger tires and fenders. It is quite a bit more difficult to find modern calipers with these advantages, due to the ridiculous style trend of unnecessarily tight clearances and other "racing" fashions which confer no actual advantage in racing.

There's no need to replace your brake calipers to improve your braking! Don't do it. Always happy to save you some money! :D

I learned the (almost) hard way after a ride on my Raleigh International that was then equipped with Weinmann sidepulls. I was riding fast down a steep hill approaching Old Town San Diego, where there is a four way stop sign. I applied the brakes (?) and was still doing about 20 MPH as I sailed through the intersection. Fortunately, no other cross traffic was there to kill me. The vintage Weinmann pads did make an interesting noise as they failed to stop the bike, though, warning pedestrians to clear the way.

I bought a nice set of period correct Dura Ace brakes and levers for that bike. Incorrect is better than dead, IMHO!

I have Weinmann 999 centerpulls with old brake pads up front and it stops me fine. I also have kool stops on the rear, but I get plenty of stopping power up front where it matters. I probally don't have the original pads up front.

I haven't had much luck getting good performance from the Weinmann Vainquer centerpulls, but I will vouch for the Mafac Competition centerpulls. I had these on a couple circa 1970 Gitane Tour de Frances and they were certainly near the top of any brakes that I've had on any bikes. That includes modern dual pivot Shimano Ultegra and Dura Ace. I never could get the squeal out of the Mafacs though, so I replaced them with period Campagnolo sidepulls ((Nouvo)Record on one bike and Victory on the other).

Grolby full of lies said:
"The difference in braking capability between older and modern brake calipers is pretty minimal, as they are all designed to provide almost identical amount of mechanical advantage. Aside from the items listed above, the weak points are overly flexy cable stops for centerpulls (a lot of the old cable stops really are crap), pivot points in desperate need of lubrication, and flexy, stamped caliper arms on particularly cheap sidepulls (such as older three-speeds often have). Note that the ubiquitous Weinmann and Mafac centerpulls do not suffer from this latter problem. They are as stiff as you could possibly like. They have the added benefit of plenty of clearance for bigger tires and fenders. It is quite a bit more difficult to find modern calipers with these advantages, due to the ridiculous style trend of unnecessarily tight clearances and other "racing" fashions which confer no actual advantage in racing.

There's no need to replace your brake calipers to improve your braking! Don't do it. Always happy to save you some money! "

Grolby you really shouldn't spout out this mis-information. Modern brakes are MUCH better, modern rims are MUCH better. I like vintage parts as much as anybody but I agree with the other poster previously who said that even the lower end brakes on modern bikes are way superior. And I'm telling you that with new braided cables, compressionless housing, meticulously lubricated, tightly adjusted to perfectly cleaned alloy rims, with newer aero brake levers, older side pull, and yes older centerpull brakes aren't very good! Face reality! I know its difficult, and we want to believe our vintage steed can be as good as the young, vibrant whippersnappers with those impractical, sexy, low clearance stylized brakes, but really, you are going to have to surrender your old school notions or face getting slammed by tons of general motors steel on our overfilled SUV laden roadways. Even that idyllic descent in the country approaching the lovely burbling brook can potentially end in a catastrophic paradigm shift (a.k.a. spending the next 6 weeks in your local urban hospital with a head injury, and a fractured pelvis on the understaffed orthopedic ward for instance). Just had to rain on you parade a little. Give the guy some correct advice: adapt some Shimano dual pivots for your old steed and get your wheels relaced with some halfway decent modern machined sidewall rims O.K.
Have a good day,
Thanks for letting me vent. from masi61






[COLOR=DarkGreen] :( :(

You know a thread's in trouble when someone uses the term 'paradigm shift'. 'Cognitive dissonance' is right around the corner.

Wow-OLD YELLER-Good eyes!!I had noticed the brake shoe was bass akwards last week ; I was having to "stuff" the actual pad back upstream.I wouldn't have figured someone old enough to remember Old Yeller would have such sharp eyes-thanks!!
Unworthy1- Do you mean sort of beveling the rear of the pad so that as you go forward the pad becomes thicker?Let me know,I might try that.
Here are some pictures of brake pads-they-the increase in surface area- tell some of the story,but the materials and the surface of the rims are probably more important than the surface area increase.
The Scott/Mathauser pads(about 1980 vintage) came in a bag with these #'s
Campagnolo=.4896 sq inches
Mafac .4680
Kool-Stop .4980
Scott/Mathauser= .8660 sq"
The XTR V brake is about .100" bigger than the Scott/Mathauser-but it works much ,much better in it's system(rims,pad material,rims,less flex,less stretch in cables-housings)
The 27" Super Champion rims on the Mercian(blue) have no little"dings-texturing" on the surface-the 700c Super Champion rims on the Sekai(black) have lots of ding prints on the surface of the rim.I'm guessing the "dinged-textured" rims are later models-late 70's both.They must have been trying to improve braking.
The V-brakes on the dept store Diamondback are much,much ,much better than the best 70's vintage Campagnolo Super Record brakes(nothing super about the calipers-same as NR,but drilled levers) on the rims of the day.The Diamondback has machined rims,and no doubt better pad material.Thanks.Charlie

Early brakes weren't really brakes in the normal sense of the word but, merely speed attenuators. The first real brake that I ever used was the Mafac Racer more of a cantilever type. I now weigh 220 and when I was younger was a svelt 185. I tried Weimann, universal, campy and nothing was ever very good, and yes all the "tricks" above were uses by the old school riders. When the Mafac Racer came out in the 60's it was the first good bike hand brake ever. Now the double pole brakes by campy are excellent. I never have to leave the hoods even bombing down the roads of the front range in Boulder. The same is true of the Mafac brakes I have on my 1969 Cinelli which I still ride on occasion.

Grolby full of lies said:
"catastrophic paradigm shift"
[COLOR=DarkGreen] :( :(

"Depress clutch before shifting paradigms."
John Suntour, Planet 10

Historically, bicycle brakes have had about a 4:1 mechanical advantage in the handles (make that 4.5:1 with aero cabling) and about 1:1 in the calipers. (Centerpulls have 2:1 leverage per side, but since they are wired in parallel, we are back essentially to 1:1.) What I find interesting is the wide reported variation in the effectiveness of various brands and models of brakes. For example, I can attest that the first-generation Campag. sidepulls on my Bianchi are the worst-performing brakes I have ever owned, despite their short reach, Shimano aero handles, new cables and housings, and KoolStop salmon pads. (I scared myself riding the bike down a hill with Shimano pads.) I cannot reasonally explain why they are so bad, but they are.

I would like to ask another question directly related to this topic. I just purchased two old road bikes. Both have side pull brakes and braking on both is poor compared to our bikes with cantilever or V brakes.
I have a set of old Schwinn center pull brakes. Is there more mechanical advantage with the center pull brake compared to the side pull? Since one of the bikes is an early 90's Schwinn, I was considering changing to the center pulls, but don't want to waste time if this is not a distinct improvement. My other question is, can I bend/adjust the section of the brake that holds the pads to lessen the angle of the brake pad or is there a high risk the alloy metal will break. (No pun intended.) Currently, the angle is so severe the pads do not straigten to make full contact even when applying maximum pressure on both bikes.
I've posted pictures of the front brakes of the Schwinn Caliente and the other bike, a Ross Signature 290S. You've already answered all my other questions on the previous posts on this thread. Thanks!

The pads are definitely toed in way too much on the Ross. There's a special tool for it, but I use a crescent wrench with duct tape padding on the jaws to bend them. I've never broken one that way, but it's scary when you're bending an expensive vintage brake.

I think I was losing my mind when I made the post you are referring to. I really must lay off the caffeine! The "paradigm shift" comment was a joke by the way.

Grolby you really shouldn't spout out this mis-information. Modern brakes are MUCH better, modern rims are MUCH better. I like vintage parts as much as anybody but I agree with the other poster previously who said that even the lower end brakes on modern bikes are way superior. And I'm telling you that with new braided cables, compressionless housing, meticulously lubricated, tightly adjusted to perfectly cleaned alloy rims, with newer aero brake levers, older side pull, and yes older centerpull brakes aren't very good! Face reality! I know its difficult, and we want to believe our vintage steed can be as good as the young, vibrant whippersnappers with those impractical, sexy, low clearance stylized brakes, but really, you are going to have to surrender your old school notions or face getting slammed by tons of general motors steel on our overfilled SUV laden roadways. Even that idyllic descent in the country approaching the lovely burbling brook can potentially end in a catastrophic paradigm shift (a.k.a. spending the next 6 weeks in your local urban hospital with a head injury, and a fractured pelvis on the understaffed orthopedic ward for instance). Just had to rain on you parade a little. Give the guy some correct advice: adapt some Shimano dual pivots for your old steed and get your wheels relaced with some halfway decent modern machined sidewall rims O.K.
Have a good day,
Thanks for letting me vent. from masi61


It's not misinformation at all. I won't pretend that the old centerpulls are just as good as modern brakes, but they are close enough that, by strategically chosen upgrades, you can get braking power equal to that of modern calipers for a lot less money. Let me be clear: modern calipers are no better designed in terms of basic mechanical function than the old centerpulls. There is nothing about the design or construction of the new calipers that makes them any better at their job than the old ones. The only weakness within the actual caliper (at least with Weinmann centerpulls, with which I have the most experience) is that the brake arms are a bit flexy. Modern manufacturing techniques and better materials mean that new calipers are stiffer. There is no doubt that this a weak point, but the principal victim in braking performance due to flexy brake arms is not actually stopping power, but modulation. For small change, you can upgrade your Weinmanns, Universals or Mafacs to the point that they will be quite capable of locking your front wheel. That's the limit of braking power right there, and all those old brakes are perfectly capable of reaching it. There's nothing wrong with the design of older brakes (well, the centerpulls anyway - the crappier sidepulls really were pretty godawful). There have been very real improvements in brake levers, cables and housing.

I have never claimed that the old brakes are equally as good as modern dual-pivot calipers, but the loss is primarily in modulation and adjustment. A bike with centerpulls and a bike with modern calipers have the exact same limit on braking power. The new brakes are easier to use, especially at the very edge of maximum braking power, but my point is not to say that the centerpulls are equally good, my point is to say that they are close enough that there is no good reason to spend the bucks to upgrade your older bike to modern brakes. It is spending a lot of money for a small improvement in braking performance.

The problem of inadequate braking on an old bike may be completely solved with a $25 pair of cheap aero levers, fifteen dollars in cables and housing, and twenty dollars in brake pads. That's sixty bucks right there, but it could cost as little as 40, depending upon the prices you find. Obviously, you save even more money by not upgrading to new levers. You can definitely go after that last remaining bit of braking performance and buy some new calipers, but you'd be throwing at least as much money as you've already spent again for the least amount of improvement. I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm not interested in spending money that I don't have to. I'd be offended if someone tried to sell me a new bike equipped with centerpulls, but I don't see any reason to replace the ones that come on the old bikes I pick up at thrift stores and garage sales. If you want to pay the price, go for it. It's your money. But I suspect that most people would rather save a little something for retirement, or ice cream, or something.

As for rims, well, I said nothing about rims. I will say that the 20 year-old Ukais on my touring bike are doing just fine, thank you, but those were pretty good rims. Rims and wheels aren't really something I know anything about, so I tend to refrain from comment on them.

EDIT: By the way, I am a young whippersnapper! The touring bike I refer to above is about six months younger than I am. I ride another bike with a frame that is an unknown number of years older than I am and a three-speed hub that is 21 years older than I am. It's not necessary to be young to appreciate the old school. Besides, there are plenty of things about old bikes that really did suck, especially the derailers and steel rims. Heck, even the brakes really aren't that great. They just aren't that bad either, so there's no need to replace them. ;)

Here is the link to a brake stiffner; http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-international/pages/international-nexus07.html

Hijack in progress...

I have decided that instead of pimping it out I will use my 1979 Schwinn Suburban as a commuter. I have switched to alloy rims and will ensure the brakes are lubed and adjusted properly. I will also have new pads (but not Kool-Stops... yet).

I am not opposed to drilling, so in case I decide to move to dual-pivot, I am curious about suggestions for bling-free dual-pivot brakes. Would it be a relatively safe assumption that all dual-pivot brakes better than the older calipers? My comnmute is only about 5 miles round trip, but there are some hills, and I am a clydesdale, so braking is a concern for me.

Thanks for any suggestions

Good morning Grolby: Thanks for the calm, rebuttal to my rambling, over the top rant. :) . I'm an old old schooler as well. I guess that's why I get ticked that there isn't more of an aftermarket for quality brakes for our older bikes. I have the same Puch Marco Polo touring steed now that I had when I was a teenager. I keep it for sentimental reasons but also because its a very comfortable riding, classy bike! But good braking is not something I'm nostalgic about. :( This bike came with Weinmann centerpulls which I no longer use (but maybe I should go back to them HMM... :rolleyes: ). I had Gran Compe sidepulls on them for many years and last summer I put a clean pair of Shimano 600 sidepulls on along with Ultegra holders and Kool Stop salmon pads in the front. My rims are 27" Wolber #58's and I keep everything clean. I live in a very hilly area and as I become more fit, I become a faster rider, and I'm not timid when it comes to descending on technical backroads. This is why the set-up I just described above is a little scary and definitely marginal in the emergency stopping department. I purchased 2 Shimano R600 "long reach" dual-pivot brakes last fall for this bike (2 fronts since I have a frame that requires nutted mounting). I started the install but put them back in the box for now due to the rear caliper arm interferes with my Blackburn rack, and the front fork needs to be drilled out in the back with an 8mm drill bit in order to accept the recess nut. The old 600 brakes with the Kool Stop pads are about the same as the Gran Compes that had Shimano standard replacement pads.
I guess I'll conclude that by saying that putting this much into making a bike only "marginal", is about enough to discourage all but the most devout cyclist. I'm on the verge of swapping out my front fork for a Ritchey steel cyclocross front fork and using V brakes or cantilevers.
And for the new bike I'm building I plan to invest in the best dual pivots available: Shimano Dura Ace 7800's, and I plan to use Cane Creek aero brake levers since I don't use STI.
Have a good week, from Bill (masi61)

Wow-OLD YELLER-Good eyes!!I had noticed the brake shoe was bass akwards last week ; I was having to "stuff" the actual pad back upstream.I wouldn't have figured someone old enough to remember Old Yeller would have such sharp eyes-thanks!!
Unworthy1- Do you mean sort of beveling the rear of the pad so that as you go forward the pad becomes thicker?Let me know,I might try that.
Here are some pictures of brake pads-they-the increase in surface area- tell some of the story,but the materials and the surface of the rims are probably more important than the surface area increase.
The Scott/Mathauser pads(about 1980 vintage) came in a bag with these #'s
Campagnolo=.4896 sq inches
Mafac .4680
Kool-Stop .4980
Scott/Mathauser= .8660 sq"
The XTR V brake is about .100" bigger than the Scott/Mathauser-but it works much ,much better in it's system(rims,pad material,rims,less flex,less stretch in cables-housings)
The 27" Super Champion rims on the Mercian(blue) have no little"dings-texturing" on the surface-the 700c Super Champion rims on the Sekai(black) have lots of ding prints on the surface of the rim.I'm guessing the "dinged-textured" rims are later models-late 70's both.They must have been trying to improve braking.
The V-brakes on the dept store Diamondback are much,much ,much better than the best 70's vintage Campagnolo Super Record brakes(nothing super about the calipers-same as NR,but drilled levers) on the rims of the day.The Diamondback has machined rims,and no doubt better pad material.Thanks.Charlie No (and I'm no engineer, so bear with me) I am talking about just angling the new, square pad so that the "leading point" or front of the pad is closer to the rim than the back or "trailing point" of the pad, as viewed from above looking down on them from a riders position. It is like they are "pigeon toed" if they were feet. In almost every rim brake the action of the rotating rim making contact with the stationary friction material causes the pad to twist slightly as pressure is applied, and the pad essentially flattens out and actually makes better full surface contact on the rim. The reason (so I'm told) that some brake pads squeal is that pads that are set "square" to the rim are actually lifting up slightly at the leading edge, when pressure and the rotating force of the rim come into play, and this sets up a vibration that makes noise. I'm assuming that if the pad is making full contact with the rim that wear should be even from front to back, though YRMV, I know mine has.

This is very nice discussion--even with the "paradigm shift" parts :); about a very important topic. I learned a lot of useful and important information from reading all of these posts. Thanks!

I ride around on a '64 Mercury 3-speed quite alot. People ask me what the old sneaker in the basket is for. I tell them it's my front brake. I just jam it in when I want to stop. Haven't gotten around to carving up some wooden blocks to replace the pads yet - prob'ly would work better. :D

I ride around on a '64 Mercury 3-speed quite alot. People ask me what the old sneaker in the basket is for. I tell them it's my front brake. I just jam it in when I want to stop. Haven't gotten around to carving up some wooden blocks to replace the pads yet - prob'ly would work better. :D
that's so hot, thanks fo rthe giggle

I'm probably being dense, but after studying the picture of Sheldon's centerpull stiffener, I can't see what it's stiffening. I'm trying to exaggerate the movements of the various components in my mind's eye and about all I come up with is the pivot bolts tending to go a little 'crosseyed', up and in. What am I missing?

Your cross eyed visual seems to be on track...

This is my hypothesis based on seeing this stiffener, and other stiffeners for other brakes (cantilever etc).

It helps by ensuring that there is as little flex as possible between the two pivots.

The pivot point is a fulcrum with the pressure being inward by the cables in order to move the shoes inward. The shoes exert outward pressure in the form of resistance.

If you try to lift a heavy object with a large lever, you would look for something as solid as possible to use as a fulcrum... the stiffener is performing the task of strengthening the fulcrums of the brake arms.