General Cycling Discussion - LBS expensive?

I'm not sure where this post would go best but I'll give it a try here :)

Today I went to a LBS (and this is one I'm increasingly losing faith in :() anyhow I noticed a sign on the side of the wall, saying

per hour labor rate:
$50 standard work
$75 if you watch
$100 if you do the work
$150 if you try first and get it wrong

and I thought to myself, it seems a bit pricey to be $50 for a bike mech, but maybe thats a normal rate (I rarely have them do work as I do it mostly by myself) but the prices at 75 and up seem well kinda messed up to me, I can kinda understand why they would charge more if you were going to ask them to explain stuff to you, but mind you this is a small LBS, shouldn't they let you watch for free? maybe I'm dreaming about a LBS who doesn't worry about rent and other costs of running a shop but I figured they would at least let you watch for free. :rolleyes: oh well

so is this an unusual price rate or am I just not informed?

haha thats funny...My shop has some funny stuff all over it but I always forget. If that is a serious sign they are jackasses. If it is meant for humour then it is good. :)

100 to do myself. LOL

i heard an analyst talking about the recent hardship placed on Circuit City because they stopped selling large appliances. When a refrigerator or a washer or a dryer or dishwasher goes out, you need to get a new one. so now they don't get that 'need' purchase, they only get the video games, t.v.'s, DVD's, computers, etc which are largely discresionary purchases. and during the recent economic downturn, they don't get that 'need' purchase anymore.

and i thought about how a LBS gets business. keeps business. did i need that new cage i bought today? did i need that skullcap i bought? my wife has already told me that i sure as hell don't need another bike....i saw that lightspeed tuscany today.....

"per hour labor rate:
$50 standard work
$75 if you watch
$100 if you do the work
$150 if you try first and get it wrong"


That's an old joke, I've seen various forms of it in many garages, plumbing companies etc. Anywhere that a do-it-yourselfer either tries to get free instruction, or a cheap fix for a botched repair.

thats a very old joke. seen it for years all over.

25/hr if we do it
50/hr if you watch
75/hr if you help
100/hr if you took it apart first.

thats how i've seen it.

ecco.

My lbs are laid back. They don't mind if I ask questions and they don't mind if I have a look either. Only problem I have is that they like bikes, I like bikes, and that makes a quick in/out visit somewhat rare. If they look after me, then I do business with them. It's a win-win for both of us.

We "had" a sign in our shop that read:

"Labor rates adjusted according to customers attitude!"

L8R

Mmmm...bike shops don't really charge $50 p/h do they?! My LBS, which going on the price of their parts is one of the most expensive around, charged me $16.50 for 1.5hrs work yesterday.

Do you guys know what it's like to be working on a customers bike and have them watching? It's bloody annoying!!!:crash: Those signs are jokes though, for the most part.;) Most of the shops here have the work room in plain sight, so it would be pretty hard to avoid the extra cost if it was really enforced.

Originally posted by a2psyklnut
We "had" a sign in our shop that read:

"Labor rates adjusted according to customers attitude!"

L8R

We need one of those in our shop.

Originally posted by fubar5
Do you guys know what it's like to be working on a customers bike and have them watching? It's bloody annoying!!!:crash: Those signs are jokes though, for the most part.;) Most of the shops here have the work room in plain sight, so it would be pretty hard to avoid the extra cost if it was really enforced.

I agree. It is very distracting when I am trying to true wheels and I have a customer looking literally right over my shoulder. I tell the customer in a sarcastic tone, if you wanna learn to do what im doing perhaps you should take a look at the repair books that we sell over there. It usually gets the point across.

You are right! $50/hr is outrageous! Maybe we should take our bikes to attorneys for repairs. :D


Seriously, though, folks. Small businesses have to charge fair prices to stay in business. They don't buy in quantities of millions like Wal-Mart or KMart. When it comes to tecnical things like electronics, cars, or bikes (yes, they are technical) I learned long ago that you get much better service at a specialist shop with knowledgable employees. I buy a lot of stuff from my LBS that I know I could get cheaper and often faster online. Does that mean I will pass up a super deal online? No, but if there is something I want or need that my shop stocks or can get, I most often buy it from them.

When it comes to working on my bikes I do most of it myself, primarily because I just enjoy it and get a sense of satisfaction. Many time, though, I will gladly pay the shop to do things that I know I could do myself because I know I will not have time to do it any time soon.

Next time you think your LBS or any small business is expensive stop and think a minute about the fixed costs of running a business. Rent, utilities, loan payments on inventory, salaries, expensive specialized tools, etc., all have to paid every month whether you sell anything or not. Believe me, your LBS owner is probably not driving around in a Mercedes or BMW, and bicycle mechanics are as chronically undervalued and underpaid as teachers.

Also another note on the side of lbs. Commonly after 1 or 2 trips they start to swing deals. I rarely pay very much for labour anymore and I can stand and watch for free cause I KNOW the techs.

That or maybe that case of beer I brought the crew for keeping my bike going all year got me cheaper prices :D

Originally posted by RainmanP

Next time you think your LBS or any small business is expensive stop and think a minute about the fixed costs of running a business. Rent, utilities, loan payments on inventory, salaries, expensive specialized tools, etc., all have to paid every month whether you sell anything or not. Believe me, your LBS owner is probably not driving around in a Mercedes or BMW, and bicycle mechanics are as chronically undervalued and underpaid as teachers.

And...... advertising, health insurance, taxes, support to that local cycling club, chamber of commerce, little league team and giving you that discount you always want because the LBS is sooooo rich:p

I don't know, and it depends on the location (costs of living vary), but I've heard $30.00. Doesn't seem completely unrealistic when you think about it. You have to pay for the mechanic ($1.50/hr+workmans comp, etc. ;)), overhead (rent on the shop, heat, etc.), tools, plus the shop has to get a cut.

Originally posted by WorldIRC


I agree. It is very distracting when I am trying to true wheels and I have a customer looking literally right over my shoulder. I tell the customer in a sarcastic tone, if you wanna learn to do what im doing perhaps you should take a look at the repair books that we sell over there. It usually gets the point across.

No, that's OK. Take it off the stand. What do I owe you? See, rather than being shooed off by a snotty mech with a crappy attitude, I'll just head over to that other shop. You know, the one where they like their customers and like showing them how to do simple things that they might enjoy doing on their own. I guess that shop figures that knowledgeable customers will have more fun, be drawn deeper into the hobby, and spend far more money than they could make on an occasional wheel true.

I'm sorry you're having a bad day. Let me just leave you here by yourself to sort things out. I won't be bothering you again.

To echo what many have said already, it's very hard to work on equipment when someone's breathing over your shoulder. How many people you know complain about someone READING over your shoulder--multiply that by someone trying to do his or her job. My favorite is the guy who comes in with a really messed up bike, after trying to fix it himself, and then giving us attitude about it. :crash:

Not sure what other problems the original poster is having with his LBS, but anytime a customer asks me how something is done, I gladly pull out a bike, or his/hers, put it in a repair stand we have on the floor and show him/her. Mostly, customers just want to know the little stuff that seems incredibly esoteric, and it takes just a few minutes.

Lastly, Maelstrom has a great idea; I don't advocate tipping your mechs, but it's nice to hear as little as a "thanks." Everybody likes to hear that a job was done well--of course, we don't complain if you choose to tell us with cookies, etc. :thumbup:

for one, the reason I thought this sign was the real deal, is that they wanted to charge me $50 for roughly an hour worth of work (to convert 1 campy ergo shifter to a 9spd from 8 spd, even though I provided instructions and cog)

secondly I had a episode with them, I went to have my wheels trued, and it turns out I built the wheel wrong. I went to pick them up and rebuild them, and they told me they were laced wrong, (although this was not the only problem). I took the wheel back rebuilt it and returned to the shop and asked if they could check to make sure they were right, the guy said another mech would check them (turns out he was the only wheel builder, but no one ever told me that) anyhow I still made a mistake, so I returned to the shop for the 3rd time to try again, I asked them if they could tell me exactly what was wrong (as they really never had before) there were two mechs there, one said 'without getting into a wheel building class, it's hard to say, and it's very intricate...' the other mech said, that the problem was the spokes are going to the wrong side of the rim. so again I went and rebuilt and returned. I asked if they could make sure they were right, and the only wheel builder said no still, but he wouldn't show me what was wrong, he only looked at them and said they were wrong. Then he said, 'you know you should just have us build them for us, the nipples are pretty chewed up anyhow and to true them I'd have to charge you for building anyways.' so I asked how long building would take and they said it wouldn't be till tuesday (and this was thursday). I left with my wheels in hand and rebuilt them again (eventually got it right). the point is that they never showed me what was wrong even though I asked, it's not like I never go in there (I've spent a lot of money with them) and was going to order some more parts that day. I also had prepaid to have the wheels trued, ($20 for two wheels) building costs $25 per wheel so I would have had to spend $70 to get my wheels true.

Basically no one would really show me what's wrong, (all they had to do was spend 5 minutes telling me the problem) but no one did, mainly because only one mech really knew, but they never told me that! so in the end when I saw this sign, I figured with this lbs it could be serious.

Let's guess that it takes a customer base of 5000 people to keep a bike shop in business. Could be more or fewer. I don't really know.

Let's use the number 5000 and imagine 10 minutes of free advice for each, while the owner pays the salaries of the advice givers, who are chatting with you for free.

That's 961 minutes per week or 16 hours for which the shop earns no money. In the mean time, there are people's cycles waiting there, who are willing to pay. These folks are getting angry and impatient and thinking about taking their bike to another shop because thier service is delayed by 16 hours each week.

I'm still guessing. But, I think the shop would last about 3 weeks before going out of business.

Give 'em a break.

So how much does it cost for a shop to lose
customers due to the fact that they won't answer
a relatively simple question?
Next question: How much will said shop earn due to
secondary sales etc. because they DID answer a
question?
The LBS I deal with actually answered questions
about wheels I was building, gave me some suggestions
and for their trouble got to sell me tools,
truing stand, rims, hubs, tires, glue etc.
While I could get almost all of this stuff cheaper
I will continue to support my LBS because of
their answering a few simple questions.
Besides, how many customers actually ask about
building wheels? can't be all that many.
Marty

I almost always take my bike to a chain in Carlsbad, because the mechanic there is top rate and really takes care of the stores' customers.. I meet cyclists about town and they rave about this mechanic. I trust him completely. I go twenty-four miles out of the way because he is so good. I want the best for my bikes..
Anyway I was riding about Temecula two days ago.. There is one of the few independent cycle stores left . Hardly any left anywhere here in San Diego area..
But to my surprise, they had a tremendous variety/brand of bikes and new bikes at very reasonable prices.. Not that another store will cause me to consider using another store, because its' mechanic is top notch.. However, I did think the independent had a greater offering of bikes..

Lotek.. This store I previously mentioned- its' mechanic spends a lot of time talking to customers about bikes and bike needs. I know we take up a lot of his time. This person is really a bike fanatic. He races probably 250 miles a weekend. He loves cycling.All his cycling friends use his store. He is just a store employee...
Anyway, I know his time benefits the store. His helpful nature frequently leads to the sale of something. I hope the store realizes this.. The mechanic has a vested interest in the stores-well being... they should realize his helpful nature is really in his own self interest..
I have used stores where the mechanic is not involved with the customer.. Seems they are not very busy..

well the end result in the whole thing is, that I felt stupid for making 3 trips and getting no results, plus embarassed in front of mechs and cyclists cause I couldn't get it right on my own, regardless of the shop making money it made me feel like I didn't want to go back there, but maybe I am overeacting.

Originally posted by VegasCyclist
Basically no one would really show me what's wrong, [deletia] mainly because only one mech really knew, but they never told me that!

Well, it's not just your bike mechanics. I'm constantly amazed by the pains some will take, even unconciously, to avoid admitting they don't know.

Regarding the other sub-thread, I know I don't generally work well with someone looking over my shoulder. It messes up my concentration. And if it's someone who's trying to second-guess what I'm doing and critique... well, it sux. If I want to watch, I'll ask if it's okay. It just seems like courtesy. Plus, I don't want to p!ss off the guy working on my bike!

VegasCyclist,

Thanks for clearing up the issue regarding you bike shop; I think Lotek pretty much got the service you should have. Also, as someone else put it, the mech. is there for the shop and has is vested in its success. As an LBS employee, I'm not there just to butter my ego or make money (for me or the shop); I'm there to keep people on their bikes and get people onto bikes (as I tell folks, the more people I get on two wheels, the less I have to worry about on four when I get out there). I see myself as an ambassador to the sport, and anything I can do to further that cause is important. In short, the owners of our shop opened thirty years ago because they couldn't get the kind of service they wanted at the local shops of the time. We now have the only two stores in town; can't tell you the number of them that have come again--at least a dozen. This attitude is why.

My advice--the next time you feel like you're not getting the service you desire, do two things: take your business elsewhere (and tell the new shop exactly why you've come there--motivate them to give you service), and call the old shop's owner and tell him/her exactly why he/she has lost your business--you ought to see our owner when he gets a negative call (and you should also see him when he gets positive feedback). :beer:

Watching while you work? Most customers are either no problem or welcome due to tastelessly enjoyable humor, general good vibe, or other positive factor. One of my favorites is a trucker who plies the stormy seas of I-5; you think cyclists have scary road stories? Another is a pathology tech--enough said there!Mechanics not helpful? Individual personality chemistry is one possibility, also a "numbers first" mindset on the part of a manager or store owner. Helping customers try to do their own work is actually good for business--they figure out why paying for work is worth the money and special order tools are a good item, too.

Regarding the sign- we have an interesting one at the hotel where I work. It reads:

Our service manager is Helen Waite. If you need service go to Helen Waite.

Glad to know that it is a joke. Otherwise, I don't think I even wanna consider cycling as a sport.

TrekFurthur is right on… “I see myself as an ambassador to the sport, and anything I can do to further that cause is important.” A good mechanic is more than a service, it is shop “good will” and it’s what draws in the repeat customers.

I’ve done a decade in network administration where the “grunt work” was doing “end user trouble tickets”. We had two types of administrators:

Those who would go out on the shop floor and yank the user’s PC, bring it back to the “secure” server room, fix whatever difficulty and return the unit. Their mindset was they could do the repair quicker without a constant stream of annoying questions as to what went wrong and what were they doing. They tended to be junior in status.

The second type of administrators would go out on the shop floor and have the end user share with them all the issues that lead up to the failure, then they would endeavor to accelerate user’s learning curve on appropriate counter measures to avoid a reoccurrence. Needless to say, those “ambassadors” were far better received and much more effective in the long run. Oh, those ambassador Admins were typically the senior tenured staff.

“Good will” created by an ambassador is invaluable to a shops credibility and perceived worth. It is appears that the lion’s share of LBS’s main profit’s come from the margin they make on the sale of bicycles and parts, not on service fees.

I took up mastering the art and science of bicycle mechanics years ago after I had a wheel (poorly done by a LBS) fail and left me stranded many miles out on a bike path. Needless to say, I didn’t take the wheel back, but I did determine the shop owners name and wrote a polite but concerned letter sharing the reason he lost a customer. Until I learned to do my own work I would drive two hours round trip to a top tier trusted shop referred to me by my fellow riders.

I don't mind if customers watch me while I'm working on their bike.. Infact I'll move slightly so they can see. It just becomes very distracting when they are right up next to you asking you whats this whats that. I even tell them what I'm doing when I'm doing it.

Originally posted by faith
“Good will” created by an ambassador is invaluable to a shops credibility and perceived worth. It is appears that the lion’s share of LBS’s main profit’s come from the margin they make on the sale of bicycles and parts, not on service fees.


I don't know about that for sure. I will say that everyone in my LBS is working on maintenance, and interupts their work to handle sales and service visits and phone calls. Once finished, each returns quickly to a maintenance stand. The bikes hanging and waiting for maintenance or pickup clearly outnumber the number of new and used bikes on the sales floor.

My guess is that maintenance and service is what covers the overhead and makes it possible for there to be more full time folks in the shop whether they are doing maintenance or sales at any given point in time.

No shop could survive on what the maintenance and repair bring in; those fees barely cover the mechanic's salary. Think about that the next time you quibble about paying for having a tube installed, or some such other service. No one complains about paying to have their car serviced; as such, it never ceases to amaze me how much people will complain about the LBS charging for the service it provides. Many customers just seem to think they're entitled to . . . heck, they just seem to think they're entitled.

Sorry so grouchy; a similar post on another board kind of set me off today :fight: Many of my customers are friends and riding companions, but the others are probably the same folks who hit the horn at you just when the light turns green. If everyone had a little patience and a little compassion, the world would be a lot better off, we'd all get the service we wanted, and we'd probably get to work faster. I know--tall order, huh?

Originally posted by TrekFurthur
No one complains about paying to have their car serviced...

I cannot recall a single instance of car repair that I did not feel as though I was being taken advatage of. Not one. I've even seen bills where there were more hours charged for labor than the total amount of time they had the car!

No one complains about paying to have their car repaired?

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Webist;

On your LBS observation: “bikes hanging and waiting for maintenance or pickup clearly outnumber the number of new and used bikes on the sales floor” Rest assured this would be a marked exception in the Washington DC Metro area. In fact the bicycle retailer with the largest presence (eight shops) offers “Free Lifetime Service” for original owners (limited to adjustment only, not normal wear).

I spoke with a mechanic at the most respected (top tier) shop in my area and he mentioned that the majority of his time went to prepping new bikes (they are noted for delivering a flawless product). I purchased a part from this shop (owing to convenience and support of their excellent service department) and noted that the part was marked up 2.5 times that of the going “Web” price. However, the mechanic did know the exact part I needed and “got it right the first time.” That’s why they are still in business after twenty years.

As I view it, the difference between commercial automobile and bicycle repair is a bicycle is largely a discretionary purchase, where as the automobile (for better or worse) is considered obligatory. For the most part, I have found those in the bicycle industry tend to be true believers in cycling as a sport &/or wholesome pursuit. I’ve not meet many monetarily focuses mercenaries employed at the LBS level. However, I may be naïve on this, though I trust not.

Originally posted by webist


I cannot recall a single instance of car repair that I did not feel as though I was being taken advatage of. Not one. I've even seen bills where there were more hours charged for labor than the total amount of time they had the car!

Webist, I didn't say nobody had problems with how their bills were computed by auto mechanics, just that nobody goes in to get a brake and lube job and expects to get it for free! :confused:

Originally posted by TrekFurthur


Webist, I didn't say nobody had problems with how their bills were computed by auto mechanics, just that nobody goes in to get a brake and lube job and expects to get it for free! :confused:

No, but in many places, if you go in and pay for an oil change, they will check/fill all of the other fluids, lube the steering joints, and vacuum the interior and clean the windows.

My LBS has shown a willingness to do a little more than they really have to.
The first one I went to, sold me tires and then charged me 8 dollars extra to put them on.
The current LBS did not charge extra to put them on. In fact, they brought me in the back and showed me how to do it so I could change a flat if I needed to.

Someone gave me clipless pedals. I bought shoes and cleats from the LBS. They put the cleats on the shoes for me, pulled out a trainer, threw my bike on it, then spent time with me to teach me how to use them and get them adjusted. Also let me spin on the trainer till I was comfortable clipping in and out.
They go the extra mile for me, I'll spend the extra dollar in thier store.

Originally posted by ChipRGW

No, but in many places, if you go in and pay for an oil change, they will check/fill all of the other fluids, lube the steering joints, and vacuum the interior and clean the windows.

They go the extra mile for me, I'll spend the extra dollar in thier store.

My oil change people do that and give me newspaper to occupy me while I wait.

My LBS certainly goes the extra mile for me as well. Indeed, I have yet to get a claim ticket for a repair or adjustemnt. They just yank a bike off the maintenance stand and put mine up, fix it and give it right back.

They know where I prefer to make all my bike related purchases. I am also careful to make certain that they know folks who are coming in because I sent them.

Actually, maybe they like me also because they know I'd rather use money than a tool to repair my machine.:p

Originally posted by webist



Actually, maybe they like me also because they know I'd rather use money than a tool to repair my machine.:p

That always helps. :beer:

Originally posted by ChipRGW
Someone gave me clipless pedals. I bought shoes and cleats from the LBS. They put the cleats on the shoes for me, pulled out a trainer, threw my bike on it, then spent time with me to teach me how to use them and get them adjusted. Also let me spin on the trainer till I was comfortable clipping in and out.
They go the extra mile for me, I'll spend the extra dollar in thier store.

this is the type of lbs I 'thought' I was going to, until the stuff with my wheel happened :( so now I go to another shop, but I'd like to have one who goes the extra mile like you had there..

Well Vegas,
It is in thier own interest.
They sold me my used road bike.
In fact they've sold me almost everything I bought since I started riding, which is admittedly not a lot of stuff.
They do see me getting more and more addicted. They are kind of acting like the proverbial "crack dealer". You know, "here you go, that'll fix you up nice. No, no, this one's on me...".
They see me drooling on the pretty Pinarellos, Fujis and Merlins on the rack and they know if they treat me right, they stand to make quite a few bucks off of me.
Like I said, "you rub myback, I'll rub yours". Fine by me.

ChipR

here,s my lbs story: i went to one of the top line lbs in our town looking for a fairly good p/resistant tyre for my back wheel the very knowledgable guy showed me a specialised turbo s-works with a price label of $130 on it ,i said "very nice but too expensive for me " he says ile let you have it for $80 as it,s the only black one left & most people buy them in pairs so i bought the tyre thinking ide secured a bargain! i was impressed with the tyre as ive never had a puncture yet ( i shouldnt have said that )anyhow last week i noticed my front tyre was looking a bit dodgy ,i went to a differant lbs near were i work looking for a more moderatly priced tyre, mentioning that i liked the s-work but it was a bit too pricey , he asked me wat sort of price i was looking @,i mentioned $70 ,he said the s-works was$69 !! i said HOW MUCH ?? he took a step back & said ile let it go for $65 !!!!! needless to say i now have a matching pair of turbo s-works tyres & guess where i wont be shopping !:(

Gosh all the horror stories about bike shops.

From what I have heard, no one gets rich owning a bike shop. I figure that by in large, what we get from bike shops is subsidized by the owners (who accept a low return on their investment) and the poeple who work there (who accept low wages).

I think comparing a local bike shop's (LBS) prices to the lowest prices on the web really is not fair. A bike shop has to pay the rent, they have to pay a salary and they have to have the inventory. You can go in and actually SEE what you are buying and if it is clothing TRY it on.

Also they provice support. That place you buy things from on the web will not repair your bike.

Now does this mean that the LBS is always right? Of course, not. Every human institution is rife with errors.

But many of them do a pretty good job at a more than reasonable price and we are lucky to have them.

faith's posting brings up a good point, and part of a bike store's overhead. New bikes, the out o' the box kind that bike stores load in the back door, can be extremely raw material. Despite the lies that are told to bike dealers by their reps and vendors, NO BIKE IN THE WHOLE F*&%ING WORLD can be handed to a customer in good conscience without between 90 minutes and 2 1/2 hours of assembler and mechanic/inspection time in it. Factory assemblers are just that--they slap parts together. Bike company product planners think too much from marketing and nowhere near enough from engineering--any mechanic or salesperson can tell you that there really is a phenomenon known as a "defective spec;" a product choice decision by a bike vendor that results in a product that will never work well for a customer--the best stores will fix these problems, the customer will never know they existed, and the store will either eat the cost or spend more $/time browbeating the rep to cover the cost or doing creative bookkeeping to accomplish same. These high-quality stores (I used to work for one before starting my own business--where I don't sell new bikes) are advocates for customers in their warranty dealings with bike vendors, and also cover problems that bike mfgrs. won't acknowledge as existing!
These stores are more than dealers for a bike line--they are an extension of the bike company's engineering and quality control staffs.