Mountain Biking - Bike building advice

Well I started mountain biking back in april 02 and I, at least in my opinion have progressed quite rapidly. I am currently on a hardtail, and cannot wait to make the switch to FS with the kind of terrain I like. However, I want to get another year and a half out of my current bike before getting a new one. So my plan is to get a frame within the next 6 months or so and build it up. I might scavenge some parts off my current bike like my thomspon stem and post, and maybe my wheelset. So my main dilema is trying to figure out what type of frame I should be looking at. I know Im a little ways off from getting it, but im the type who likes to research long before a purchase.

If I was looking to get a complete bike, I wouldnt want to spend over 2300. With that in mind, my dilema. From my riding experience, I have found that I love cross country riding, but also the freeriding. I would also like to get into XC racing. So my question; what would be a good hybrid bike that could make me competetive in races, but also supplement my desire for freeriding.

Heres a url, Im looking at the Dawg Dee Lux

http://konaworld.com/2k3/2k3bikes.cfm

What do you think of the Dawg , and do you have any other suggestions?

thanks

I’m not quite sure i understand what you said so i need a little clarification.
Are you going to buy a frame in 6 months and take a year to build it up?
If so i would go the opposite direction or just save all that money and buy all at once, and here’s why.
Frames can change dramatically from year to year but the compo's don’t change too often (but ****mano is going through a change right now.)
Now the draw back is you dont know what size of certain compo's to buy like seat post, front derailleur etc. So honestly i think your best bet is just to keep all that money in the bank (or under the bed) and buy all your parts at once Unless of course you are going to do the build over a relatively short time.
I'm building up a bike right now that's going to take time because I’m low on the fundage but i have the frame (2003 stumpjumper comp HT warrantee) and i bought cranks (2003 XT) bb (2003 xt) chain, cassette and a few other little extras that have already changed or more than likely wont over the next couple of months. My projected complete date is 3 months.

My suggestion is to get a full suspension frame, an adjustable travel fork and two sets of wheels. One set, a lightweight race set for those longer XC rides and for racing, and a second burly set for those days you want to abuse yourself.

Frames to consider, (In addition to the Bear), would be something like Specialized's Enduro, or Trek's new Liquid, Marin's TARA line of bikes. There are others I didn't mention as well. There are a lot available these days. These are frames with 4-5 inches of travel that can be set up in a variety of ways depending on the riders use. They are good "do-verything" frames.

I just recently bought an Intense Uzzi. This bike has 4.5 inches of rear travel and can be set-up in a variety of ways. If you put a lightweight wheelset on it, some aluminum cranks and a lightweight fork, (Manitou Black, Marzocchi Marathon, RS Sid), it would be a super fast, race worthy trailbike.

I've got mine set-up with big heavy DH wheels, a long travel fork, heavy chromoloy cranks and big fat tires. The bike is a tank and rides over anything. The bike weighs about 33-34 lbs, but it's built to take anything my fat-butt can throw at it. If I were to loose some weight, I'd consider switching to lighter components and wheels, but for know, I want indestructible.

L8R

The problem that I'm having in looking for a duallie is finding a really all purpose bike. I've decided that I value a lighter weight, more cross country oriented design over a monster "freeride" bike. The newer long travel bikes handle cross country riding a lot better than they did a few years ago, but they're still not on par with some of the lighter and differently set up cross country rigs. I'm looking at the new Specialized Epic bikes, and, as mass marketed as they are, Giant's cross country duallies have a really good design without having travel that's too short.

My point is that, in my experience, you ahve to decide what kind of riding you'll do most and go from there. Or, buy a couple of bikes...

The dawg / Bear is one of the best pedalling, all round bike available. I don't know technology, I only know if I get on that bike and try and rip through trails it handles medium hits, if I find a hill I can pedal hard and the bob and jacking is insignifigant. It is a mostly all purpose bike (xc / ds / light freeride). Very much worth the money invested.

And to answer your question about racing. You can't. Depending on the intensity of your freeriding you can't get a frame that will be good enough to both race and freeride. The dawg and similar geometries will come close. But I don't think anything could do it.

If this forum is making, or ever makes any profits, they need to pay you two (a2psyklnut and maelstrom) for all the help you give out.

Anyways, I checked out the Trek Liquid 20, and it looks like a sweet frame. The Geometry definitly looks more raceworthy than the Dawg. So im kinda shifting my interest towards the Trek.

You guys know much about the Psylo XC fork. Im not sure what i remember, but I thought I heard some bad things about it. Another feature I like are the Bontrager Disc Tubeless wheels.

http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2003/mountain/liquid20.jsp#largerview

Just send money, check or I even accept paypal. j/k

Psylos historically have had some problems with the bushings wearing out prematurely. I've not experienced this yet, or I may never. But other than that they seem like a decent product. Supposidly, this was taken care of and remedied in 2003 product line. Time will tell.

I'd still rather have a Marzocchi!

L8R

Yeah, thats what I heard about the Psylo. Im not too worried about that, but whats a different fork comprable to the Psylo XC that might be a better option.

Originally posted by Pharcyde
If this forum is making, or ever makes any profits, they need to pay you two (a2psyklnut and maelstrom) for all the help you give out.


:o



Anyways, I checked out the Trek Liquid 20, and it looks like a sweet frame. The Geometry definitly looks more raceworthy than the Dawg. So im kinda shifting my interest towards the Trek.


I would think that has a very similar ride to the dawg / bear. The fuel series may be a bit stiffer allowing for a better xc 'racing'.



You guys know much about the Psylo XC fork. Im not sure what i remember, but I thought I heard some bad things about it. Another feature I like are the Bontrager Disc Tubeless wheels.


Depending on the terrain I don't think tubeless are required. They are heavier (I may be mistaken but I commonly hear this) and they ride 'funny'. Try them first.

Since I am not a xc guy I can't comment. Rock Shox make the lightest xc forks but I have only heard bad things about their strength. Since I am a big guy that leaves me with Marzocchi and Fox. I had a run in with fox so I don't support their fork. I also have experience with the lowest end marzocchi fork, the exr, and it held up to my weight and riding. That is impressive for a cheap xc fork. That is my basic assesment. I will let someone with actual experience with that fork comment.

Marzocchi Z-3, or the Dirt Jumper 2! Or, you can spend a bit more and get the Z-1, or the DJ-1.

The SC Shivers are sweet as well but that's a "money is no object" type purchase!

L8R

Kona makes some wicked xc duallies. I have ridden the king kikapu (sp) and it is stiff enough to allow some serious pumping while still soaking up small to medium hits. My uncle races the mokomoko (no longer made). They are definately worth look at for strength and lightweight.

I thought going tubeless was far lighter...Im not sure where I heard that or what I am confusing it with if im wrong. But does anyone know for sure?

See if this debate gives you any info

http://www.mountainbikereview.com/oneonone/oneonone_tubeless.html

The Dawg is a great frame. It is last years Bear with a new name. It will let you do all that you mentioned.
Swaping parts from your bike. Well, I am pretty sure that the seat post wont fit. Also you components most likely not fit either.
My wife has last years frame that we built up and it rides great and can handle some abuse to.
If you are going to be doing more xc then freeriding stay with the original shock on it. If you think you will do more fr or just like to try and get some serious air then I would highly suggest putting a coil over shock on.
You said that you are not looking to get a bike soon but my LBS has 2002 Stinkys for 1300usd and the Stinky Dee-Lux for 2000usd. They do mail order also.

Slainte:beer:

Im still definetly considering the Dawg. But Im also looking at the Trek Liquid 20. What do you think of that bike Dude?

Two more things. Would my 30mm thomson post and thomson stem fit on any of these bikes? And isnt the stinky pretty much a freeride bike?

The stinky is a freeride bike.

The Stinky is a fr bike but it can be set up for xc. I do not know much about Trek bikes since I have never ridden one or know of any one who has.
I will always go with Kona over most others. The only frames would get besides Konas are custom made and run about 3000 for just a frame.
Trek is a reputable co. from what I hear so my suggestion would be to get the one that fits the best. Find some bikes already built and test ride them.
Your seat post will work. Kona uses a 30mm post. Your stem should also work since steerer tubs are pretty much the same size unless you use the new 1.5 but that is another thread.
Granted I am biased towards Kona but every one I know that has owned one never had any complaints. The only complaints I have ever heard were from riders who have never ridden one.

Slainte:beer:

Just remembered, there is a guy in our club that rides a Trek but his is stricly a xc racer and it is all carbonfiber. He loves his bike. He will not use it though for jumps or drops though other then what he may encounter on a xc race corse.

Slainte:beer:

But DirtBikeDude,

you would probably agree (you may not) that the stinky could be used for xc but could not be raced xc. It isn't built for it, unless you could lock everything out in some way.

Pharcycle i just looked at the fuel 20 today and i agree with you that it's a sweet bike for what you're looking for. Geometry is spot on and it has the talas and adjustable fork. If i were in your shoes i'd look at the liquid 20 and upgrade the fork to whatever you want with the money saved. As for the enduro it's a sweet bike but this is going out on a limb, but the top tube on the enduro seems a little longish for those types of thigs. If you have any more questions that i might be able to help you with a little better e-mail me

ahh long day at work. thanks for the replies

Since my job involves sitting around on my ass, I thought about this all day. The Trek liquid 20 seems like a great choice, as well as the Kona dawg/bear.

And do you guys think that since Im aiming to make this bike cross compatible, and somewhat raceworth, would downgrading to v-brakes be a decent idea to save some money and weight?

I wouldn't suggest "downgrading" to Vee brakes. If the bike has discs stick with them. They're a little heavier, but the performance is incredible and you'll want the extra stopping power if you get into some freeriding.

If you did go the vee's, switching back to discs would cost you 3x's as much!

I wouldn't rule out the Specialized Enduro, especially if considering XC riding. The longer top tube will stretch you out more and be more "race" oriented. As a matter of fact, Specialized lengthened their top tube from previous year's models to make it a more racer friendly/enduro type bike. Plus, I love 4 bar linkages with a Horst link, the only "fully active" suspension design. IMO, the best design available.

Also, check out Giant's bikes. Their ACLite may be something right up your alley. Also, they have a new design the "VR" I think (not too sure on this one!). Giant makes a nice bike and you can usually get a better component spec than most other manufacturers.

L8R

I have to agree with A2 on "downgrading" to V Breaks. Disks dont weigh too much more and more lowly people like me are looking to upgrade to them so stick with a thing and keep them. As for the enduro i agree with you A2 that the four bar is the best out there. I have an FSR and love the bike, but as of this year i dont like specialized too much anymore. They put way way too much hype on that epic and they're already starting to break, but the enduro will be in it's 2nd full year of production so you wont have to worry about a lemon. Great bike. Just to get an idea what kind of terrane(sp) are we talking about Pharcycle and how competitive of racing?

Wel I have looked at the Giant VT (variable travel) and it too looks like a sweeet bike. I guess all the 03 bikes in my arena look sweet, and im still considering it. Im not sure which of these bikes (trek liquid, kona dawg, Giant VT or Spec End) have the longest top tube. The trek, at least from looking at it has quite a bit of room in the cockpit.

As far as what kinda of terrain I like Peter, I like your basic rooty rocky XC terrain, and I like the fast downhill rough terrain. The trail I usually go to (Tiger Mountain WA) is a 3 mile climb up a logging road and them another 3 miles of downhill. The downhill consists of long switchbacks that add up to a lot of speed. There are TONS of heavy duty roots, rocks, ruts, and drop offs. The drop offs range from about 1 foot to 3.5 feet in height, and most are in quick succession. And since they are straight ahead, theres no ned for slowing down, so I just bomb over one, land hopefullly, go over the next, all at pretty high speeds. Then Once I get a little better, I wanna learn to huck off drops, ladders etc. I have pretty good balance, so I can do a lot of the stunts like getting up in the birdges and big teeters, but dropping off is a problem unless i can get some speed. So thats the kinda of riding I do, and I am looking to get into some racing next year. So terrain = rough xc, some downhill, stunts.

OK, well i think i can help you out some more.

If you're looking for more of a hucking bike with out a doubt get the Kona. If you're looking for a mix of a huckster/epic/xc bike get the liquid. For the fastdownhill climber bike get the Enduro and for more of a comfort bike get the VT. The VT isn't a hucking bike by anymeans and i'd wait a year on that new manitou shock to see what happens with it

heh, I was thinking the same thing about the manitou on the VT. But yeah, I basicaly want a bike that can do it all.

From your description of riding style, I'd say you're looking for a lightweight freeride bike.

My advice is still the same. Get a good bike set up for your freeride days, and buy a second set of lightweight wheels you can switch out for "raceday" or "epic xc" days.

Not to beat a dead horse, but my Intense could easily be built up in the 26 lb range and still be a capable sturdy bike. One that wouldn't kill you on the climbs, yet strong enough to have "fun" on the downhills.

All of the bikes mentioned could be set-up in similar fashion. I'd also add to your list a Yeti AS-X:http://www.yeticycles.com/1_bikes/as_x.html
or a Santa Cruz Bullit: http://www.santacruzmtb.com/bicycles/bullit/bullit.asp

The Yeti was almost my next bike. It's very sweet, but pricey.

The Bullit is probably the cheapest quality freeride frame on the market. I've seen these built up with a Marz Monster T and Trailpimp wheels, and as lightweight FRers with Spinergy wheels, RF Next Cranks...etc.

Both are very capable bikes you may consider adding to your list.

L8R

i wouldnt race either the Bullit or AS-X on a cross country course

A2, that yeti looks nice, but a bit outa my price range. I scoured the trek page looking at the different liquid models, and videos showing off the technology. I have to say that trek has done an amazing job marketing their new product and technology. There website is so very informative, and well made, that alone has kind of sold me.

So right now, im leaing more towards the enduro and the liquid. I like the liquid because its a take off of the fuel design, but with the 5 inches adjustable front and rear travel, it makes it somewhat freeride compatable. Not for 20 foot drops or anything but capable of taking some pretty good hits. I cant think of anything that would make the enduro better or worse then the liquid as of now, maybe once reviews start coming out, and more information arises, it will become more apparent. Both bikes would suit my riding style perfectly I think. The liquid did however have one review which was short yet highly favored the bike. It was from mountainbike.com.

Oh yeah, and what do you guys think about the pivotless rear suspension on the liquid?

you would probably agree (you may not) that the stinky could be used for xc but could not be raced xc. It isn't built for it, unless you could lock everything out in some way.

When I used to race xc I always used my freeride bike. I was able to keep close enough to the other racers that i could put some serious distance between them and I on the dh parts of the corse and I did not have to slow down for the realy tech sections.


i think the Dawg would be your best bet. It's geometry will allow you to use it for xc racing but the frame will still handle some freeriding.

Slainte
:beer:

the "pivot less" rear suspension should be fine. They've been using that on the fuels for forever now and i've never heard a complaint about it. PLus it's not even really pivotless it's got a main pivot at the bottom bracket and rocker arm. the only thing those do is flex a little in some way shape or form that no one has figured out what it does yet. So i think it'd be fine

Just got back from a wet, slippery, muddy ride. But thats not a bad thing, I LOVE getting dirty.

Anyways, what do you guys think about the float R forks. The Dawg has the R series front and rear. I looked at the Fox site and this fork doesnt seem to have adjustable travel or a lockout feature. I may be wrong, at least they did not specifically say they did.

I just ask because the trek liquid has 5 inches back and front adjustable travel with lockout, which seems more fit to freeriding. Im not sure how sturdy the frame is as compared to the Dawg, but it looks good? I know they have different geometries, but between those 2 what do you guys think?

http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2003/mountain/liquid20.jsp

http://konaworld.com/2k3/2k3bikes.cfm

You must be looking at the Dawg Deelux. The fork on the dawg deelux is stiffer and better for freeriding than the trek. I don't like rockshox for anything but xc. I just don't think they are strong enough imo.

The Dawg deelux is a better bike imo also. I think it is a great bike, tough and a good pedaller.

This isnt pivotal in my decision but does the Float R on the dawg have lockout and or adjustable travel?

The Float R only has rebound, and also its an air fork. I have a Float RL and personally I don't use the lockout too much. What I can tell you is that the fox's have 32mm stanchions and 38mm legs. Nice and very stiff. Also the Fox's are, as I believe, to be the smoothest forks on the market. Adjustable travel is used soo much as a marketing gimick. Yeah its nice, but on the trails you use you are going to keep hte same setting until you go someplace in a different demographic. Its overrated. My bike is in the shop, and I am riding a Mantiou Black. Alls I can say is that I long for my fox. The steering precison is really incredible. It never deflects, it soaks everything up.

Well I have rambled on too long now. Later

the fox forx have internally adjustable travel. The floats only go up to 100mm travel, the vanillas go up to 125mm of travel. The float R only has adjustable rebound, RL had rebound and lockout and RLC has rebound, lockout, and compression adjustment. I'd agree with maelstorm about rockshox, they aren't the greatest, but i cant say i know one person who has broken a psylo. but i'd ride it till i break it because it's a coil fork and not too much can go wrong with it

had to add that i just checked the geometry and the Kona is much more of an xc bike, it's got a 70 degree headtube vs a 68.5 on the liquid, now i dont know if thats at full travel or not but it's interesting, oh and for the specs the kona gets my vote

Originally posted by PeterG1185
had to add that i just checked the geometry and the Kona is much more of an xc bike, it's got a 70 degree headtube vs a 68.5 on the liquid, now i dont know if thats at full travel or not but it's interesting, oh and for the specs the kona gets my vote

The Dawg is designed to be a dead centre between freeride / ds and xc. It works as it very very well.

As for the Fox. I don't like fox as I had a small run in with there tech support (as in they never called back). But I hear excellent reviews about them and wouldn't let a fork change my decision on a bike. Heck I bought a Kona Roast with the Marz EXR (the lowest end fork Marzocchi makes) just because the roast suited and road like a dream. I feel the same about the bear/dawg and plan to buy either that frame or the stinky in the middle of next summer. :)

ok SORRY GUYS, I dont mean to be a pain in the arse here but I think this is my last question.

Anyone know how much the Dawg frame alone costs? And does the front fork and rear shock come with it?

I was just thinking, and I couldnt imagine that frame costing any less than $1,000. Add a fork to that, given the fork doesnt come with the frame, then its around $1500. If the retail price hovers around 2k, how could disc brakes and all the other componentry come in at that price. Is it more expensive to build up a bike than purchasing a complete bike?

I know its a stupid question, but im trying to figure out my financial situation. One of the reasons Im doing this is because my 02 rockhopper ht is probably going to significantly drop in value over the next year or two. So im thinking that getting rid of it sooner rather than later would let me get a little more money out of it.

Its almost always easier and cheaper to buy a full bike (2300 cdn for the whole bike) and then eventually replace parts as you brake or need new ones. That way the bike will work off the bat and you can find out which parts you might like to upgrade later.

It isn't a stupid question, but it is a reality of bikes. I don't know many people who can build a bike cheaper than buying a full bike premade unless they get aftermarket parts really cheap.

Maelstorm is right because with a whole bike you're buying the parts with it too at about 25% the origional cost of the bike so when you add up wheels+disks+hubs+rear derailuer+front deriluer+crank+cassette etc is adds up. And i'm not sure if you can buy a frame set of the dawg or not

Ok, I thought that might be the case. So this means ill just have to wait a little longer to get the bike. Im going to try to get a job in a bike shop. Im curious, for those of you who work in a shop, how big of discounts do you get. I know they will vary from place to place.

Originally posted by Pharcyde
Ok, I thought that might be the case. So this means ill just have to wait a little longer to get the bike. Im going to try to get a job in a bike shop. Im curious, for those of you who work in a shop, how big of discounts do you get. I know they will vary from place to place.

Varies. I know guys who most parts free and frames REALLY cheap (sponsorship level prices) while the place up the street give 15% off everything.

If you aren't interested in money trade service for bike. This works often

good luck getting a job in that shop. Getting a job at any LBS is harder than you'd think, trust me i've tried

WEll i anticipate it being hard, but Im going to take some bike mechanics courses to become profficient in that arena. I think that will help a bit.

BTW how much do you think I could get for my 02 rockhopper a1 comp?

My first job was as a shop rat. Right place, right time. Plus, having a working knowledge of a coaster brake was critical. Pay sucks, but the discounts kinda offset the low pay. I now work part-time (no-time lately), and the owner sell me things at 10% over cost (enough to offset shipping charges). Plus, a lot of companies offer "Pro-Deals" or "Employee Purchase" deals that are usually less than cost. Only thing there is you have to pay in advance rather than putting it "on Credit".

My current part-time gig began when I was hanging out at the LBS, they got slammed, and I started changing tires to help the mechanic catch up. After doing this whenever I was in the shop, I asked for a job, not for pay, but just for credit at the shop. Worked out for me, but then again, I have a full time job that pays the bills and then some.

L8R