Brompton? Dahon?

[Eggplant Jeff]

So I'm planning on getting a job down town, which means the best bet is ride to work, fold up the bike, and carry it to my office. Or worry about thieves. So I'm looking at folders.

Brompton seems like pretty much the smallest folded package out there. And they claim 15-second fold times (of course, so do many of the others). However I don't see a lot of comments in this forum from those who have them?

Is it just the price? Or is there another reason to avoid them?

Next up would appear to be a Dahon. I've seen several posts on here saying complimentary things about their ride quality. However from their web site it doesn't look like they fold as small as the Brompton, plus I didn't see a component setup that I liked (maybe you can customize 'em at the store?). For example, I do NOT want a suspension seatpost... odds are I'll be running a Brooks B67 which is a sprung saddle anyway. But a lot of models came with the suspension seatpost. Whereas I DO want a rack and fenders (although I can skip the lights, I can buy better lights as standalone components than I've ever seen available OEM).

And a totally different question... Anyone use clipless pedals on their folder? I realize this would mean giving up the folding pedals, but my main concern is picking it up not fitting it into a particular suitcase or something. And I really like my current pedals which are SPD one side platform the other.

[pharnabazos]

... odds are I'll be running a Brooks B67 which is a sprung saddle anyway. But a lot of models came with the suspension seatpost.

Beware Dahon models which come with the proprietary I-Beam seatpost, like the Speed series. You won't be able to use standard rail saddles without replacing the seatpost first. It's 34mm.


And a totally different question... Anyone use clipless pedals on their folder?

Yes--it was no problem folding or going into a building, but for suitcases it's more of a hassle. I removed the pedals for travel.

[AWOL]

out of the 33 models listed in the 06 dahon catolog only 5 have suspension seatposts.

i reckon a speed tr with a new seatpost would be perfect, racks, fenders etc. good gear range, great quality and geometry.

trouble with folding pedals is quality. i have the mks ones on my jetstream... so-so.

as for folded size... i wouldnt worry too much. sure bromptons are smaller but not that much so

[wpflem]

For your descirbed need, it's hard to best a Brompton in my opinion. One day my wife rode her bike to school and put it under her desk. When her 1st graders saw it, they exclaimed, "Hey, you brought your wheelchair in today!" Brompton should also hold it's value well for resale.

I will also tell you that Bromptons are real bargains compared to other England made bikes that I've been involved with . Try shipping in a Moulton or a Pashley, the shipping adds tremendously to the sale price. Brompton somehow ships in for peanuts, I don't know how they do it. Dahon ships in by the boatload, so transport does not figure that much in their price.

[Mr_Super_Socks]

Clipless is definitely the way to go. My experience with carrying a folded bike into an office (I have done it with a Speed TR, downtube and my bike friday) is that weight is your absolute #1 priority, followed closely by easy foldability. Bike friday doesn't pass the quick fold test, but the others have been fine. But my Speed TR and downtube are both a bit too heavy to do it comfortably (though it's totally do-able). I don't know what a Brompton weighs, but the compact fold is appealing. If I had to get the bike into the office, up and down stairs, etc. I'd look at the Dahon presto lite or one of their other really lightweight models.

Also - a tote bag is crucial to keeping the process of bringing a crudded up bike into an office somewhat civilized.

[AWOL]

I use a Dahon El Bolso for protection and ease of transport. Worth a look.

[Wavshrdr]

While Bromptons may be small, they aren't super light. Typically they range from about 22-25lbs. You can definitely get Dahons under this as well as a Swift/Xootr. The Brompton's real claim to fame is the very compact fold. However they have smaller wheels than the 20" Dahon, they typically cost more and their gear range tends to be limited. If you travel typically only in a city with few hills then they may be ideal.

Of all my bikes I think the fastest fold is truly the Swift (aka Xootr) although it is not the most compact fold. Basic fold can truly be done in about 5-10 seconds practice. Next would be the Dahons. I have tried the Bromptons quite a bit in the shops and they have lots of twiddly bits you must unscrew to drop the handlebars and fold the frame. The Dahons have a quick release type mechanism that is more like a vise-grip locking pliers.

A Brompton is one of the few folders I don't seem to have at the moment and I don't know if I will add one anytime soon as they aren't exactly a great value (to me). So I end up buying something else when considering adding another folder. Maybe someday I'll buy one but so far the test rides haven't won me over yet. I appreciate their engineering but then again I appreciate a Birdy as well and they seem to ride better and fold compactly (but not Brompton small). You also might want to check out a Birdy while you are at it.

As for clipless pedals, while it you can't really get a clipless folding pedal (at least that I've seen yet), MKS does make a quick release (QR) clipless pedal. The advantage of this is you can use the other MKS QR pedals in the same mounting system and choose which you want to use that day. The cleat would go into a SPD type recessed cleat shoe. So you could easily walk on them in a store without too much difficulty. I have seen these in person and I am torn between buying a set of these or Speedplay Frogs for another bike. I already have several pairs of the normal MKS QR pedals and like them alot but I plan on buying a set to use on my folder and recumbent.

Something that may factor into your decision is your physical size. I am a big guy and I feel the most comfortable on my Bike Friday and Swift, next the Dahon and others. I did feel pretty scrunched on the Brompton but the model with the flat bars was most comfortable of the range. The funky "P" series I think wasn't bad but I don't think I could live with the style of the bars although they might be very versatile. you also didn't specify price range and that obviously has a huge impact on what you want to shop. The cheapest Brompton is over the mid-price range of the Dahons. They all seem to have their niche and it is sometimes difficult to decide what is best. If the ultimate compact fold is your main buying point then the nod would probably have to go to the Brompton.

[juan162]

If you can, try to get a test ride on the bikes you are considering. Views and preferences can change when you are upclose and personal. As far as pedals go, I can only agree with everyone else, in that you can use just about any pedal you would favor. Again, if smallest fold is most important, you might want the MKS detachables. Just know that while they are similar to SPD's, they are MKS's own design(which is no problem since they come with the cleats. Replacement cleats might be an issue though). You can find out more about them if you look for the MKS Clipless thread on this forum.
juan162

[Eggplant Jeff]

Thanks for the input so far. I'm hoping to get to a bike store this weekend that has a bunch of folders, bromptons and dahons and others, so I can try 'em out.

Regarding Dahon's "33" bikes... 16 are listed as "Commuter" or "City" (many are listed in both categories actually). Of those, 10 do not come with a rack or fenders, of the remaining 6, 1 is electric , 2 have the wierd custom seat rail thing, and one has a suspension seat post. This is based on their 2005 lineup, I saw a 2006 catalog and it looked like a lot more bikes had suspension seatposts, but I can't find the PDF I downloaded right now so I can't confirm that.

The two that are left are the Piccolo D3 and the Mariner D7. The piccolo D3 doesn't seem to have a whole lot to distinguish itself from the bromptons, it's a 3-speed hub, 16" wheels, and weighs 25.5 lbs. The Mariner D7 has the 20" wheels but is a much larger package folded and still weighs 26 lbs.

It seems like the main difference in weight is things like no rack and/or no fenders, that wacky I-beam seatpost, stuff like that.

[balto charlie]

Thanks for the input so far. I'm hoping to get to a bike store this weekend that has a bunch of folders, bromptons and dahons and others, so I can try 'em out.

Regarding Dahon's "33" bikes... 16 are listed as "Commuter" or "City" (many are listed in both categories actually). Of those, 10 do not come with a rack or fenders, of the remaining 6, 1 is electric , 2 have the wierd custom seat rail thing, and one has a suspension seat post. This is based on their 2005 lineup, I saw a 2006 catalog and it looked like a lot more bikes had suspension seatposts, but I can't find the PDF I downloaded right now so I can't confirm that.

The two that are left are the Piccolo D3 and the Mariner D7. The piccolo D3 doesn't seem to have a whole lot to distinguish itself from the bromptons, it's a 3-speed hub, 16" wheels, and weighs 25.5 lbs. The Mariner D7 has the 20" wheels but is a much larger package folded and still weighs 26 lbs.

It seems like the main difference in weight is things like no rack and/or no fenders, that wacky I-beam seatpost, stuff like that.


Hey Egg I'm in the same boat as you. Folding size is important as I ride the MARC but also need a lot of gears for my hills near home. I think I ruled out the Brompton due to gearing and small tires; however they fold the best which is important when riding mass trans. If you don't ride mass trans then size is not as crucial. If you live in a flat area then gearing is not as important. Unfortunately I have both needs. I'm leaning towards a Dahon with 8 speed internal gearing. I have to wait until I find out about the future of my train station. When this is resolved I will purchase something. College Park bikes and Mt Airy(same group, diff locaton) rent some folders for $30ish. Might be a nice thing to try. See if it's for you. Charlie

[Wavshrdr]

The cool thing about the Dahons is they are easy to customize. So even if they don't come with rack and fenders they are easy and cheap to add. I even have 2 of the multi-geared Boardwalks (Dahons) and even for a base bike they aren't bad. They are pretty light weight even with fenders and racks.

BTW- the Dahon that has the suspension seatpost is a great bike. The suspension seatpost (Thudbuster) is absolutely awesome and is very tunable for rider weight and style. I have actually ended up buying several of these for my other bikes after putting one on one of my Dahons. It truly transformed my ride. If you try one after taking the time to dial it in you will see exactly what I mean. I run one with my Brooks as well but it isn't sprung. Keep in mind that you can adjust it to work well even with a sprung saddle. The Brooks is good for the little hits but you could setup the Thudbuster to take care of the big pot hole but not move until then. If you decided to buy a Dahon with the Thudbuster and later don't want it, drop me a line and I'll be glad to buy it from you. I can understand not wanting a suspended seatpost since you have the Brooks but trust me after using the Thudbuster you will see it is in a totally different class.

Here is a link to a pic of my Brooks mounted with a Thudbuster on my Swift.

Pic of my Swift with Brooks saddle with Thudbuster and rack. (http://public.wavshrdr.airpost.net/Photos/TSwift_rack1.jpg)

[awagner]

I skimmed through about fifty US patents on folding mechanisms, and ended up settling on Dahon's bikes as having the best designed folding mechanisms. I spent an entire day test riding and folding the Bromptons, Dahons, and the Birdy. I settled on a Dahon Speed P8 and I've been commuting on it for a few months now.

For the price difference between a Dahon and a Brompton/Birdy, you could replace most of the parts on the Dahon with parts of your choice, and end up with a better bike than a stock Brompton/Birdy.

The thing that took the Bromptons out of consideration for me was how many of their parts are both proprietary and made out of molded plastic, even on their most expensive model. Proprietary bits are OK, but only if they are necessary and if they are very will implemented. The proprietary bits on most Dahons are IMHO all very well implemented, and in any case are supposedly warranted for life. Some of the components they get most criticized for are new standards from other companies that are marginal improvements and in most peoples' eyes are not worth breaking with tradition. (I-beam and the 1:1 cable pull of the SRAM shifting mechanisms)

The birdy seems to me like it was designed by non-engineers, or at least engineers who haven't spent their childhoods analyzing minutae of bicycle design. In addition to smaller design infractions, I seem to remember the seat stays being open at the top, closed at the bottom so that they would fill up with rainwater. I was also advised by a salesperson that the asymmetry of the folding mechanism when loaded results in rapid and asymmetric rear tire wear.

In my opinion (as a biased user) a customized mid-range Dahon is probably the best quick-folding bike that money can buy right now.

[Mr_Super_Socks]

The cool thing about the Dahons is they are easy to customize. So even if they don't come with rack and fenders they are easy and cheap to add. .[/URL]
+1
I wouldn't get hung up on the fender issue. Just find the bike you like and if it doesn't come with fenders, buy some 20" fenders from Gaerlan or elsewhere. good luck.

[Fear&Trembling]

Hi Eggplant Jeff,

Bromptons can be heavily modified. Handlebars, Disc brakes, hub brakes, Rohloff hub, different rear sprockets, racks, use a Birdy rear elastomer etc. However, you are stuck with ERTO 349 wheels which do not roll as well as ERTO 406...

As for folding, the Brommie is intuitive and can be done with surprising celerity.

Hi awagner,

Markus Riese and Heiko Mueller studied mechanical engineering at the Technical University, Darmstadt and were greatly influenced by the designs Dr Alex Moulton.

I cannot say I have noticed higher than normal tyre wear on my Birdy when compared to other small-wheelers that I have owned, but as tyres are relatively inexpensive it is not something that overly concerns me.

The Birdy seat stays have drainage holes to channel any accumulated water away.

[wpflem]

The proprietary bits on most Dahons are IMHO all very well implemented, and in any case are supposedly warranted for life.

Only the frame and folding mechanisms on Dahon are warrantied for life...if the bike is tuned and inspected by a mechanic after purchase.

[v1nce]

Hey Jef

Member Chris runs his KHS folder with Folding pedals that accept PowerGrips. A much cheaper option than all the ones mentioned above and worth a look i think.

How long untill you need the folder..? I ask because i am personally holding out for the New Downtube Mini that hopefully should be out in 6 to 12 months. It will be somewhat like the Brompton but i am getting the impression it will boots it's butt in many ways/be better. To wit: Cheaper, Better drivetrain (Capreo), Carrybag included?, Lighter/Alu etc.

[folder fanatic]

I think I might be able to help you on both the Dahon and the Brompton. I own both makes. The Dahon is a 2 year old 2003 Boardwalk S1. The Brompton is a 1 1/2 month old C-type or CE3. The Dahon-even though it came with fenders and a rear rack-has been extensively upgraded resulting in doubling it's original price when I purchased it. The Brompton pretty much started out the way I like my bikes (internal hub drive train, handlebar mounted shifter, simple styled suspension). The only modifications that I will do is to change the shifter to a metal traditional Sturmey-Archer one within the month and in the future add a sprung Brooks saddle. I find that I don't need a rack and fenders at this time. For more information on my experiences of both these bikes, just do a search on my user name-Folder Fanatic-and get a complete rundown on these bikes as well as do a search on www.dahon.com using the same user name.

I am not sure why people here in the US avoid the Brompton. My guess is that Americans are such gearheads and go for bikes that offer the most gears rather than one that reflects reality. In my case, both bikes handle the wide variety of hills around my house very well and having an exposed derailleur is not the smartest thing to have since debris, moisture, and getting caught on bushes etc. types of damage appear to go hand in hand with a small wheeled derailleur equipped bike. The internal hub gear is not effected by these maintenance headaches and can go longer without needing much fuss.


As for your post, Eggplant Jeff, let me encourage you into a purchase of either bike. I find both are great rides and I would recommend both to you-although with the Brompton I would go Ala Carte and select the components and accessories-i.e. the rear rack and the fenders without the fancy front hub powered hubs they offer on their higher end models. The Dahon I recommend is the basic, yet an excellent introduction into folders is the Boardwalk S1-but only if you have a really good bike shop lined up to do the modifications you want done on it. Avoid the aluminum framed models like the Vitesse since you will not be able to modify anything on it. Or the vertical rear dropouts on most other models since you need a chain tensioner when you go single speed, fixed, or internal hub gears. The Brompton is the best one when you use public transit since it folds so compact (you have to see it to believe it)! The S1 is compact but somewhat bigger and will be noticed (and probably stopped) when you lug it onto some buses, planes, and other limitly spaced areas.

I don't use clipless pedals as I prefer folding pedals for compactness in tight spaces. But I am sure others will help you in that area. Please feel free to post more questions and comments. And when you do find the bike you are comfortable with, what you selected.

[juan162]

Hey Jef

How long untill you need the folder..? I ask because i am personally holding out for the New Downtube Mini that hopefully should be out in 6 to 12 months. It will be somewhat like the Brompton but i am getting the impression it will boots it's butt in many ways/be better. To wit: Cheaper, Better drivetrain (Capreo), Carrybag included?, Lighter/Alu etc.

v1nce,
just to clarify, am I correct in assuming that downtube will soon be carrying a 16" wheel folder?
juan162

[awagner]

I am not sure why people here in the US avoid the Brompton. My guess is that Americans are such gearheads and go for bikes that offer the most gears rather than one that reflects reality.

As for your post, Eggplant Jeff, let me encourage you into a purchase of either bike.
...

The Brompton is the best one when you use public transit since it folds so compact (you have to see it to believe it)! The S1 is compact but somewhat bigger and will be noticed (and probably stopped) when you lug it onto some buses, planes, and other limitly spaced areas.



I agree with folder fanatic that you should buy either bike. Do make sure you test ride them, fold them, lift them up to shoulder height a few times, and talk to a mechanic before buying to know what you are getting into. The 20" Dahons, the Bromptons, and the Birdies all have dramatically different qualities in terms of ease of folding, ease of hefting, ease of maintenance, and ride quality, and all of these are subjective.

For example, I saw the Brompton next to a Dahon, lifted them both in the air, and couldn't understand why everyone talks about the Brompton being significantly smaller. It felt smaller to me while I was riding it, but not while I was picking it up folded. The Brompton was a titanium show model, compared to a steel Dahon. Could be be a matter of visual perception, it could be how I was picking up the bikes... dunno. The frame on the Brompton sure was sexy, and if I were loaded, I might be tempted to get one just for that reason, but from a pure utilitarian standpoint I couldn't see any advantage of the Brompton I test rode over the Dahons I test rode. You may look at the same bikes and get the exact opposite impression, and that why I strongly recommend buying one in person, even if you have to travel to do so.

[Eggplant Jeff]

Well in fact I will be travelling this weekend and I'm going to stop at a shop that has them and try 'em out. I doubt I'll be purchasing quite yet but you never know, my wife might just say go for it... I hope! :D Actually I think this purchase will not be until we get our tax refund... But it'll be good to be able to try them out.

[v1nce]

@ Juan, yes indeed that is the plan last i heard, chk out the DT threads, not too much info but some, i don't want to get on Yan's case, he is busy enough as it is.

[igor455]

I got a picallo 3 just to see what it was like, I keep it in the trunk of my car along with my bike friday NWT. The three speed really gives me a workout on the Balt annap bike trail ( i live right off it behind marley station mall ) what with only 3 speeds . I spent 9 years as a bike cop and rode full size fujis and treks and i like the folders. what can you take on hte marc trains. the shop in mt airy is the same a college park cycles and they had folders there you could try if you can send me a private message with your e mail you can try mine igor

[Fear&Trembling]

For example, I saw the Brompton next to a Dahon, lifted them both in the air, and couldn't understand why everyone talks about the Brompton being significantly smaller. It felt smaller to me while I was riding it, but not while I was picking it up folded.

The average folded dimensions of a Brompton are: 565mm x 545mm x 250mm (22.2" x 21.5" x 9.8” ). This is considerably smaller than 20" wheeled Dahons. If it does not look like much to the naked eye, I can assure you it is important on a multi-modal commute where space on a crowded train, metro or bus can be at a premium. Many times have I cursed my Birdy when trying to squeeze it into a confined space that I know a Brompton will snugly fit...

[BruceMetras]

Avoid the aluminum framed models like the Vitesse since you will not be able to modify anything on it. Or the vertical rear dropouts on most other models since you need a chain tensioner when you go single speed, fixed, or internal hub gears.

Actually, you can fit a hub gear nicely to a Dahon with vertical drops without the use of a chaintensioner with a little bit of gear juggling, as I've done on my aluminum framed Jetstream XP.. it's not a slam dunk as with horizontal drops, but still doable without frame modifcations or custom bits.

Bruce

[Eggplant Jeff]

Well I went to the absolutely terrific Trophy Bikes in Philadelphia this weekend. Great guy Mike there, knowledgable, helpful, makes me wish my LBSes were half that good.

Surprisingly, the two I liked the most were the Brompton (ok that one's not a surprise :D) and the Xootr Swift.

From the pictures I didn't think the Swift folded very small, and it sort of doesn't. All it does is fold in half, basically. However that means it's still very thin (especially if you remove the handlebars; reinstallation was a lot easier than I had anticipated). However, the thing that amazed me was that the fold time is like ONE second. Release two quick releases, slide seat up, fold, slide seat down, tighten one quick release. Done. And if you're talking about having it on the subway or something, thin is good.

The Swift is also... swift. It was significantly faster than the Brompton. However it was a LOT stiffer... which is good and bad. Good because less flex means less wasted effort. Bad because I really felt every defect in the sidewalk/street.

However, I think the swift would make a better weekend bike that can be easily carried without a bike rack rather than a commuter. Because of the small wheels, I can't really make use of a rack on a folder. When riding one of the Bromptons I got hot and strapped my jacket to the rack. My huge feet were kicking it every time they went by. And my jacket is a lot smaller rolled up than my current trunk bag. Probably wouldn't be as much of an issue on a 20-inch wheel bike, but still there is no way I could run panniers.

However the Brompton solves all that with their awesome luggage system. The front-mounted bag that clips on and off? And you can clip it to the bike when you fold everything but the handlebars? So you can wheel it behind you like a suitcase? That's insane. Someone spent a LOT of time thinking about stuff.

The Brompton is clearly the one most designed with a business commuter in mind. It had all sorts of little features that were just neat and worked well.

The Dahons I was a little disappointed with. He had a Helios and a Presto Lite in stock. He really thought the Vitesse would be a better one for me and was disappointed he couldn't show me one, when lo and behold a customer brings one in for service. Obviously I couldn't test-ride it, but we could fold it up and stuff.

I definitely noticed the difference in size between the Dahons and the Brompton. I mean, if you just glance at 'em, yeah they both fold small. But set them next to each other and the Dahon is noticably longer. Also, the Dahon doesn't fold nearly as solidly as the Brompton... That magnetic latch thingy isn't really all that solid. In fact the customer's bike wouldn't even fold to where the magnets would touch (something kept it like 1/2 an inch too far apart). Yeah I know a small bungee and you're done. But it was just one more little thing where the Brompton was nicer.

Admittedly the Dahons were the least expensive by a noticable margin and I wouldn't really expect 'em to compare to something double or triple the price. They definitely seemed great for if you want a bike you can pack easily in a car. But I'm looking for something I can carry around on a commute or into stores or offices or whatever... and the Brompton just looks a little better for that kinda thing. And, I am lucky enough to be in a position where the price is not a huge factor. If I had a $500 limit I'd buy a Dahon in a heartbeat.

One thing I didn't like as much as I thought I would on the Brompton was the P-bars. The handlebars that go out, up, and back in. I thought the multiple hand positions would be cool, but really they weren't. I only used the top position anyway, the lower ones weren't comfortable. However, the riding position must be more upright than on my current bike (hybrid with flat handlebars) because I could really feel that my arms weren't carrying as much weight as normal. So hand positions probably won't be as much of an issue because my hands shouldn't get as tired. Which is good because it means I can buy the less expensive M bars :).

I yammered about the bikes at my wife a bunch on the trip home and after a while she said "OK you should get the Brompton. You've said a lot more 'pros' about it than the others and a lot fewer 'cons'." So I think that's what I'll be getting :D. Now I just need that tax rebate...

[Wavshrdr]

You can ride with panniers on a Swift. I have my Swift setup to easily do it. I just bought 2 Bromptons and I can tell you if I only had 1 bike it wouldn't be a Brompton! That big Brompton bag up front is a great air dam to slow you down. I have the 22 liter cloth pannier and it slows me down MUCH more than two panniers behind me on the Swift. If you want the Swift to ride great see my bike here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=172250

If you want to see with rack and bag go here (but this is before I changed tires):

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2102291&postcount=227

This has my rear rack on there with the bab that has fold down panniers as well. I have size 13 feet and if my feet don't hit the bags, only Shaq's will! The rack is quite useful and I often have grocery bag panniers on it or other types of bags or panniers on it. The Swift as I've built it is FAR faster, smoother, useful and more comfortable (ride quality and ergo's) than the Brompton. The only place where the Brompton trumps the Swift is in folded size.

I love how narrow the Swift is when folded in that it is easy to go through gates and turnstyles. It is taller but faster and less fiddling. I have also carried a ton of groceries on my Swift and my large frame with absolutely no issues. The brakes on the Bromptons suck compared to most. What model were you looking at? FYI- here is a review I just wrote about my Brompton purchase of 2 days ago (my detailed review after purchase is post #18):

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=173030

I would definitely spend more time riding bikes unless you have already made up your mind. I have no skin in the game so to speak and I have both the Brompton and Swift (and a few others) so I am pretty objective and not worshipping at the altar of any manufacturer. The Swift is the one bike that can really do it all with very little tweaking. The Brompton is more of a "one-trick-pony" but if you need that 1 trick nobody does it better...yet.

[edzo]

teh real deal with a brompton comes down to this (methinks)

Price ....Brommies cost some bucks
Weight...they aren't the lightest but who cares ? work it !
Brakes suck....not really. they lock up either end. grab them hard,
or install new brakes. done.

Tune your Brompton and it'll take care of you.
-----------------------------------------
after that, why NOT get a Brompton ????

It is the best...foldability, portability, ride quality...

there is no reason not to, only reasons /to get one....

Parts....Brommies share a lot of common parts with all english bikes,
EZ to service when in some weird land

Performance....You can ride Bromptons pretty hard, through busted up
Amsterdam sidewalk repairs, dirt trails, planks, cobbles, smooth street,
and if you are frisky and have 100psi in the baloney skins it'll freakin FLY.

Shopping...the Brompton wins hands down. You can use the front bag/frame, ride your
Brompton to the store, fold it up (the bag stays upright) go shopping pulling the
Brompton behind you (whilst folded) as a shopping cart, load up the bag, pay for your stuff,
wheel it out and unfold the bike (the bag stays upright during folding procedures, goods do not fall out) and away you go. brilliant.

The Brompton truly is the 100k commuter bike, the coffee bike, the beer-run bike, the groceries bike, easy to service bike. REAL bike that rides solid and strong. the only flimsy feeling bits are the handlebars. You flex them when honking hard, but they will not bend or break (unless of course they are actually damaged in some way.)



I use my Brompton to go out on MTB trails for blowdown maintenance. I carry saws, hatchets,
pry-bars and an axe on me brommie out on the trail. she loves it. :D

[Simple Simon]

Sorry, but I just dont get the swift - it hardly folds at all !!
Why not have a full sized bike and a real folder ? ....

Totally biased opinion from a MTBiker and brompton owner :-)

[Wavshrdr]

SS- If you ride the Swift you would better understand it. It is as fast and efficient as a Bike Friday. You can easily customize it almost anyway you want with standard component (unlike Brompton and many Dahon models). It folds up smaller than you think but it is a taller and narrower and package then a Dahon but not as compact as a Brompton.

The Swift is very narrow when folded and it is quite easy to take through a turnstyle or gate that is narrow. The Brompton's claim to fame is it is a compact folder. The Swift is a great bike that just happens to fold. So the way to look at is do you want a great folder or a great bike that happens to fold...

[Simple Simon]

OK ... looks like (another) one for the wish list :-) I'd love a direct comparison with say a Dahon Jack, (also on wish list) which seems to fold to a similar size, and has 26" wheels.

[Eggplant Jeff]

Wavshrdr, there is no way that swift folds much with that rack on there. Raise the seat, fold the wheel under, drop the seat... the rack's still gonna stick out a bunch. Plus the seatpost you have doesn't look like it has room to drop down significantly either. What you've got there is a very nice general purpose small bike that happens to fold somewhat.

I am looking for a great folder. I agree the swift is a nice bike but I just don't think it's what I'm looking for in terms of foldability. I could totally see having it as a second bike (I liked it more than my current full-size bike), but I'm looking first and foremost for a small folder to ride to work.

I'm not looking for a bike I can customize. I probably wouldn't change anything on a brompton other than the seat (oh and lights). It already has all the stuff I'd want to add to a different bike (fenders, way to carry stuff, etc). I'm also not looking for a bike that can go off-road or take massive abuse or anything. I'm gonna ride it to work. It's gonna see potholes and stuff but that's about it. I'm not looking for a bike that is easy to service. I'm used to working on cars. Compared to cars, servicing anything on ANY bike is like a paint-by-numbers book after doing the sistene chapel. Plus getting service done on a bike is so cheap (again compared to cars) that I'll probably just drop it off if it needs anything significant done anyway.

[Tomaso]

Hi Jeff,

It's not a Dahon, nor a Brompton, but maybe a MEZZO-bike might be worth checking?......

It seems to fold easy, and looks like a compact package when folded

www.mezzobikes.com


Just an idea ;)

[Eggplant Jeff]

Interesting looking bike. Unfortunately their "Find a dealer" page lists only counties in England (I'm in the US). I'd want to ride it before trying to order one. It looks like it'd have the same problem as the brompton when it comes to the rack... my feet would hit anything on the rack.

Wavshrdr gets around that problem by using a seatpost clamp rack, which is a lot higher. Most of the racks that come on folders are so low and close to the pedals that they'd be a problem for me.

[Dahon.Steve]

I am looking for a great folder. I agree the swift is a nice bike but I just don't think it's what I'm looking for in terms of foldability. I could totally see having it as a second bike (I liked it more than my current full-size bike), but I'm looking first and foremost for a small folder to ride to work.

I'm not looking for a bike I can customize. I probably wouldn't change anything on a brompton other than the seat (oh and lights). It already has all the stuff I'd want to add to a different bike (fenders, way to carry stuff, etc). I'm also not looking for a bike that can go off-road or take massive abuse or anything. I'm gonna ride it to work. It's gonna see potholes and stuff but that's about it. I'm not looking for a bike that is easy to service. I'm used to working on cars. Compared to cars, servicing anything on ANY bike is like a paint-by-numbers book after doing the sistene chapel. Plus getting service done on a bike is so cheap (again compared to cars) that I'll probably just drop it off if it needs anything significant done anyway.

Here's my opinion.

If you have to board the bus, then get a 16' inch wheel folder. A larger package may not be allowed inside the cabin but I've heard Bike Fridays owners do all the time so this may be more imaginary than anything else. Still. It's always better to board the inside the cabin of a bus with the smallest package possible.

Otherwise, you're better off getting a folding bike that has 20' inch wheels. You're going to want to do some weekend riding and a 20' inch folder without a hub gear is more efficient and faster than any 16' inch wheel 3 speed bicycle. I've never heard of a Bike Friday or Dahon owner that was kicked off a train because the package was too big so this fear is unwarranted. Comfort and performance mean everything and you really can feel the difference between between a 16 and 20 inch wheel bicycle. People keep saying the larger folding size will makes it inferror or that the smallest possible package is an advantage. Can you tell me where this 15-20% increase in size will makes it inferrior? I've been able to board buses and trains with a 20 inch wheel bicycle and never had a problem. Is there any Bike Friday owner on this forum who was kicked off a train on this forum because I would like to know. You won't find them because they don't exist! Seriously. The smallest possible package is not an advantage but a compromise.

From personal experience, I've been able to get my 20' inch wheel Dahon Speed 7 on buses and trains. The size was not more important but weight was. The weight of the folder can be a real probem and the lighter the better. The Brompton weights as much as the Dahon Piccolo and that's about 25-27 lbs! That's heavy.

My advice is to get a 20 inch wheel folder unless you intend to board the bus every day with your folder.

[Eggplant Jeff]

I have a full-size bike, so weekend rides are no big deal. The folder is just for work (well, unless I decide I like it more of course). And boarding the bus/train every day is a possibility, it will depend on where I work and where I live (neither of which is set in stone yet).

The brompton was perfectly comfortable to ride, small wheels or not. That rubber grommet, while very primitive, is still a very effective suspension. In fact it was a lot more comfortable than the swift with the larger wheels. I'll probably be running a sprung brooks saddle anyway so my butt is going to be perfectly happy no matter what I get ;).

And regarding the weight, my current commuter bike weighs close to 50 lbs loaded. Any folder is going to be a huge drop from that no matter what. And as far as carrying the weight, the brompton is the only one that allows you to wheel it behind you like a piece of luggage. I can REALLY see that being a handy feature.

[juan162]

Eggplant Jeff,
I think you have done your homework and have figured out the best folder for you at this time. Don't be surprised, though if in a little while you start to wonder what it would be like to have one of the other folders just for a change of pace. BEWARE, FOLDERS ARE VERY ADDICTIVE!!!;) I just wanted to warn you in advance that you'll probably end up with more than one...I'm cheap, but already have 2 and am thinking of at least 2 more purchases. Good luck, and let us know what you think after you've bought it and road it for a few,
juan162

[Wavshrdr]

Wavshrdr, there is no way that swift folds much with that rack on there. Raise the seat, fold the wheel under, drop the seat... the rack's still gonna stick out a bunch. Plus the seatpost you have doesn't look like it has room to drop down significantly either. What you've got there is a very nice general purpose small bike that happens to fold somewhat.

I am looking for a great folder. I agree the swift is a nice bike but I just don't think it's what I'm looking for in terms of foldability. I could totally see having it as a second bike (I liked it more than my current full-size bike), but I'm looking first and foremost for a small folder to ride to work.

I'm not looking for a bike I can customize. I probably wouldn't change anything on a brompton other than the seat (oh and lights). It already has all the stuff I'd want to add to a different bike (fenders, way to carry stuff, etc). I'm also not looking for a bike that can go off-road or take massive abuse or anything. I'm gonna ride it to work. It's gonna see potholes and stuff but that's about it. I'm not looking for a bike that is easy to service. I'm used to working on cars. Compared to cars, servicing anything on ANY bike is like a paint-by-numbers book after doing the sistene chapel. Plus getting service done on a bike is so cheap (again compared to cars) that I'll probably just drop it off if it needs anything significant done anyway.

No issues with folding my Swift with the rack. I just rotate it forward over the bars. Also it is easily removed and functional unlike the lame rack on the Bromptons. Also the if you go with the normal seat post you can get it lower but my Thudbuster doesn't affect the fold very adversely. I have other pictures of it without the Thudbuster and rack too.

As for ride comfort, I don't know what tires were on the Swift you rode. I can tell you that with the Big Apples on my Swift it rides better than the softest riding tires on my Brompton even with the suspension. Also keep in mind that if you pick up the Brompton that if always wants to fold under which sometimes is a PITA! Also the brakes are pretty much worthless on a Brompton and I have already spent over $100 trying to make them better and now I can say they are almost mediocre. It is chronic problem with the breed so to speak.

If you need the ultimate small fold then the Brompton may be the best choice. If you don't then almost every folder is better. The Brompton is miserable to change the rear tire on. I suggest you do a search on that as well. I just had my first flat and it was on the rear (of course). Changing the rear tire on the side of the road is such an issue that they many riders suggest putting a tube on the rear fram in the correct position from the comfort of you own home. Then you won't have to try and pull the wheel if you get a flat. After my experience I would highly suggest you do this as well.

So far my Brompton experience is they are cool to look at, test ride but not so fun to own. All their warts become glaringly obvious after living with one for a few days. OTOH the chassis isn't bad and it is small. You define your priorities and if small is most important then buy a Brommie but do a lot of research so you really know what to expect. On the Brompton forums you will see hundreds of posts about brake upgrades. If you don't have hills or ride fast it might not be much of an issue. If you like to tinker then they are a great platform because the need a lot of tinkering. Just look how they expose the cables on the brakes? Cables exit vertically so water runs right down the sheath. The levers are crap and should be thrown away (and I did). I ran all new lines, better housing, new levers and better pads to get it so I could actually make the bike stop and then no where near as good as my Swift, BF, Downtube or Dahon.

I love it and hate the Brommie at the same time. I need it but really don't want to ride it at the same time.

[igor455]

What would a brompton 6 spd cost in us dollars? I have a 3 spd dahon adn a 27 speed bike friday. I dont commute with a bike but I do have one with me all the time. It is maazing what i can fit into the trunk of my sheriffs crown vic.I need to ride because i am a diabetic adn i like riding Igor the used to be bike cop deputy sheriff

[Wavshrdr]

I think the 6 speed Bromptons start at about the $850 range and go up quickly from there. Basically you get fenders and the 6 speed and a better front brake than the C model and possibly better tires. You don't get that much more gear range with the 6spd vs. the 3spd either. I was sort of surprised. To get a really fun Brompton would cost about $2,000 from what I've seen.

[juan162]

I think the 6 speed Bromptons start at about the $850 range and go up quickly from there. Basically you get fenders and the 6 speed and a better front brake than the C model and possibly better tires. You don't get that much more gear range with the 6spd vs. the 3spd either. I was sort of surprised. To get a really fun Brompton would cost about $2,000 from what I've seen.
For my needs and wants, the Bromptons are out of my league price wise. I want a 16" wheel folder, but will wait for the downtube. At downtube prices, I won't feel bad upgrading anything I don't like,
juan162

[Eggplant Jeff]

As far as the brakes go, I rode two Bromptons, one brand new (it had the P-handlebars which I wanted to try) and one a couple years old that was the shop's "test ride" bike. The old one definitely had mediocre brakes but the brakes on the new one were fine. Perhaps they are improved in the current year's models?

The 6-speed is a 3-speed hub with a 2-speed derailler. The two gears (at least by default) are 13 and 15 tooth. Basically it gives you a gear in between each of the 3-speed's gears, plus one gear that's higher (or lower depending on the cog and chainring sizes you choose for the 6-speed vs the 3 speed). So instead of:
1, 2, 3
you have:
1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5

The six speed doesn't add much total range, it gives you more gradual increments. Shifting is very wierd too since to go from "1" to "1.5" you'd shift up on the left shifter, then to go from "1.5" to "2" you'd shift DOWN on the left shifter and UP on the right (if you just shifted up on the right you'd go from "1.5" to "2.5"). Also the derailler can only be shifted when pedalling (just like normal) but the hub gear shifts best with no load. So depending which one you're shifting you either pause for a moment while flipping the shifter or don't.

The guy at the shop said it isn't too hard to get used to but it is definitely not what you're accustomed to. However after I test-rode them I decided I'd just stick with the 3-speed and deal with the larger spread between gears.

At the shop I went to, $2089 would buy you THE top of the line brompton. Most expensive handlebars, 6 speed, every titanium bit they offer, hub generator + lights, etc. For the options I want I'm looking at about half that. If you're just going to buy an "a la carte" brompton (pick your options and get it built) I think the 6-speed adds $100-200 over the 3 speed.

[Dahon.Steve]

The brompton was perfectly comfortable to ride, small wheels or not. That rubber grommet, while very primitive, is still a very effective suspension. In fact it was a lot more comfortable than the swift with the larger wheels. I'll probably be running a sprung brooks saddle anyway so my butt is going to be perfectly happy no matter what I get ;).

And regarding the weight, my current commuter bike weighs close to 50 lbs loaded. Any folder is going to be a huge drop from that no matter what. And as far as carrying the weight, the brompton is the only one that allows you to wheel it behind you like a piece of luggage. I can REALLY see that being a handy feature.

Neither of my Dahon folding bikes were comfortable (Piccolo, Speed 7). However, this was fixed when I installed a suspension seat post on my Piccolo and a Brooks Champion Flyer on my Speed 7. I rode the Swift and agree it needs a Brooks Champion flyer.

The Brompton has rolling wheels but here's my take on it. There was a guy using the rollers and was constantly going down and bending over to push the bike. Yes, it did look funny and did draw attention. To date, I've seen very few people use this feature because it looks strange having to practically get down on the floor to push it every few feet! You think it's a handy feature but the "stares" might be a little too much.

I've been able to do the same thing with my Piccolo or Speed 7 by keeping the seat post up, folding the bike in two and rolling it on the front wheel. It looks strange but is effective in rolling the bike across a train platform.

[Dahon.Steve]

At the shop I went to, $2089 would buy you THE top of the line brompton. Most expensive handlebars, 6 speed, every titanium bit they offer, hub generator + lights, etc. For the options I want I'm looking at about half that. If you're just going to buy an "a la carte" brompton (pick your options and get it built) I think the 6-speed adds $100-200 over the 3 speed.

It's incredible how much Brompton wants for their bikes. Spending $2,089.00 for a utility bike is waaaay too much. The US dollar has dropped so much that you're really paying a lot for the poor exchange rate and not quality. Have you checked out what you can get on BikeFirday.com for that kind of money? Night and day.

[folder fanatic]

I agree with you up to a point, Dahon Steve. I would not spend 2000 dollars for any bike-even a performance one. I find that once you go beyond a middle priced model for any make-be it Dahon, Brompton or Bike Friday-you are paying for ego enhancement, not for any real gains in performance. My guess is the person in question, Eggplant Jeff, has been conditioned to pay more because he has not been educated in bike usage like his more astute European and Asian counterparts. The people who use bikes the most tend to have simple machines that are dependable, not too flashy, and does it's job well. Americans are conditioned to have the best-even though it may not be on closer examination.

I myself have both the Dahon and the Brompton entry level bikes. Each does it's job, yet the Brompton has definate quality gains over the Dahon (which in itself is a perfectly satisfactory bike to use). I prefer the Brompton over the Dahon any time even if means paying a lot more for the difference in money value across the borders. Dahon has it but it is more hidden. And another thing to consider is it's foldability factor. Bike Friday is big on performance, but folding is secondary since it is not very good for nonsuitcase transit options. Dahon and others are bulky compared to Brompton and Strida.

[balto charlie]

As far as the brakes go, I rode two Bromptons, one brand new (it had the P-handlebars which I wanted to try) and one a couple years old that was the shop's "test ride" bike. The old one definitely had mediocre brakes but the brakes on the new one were fine. Perhaps they are improved in the current year's models?

The 6-speed is a 3-speed hub with a 2-speed derailler. The two gears (at least by default) are 13 and 15 tooth. Basically it gives you a gear in between each of the 3-speed's gears, plus one gear that's higher (or lower depending on the cog and chainring sizes you choose for the 6-speed vs the 3 speed). So instead of:
1, 2, 3
you have:
1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5

The six speed doesn't add much total range, it gives you more gradual increments. Shifting is very wierd too since to go from "1" to "1.5" you'd shift up on the left shifter, then to go from "1.5" to "2" you'd shift DOWN on the left shifter and UP on the right (if you just shifted up on the right you'd go from "1.5" to "2.5"). Also the derailler can only be shifted when pedalling (just like normal) but the hub gear shifts best with no load. So depending which one you're shifting you either pause for a moment while flipping the shifter or don't.

The guy at the shop said it isn't too hard to get used to but it is definitely not what you're accustomed to. However after I test-rode them I decided I'd just stick with the 3-speed and deal with the larger spread between gears.

At the shop I went to, $2089 would buy you THE top of the line brompton. Most expensive handlebars, 6 speed, every titanium bit they offer, hub generator + lights, etc. For the options I want I'm looking at about half that. If you're just going to buy an "a la carte" brompton (pick your options and get it built) I think the 6-speed adds $100-200 over the 3 speed.

Hey Jeff What types of hills did you try the Brompton on? Will you be riding hills on your regular commute. I too like the folder size but worry about my hills, which kick my ***** on a touring bike. Charlie

[Dahon.Steve]

I agree with you up to a point, Dahon Steve. I would not spend 2000 dollars for any bike-even a performance one. I find that once you go beyond a middle priced model for any make-be it Dahon, Brompton or Bike Friday-you are paying for ego enhancement, not for any real gains in performance. My guess is the person in question, Eggplant Jeff, has been conditioned to pay more because he has not been educated in bike usage like his more astute European and Asian counterparts. The people who use bikes the most tend to have simple machines that are dependable, not too flashy, and does it's job well. Americans are conditioned to have the best-even though it may not be on closer examination.


Agreed.

I find that the best utility bicycle in my stable is NOT my folding bike but a 15 year old scratched up Univega Hybrid that I'll leave outside while shopping! I hide the bike and avoid cycle racks and I'm fine. Lugging a folding bike through the mall or supermarket is not fun at all. In fact, I've only seen one Brompton owner in my whole life lug that bike in Sears. There are thousands of folding bike owners but most leave them outside locked to some pole! Seriously. Lugging a 25 pound bike throughout the mall is no fun at all even with rollers.

[Simple Simon]

Lugging a folding bike through the mall or supermarket is not fun at all. In fact, I've only seen one Brompton owner in my whole life lug that bike in Sears. There are thousands of folding bike owners but most leave them outside locked to some pole! Seriously. Lugging a 25 pound bike throughout the mall is no fun at all even with rollers.

Thats also what I hate about Brompton (and other folding bikes) - having to carry them - along with bashed shins :mad: . For this, railway platforms, long office corridors, and anywhere indoors, Stridas just rock ! You roll it along just like a wheeled stick. Then park it vertically (with those handlebar brake loops) next to the counter, or almost anywhere.

[folder fanatic]

Well, for me the folders that I have are mainly intended and purchased for emergencies i.e. transit strikes, riots, terrorist attacts, natural disasters (of which Southern California has seen it's fair share or at least threatened seriously with). These types of bikes with internal hub gears-rather than derailleurs which are more prone to damage-are the best for that purpose. I did not try to be cheap with the components used.

In wartime, the folder was developed to ]stay[/B] with it's user unless parachuting out of a plane or something. From what I was told, the bikes were in constant use. They were not locked up to the nearest post. I usually don't like to take bikes with me otherwise-too much hassle and danger around here.

[Guest]

I agree with you up to a point, Dahon Steve. I would not spend 2000 dollars for any bike-even a performance one. I find that once you go beyond a middle priced model for any make-be it Dahon, Brompton or Bike Friday-you are paying for ego enhancement, not for any real gains in performance. My guess is the person in question, Eggplant Jeff, has been conditioned to pay more because he has not been educated in bike usage like his more astute European and Asian counterparts. The people who use bikes the most tend to have simple machines that are dependable, not too flashy, and does it's job well. Americans are conditioned to have the best-even though it may not be on closer examination.

I myself have both the Dahon and the Brompton entry level bikes. Each does it's job, yet the Brompton has definate quality gains over the Dahon (which in itself is a perfectly satisfactory bike to use). I prefer the Brompton over the Dahon any time even if means paying a lot more for the difference in money value across the borders. Dahon has it but it is more hidden. And another thing to consider is it's foldability factor. Bike Friday is big on performance, but folding is secondary since it is not very good for nonsuitcase transit options. Dahon and others are bulky compared to Brompton and Strida.

You don't sound like you travel at all.

It sounds like you need a folder just to get around town or something along those ends. Don't judge me to your standards. I do tours- world tours. A simple bike that you seem to cherish will most likely not suit my needs. I rode through Italy and Switzerland. Do you really think your low level bike would suit my needs? If you do, you need to travel more often.

I got a Bike Friday. I decided to go with the custom bike. Why? Because I want a bike that's comfortable for me. If you've ever taken a trip where you've had to haul 50+ pounds of gear up and down mountains all day, you'd want to be as comfortable as you can too. I also upgraded the components on my BF. Why? Because if you're hauling 50+ pounds of gear up and down mountains all day, you better pray your gears shift as smoothly as possible. I've done mountain rides (and tours) on lower end bikes with average components. I also paid extra for the luggage that comes with the BF. Why? Because it's one of the most secure luggages that convert to a trailer. It makes things totally easy for me, and it ensures that my touring goes as smoothly as possible. To say that I did this for ego means you know very little about folders except what your mind conceives of them to be used for.

Thankfully, folders have such a variety of uses that if you just need to tool around town, you can get a folder for that and not make that big investment. But the more you're going to need that folder for, the more high end it's going to go, and the more it's going to cost. And sure, there will always be people that think they can do a full Swiss tour across the Alps on a Itsy Breezer. God bless 'em. But for those who want a bit more comfort and want a higher performance bike, then don't fault them for putting the money down. It just looks narrow minded, and not to insult you, but it looks cheap.

I find it laughable that you're claiming my bike friday is non-transitable. I always can get on any bus or train by folding it down and sticking a sheet over it or throwing a big garbage bag over it. If it can fold, it will be transit-able.

Tell you what. Next time I plan my next trip overseas, I'll tell you in advance. You can bring your basic folding bike and we'll take the Alps one mountain at a time. I'll try not to let my ego get in the way.

Koffee

[Eggplant Jeff]

There was a guy using the rollers and was constantly going down and bending over to push the bike. Yes, it did look funny and did draw attention. To date, I've seen very few people use this feature because it looks strange having to practically get down on the floor to push it every few feet! You think it's a handy feature but the "stares" might be a little too much.

Well he must have wanted to do it that way, since all you have to do is leave the handlebars unfolded and you can use them as a handle to wheel the bike around WITHOUT bending over. And you can leave the luggage attached to them too and you have a neat little luggage cart that is stable and allows access to your stuff.