Advantages of a custom compact frame?

[CardiacKid]

I have always been told that the main advantage of a compact frame is that it is more adaptable to people of different builds. However, I have seen alot of custom framebuilders making frames with sloping top tubes lately. Obviously that is not an issue on a custom frame. Other than some minor weight savings, what are the advantages of a custom compact frame? Why would anyone want a custom frame with almost 18 inches of seatpost showing, like in this picture?
http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/images/53/47.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

I have always been told that the main advantage of a compact frame is that it is more adaptable to people of different builds. However, I have seen alot of custom framebuilders making frames with sloping top tubes lately. Obviously that is not an issue on a custom frame. Other than some minor weight savings, what are the advantages of a custom compact frame? Why would anyone want a custom frame with almost 18 inches of seatpost showing, like in this picture?


market pressure?

[CardiacKid]

market pressure?
I don't have a problem with the framebuilder building what the customer wants. I guess my question is why would the customer want something like that?Different strokes? Am I just old? Don't answer that.

[velonomad]

My conspiracy theory is that the manufacturers came up with the sloping top tube so they could make less sizes of frames. instead of making frames in 2 cm increments they could jump 4 to 5 cm between sizes, Some bikes now come as small-medium- large. They told the always gullible cycling press that the sloping top tube frame is stiffer and lighter ( which it can be) Of course the American cycling press these days do little more than reprint press releases. So everybody buys what the magazines tell them to buy. Not only do we have less sizes available we also have nearly every bike with threadless stems.which have a very limited range of adjustment. Half the posts on the forums seem to be someone with a comfort issue related to thier bike.

[bellweatherman]

Good question. I think it's also good to think about it in terms of the reverse. What are the advantages of a custom non-sloping frame? The only advantage I could think about is higher weight. What else?

We are talking custom frames, correct? So, if you are a buyer, why would you want to get a custom non-sloping frame as opposed to a custom-sloping frame? Please do tell.

[CardiacKid]

What is the weight savings really. When you stick a tall seatpost on there, like in the picture, I would think you are eating up the weight savings. A seatpost that tall is going to have to be stronger than the seattube, because it doesn't have bracing that the seattube has, so it can't really be any lighter per inch than a good tubeset? Additionally, you are going to have to have more overlap of the post inside the tube, for additional support, aren't you?
By the way, I asked the question, bellweatherman, if you want to ask a question, start your own thread. :) But the answer is that a custom compact frame with a tall seatpost looks like some generic Taiwanese frame or maybe a unicycle.
If you are going steel, one would assume you are more of a traditionalist to begin with.
Additionally if you are buying a steel $5000 bike you aren't going to be racing it in Crits, so how much stiffness do you need, if the compact frame is actually stiffer.

[Bing]

Why would anyone want one? Maybe you should be asking Dazza (http://www.llewellynbikes.com/main.htm). He's written that a good majority of his book is now filled with orders for Pacenti Slant6 (http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html) punters. He's also working on something he calls Tiny Slant6 (http://www.llewellynbikes.com/thegallery/album54) lugs for conventional oversize (28.6 top and 31.8 down) tubesets.

I remember speaking about this with DonW and he said if he was doing one, he'd design it out as if he was making a horizontal. Then he'd draw a line down from the HT/TT centerline intercept to the ST at 6deg to account for the lugs/slope. Nothing different for rider position, the front end is all the same.

If it's just another flavour of custom to account for differing tastes, then how can it be bad if it keeps the slopers away from the mall?

[StanSeven]

Someone mentioned market pressure and that's part of it. Most custom builders say the overwhelming majority of their customers pick a sloping top tube given a choice. Many non-custom frames come only with a sloping tube so many people obviously like it. Several of these manufactures did extensive market research first and customers like the looks, function, and aesthetics of a sloping tube.

In terms of functions, the sloping tube serves several purposes. It allows some configurations to be set up so the frame doesn't look funny. The compact design allows for the bars to get higher if that's what the rider wants. It also alllows for a slightly stiffer bottom and rear. Finally it results in a slight weight reduction, particulary if a super long seatpost isn't required.

[e-RICHIE]

Someone mentioned market pressure and that's part of it. Most custom builders say the overwhelming majority of their customers pick a sloping top tube given a choice. Many non-custom frames come only with a sloping tube so many people obviously like it. Several of these manufactures did extensive market research first and customers like the looks, function, and aesthetics of a sloping tube.

In terms of functions, the sloping tube serves several purposes. It allows some configurations to be set up so the frame doesn't look funny. The compact design allows for the bars to get higher if that's what the rider wants. It also alllows for a slightly stiffer bottom and rear. Finally it results in a slight weight reduction, particulary if a super long seatpost isn't required.


compact-design frames and slopers are two different
styles and were each concocted to solve different issues.

[StanSeven]

compact-design frames and slopers are two different
styles and were each concocted to solve different issues.

That is true. However since the subject is on compact frames, I was focusing on compacts and see I did combine the two.

[CardiacKid]

In other words, I am old and out of touch. That is not the first time I have figured that out.

[bellweatherman]

What is the weight savings really. When you stick a tall seatpost on there, like in the picture, I would think you are eating up the weight savings. A seatpost that tall is going to have to be stronger than the seattube, because it doesn't have bracing that the seattube has, so it can't really be any lighter per inch than a good tubeset? Additionally, you are going to have to have more overlap of the post inside the tube, for additional support, aren't you?
By the way, I asked the question, bellweatherman, if you want to ask a question, start your own thread. :) But the answer is that a custom compact frame with a tall seatpost looks like some generic Taiwanese frame or maybe a unicycle.
If you are going steel, one would assume you are more of a traditionalist to begin with.
Additionally if you are buying a steel $5000 bike you aren't going to be racing it in Crits, so how much stiffness do you need, if the compact frame is actually stiffer.



Is that town lake? Anyway, really though. Most of these custom compact road frames don't require a different seatpost than the standard length road seatposts that are being manufactured nowadays...so even, if you went to a compact frame, you'd still be using the same standard road seatpost available at any bike shop. So, I disagree that you would have to buy a longer and heavier seatpost to use with a new custom compact frame.

So in reverse, basically what you are saying is that there are "funny" advantages to having a standard non-sloping road frame. For example in your speech on custom frames, traditional non-compact frames weigh slightly more, might even be a teensy bit more flexible, and have less standover clearance... but they look better. Yep. That's what you just said. Just in terms of a traditional non-sloping custom design, that is. So in theory, throwing all else aside, since traditional frames looks better they are better. Just going off of what you said.

[CardiacKid]

What I said was that the there is no difference in weight when you have to put on an extra long seatpost, like the picture. In fact, in that case the opposite may be true. Manufacturers say the frame weighs 100 grams less than a comparable traditional frame, ignoring the fact that it is going to take an extra long seatpost that weighs 150 grams more. I just made up those numbers, so don't go doing alot of research showing they are way off. If the bike in question had had a standard seatpost, I wouldn't have asked the question.
The only other advantage that was listed was that the frame might be stiffer in the bottom bracket area. For the use most customers intend, what is the advantage of that?
The final argument is that if this design was lighter and stiffer it would be better for road racing. How many stages of the TdF have been won on a compact frame? This is especially significant in light of the fact that companies use the TdF so much for marketing to sell bikes to people like me, who have no use for a racing bike.
Again, why should I "Mr. Charity Ride" get a custom compact frame with a giant seat post?
The picture is from Spectrum's website and is this month's bike of the month. I doubt it is was taken in downtown Austin. If I was going to take a picture on Town Lake, it wouldn't be of a bike;)

[ultraman6970]

HI...

I have a ridley compact frame... the frame is super stiff... maybe one of the best road bikes i ever road... and in my case is that im just in the middle of sizes.. between a medium and a large... I decided a large because of the efective lenght of it, thats all.. What else i can say about a compact frame? hmmm... comfortable? yes.. but it is because of the brand maybe... stable? yes.... I can ride no hands even in tarmac with that thing... well... market goes here and there... but what i know is that initially compact or sloping frames were created for short people... now they have the chance of getting a better fit.. girls have that problem too... dunno... I have my "del valle" in still and i love it too (regular configuration)...

Again.. lets see what the guys came up with to sell the PILLS now... the worse part is that the people buy the ideas in the magazines... well I dont read stuff anyways...

cya :)

[ultraman6970]

now the point... I forgot it...! I would use a custom made compact frame.. im just between sizes hehe...

:)

[Ignatz]

Speaking for myself the sloping top tube on my Curtlo lets the bike fit my freakishly short legs and long upper body.

[dialtone]

In terms of functions, the sloping tube serves several purposes. It allows some configurations to be set up so the frame doesn't look funny. The compact design allows for the bars to get higher if that's what the rider wants. It also alllows for a slightly stiffer bottom and rear. Finally it results in a slight weight reduction, particulary if a super long seatpost isn't required.

How does the sloping toptube result in a stiffer bottom and rear? Do you think that the few centimeters you would lose on the seatstays would make a difference to the stiffness of the rear and the bottom?

[dialtone]

compact-design frames and slopers are two different
styles and were each concocted to solve different issues.

Please explain the difference between the compact-frame design and the sloper and the different issues they attempt to solve.

[bellweatherman]

Again, why should I "Mr. Charity Ride" get a custom compact frame with a giant seat post?
The picture is from Spectrum's website and is this month's bike of the month. I doubt it is was taken in downtown Austin. If I was going to take a picture on Town Lake, it wouldn't be of a bike;)


Hang on a sec. Are you talking about custom frames or production frames? Because in the title of the thread and your original post you are inquiring about the whys of a custom compact frame. Yet, in your words and your Spectrum bike picture you keep asking why anybody would get such a frame with a mtn bike seatpost. First, most people that get custom compact frames aren't going to go to such an extreme on the sloping top tube to require a mtn bike seatpost.

And here's the answer to the 1st question: You want to know why someone would get a custom compact frame with a mountain bike seatpost? Hey, beats the hell out of me. Why not? In that regards, if you are going to get a CUSTOM frame? Why not get it right so that you can still use a regular seatpost? That's what I would do. Weight savings are insignificant, but it's still weight savings.

Here's the answer to your other question: You want to know why some "Charity Ride Joe" would want to get a custom frame with a mountain bike seatpost? Beats me. If you're going to get a custom frame, get whatever you want. Whether it is traditional or sloping.

[Peterpan1]

Well that particular bike is going to let you get really low on the bars...

[e-RICHIE]

Please explain the difference between the compact-frame design and the sloper and the different issues they attempt to solve.



here:
http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=framebuilders.10407.0078.eml
http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=framebuilders.10407.0084.eml

[CardiacKid]

Hang on a sec. Are you talking about custom frames or production frames? Because in the title of the thread and your original post you are inquiring about the whys of a custom compact frame. Yet, in your words and your Spectrum bike picture you keep asking why anybody would get such a frame with a mtn bike seatpost. First, most people that get custom compact frames aren't going to go to such an extreme on the sloping top tube to require a mtn bike seatpost.

And here's the answer to the 1st question: You want to know why someone would get a custom compact frame with a mountain bike seatpost? Hey, beats the hell out of me. Why not? In that regards, if you are going to get a CUSTOM frame? Why not get it right so that you can still use a regular seatpost? That's what I would do. Weight savings are insignificant, but it's still weight savings.

Here's the answer to your other question: You want to know why some "Charity Ride Joe" would want to get a custom frame with a mountain bike seatpost? Beats me. If you're going to get a custom frame, get whatever you want. Whether it is traditional or sloping.
The only reason I got sidetracked into production bikes was to point out that the weight savings is more marketing hype than reality. They can advertise that the frame is lighter than their competitors, without mentioning the weight added by the added seatpost length. I actually went out and measured the seatpost on my retro steel bike and it is 200mm. I don't think it would fit on very many compact frames.
If I understand you correctly, your answer to my question is "I don't know". We sure went a long way to get there:).
The real question would be, why as a framebuilder would you want to display on your website, a bike that doesn't look like it is the right size for the owner. It looks like the Schwinn Varsity I got when I was 12 years old, when I was 20. By the way, the quill stem eventually broke off that bike. I now know that it was probably because I had raised it over the maximum height. My roommate, who was riding it at the time, always thought it was because he was fat.

[bellweatherman]

The real question would be, why as a framebuilder would you want to display on your website, a bike that doesn't look like it is the right size for the owner. It looks like the Schwinn Varsity I got when I was 12 years old, when I was 20.


OK, so if we are truly sticking to discussing "custom" road frames, the idea is to get a frame and not have to resort to extreme measures and buy a mtn bike seatpost. As for why the Spectrum owner with the custom Spectrum wanted to buy a custom frame small enough so that he/she had to use a mtn bike seatpost. No idea on that one. Maybe they just wanted super duper standover clearance. Certainly, this isn't the norm for custom compact road frames.

You basically are asking, "why get a custom compact road frame and have to put on a mountain bike seatpost instead of a normal seatpost?"
That is like asking, "Why get a new car with custom sound system only to have to use 8-track audio cassettes instead of CDs?"


Seems like you already have the answer to your own question. That you like traditional frames better than compact because of looks. And that is truly ok. Really. Other than looks the advantages of a custom traditional road frame over a custom compact frame is...

heavier frame,
extra flexiness (no biggie)
and less standover clearance (measurable difference here)
All 3 above qualities (heaviness, flexiness, less standover clearance) are highly desired by any Average Joe! Since you are getting a custom frame, may as well get what you want.

[e-RICHIE]

The only reason I got sidetracked into production bikes was to point out that the weight savings is more marketing hype than reality. They can advertise that the frame is lighter than their competitors, without mentioning the weight added by the added seatpost length.<cut>


does anyone know how much a 3mm-5mm section
of .6mm-7.mm guage seat tubes weighs? or the
accompanying scrap saved by a pair of shorter
seat stays?

mebbe 30 gms max????

[bellweatherman]

does anyone know how much a 3mm-5mm section
of .6mm-7.mm guage seat tubes weighs? or the
accompanying scrap saved by a pair of shorter
seat stays?

mebbe 30 gms max????


I thought it was a little more than that, but insignificant weight savings nonetheless.

[CardiacKid]

does anyone know how much a 3mm-5mm section
of .6mm-7.mm guage seat tubes weighs? or the
accompanying scrap saved by a pair of shorter
seat stays?

mebbe 30 gms max????
Thanks. If i ditch my tube socks and get some real cycling socks, I think I can save that ounce.

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks. If i ditch my tube socks and get some real cycling socks, I think I can save that ounce.



i feel ya'

[Lamplight]

I simply can't stand the way compact frames look. That's my reason. :D I always have to remind myself I'm not looking at a mountain bike frame with road bike components. :p In the same way, I know most newer mountain bikes are probably great for their intended purposes, but the drastically sloping top tube makes them look like kids' bikes to me. :D As far as looks go, I prefer a road bike with a horizontal top tube and a mountain bike with a slight slope.

[Bing]

I simply can't stand the way compact frames look. That's my reason. OK, fair enough. But is there really that much of a difference between the two bikes represented by the BikeCAD output attached here?

Everything is exactly the same; front center, BB drop, seatpost setback, fork rake, stay length. Everything except for the reverse sloping TT.

And a question for you e-R. Dazza wrote that he saw a niche for smaller riders that might like a compact frame and set about designing the TinySlant6 lugset because KP's original was better suited for bigger heavier riders that like the stiffness a double-oversize tubeset provides. Given that it would allow you to do your thing the way you do, lugged, can you see instances in your current build queue that you might consider using Dazza's lugs when they hit the market?

[Lamplight]

But is there really that much of a difference between the two bikes represented by the BikeCAD output attached here?

There is quite a difference in appearance to me. The one with the sloping top tube looks like a mtb frame with short chainstays and drops bars. lol But to each their own.

[bellweatherman]

There is quite a difference in appearance to me. The one with the sloping top tube looks like a mtb frame with short chainstays and drops bars. lol But to each their own.



I really don't see why the fashion police give a rat's *** one way or another. If the tradtional frame looks good, then ride it. If the compact frame looks good, ride that one. Quit crapping on the compact frame.

[Lamplight]

I really don't see why the fashion police give a rat's *** one way or another. If the tradtional frame looks good, then ride it. If the compact frame looks good, ride that one. Quit crapping on the compact frame.
I was simply responding to the drawing and explaining why they look different to me and why I like the appearance of one over the other. What's the big deal?

[Thylacine]

You know, I really hate the term 'compact'. You know why? Because the only thing compact about it is the amount of space a geometry chart with only 5 sizes on it takes.

It's all a construct by Giant. They wanted to get into the road market so they threw megabucks at sponsoring big teams and somehow managed to sell to the public and their dealers that 4 sizes (now 5) were better than 10. "Compact' is a miracle of marketing, nothing else.

Now, if we're talking 'road bikes with sloping top tubes', then that's different. It's mostly an aesthetic judgement. The reason I like it is because I come from a mountain bike background and I ride a 62cm frame. Have you seen what a 62+cm frame looks like with a horizontal top tube? It looks like an adult attempting to ride a BMX.

That's my main reason. Sloping the top tube might loose you 30-50g off the frame, but you make that up with the extra length of the seatpost, so that's a moot point. A smaller rear triangle is MORE vertically compliant, so it theoretically should soften the ride a little. Whoever convinced everyone that a more obtuse triangle is stiffer than one that's less obtuse is a genius and is probably the same person that convinced everyone that Australia is 'downunder'.

I suspect he's a Giant sales rep working in the US somewhere.

[bellweatherman]

You know, I really hate the term 'compact'. You know why? Because the only thing compact about it is the amount of space a geometry chart with only 5 sizes on it takes.

It's all a construct by Giant. They wanted to get into the road market so they threw megabucks at sponsoring big teams and somehow managed to sell to the public and their dealers that 4 sizes (now 5) were better than 10. "Compact' is a miracle of marketing, nothing else.

Now, if we're talking 'road bikes with sloping top tubes', then that's different. It's mostly an aesthetic judgement. The reason I like it is because I come from a mountain bike background and I ride a 62cm frame. Have you seen what a 62+cm frame looks like with a horizontal top tube? It looks like an adult attempting to ride a BMX.

That's my main reason. Sloping the top tube might loose you 30-50g off the frame, but you make that up with the extra length of the seatpost, so that's a moot point. A smaller rear triangle is MORE vertically compliant, so it theoretically should soften the ride a little. Whoever convinced everyone that a more obtuse triangle is stiffer than one that's less obtuse is a genius and is probably the same person that convinced everyone that Australia is 'downunder'.

I suspect he's a Giant sales rep working in the US somewhere.



Good point, but compact production frames are, in fact, available in more than 4 sizes depending on which manufacturer you're talking about. In this instance, the topic of discussion is about custom compact frames, which are available in an infinite number of sizes.

2nd thing is that seatpost manufacturers are making their standard posts longer than before, so no. You get a compact frame and chances are, you WILL NOT have to use a longer mtn bike type seatpost. Unless, of course, you go f'ing overboard and get a custom frame with a huge slope to the top tube.

[CardiacKid]

Good point, but compact production frames are, in fact, available in more than 4 sizes depending on which manufacturer you're talking about. In this instance, the topic of discussion is about custom compact frames, which are available in an infinite number of sizes.

2nd thing is that seatpost manufacturers are making their standard posts longer than before, so no. You get a compact frame and chances are, you WILL NOT have to use a longer mtn bike type seatpost. Unless, of course, you go f'ing overboard and get a custom frame with a huge slope to the top tube.
You have this incredibly annoying way of arguing without actually saying anything. Except your continued statement that seatposts on conventional frames are the same length as compact frames, which is patently untrue, unless the person has bought a bike that is too small to begin with. I am not a weight weenie by any stretch, but if I had an extra 100mm of seatpost sitting in the seattube, I would get out the trusty Dremel tool and fix that problem.

[bellweatherman]

You have this incredibly annoying way of arguing without actually saying anything. Except your continued statement that seatpost on conventional frames are the same length as compact frames, which is patently untrue, unless the person has bought a bike that is too small to begin with. I am not a weight weenie by any stretch, but if I had an extra 100mm of seatpost sitting in the seattube, I would get out the trusty Dremel tool and fix that problem.




Man, I'm sorry that you got all annoyed. All I'm saying is that standard road seatposts of today are longer than those of the 80s and even 90s. So, even in the event that you get a compact production frame, it is highly unlikely that you are going to have to buy an extra long mtn bike seatpost. Capiche? That is, unless you get some wacked out custom frame and purposely want to use a mtn bike seatpost. That's it. If you're so biased against the compact frame, just do your own thing with the traditional, insignificantly heavier and flexier frame. No biggie. :D

[e-RICHIE]

<snipped>...just do your own thing with the traditional, insignificantly heavier and flexier frame. No biggie. :D


how can you say it's heavier and/or flexier without
knowing the design and material in question?

[CardiacKid]

Man, I'm sorry that you got all annoyed. All I'm saying is that standard road seatposts of today are longer than those of the 80s and even 90s. So, even in the event that you get a compact production frame, it is highly unlikely that you are going to have to buy an extra long mtn bike seatpost. Capiche? That is, unless you get some wacked out custom frame and purposely want to use a mtn bike seatpost. That's it. If you're so biased against the compact frame, just do your own thing with the traditional, insignificantly heavier and flexier frame. No biggie. :D
What I'm telling you is that I wasn't biased until I started reading your "answers" to my question. I was asking a question. The fact that some manufacturers have decided that instead of making longer posts for compacts and shorter ones for conventional, they will just make longer posts for everyone, whether they need them or not, is not an argument for why compacts are better.
You started out just rephrasing the question. You then said that they were lighter and stronger. It was finally conceded that there might be a 30 gram weight advantage. When someone challenged your assertion that they were stiffer you changed the subject. You have convinced me.

[bellweatherman]

how can you say it's heavier and/or flexier without
knowing the design and material in question?

OK, I see what you are saying. I'm talking purely from a same set of materials standpoint. Given that the same set of tube material and tube diameters, etc...
A traditional frame is heavier than a compact frame. The difference is a small portion of seat tube. And, totally it is pretty insignificant. The traditional frame is flexier than the compact frame in that the compact frame's smaller triangle is stiffer. At least, in theory that is the idea. However, I admit even with the stiffness it is debatable and if there is any stiffness gained or lost, that it is pretty much insignificant as well. So, in sum, the traditional frame is insignificantly heavier and flexier than the compact.

[bellweatherman]

What I'm telling you is that I wasn't biased until I started reading your "answers" to my question. I was asking a question. The fact that some manufacturers have decided that instead of making longer posts for compacts and shorter ones for conventional, they will just make longer posts for everyone, whether they need them or not, is not an argument for why compacts are better.
You started out just rephrasing the question. You then said that they were lighter and stronger. It was finally conceded that there might be a 30 gram weight advantage. When someone challenged your assertion that they were stiffer you changed the subject. You have convinced me.



Dude. Relax. I'm sorry things turned out the way it did. I had no intentions at all at upsetting you. I was only saying that for argument's sake the standard post of today is going to fit the majority of production compact frames out there. Since, the topic was about custom compact frames, you can be sure to design it the way you and your framebuilder agrees to. So, rock on with a compact frame + standard post!

It's not a big deal, the traditional frame weighs insignificantly more than a compact. Who cares? I don't. I ride a traditional level top tube frame. My next frame will be a custom compact frame because traditional frames don't look normal anymore. Just like I use to wear bell-bottoms and had a groovy mustache, but I got with the times. No prob though. If you want the heavier traditional frame, more power to you!
:D

[StanSeven]

Whether people like sloping tubes or not, they seem to be here for awhile. Road magazine publishes an annual guide of bikes and cycling equipment. It includes an extensive list of most of the mid to high end complete bikes as well as a seperate category of just frames and more than half are built with sloping top tubes.

Add to this the feedback from custom builders that say most customers pick a sloping tube when given the preference and it seems like most new customers prefer the look.

[e-RICHIE]

OK, I see what you are saying. I'm talking purely from a same set of materials standpoint. Given that the same set of tube material and tube diameters, etc...
A traditional frame is heavier than a compact frame. The difference is a small portion of seat tube. And, totally it is pretty insignificant. The traditional frame is flexier than the compact frame in that the compact frame's smaller triangle is stiffer. At least, in theory that is the idea. However, I admit even with the stiffness it is debatable and if there is any stiffness gained or lost, that it is pretty much insignificant as well. So, in sum, the traditional frame is insignificantly heavier and flexier than the compact.


" The difference is a small portion of seat tube. "
wrong yo.
if you lower the seat tube (which, btw, is the thinnest guage
area on any frame) by, say, 3-4 cm, the top tube's effective
cut length is lengthened to give the same reach as was on
the traditional design. so? this extra length cancels out that
extra length if you catch my drift. even still, you are talking
about a dozen or so grams at the most. are you really going
to make a point about the two designs based on this amount
of weight?
wrt the "flexier" issue - you would not have a clue which frame
you were on if you were blindfolded. that aspect of the compact/
trad debate is the industry equivilalent of a sugar pill.

[e-RICHIE]

Whether people like sloping tubes or not, they seem to be here for awhile. Road magazine publishes an annual guide of bikes and cycling equipment. It includes an extensive list of most of the mid to high end complete bikes as well as a seperate category of just frames and more than half are built with sloping top tubes.
same could be said for non-curved forks; colnago intro'ed them
in 91-92 as a manufacturing cost cutting method (under the guise
of - what else? - stiffness) and it became a fashion statement copied
by the minions.
Add to this the feedback from custom builders that say most customers pick a sloping tube when given the preference and it seems like most new customers prefer the look.
i'm on the framebuilder listserve and frameforum.net and i've not
seen/read any evidence to support that customers choose "slope"
from framebuilders when offered that option.

[bellweatherman]

" The difference is a small portion of seat tube. "
wrong yo.
if you lower the seat tube (which, btw, is the thinnest guage
area on any frame) by, say, 3-4 cm, the top tube's effective
cut length is lengthened to give the same reach as was on
the traditional design. so? this extra length cancels out that
extra length if you catch my drift. even still, you are talking
about a dozen or so grams at the most. are you really going
to make a point about the two designs based on this amount
of weight?
wrt the "flexier" issue - you would not have a clue which frame
you were on if you were blindfolded. that aspect of the compact/
trad debate is the industry equivilalent of a sugar pill.


So, that's what I said. The traditional frame weighs insignificantly more. I know that by lowering the seat tube, it slightly increases the top tube. But mathematically, you are cutting more from the seat tube than you gain in top tube length. Therefore, you still have some weight savings. Albeit pretty small. Indeed, with the "flexier" issue, I believe that it's probably so insignificant as well that you aren't going to be able to tell a difference. Isn't that what I've said all along?

Where does that leave us? Traditional frames are insignificantly heavier and more flexy (debatable). They do have less standover slearance if that is an issue for some people. I'm all about compactness, even though I'm currently on a traditional level top tube. However, if people want to rock the free world and ride a traditional frame, more power to them!

[e-RICHIE]

<cut>However, if people want to rock the free world and ride a traditional frame, more power to them!


agreed.
fwiw, i just weighed a 4cm section of seat tube,
a 3cm section of top tube (a guess on the length),
and a 4cm offcut of 2 seat stays (again, a guess
on the length) - and the net weight difference in
"going compact" is less than an ounce.


ps
i assume you'd get that ounce back with
the longer section of seat post needed
to span the difference.

[CardiacKid]

So, that's what I said. The traditional frame weighs insignificantly more. I know that by lowering the seat tube, it slightly increases the top tube. But mathematically, you are cutting more from the seat tube than you gain in top tube length. Therefore, you still have some weight savings. Albeit pretty small. Indeed, with the "flexier" issue, I believe that it's probably so insignificant as well that you aren't going to be able to tell a difference. Isn't that what I've said all along?

Where does that leave us? Traditional frames are insignificantly heavier and more flexy (debatable). They do have less standover slearance if that is an issue for some people. I'm all about compactness, even though I'm currently on a traditional level top tube. However, if people want to rock the free world and ride a traditional frame, more power to them!
I want to make sure I understand you. Compact frames may or may not be lighter than traditional, and if they are, the difference is so miniscule it is irrelevant; they may or may not be slightly stiffer and you prefer the way traditional frames look. But I am a vain idiot if I prefer traditional. Okay, I understand now.

[bellweatherman]

I want to make sure I understand you. Compact frames may or may not be lighter than traditional, and if they are, the difference is so miniscule it is irrelevant; they may or may not be slightly stiffer and you prefer the way traditional frames look. But I am a vain idiot if I prefer traditional. Okay, I understand now.


Dude chill. It's no big deal, really. If you want to rack on with the traditional frame, more power to you. You are NOT a vain idiot for prefering traditional, but you are a stuck up, elitist, snobby dude for crapping on the compact rider's choice. Fairly evident really.

[CardiacKid]

Dude chill. It's no big deal, really. If you want to rack on with the traditional frame, more power to you. You are NOT a vain idiot for prefering traditional, but you are a stuck up, elitist, snobby dude for crapping on the compact rider's choice. Fairly evident really.Show me exactly where I did that. You think spitting out passive aggressive comments makes you somehow have the higher ground, Dude you have a problem. I have not crapped on the compact riders choice, I have crapped on your lame arguments talking out of both sides of your mouth and another orifice. I have tried to compile your arguments. I have left out any mention of stand over height because I have yet to figure out how that is really an advantage of any consequence.

What are the advantages of a custom non-sloping frame? The only advantage I could think about is higher weight. What else?...
So, that's what I said. The traditional frame weighs insignificantly more....
Other than looks the advantages of a custom traditional road frame over a custom compact frame is...
heavier frame,
extra flexiness (no biggie)...
The traditional frame weighs insignificantly more....
My next frame will be a custom compact frame because traditional frames don't look normal anymore....
So in theory, throwing all else aside, since traditional frames looks better they are better....
Traditional frames are insignificantly heavier and more flexy (debatable)....
You want to know why someone would get a custom compact frame with a mountain bike seatpost? Hey, beats the hell out of me. Why not? In that regards, if you are going to get a CUSTOM frame? Why not get it right so that you can still use a regular seatpost? That's what I would do....
In compiling these quotes, I have been trying to gleen some useful information. Sorry, couldn't do it.
"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain

[bellweatherman]

Show me exactly where I did that. You think spitting out passive aggressive comments makes you somehow have the higher ground, Dude you have a problem. I have not crapped on the compact riders choice, I have crapped on your lame arguments talking out of both sides of your mouth and another orifice. I have tried to compile your arguments. I have left out any mention of stand over height because I have yet to figure out how that is really an advantage of any consequence.




Man, relax! OK?! Take a walk around beautiful Town Lake Austin. I'm sorry if you were offended by my poor use of words. I take it back. You are NOT crapping on compact frames. OK? Let it go. Let's just shoot the breeze. No need to get all in a huff. It's ok, really. I've got no bad intentions to you or anybody else or even anybody that wants to ride a traditional sloping frame. It's all good. OK? Traditional frames are good.

[Thylacine]

"same could be said for non-curved forks; colnago intro'ed them
in 91-92 as a manufacturing cost cutting method (under the guise
of - what else? - stiffness) and it became a fashion statement copied
by the minions."

Same thing happened in the MTB scene, Richo. Then people discovered that the tubing selection made stacks more difference than the bend of the tube, then everyone shaddap about it. I like straight blade just for looks. (You can add that to my wishlist - a nice IC crown with three IC cast fork ends with three different offsets. Then I'll become a 'Steel Fork Man'.

"i'm on the framebuilder listserve and frameforum.net and i've not
seen/read any evidence to support that customers choose "slope"
from framebuilders when offered that option."

That's because I don't think you have a handle on all the non-traditional builders out there. All the TIG guys are building sloping top tubed roadies as that's what people are asking for. Also, isn't Dazza selling Slant6ers and introducing a mini slant 6 lugset? Surely that indicates there's a demand, no?

Personally, I think it's all an aesthetic judgement. Heck, I've built a couple of fixies with sloping UP top tubes, and as I mentioned, the bigger size bikes just plain look better with a sloping top tube IMHO. Makes 'em look less like a clowns bike, and believe me, I already look too much like a clown as it is :)