Living Car Free - she says she's an adult because she bought a car

One of my co-workers last summer bought a car on credit for some $7,000, at age 18. She was living with her mom and certainly earning enough to cover the car expenses. Our supervisor was talking about what a responsible young person she was being by buying a car without a parent co-signing on the loan. This responsible young person may never have a post-high-school degree, but hey, whatever works for you!

A cousin of mine who lives in Los Angeles wrote an e-mail I got today sent it to the extended family saying how 'she's an adult now' because she bought a little sports car without anybody else co-signing her (probably big) loan. My cousin also has a job (and a college diploma) and I'm sure she can afford the car, but I'm sure she's not saving for retirement or her kids' college expenses now. :) (Although she may or may not have kids some day.)

I'm just thinking to myself sarcastically, 'wow, that's great'.

Hey, with at least 15 minutes of car ads in an hour on the tv what do you want?
People get brainwashed so easily..................

You sound bitter.

For an 18 year old, student loans are an investment. Car loans are a burden.

cool - one more car. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should start an automotive intervention service to prevent "Oil Addiction" ;o)

Last time I checked it was illegal in New York to sell a car or motorcycle to anyone under 21 without parental consent -- at least I had to get consent when I bought my motorcycle and I was paying cash.

You really have to wonder about a bank that would give an 18 year old a $7000 credit line or the wisdom of paying credit card interest rates when lower interest rate loans are usually available. Of course those lower rate car loans probably aren't available to people under 21.

Stacy

You really have to wonder about a bank that would give an 18 year old a $7000 credit line or the wisdom of paying credit card interest rates when lower interest rate loans are usually available. Of course those lower rate car loans probably aren't available to people under 21.

Stacy

The lending standards have gone way down hill in recent years. I havn't really heard this mentioned in regards to cars so much, but primarily the housing market. I've heard many stories of banks giving someone a mortgage to buy a home simply because the person has a good FICO score, without verifying their income.

^^^ same in Australia,
College/Uni loans are investments
big car debt is a burden
Luckily enough my uni loan doesnt attract interest ;)
Funny enough by the time I find a park and walk to the lecture its quicker if i ride, So i stick with the bike

'A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.'
Margaret Thatcher, 1986

(yeah you've heard this one before, but it's fitting)

Our supervisor was talking about what a responsible young person she was being by buying a car without a parent co-signing on the loan.
Does this really mean that parents would not pay for the car if she does not have money to pay the loan herself? I'm really curious. I have children myself and I feel that I ought to support them even when they grow up, same way my parents are always ready to offer help if I need one. The above situation would mean just higher interest rate (assuming that parents' credit hisory is better than her's), and just plainly stupid.

^^^ same in Australia,
College/Uni loans are investments



no... they're gamble considering you can't bankrupt on them, the cost of school goes up every year because they like building ancy luxury type housing and recreation centers and such, and congress is trying to cut into the student loan program...........

so.. you may be able to afford college when ya start... but will ya be able to afford to finish? especially if you can't get anyone to co-sign for loans not given by the government...


(i just wanted to rant.. sorry)


and yeah.... that chick's a dodo... unless her mummy is rich and will bail her out... damn richie ass fools.

For an 18 year old, student loans are an investment. Car loans are a burden.

Not necessarily. I personally know someone who, at 18, went to university to earn a B.A., graduated, and is now driving a school bus to pay off her student loan. There are plenty of "Doctors" and "Lawyers" who are driving taxi cabs to pay off their student loans.

At least with a car, she'll be able to get a job delivering pizzas to pay off any student loan she may decide to get!

Does this really mean that parents would not pay for the car if she does not have money to pay the loan herself? I'm really curious. I have children myself and I feel that I ought to support them even when they grow up, same way my parents are always ready to offer help if I need one. The above situation would mean just higher interest rate (assuming that parents' credit hisory is better than her's), and just plainly stupid.

Sort of. It means the Loan company will not come after the parents in the case of a default on the loan. The parents could still help.

Depending on the situation it definitely is not 'stupid'

1. Generally the parents are at greater financial risk. They can come after your house etc.
2. Having a loan in her own name helps to build her credit history and credit score.

And technically they are right. She is an adult. Last time I checked they won't let kids buy cars. :-)

-D

The best way to improve your credit score is by not needing credit. One of the great paradoxes of modern society.

Yeah, but how many people can say they didn't buy a car when they were 16-18. I'm showing my age, but in the early '70s, I can't think of one friend of mine who didn't have a car by the time they were 18.

Not much has changed since then. We're still an automobile-centered culture. Darn.

Oh dear, by Margaret's estimation i am a failure and may likely always be one!

(Maybe it is petty but am i the only one that will throw a party when the Iron Lady finally kicks the bucket?)

Plus it looks like i am not an 'adult' either...

So Be It!

:)

You sound bitter.

No, not bitter. But tone is hard to judge over the internet.

I have no need to be bitter. If I really wanted my own car, I'd have my own car, and if I wanted to drive, I'd drive my partner's car instead of leaving it sitting in front of our apartment.

Im fine with that, I never want to be an adult so I will never buy a car :)

One of my co-workers last summer bought a car on credit for some $7,000, at age 18. She was living with her mom and certainly earning enough to cover the car expenses. Our supervisor was talking about what a responsible young person she was being by buying a car without a parent co-signing on the loan. This responsible young person may never have a post-high-school degree, but hey, whatever works for you!

A cousin of mine who lives in Los Angeles wrote an e-mail I got today sent it to the extended family saying how 'she's an adult now' because she bought a little sports car without anybody else co-signing her (probably big) loan. My cousin also has a job (and a college diploma) and I'm sure she can afford the car, but I'm sure she's not saving for retirement or her kids' college expenses now. :) (Although she may or may not have kids some day.)

I'm just thinking to myself sarcastically, 'wow, that's great'.

Save the sarcasm, I may be in my mid-50's, but I can still remember the feeling of freedom with my first car, 30+ years ago. It WAS important, and the memory of that importance is still strong in my mind.

Ownership of a car is not important to you (obviously, or you wouldn't be writing here). It is to her. Her values are just as important and justifiable as yours. Maybe not in this forum, but then this forum isn't the sum total of the real world, either.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

Her values are just as important and justifiable as yours.

I think they're even more important than his, simply because car ownership is valued by the majority of those in the United States (understatement), and the rest of the world is aspiring to be just like us. Justifiable? I wouldn't say that though. Car ownership and dependence (and all the problems that go with it) are simply taken as a given without any critical thought, but as you yourself alluded to the members of this forum think otherwise.

It should also be noted that cars aren't necessarily that big of an expense, and sometimes simply by owning them, one can offset some of those expenses. After being a die-hard cyclist for years, I finally broke down and bought a car at the ripe old age of 23.

That first car cost me $2600 (5 years old) with taxes and licensing. It was a very basic Nissan sub-compact hatchback with an extremely miserly engine that couldn't have made more than 50 horsepower; a minimalist's dream that didn't even have power steering, a working stereo, or a remote hatch release. I think everyone here is quite aware that $2600 Cdn. doesn't go very far after buying a good bike, trailer, accessories, and proper winter riding attire, but it bought me a car that was clean, solid, free of rust and damage, and ran good. Basic insurance (without collision) cost me $60 a month; I offset that by relocating to an apartment a little further from my college that cost $60 a month less in rent (and was bigger). $15-$20 would fill the tank, and a tank of gas would last me a month driving back and forth to school, work, shopping and laundry. Parking was $60 a year. Maintenance involved an $8 DIY oil change every 3-4 months, a $6 air filter once a year, and $6 in spark plugs every two years. I replaced the only belt the car ever had for $10 once the entire time I owned it. I owned that car for five years, then sold it fast for $1000 when I needed something bigger for my family.

I did the math; it was cheaper for me to operate my car than it was for me to buy a bus pass. More importantly, sykerocker is correct; there are no words that can accurately describe the feeling of freedom; it really is euphoric and stays with you for the rest of your life.

There is one disadvantage; one does tend to gain weight after driving a car for a couple of years. Just wait and see.

I bought a car two months after I turned 16. It was a 10-year-old Triumph Spitfire. I got it for $750 cash, money I'd saved from delivering newspapers on my Schwinn Typhoon. That car was a lot of fun, a constant learning experience, and a pretty good babe magnet.

That car also absorbed a lot of my money, time and attention, allowed me to put myself (and others) in serious danger many times, and made it easy to turn away from my excellent fitness habits.

I don't regret having bought that car, but if I went back to that time knowing what I do now, I'm not sure I'd buy the car. I am sure I'd spend a lot less time driving it.

Interesting. How long ago was that? How much would the cost/benefit analysis change with today's gas prices?

In your case it was cheaper, and you were very responsible with breaking down the costs and seeing which option was better. However, I think this...


More importantly, sykerocker is correct; there are no words that can accurately describe the feeling of freedom; it really is euphoric and stays with you for the rest of your life.

Is much more at play with car ownership in America. How many people actually sit down and crunch the numbers the way you did when you got your car? I don't think it's very many. Other less rational factors come into play. People feel they feel to own a car or they'll be considered a loser, so they get one as quickly as they can even if they don't need it. And they certainly wouldn't be the minimalist that you were - they need to get the best. Also many people don't even have the option of public transport like you did, so they really do need the car....

Interesting. How long ago was that? How much would the cost/benefit analysis change with today's gas prices?


1995. Gas prices are up, but so are the prices of bus passes. Unfortunately, ultra-efficient bare-bone cars (Ford Aspire, Geo Metro, my own Nissan Micra) seem to be largely absent from today's automobile choices. Guess there just isn't that much demand for them.

I don't know that I can agree that a student loan is in investment. I lived at home to save money and had a 45 min drive to school. I paid for my school by working at the same time. WHile it may be impractical for a med student to work to pay for school and a student loan may not be so bad, I still question it. I have heard of way too many doctors getting their first job and having over $100k in student loans to pay off. Even with a doctors salary that is still a lot to have to pay off. Then there are all of those people that end up with $50k or more in student loans, which is especially bad when they only get a degree in something that will get them a job paying $25 - 30k a year. The other problem is too many people decide that now that they are out of college and all grown up and have a good paying that they need to live like that, so they go out and get those car loans. If they would only live another year or two like they were when they were in college they could pay that loan off and save some money up. Instead they are so loaded down with debt that if they were to get layed off and go 2 months without their income they would not be able to make their house or car payments, let alone their credit card bills.

By the way in response to theperson above who said that with all of the new car ads out there it is hard to resist. It is the lenders that make it easy for the people not to resist. It would be easy to resist if they had to pay cash for it. It is much easier to say well it is only $200 a month I can afford that, rather than having to write that $8000 check and see your bank account go down that much.

Well one reason that a student loan is an investment is that the interest rates can be lower than inflation rates, meaning you actually make money in terms of purchasing power. Even if the inflation rate is lower than the interest rates, you're still not losing very much money. Car loans have much higher interest rates, and the lenders are betting inflation won't wipe out their earnings on the loan.

The other reason, of course, is that college graduates make a lot more lifelong income than others. Almost always. Probably the only way a car loan will rais your income is if you buy a taxicab with it.

1995. Gas prices are up, but so are the prices of bus passes. Unfortunately, ultra-efficient bare-bone cars (Ford Aspire, Geo Metro, my own Nissan Micra) seem to be largely absent from today's automobile choices. Guess there just isn't that much demand for them.

Ah yes, the Geo Metro - or as my live-in and I called it, The Mousecar. A very nice little package for $9,000 in 1996 (that includes every option possible except automatic transmission). Have wonderful memories of them. If you need a car and can find a clean one, buy it.

Actually, the worm has finally turned. The Chevy Aveo has been a bright spot for GM, completely unnoticed in all the doom and gloom media coverage. Having noticed, Honda's bringing in the Fit, Toyota's replacing the Echo (thank God!) with the Yaris, and Nissan's got something that supposedly will put them all to shame.

It's getting possible to buy a quality car with good gas mileage again, without going to the complexity and expense of a hybrid. Better days are coming. Amazing how self-correcting a capitalist economy can be.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

It is much easier to say well it is only $200 a month I can afford that, rather than having to write that $8000 check and see your bank account go down that much.

Well, a lot of people buy cars when there's absolutely no way they could get one without a loan. They would be scrimping and saving a long time and then buying a car, or not getting one at all, if they couldn't get a loan.

Not that some of them couldn't get a loan even without it being a "car loan".

Well one reason that a student loan is an investment is that the interest rates can be lower than inflation rates, meaning you actually make money in terms of purchasing power. Even if the inflation rate is lower than the interest rates, you're still not losing very much money. Car loans have much higher interest rates, and the lenders are betting inflation won't wipe out their earnings on the loan.

The other reason, of course, is that college graduates make a lot more lifelong income than others. Almost always. Probably the only way a car loan will rais your income is if you buy a taxicab with it.

More accurately, you don't lose money, in terms of purchasing power, due to inflation - which is not the same as making money. I think your second point is closer - you don't get a direct cash return on the money you pay for an education, but it can help you command a higher salary - in this way it could be considered an investment.

Well one reason that a student loan is an investment is that the interest rates can be lower than inflation rates, meaning you actually make money in terms of purchasing power. Even if the inflation rate is lower than the interest rates, you're still not losing very much money. Car loans have much higher interest rates, and the lenders are betting inflation won't wipe out their earnings on the loan.

The other reason, of course, is that college graduates make a lot more lifelong income than others. Almost always. Probably the only way a car loan will rais your income is if you buy a taxicab with it.

This is presuming that said graduate is able to find gainful employment in their field of study. As I mentioned previously, it is becoming more the case these days where post-secondary graduates are unable to do so and thus work at unskilled jobs in order to pay off their loan.

Consider that the depreciation of a car tends to level off after 4 years, so a loan on a good 4-5 year old economy car is going to be considerably less than the average student loan, and consider that it opens more options when it comes to choosing a place to live, which can translate to lower housing expenses. Living where the rent or cost of housing is considerably cheaper can add up over time; in effect the car actually pays for itself. It can actually mean the difference between owning your own home vs. renting; without opening that can of worms again, and with some rare exceptions, there really is no denying the economic benefits of actually owning ones own house.

Ah yes, the Geo Metro - or as my live-in and I called it, The Mousecar. A very nice little package for $9,000 in 1996 (that includes every option possible except automatic transmission). Have wonderful memories of them. If you need a car and can find a clean one, buy it.

Actually, the worm has finally turned. The Chevy Aveo has been a bright spot for GM, completely unnoticed in all the doom and gloom media coverage. Having noticed, Honda's bringing in the Fit, Toyota's replacing the Echo (thank God!) with the Yaris, and Nissan's got something that supposedly will put them all to shame.

It's getting possible to buy a quality car with good gas mileage again, without going to the complexity and expense of a hybrid. Better days are coming. Amazing how self-correcting a capitalist economy can be.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

Unfortunately, these cars aren't quite the same. They all have a larger 1.6L 4 cylinder engine, rather than the 1.0 and 1.2L 3 and 4 cylinder engines of the ultra-efficient cars of the late 80's, early 90's. A '94 Geo with the innovative 3 cylinder engine was rated at getting 53 MPG in the city, 58 MPG on the highway...which is accurate to what people were able to achieve. This puts Toyota's much more expensive hybrid to shame, and eclipses the Echo's 35/42 MPG rating.

The fuel economy of the Aveo is even worse, at 26/35 MPG. However, this is more than made up by the fact that it's really the only car in its class that is actually crashworthy (5 star frontal); a Geo Metro would have probably done more harm than good in a crash.

More accurately, you don't lose money, in terms of purchasing power, due to inflation - which is not the same as making money. I think your second point is closer - you don't get a direct cash return on the money you pay for an education, but it can help you command a higher salary - in this way it could be considered an investment.
No, I said it right. If inflation is high enough, or interest rates low enough, the lender will lose money on an interest bearing loan. Obviously that means that the borrower will be making money. If I borrowed $100 from you at 10 % interest, I would owe you $110 a year later. But if inflation was 20%, the $110 would be worth only $88, in terms of purchasing power, and I would have made a profit even after paying interest.

This is presuming that said graduate is able to find gainful employment in their field of study. As I mentioned previously, it is becoming more the case these days where post-secondary graduates are unable to do so and thus work at unskilled jobs in order to pay off their loan.

Consider that the depreciation of a car tends to level off after 4 years, so a loan on a good 4-5 year old economy car is going to be considerably less than the average student loan, and consider that it opens more options when it comes to choosing a place to live, which can translate to lower housing expenses. Living where the rent or cost of housing is considerably cheaper can add up over time; in effect the car actually pays for itself. It can actually mean the difference between owning your own home vs. renting; without opening that can of worms again, and with some rare exceptions, there really is no denying the economic benefits of actually owning ones own house.
You're one of the wonderful folks who post here who don't seem to grasp the concept that this is a carfree forum! You're sort of like the kid in high school who came to Algebra class prepared to discuss "David Copperfield." :D

First you say that kids shouldn't go to college because they might not find a good job. That's like saying you shouldn't take your bathing suit to the beach because it might rain!

Then you say kids should take their college money and buy a car, which is a good investment because it loses most of it's value in the first 4 years, then depreciation levels off. That's like thanking you for stealing half my money every year for 4 years, then feeling lucky ecause you don't take as much in year 5! How droll.

And here's the punchline. You suggest that the reason a car is a good investment is that with a car, our dropout can have "more options when it comes to choosing a place to live." So then they can buy a house in a cheap neighborhood instead of rent one in an expensive area. Dude--I got news for you! I can live anyplace I want and I don't even have a car. I have plenty of housin options wit my bike! I guess you didn't notice that's pretty much the whole point of this forum!

Anyway, thanks for the chuckles. :roflmao:

No, I said it right. If inflation is high enough, or interest rates low enough, the lender will lose money on an interest bearing loan. Obviously that means that the borrower will be making money. If I borrowed $100 from you at 10 % interest, I would owe you $110 a year later. But if inflation was 20%, the $110 would be worth only $88, in terms of purchasing power, and I would have made a profit even after paying interest.

Wow, a 20% inflation rate in just one year! I think if inflation was that crazy, paying off a student loan would be the least of your worries, because that kind of inflation would definitely drive an economy into a pretty good recession, maybe even a depression. More realistically, inflation tends to grow at more reasonable rates, such as 2.4% from one year to the next. As a general rule, interest rates are higher than the inflation rate, because the banks use higher interest rates to keep the inflation rate in check. Thus, a scenario such as you describe is unlikely.

No, I said it right. If inflation is high enough, or interest rates low enough, the lender will lose money on an interest bearing loan. Obviously that means that the borrower will be making money. If I borrowed $100 from you at 10 % interest, I would owe you $110 a year later. But if inflation was 20%, the $110 would be worth only $88, in terms of purchasing power, and I would have made a profit even after paying interest.

Even for student loans, I think such a loan is quite rare. I could be wrong, but I think even subsidized stafford loans stay relatively constant in purchasing power through the term of the loan rather than losing value.

You're one of the wonderful folks who post here who don't seem to grasp the concept that this is a carfree forum! You're sort of like the kid in high school who came to Algebra class prepared to discuss "David Copperfield." :D

Judging by your previous comments about your mythical economy where inflation is higher than interest rates, I'd say one of us wasn't paying attention in math class...;)



First you say that kids shouldn't go to college because they might not find a good job. That's like saying you shouldn't take your bathing suit to the beach because it might rain!

Then you say kids should take their college money and buy a car, which is a good investment because it loses most of it's value in the first 4 years, then depreciation levels off. That's like thanking you for stealing half my money every year for 4 years, then feeling lucky ecause you don't take as much in year 5! How droll.


Incorrect. All I simply pointed out was that a student loan isn't necessarily a good investment, and a car loan isn't necessarily a bad investment. This doesn't mean that all student loans are bad investments and all car loans are good investments; to say as such would be almost as absurd as your assertions to the contrary. The world isn't as black and white as you might think.

Wow, a 20% inflation rate in just one year! I think if inflation was that crazy, paying off a student loan would be the least of your worries, because that kind of inflation would definitely drive an economy into a pretty good recession, maybe even a depression. More realistically, inflation tends to grow at more reasonable rates, such as 2.4% from one year to the next. As a general rule, interest rates are higher than the inflation rate, because the banks use higher interest rates to keep the inflation rate in check. Thus, a scenario such as you describe is unlikely.
Sorry that I didn't make it clear that my figures were hypothetical examples, chosen for ease of calculation, not actual predictions of future interest rates. I thought most would get that, but I guess not.

Banks don't raise interest rates to fight inflation. Maybe you're thinking of the Federal Reserve System? Banks always charge the highest interest rate they can, simply because they want to make as much money as they can. This is determined by market forces, such as supply and demand.

One main reason that interest rates have been low for many years now is that lenders, borrowers and the Fed have been confident that inflation rates will remain low. Oil prices and other factors all affect this.

Naked Economics is the title of a very readable book on basic economics. I bet you would enjoy it. Sorry I can't remember the author's name.

Sorry that I didn't make it clear that my figures were hypothetical examples, chosen for ease of calculation, not actual predictions of future interest rates. I thought most would get that, but I guess not.

I don't mind hypothetical examples, but it usually helps when your examples reflect real world numbers. :rolleyes:


Banks don't raise interest rates to fight inflation. Maybe you're thinking of the Federal Reserve System? Banks always charge the highest interest rate they can, simply because they want to make as much money as they can. This is determined by market forces, such as supply and demand.


You would do better if you kept in mind that these forums are international. My country does not have a Federal Reserve; it has a central bank, which does keep inflation in check by raising interest rates:

"The central bank’s main way of keeping inflation in check is by hiking its benchmark lending rate. The best way to jump-start a stagnant economy is by making it cheaper to borrow money – a stimulative move. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/economy/

This isn't necessarily strictly a Canadian thing, as hiking interest rates is a common tool used to control inflation in countries around the world:

http://www.tutor2u.net/economics/content/topics/inflation/controlling_inflation.htm

Whatever way you look at it, you'd do better to scratch a lottery ticket than to expect inflation to outstrip interest rates, as the scenario you present is extremely unlikely to occur.

I don't mind hypothetical examples, but it usually helps when your examples reflect real world numbers. :rolleyes: My example isn't all that outrageous. Like I said, the US did experience double digit inflation as recently as 30 years ago. Even now, inflaion rates are high enough to eat up the interest rates paid by banks for most savings accounts. Thsi is one reason savings are so low, actually negative, in this country.

You would do better if you kept in mind that these forums are international. My country does not have a Federal Reserve; it has a central bank, which does keep inflation in check by raising interest rates:

"The central bank’s main way of keeping inflation in check is by hiking its benchmark lending rate. The best way to jump-start a stagnant economy is by making it cheaper to borrow money – a stimulative move. "
I didn't know you were Canadian, and that explains why you don't know that the Federal Reserve I mentioned is the central bank of the US. However, in your post you said "the banks use higher interest rates to keep the inflation rate in check," not the central banks, and that is inaccurate for the reasons I mentioned.


Whatever way you look at it, you'd do better to scratch a lottery ticket than to expect inflation to outstrip interest rates, as the scenario you present is extremely unlikely to occur.I don't know why you think this. Historically, inflation is very common. High inflation is like a category 5 hurricane, rare but inevitable if you wait around New Orleans long enough.

Anyway, to get back on topic, somebody with a college degree will be better able to weather inflationary periods than somebody without a degree, much as more affluent people were better able to weather hurricane Katrina.

Another irony is that our dependence on cars and foreign oil is one of the factors that make inflation more likely to occur. So you could say that being carfree is part of the solution to the problem of inflation.

Adulthood is overrated anyways.

Long live the immature! Now find me a giant remote control godzilla to terrorize the neghborhood kids with! :D

My example isn't all that outrageous. Like I said, the US did experience double digit inflation as recently as 30 years ago. Even now, inflaion rates are high enough to eat up the interest rates paid by banks for most savings accounts. Thsi is one reason savings are so low, actually negative, in this country.

Since 2000, the highest average annual inflation rate the U.S. experienced was 3.39% last year; the average since 2000 has been 2.69%. Thus, the reason why savings are low doesn't have as much to do with inflation being unreasonably high, but rather because lending rates have been kept low in order to stimulate the economy.

Source: http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/CurrentInflation.asp

Even in the hyperinflation years around 30 years ago, 1980 was the worst at 13.58% - still a long way off from 20%! You barely broke 4% twice since then, and with lending rates as low as they are, it's doubtful that the US economy could manage to get anywhere near double digit inflationary numbers.

Finally, when studying historical data at the source above, we see that double-digit inflation happens rarely, and can even be surrounded by years of deflation!


I didn't know you were Canadian, and that explains why you don't know that the Federal Reserve I mentioned is the central bank of the US. However, in your post you said "the banks use higher interest rates to keep the inflation rate in check," not the central banks, and that is inaccurate for the reasons I mentioned.

The central bank of Canada dictates the prime lending rate, which is what all banks base their lending rates on; as such, the banks do use higher interest rates to keep the inflation rate in check. Incidently, a student loan is typically 2.5% above prime.


I don't know why you think this. Historically, inflation is very common. High inflation is like a category 5 hurricane, rare but inevitable if you wait around New Orleans long enough.

Except for the fact that most countries these days are able to take measures, such as raising or lowering interest rates, to keep inflation in check. We still have yet to develop a method to control the weather.


Anyway, to get back on topic, somebody with a college degree will be better able to weather inflationary periods than somebody without a degree, much as more affluent people were better able to weather hurricane Katrina.

Again, this would depend entirely on what that person studied. After 2001, a graduate who studied computer programming would have had a much harder time finding work than someone who did manual labour in the construction industry. Someone studying to get their B.A. would be lucky to land a job driving a school bus today.


Another irony is that our dependence on cars and foreign oil is one of the factors that make inflation more likely to occur. So you could say that being carfree is part of the solution to the problem of inflation.

Although one could argue that by buying a domestically-made fuel-efficient automobile, what they contribue to the economy in terms of jobs is greater than what they could do to help stave off inflation by not owning a car at all.

Although one could argue that by buying a domestically-made fuel-efficient automobile, what they contribue to the economy in terms of jobs is greater than what they could do to help stave off inflation by not owning a car at all.

Although if we wanted to contribute to the economy we could also have people spend big bucks on education... :)

A few have commented on the sense of freedom they felt after owning a car, and also about how different peoples' values are equal.

I definitely support the idea that ethics is a discussion about relativism.

However, is it any WONDER that kids, or anyone, have values that give them a sense of freedom upon buying a car? Where did this value come from? It certainly did not fall out of the sky. How many movies picture hip teens acquiring vehicles? How many car advertisements in America (and damnit, some in Sweden too) picture big SUVS tearing up some idyllic alpine trail? How many people's friends talked about how awesome their older sibling felt when they got their first car?

I'm not saying it is bad to associate motorized vehicles with freedom, but there is nothing about cars themselves that frees an individual. A personal outlook frees an individual. (How many people hop on a motorcycle for some sort of intense Jack Kerouac lifestyle? Nah, they are still living the same way they did before they got the motorcycle.)

In this context, associating cars with freedom is basically requires no extra intellectuall effort on the part of the individual. Congratulations, you think exactly like you are supposed to think.

With freethinking as a measure, we certainly are not out of bounds saying that the OP's co-worker/family member's values are less respectable. This is *not* mean contemptable, and is just one measure of respect. But I personally have absolutely no respect for values that are essentially produced by total inculcation. A person's ethics should result through internal debate, rumination, observation, experience, and effort.

I like these forums so much because people do give car-free lifestyle some honest evaluation, instead of either blindly rejecting it or accepting it. Always have to think about how certain ideas fit in with your own lifestyle. I commend anyone who has rejected car-free lifestyle out of consideration and trial, as much as I commend anyone who has said, "F-this apparently car-centric world. I can do better."

My bike is my freedom.

Man, I hate having to take the bus and be there exactly on time or I have to wait another 30mins to an hour for the next one. Oh, and no quick stops anywhere on the way home or I have to pay again (well, I can ge a transfer and take a different bus in another direction, get a transfer and get onto the original bus...) Oh, and if I take the bus I have to wake up 15 minutes earlier... and stand around in the cold instead of being nice and warm with 15 mins extra sleep on my bike.

Car? I guess that is why I am looking into touring (cheaper than a car) for longer trips.

A few have commented on the sense of freedom they felt after owning a car, and also about how different peoples' values are equal.

I definitely support the idea that ethics is a discussion about relativism.

However, is it any WONDER that kids, or anyone, have values that give them a sense of freedom upon buying a car? Where did this value come from? It certainly did not fall out of the sky. How many movies picture hip teens acquiring vehicles? How many car advertisements in America (and damnit, some in Sweden too) picture big SUVS tearing up some idyllic alpine trail? How many people's friends talked about how awesome their older sibling felt when they got their first car?

I'm not saying it is bad to associate motorized vehicles with freedom, but there is nothing about cars themselves that frees an individual. A personal outlook frees an individual. (How many people hop on a motorcycle for some sort of intense Jack Kerouac lifestyle? Nah, they are still living the same way they did before they got the motorcycle.)

In this context, associating cars with freedom is basically requires no extra intellectuall effort on the part of the individual. Congratulations, you think exactly like you are supposed to think.

With freethinking as a measure, we certainly are not out of bounds saying that the OP's co-worker/family member's values are less respectable. This is *not* mean contemptable, and is just one measure of respect. But I personally have absolutely no respect for values that are essentially produced by total inculcation. A person's ethics should result through internal debate, rumination, observation, experience, and effort.

I like these forums so much because people do give car-free lifestyle some honest evaluation, instead of either blindly rejecting it or accepting it. Always have to think about how certain ideas fit in with your own lifestyle. I commend anyone who has rejected car-free lifestyle out of consideration and trial, as much as I commend anyone who has said, "F-this apparently car-centric world. I can do better."
Perhaps you are right about the sense of freedom.

For me, I believed my sense of freedom stemmed from my new ability to go wherever I liked, whenever I liked, without needing anyone else's help. I grew up in a town without public transportation, separated from surrounding towns and cities by miles and miles of bike-unfriendly roads. Before I bought my car, my world was something like 10 square miles. If I could get a ride with someone, going to a nearby city say, my world grew temporarily bigger.

With the car, I could decide to travel 50 miles to Charlotte and then be there, all within an hour, all on my own. My world was now hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of square miles. Looking back, I realize the sense of freedom was a product of car-centric design. As you say, I believed and felt what I was conditioned to believe and feel. Today, I recognize the shallowness in this, but at the time it seemed as if my horizons had expanded to near infinity.

The next time I felt such a sensation of freedom was at university a couple of years later -- when, ironically, I was once again carfree. :)

The car has been a rite of passage in the US for many years. Getting a car is th first time many escape their parents' watchful eyes. Many Americans had their first sexual experiences in cars. A great movie that illustrates this is "American Graffiti." Carfree parents need to watch this movie again.

I think it will be a long time before the auto is replaced as this symbol of freedom. In fact, the car is more than a symbol, it is freedom for most American kids.

I'm so happy that we have teenagers and college age adults who post here. This really does give me hope for the future.

I wonder what symbol could ever replace the automobile in American teen culture?

motorbikes?

what a waste of 7K. she will be repaying it forever. She could have bought a bike.

factor in gas, insurance, repairs, and upkeep and this comes out to one big headache.

a responsible person? It's not responsible to owe 7,000 at age 18 IMO

Yeah, but how many people can say they didn't buy a car when they were 16-18. I'm showing my age, but in the early '70s, I can't think of one friend of mine who didn't have a car by the time they were 18.

Umm, me and plenty of people I know.