Advocacy & Safety - Those iPODS are killers (apparently)

just saw this on Yahoo (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/13022006/356/lawyer-killed-couldn-t-hear-lorry.html)


Cyclists have been told not to listen to iPods or personal stereos on the roads after a legal student was killed by a lorry.

Patricia McMillan was knocked from her bike and thrown under the truck's wheels near her home in Acton, west London.

The 32-year-old law student had been on the way to her part-time job as a waitress in Kensington when the crash happened on February 2.

Miss McMillan's best friend, Jacques Poullard said she could still be alive if she hadn't been listening to the iPod.

He said: "She was obsessed by that thing. It wasn't that she was careless. I bought her the bike three years ago and it was how she travelled everywhere.

"I never said anything to her about wearing the iPod but now I think if she hadn't had it on she might have heard the lorry.

"I hope people will think twice about cycling while wearing headphones."

Australian-born Miss McMillan had lived in the UK for 10 years, and was hoping to work as a human rights lawyer.

A Metropolitan Police spokeswoman said Miss McMillan had died from multiple injuries.

This might just be me, but I regard this as a "no *****" issue. Every bicycle advocate of any stripe I have ever come across has recommended not listening to headphones while riding a bicycle. Headphones can't cause anything but trouble.

I guess deaf people should be prohibited from cycling in traffic too? :rolleyes:

You shoudn't rely on hearing in the first place.

You are absolutly right, IPODS ought to be avoided. ...........................I much prefer the little Creative Labs MP3player.

You are absolutly right, IPODS ought to be avoided. ...........................I much prefer the little Creative Labs MP3player.

damn right!!

I guess deaf people should be prohibited from cycling in traffic too? :rolleyes:

You shoudn't rely on hearing in the first place.

There's a huge difference between choosing no to listen to your environment, and not being able to! You should use all the senses you have available to you whenever you are in a potentially dangerous situation. You can't look everywhere at once, and hearing often alerts you to other vehicles in your general location that you should be paying attention to.

I am definitely of the camp that says "don't wear headphones when cycling". It's already too easy to get hurt, why increase the chance of it happening?!

I'm sure I heard the car that ran me over ... didn't make much difference in the result.

Maybe the truck driver had his ipod on.

jw

I'm sure I heard the car that ran me over ... didn't make much difference in the result.

Maybe the truck driver had his ipod on.

jw

Nobody said there are any guarantees in life! ;) Sometimes you can see trouble coming, and still not be able to do anything about it. But that doesn't invalidate the position that not wearing headphones improves your chances of hearing possible trouble when riding a bike in traffic, and perhaps being more able to avoid it.

Was the rider at fault? Using an MP3 player or not is irrelevant if you are run over by a truck. I don't think wearing headphones (esp. in traffic) is a particularly great idea, but this may be jumping too quickly to assign fault based on the opinion of an aggrieved friend.

Sad one way or the other.

I guess deaf people should be prohibited from cycling in traffic too? :rolleyes:

You shoudn't rely on hearing in the first place.

You seem to be forgetting that deaf people develop compensatory mechanisms where are people listing to PADs do not.

You shouldn't rely on any single sense when riding as such a system lacks redundancy. However, you shouldn't rule out a sense as a potential information source.

Killers , yeah so are guns, speed boats, jet skis, car stereos with tricky controls, cell phones, drano, marbles, water, etc......

It is how you use them that makes the big difference. You also should not ride your bike over 15 mph as the wind noise will interfere with your sense of hearing as well. Not to mention you should never ride in the rain because if you should happen to get a raindrop in your eye you could really have another one of your senses diminished. Deaf people should not ride at all as that would be certain death. People with Long hair should also not ride as it might get in their face in cross winds. Lets see, what other things can we think of to ban while we are chatting this up, hmmm, how about really skinny tires? Yeah you know those are an accident waiting to happen. Why not use a nice fat and dependable 32mm tire. Carbon Forks? Why not! I have heard those things fail catastrophically, why I must have heard at least 2 accounts from friends who heard it from friends that someone one of their friends knows scratched his face off on the pavement after one broke.

If you've ever used headphones while riding, you would know that it doesn't impede your hearing to any relevant degree.

It is true that the volume must be at a reasonable level in order to hear well, but this should be obvious.

Making the argument that headphones absolutely prevent bicycle riders from hearing traffic is both uninformed and, frankly, ludicrous.

bk

I ride with headphones all the time. In heavy traffic even. It's fine. Unless you have done it and speak from experience, I will dismiss all claims that it's dangerous as misinformed fear mongering.

I don't know what part of the common sense life lesson people seem to have missed. Riding in traffic with headphones on is great until something happens, and then people wonder what they could have done to avoid it...

Darwin's great theory in action, I suppose.

If you've ever used headphones while riding, you would know that it doesn't impede your hearing to any relevant degree.

It is true that the volume must be at a reasonable level in order to hear well, but this should be obvious.

Making the argument that headphones absolutely prevent bicycle riders from hearing traffic is both uninformed and, frankly, ludicrous.

bk

Exactly! Nowhere in this article does it state any proof she didn't hear the truck coming. Even if I crank my headphones to high I'll still here a freakin geo metro coming let alone a truck. When I hear vehicles coming I just hold my line and assume they won't hit me. If I got off the road every time I heard something I might as well be walking on the sidewalk. Finally, I never rely on my hearing when turning, changing lanes etc. If you do, then you're a helluva lot dumber than us iPod listeners.

I don't know what part of the common sense life lesson people seem to have missed. Riding in traffic with headphones on is great until something happens, and then people wonder what they could have done to avoid it...

Darwin's great theory in action, I suppose.

Misinformed fear-mongering.

I probably have close to 10k miles of city riding with headphones. Definitely at least 5k. The headphones have never caused so much as a close call. What is happening here is that a cyclist was hit by a truck. She may or may not have been riding safely. (non headphone wearing cyclists are hit all the time) Without having any evidence what the cause of the collision was, everyone points out the incident as further evidence that it is dangerous to wear headphones while cycling. It's a single anecdote, not even a data point.

Well, every day I ride with headphones without getting hit, I have similar anecdotes to the contrary.

Myths:

Headphones prevent you from hearing traffic. I can hear plenty of traffic sounds while wearing my headphones. However, I'm not sure it does much good...
Not wearing headphones allows you to hear traffic. The wind noise caused > 25mph is much louder than anything I hear in my headphones. At these speeds, traffic noise is overwhelmed by wind noise. Why do you never hear headphone opponents rallying against downhill cycling?
You could hear a car coming behind you and get out of the way. When riding in the city, I encounter dozens of cars per minute. Most of the ones that pass me stay at least a couple of feet away, but the sound a car makes before it hits you is pretty similar to the sound a car makes when it is about to pass you. I don't know of anyone that can differentiate between the two. If it was possible to tell the difference, you probably wouldn't have time to do anything anyway in an urban area. In a rural area with lighter traffic, when you can hear each car individually, you might have a point, but all my headphone riding is done in the city.


Most of the anecdotes I've heard about ill-fated headphone-wearing cyclists involve scenarios that don't seem to be related to the fact that the cyclist was wearing headphones. Cyclists are involved in collisions every day. Some are wearing headphones. Some are not. Sometimes the cyclist is at fault. Sometimes not. But simply wearing headphones does not necessarily make a rider less safe. Similarly, taking headphones off does not necessarily make a rider any more observant.

Misinformed fear-mongering.

Not wearing headphones allows you to hear traffic. The wind noise caused > 25mph is much louder than anything I hear in my headphones. At these speeds, traffic noise is overwhelmed by wind noise. Why do you never hear headphone opponents rallying against downhill cycling?


If you can't hear a car coming from behind when riding at 25MPH you have a real problem. Wind noise is not all that significant at that speed.

What about the advent of electric/hybrid cars? Can't hear those at all.

Hearing should never be used as a primary sense when cycling. Period.

That being said, the major danger I see from listening while cycling is not the inability to hear cars, but the distraction it can cause. If you can listen to music and stay focused on your primary responsibilities as a cyclist, then there is no problem. Same goes for chewing gum.

[B] but the sound a car makes before it hits you is pretty similar to the sound a car makes when it is about to pass you. I don't know of anyone that can differentiate between the two. If it was possible to tell the difference, you probably wouldn't have time to do anything anyway in an urban area. In a rural area with lighter traffic, when you can hear each car individually, you might have a point, but all my headphone riding is done in the city.
[/list]



I am not trying to convince you of a differing argument. However, I tend to coordinate my auditory input with a glance in my mirror. Though, thankfully yet to experience both, I imagine the sight of a vehicle about to hit me would differ somewhat from one about to pass.

I don't know what part of the common sense life lesson people seem to have missed. Riding in traffic with headphones on is great until something happens, and then people wonder what they could have done to avoid it...

Darwin's great theory in action, I suppose.

Sorry, but you're not convincing anyone. There are countless things that could be done to avoid even the most straightforward accident.

I'll bold this next part, since most people on this forum seem to be misguided about it.

The only constructive analysis of a cycling accident is that which results in BOTH of the following conditions:

a) a very likely causal connection between the action in question, i.e., riding with headphones, and the resulting accident

and

b) advice which, having been shown to the community, could help prevent future accidents.

Dogmatic arguments, whether they are based upon vague, theoretical vehicular concepts, or uninformed rule-of-thumb hearing measurement, are absolutely useless, and don't contribute a single whit to the community.

Riding with headphones does not affect one's hearing to any reasonable degree. With the obvious exception of those who have the volume way too high, and those who can't concentrate on any other task when listening to music, a cyclist is not taking on any extra danger when riding with headphones on.

It's very interesting that some of those involved in this debate will not even consider evidence that goes against what they "figure" to be correct.

Hearing should never be used as a primary sense when cycling. Period.

You shoudn't rely on hearing in the first place.
I'm curious to know just who exactly is suggesting that we navigate primarily by hearing or that we should rely on hearing. Common sense indicates that hearing is a great asset when driving in traffic but I don't think anyone here or anywhere else is suggesting we should cycle with our eyes closed.

On the other hand, if you've tried riding with headphones with the volume at a reasonable level and find no problem hearing traffic, then I would never tell you that you are doing anything wrong.

Let common sense dictate.

Jalopy

I'm not here to convince anyone either way as I know it's not going to work. My general opinion is that if your actions don't screw around with me then I'm not concerned. Wear your damn headphones or not. Just shut up about it.

Those that wear them will always wear them and see no problem with it.
Those that don't wear them never will and see many problems with it.

Neither side is going to win. Move along.

man I love A&S. The same arguments all the time. Keep it coming

I think we should start a using headphones in the bikelane discussion. :)

I am a partially deaf cyclist. I have no hearing in one ear and partial (about 60%) in the other. I am bewildered why anyone would want to limit their hearing when riding a bike, just as I am bewildered by folks talking on cells when driving (or for that matter riding a bike, which I've seen several times now). I won't further limit my (pitifull) hearing.

I've been this way since birth, however, so I have no idea what it is like to hear properly. Perhaps it is different for the rest of you.

The last bike accident I had was when I was eleven, BTW-- hit head on by a car that veered into the wrong lane (ie, into the southbound lane while going north). (edit) I've had a couple wipe outs, but they had nothing to do with my hearing... nor did the head on collision, for that matter. (end edit)

I have contemplated getting a shirt and printing "DEAF CYCLIST" on the back in big block letters (maybe reflective) and watching how motorists react.

I ride with headphones all the time. In heavy traffic even. It's fine.
The gene-pool will miss you. ;)

You are absolutly right, IPODS ought to be avoided. ...........................I much prefer the little Creative Labs MP3player.

I prefer my Phillips CD player that plays .mp3 format. Mainlybecause it is cheaper and I'm used to it. As far as the OP maybe if the victim didn't get hit by a bus she wouldn't have been killed.

Somebody let me know when the Safety Nannies have any facts, not suppositions nor hysterical conjuring to substantiate their no-poop ranting on this subject.

The gene-pool will miss you. ;)

No, it won't. :D

I think Poguemahone (I won't, by the way ;) ) said it best. Why would you deliberately do something that reduces your chances of avoiding trouble? It goes against common sense to say that it makes no difference to "blind" one of your senses in a fast-moving, complex enviroment where you are one of the most vulnerable people around. I've had enough close calls to know that the difference between a hit and a near-miss is often a second or less. Anything that cuts into that response time is probably best avoided.

Of course, if the point of the headphones is just to attempt to appear cool, then go for it. Just don't whine if you get caught out (yeah, like that'll not happen).

Why would you deliberately do something that reduces your chances of avoiding trouble?
Have you taken the trainer wheels off your tricycle yet? If so, how do you justify increasing your risks of falling off your bike? Are you wearing a mouth piece and full face shield at all times as well as protective cup, knee and elbow pads too? No? Why not,you reckless and foolish risk taker? In fact, what are you doing on a bicycle at all? Why not stay in front of your TV and reduce all chance of anything happening to you while on a bicycle?

Have you taken the trainer wheels off your tricycle yet? If so, how do you justify increasing your risks of falling off your bike? Are you wearing a mouth piece and full face shield at all times as well as protective cup, knee and elbow pads too? No? Why not,you reckless and foolish risk taker? In fact, what are you doing on a bicycle at all? Why not stay in front of your TV and reduce all chance of anything happening to you while on a bicycle?

Aww, did I upset you? Attacking the messenger instead of the message is an old one. It doesn't look good though. Do you have anything to discuss, or is this the best you can do? :rolleyes:

I guess deaf people should be prohibited from cycling in traffic too? :rolleyes:

You shoudn't rely on hearing in the first place.

I don't think it's a matter of hearing as much as it's a matter of a distraction. Anything that has the possibility of gaining your attention away from that big truck behind you is not good. Sure you can "hear" things but are you "aware" of things. Ever see a kid watch a cartoon on TV. You can yell to your blue and the kid's attention remains on the screen. Does he hear you? Yes. Is his attention on you? No.

Listening to music... can you hear the truck behind you? Yes Is your full attention on that truck behind you? ehhhh ... ?

I think it's about where our attention is ... not where our hearing is.

Good Luck,
d.tipton

Aww, did I upset you? Attacking the messenger instead of the message is an old one. It doesn't look good though. Do you have anything to discuss, or is this the best you can do? :rolleyes:
Yes Mr. Smart Donkey: do you have any facts to back your assertions about the increased risk of music players while cycling or are you just braying in the wind because it feels good and that's what Safety Donkeys do best?

I don't think it's a matter of hearing as much as it's a matter of a distraction. Anything that has the possibility of gaining your attention away from that big truck behind you is not good. Sure you can "hear" things but are you "aware" of things. Ever see a kid watch a cartoon on TV. You can yell to your blue and the kid's attention remains on the screen. Does he hear you? Yes. Is his attention on you? No.

Listening to music... can you hear the truck behind you? Yes Is your full attention on that truck behind you? ehhhh ... ?

I think it's about where our attention is ... not where our hearing is.

Good Luck,
d.tipton

Well said.

Yes Mr. Smart Donkey: do you have any facts to back your assertions about the increased risk of music players while cycling or are you just braying in the wind because it feels good and that's what Safety Donkeys do best?

"Smart Donkey"? :rolleyes: Just think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that riding in traffic with reduced ability to sense your surroundings makes no difference? Would you ride with blinders on?

iPods and their ilk are the undoing of society.

iPods and their ilk are the undoing of society.

LOL. I've got an iPod and it's fantastic, so there! I use it when I'm walking to/from work. Best piece of technology I've bought in years.

;)

I am consistently amazed by how worked up people get in the advocacy and safety forum. I don't want to weigh in too heavily on the ipod debate, but I think that it again is worth repeating that the poor woman was hit by a truck. That seems the bigger problem than earphones or no.

The problem w/ people w/ ipods is that they walk around oblivious to the world--they are classic obliviots. They turn up the volume so high that they cannot hear anyone or anything else. I dont know how many times i've come up on a group of people walking 3-4 abrest all wearing ipods or some doof in the middle of a path w/ an ipod---clikcing your brake levers,. using a bell or screaming "on your left" at the top of your lungs is completely futile b/c they cannot hear anything other than the music. In other worlds, cyclists who are trying to be responsible and follow appropriate etique are prevented form doing so because the ipod obliviots cant hear them. Granted pedestrian have the right of way, but what are you to do when there is a whiole group walking 3-4 abrest--all w/ ipods--you cant pass, you cant get their attention. To me, its asking for an accident. I see walking/rollerblading/biking w/ an ipod to be no difference than driving a car with headphones plugged in. If a cop caught you doing that, you could be cited for inattentive driving

Keep the ipods at the gym. Or, at the very least, dont use a busy multiuse path that is used by walkers, roller bladers and cyclists when you cant hear anything!!!!!!!

The problem w/ people w/ ipods is that they walk around oblivious to the world--they are classic obliviots. They turn up the volume so high that they cannot hear anyone or anything else. I dont know how many times i've come up on a group of people walking ....
Not just walkers and runners. Four times last year I was nearly creamed by cyclists plugged into their Ipods.
Twice I was trying to pass a slower bike which suddenly swerved into my path after I rang my bell and called out "PASSING" and twice another bike riding on my side of the path nearly did me a head-on.

As Tippy said, it's the distraction, not the lack of hearing.


And in some place, like here in Virginia, it's also a legal issue. Riding a bicycle with headphones or ear-buds in both ears is against the law.

Wind noise can be reduced by turning your head.

Turning your head won't reduce the ipod.

Catastrophe's usually happen when a string of small, insignificant things happen at the same time, it's the sum of all the little things that cause the failure. With this in mind, I'll avoid any thing that will reduce my awareness in any way while riding.

But hey, that's me.

jw
(hey, where's the spell checker on here?)

ipods suck... seriously...

I use my XM Satellite Radio regularly, using only one earphone in my right ear. I keep it on low, and I can hear oncoming traffic no problem. I rely on hearing and my rear view mirror. On a two lane road, when I hear a car overtaking me and he doesn't slow down, I know I may have a problem and I check my rear view mirror. I like to listen to rap music on XM. It's better than a syncopator.

"Smart Donkey"? :rolleyes: Just think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that riding in traffic with reduced ability to sense your surroundings makes no difference? Would you ride with blinders on?
As I suspected no facts, just conjuring. The question isn't blinders, or reduction in visual ability. Come back when you can back up your guesswork with something other than rhetoric or rhetorical questions.

As I suspected no facts, just conjuring. The question isn't blinders, or reduction in visual ability. Come back when you can back up your guesswork with something other than rhetoric or rhetorical questions.

No guesswork, common sense. The question was not rhetorical, answer it.

ipods suck... seriously...

Good point. Thanks for your contribution.

Counterpoint: Ipods don't suck. Seriously.

Although I usually don't ride with headphones, I tend to wonder...was the rider wearing a reflective vest? Did she have lights on her bike? Who was in the wrong? What other factors may have contributed to the accident? It's all to easy to point at one thing like her iPod and play the blame game, but dead people can't talk so real detectives ought to consider all the facts before jumping to conclusions. It's been my experience that, when it comes to bikes and big trucks, the problem has more to do with the fact that the driver of the truck doesn't see or notice the cyclist.

Instead of banning headphone use, why not require bicycles to have working lights (headlight and tailight) when used on the road? Motorcycles need it for safety reasons that have been proven, and LED technology would make this feasable.

"Smart Donkey"? :rolleyes: Just think for a moment. Do you honestly believe that riding in traffic with reduced ability to sense your surroundings makes no difference?
I can field this one. It depends on how your ability to sense your surroundings is reduced. For example, I've have never once encountered a scenario in which a smell us practically useful to me while riding a bike. Thus, I'd have no problem reducing my ability to smell my surroundings. Similarly, in the city, to the extent that headphones reduce my perception, they do not cause a problem while biking.


Would you ride with blinders on?
No. I rely on my peripheral vision too much to do that.

For example, I've have never once encountered a scenario in which a smell us practically useful to me while riding a bike. Thus, I'd have no problem reducing my ability to smell my surroundings.

It's also probably not a good idea to rely on your sense of taste to any extent while riding a bike...talk about redefining the term, "Eat asphault." ;)

I ride with headphones. I listen typically to NPR or books on tape. This winter I have been using only one earphone since my daughter gave me her old pair with one ear not working. Even when listening with both ears, I keep the volume to the point where I can just comfortably follow the words being spoken.

I can still easily hear cars 1/2 mile away or more. My route is rolling hills, and I can always hear a car before it's visible over the hill behind me, WITH headphones in and playing.

As has been said, everything is dangerous if you use it stupidly. And almost anything can be safe if used with some sense.

Sometimes I get the impression that people like to blame things that are within their control- that way the world seems safer.

So just switching off our ipods and getting ready to dodge out of the way of big trucks will perhaps not be enough to keep us safe after all. :(