Touring - Loaded touring wheels...

I'm trying to price a full build on a LHT for a trip across the US. I have an avid cycling past but not much experience with choosing touring equipment. What sort of wheels are good - anyone have good combinations that worked well for them? High spoke count is about all I know - what type of hubs, rims... thanks ! David

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile_combo.cfm?SKU=18471&estore_ID=&subcategory_ID=&CFID=21024997&CFTOKEN=74884464

You want a beefy rim over 500 grams. You want beefy hubs. LX or XT are beefy, but Shimano road hubs wil take more abuse than you'd think. 14 straight gauge spokes, 36 of them, brass nipples.

Oh, you didn't mention if your LHT had 26" or 700c, which is it?

XT hubs and either a Mavic EX721 or a Sun Rhyno are a tough and affordable combination for 26". Not exactly light rims, but will take you just about anywhere.

For 700c XT hubs and Sun Rhyno Lite.

36 spokes front and rear is more than enough.

Nice Rudge avatar, Love that chainring, I wish companies still put logos in their chainrings
On topic, I looked into some touring wheels a while ago and chose White Industries Racer X
hubs and Velocity Dyad rims. Not the cheapest combination, but I hope they'll last a long time.
For more touring wheel ideas check out.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

I have used Coda, Alex Adventurer, and Sun CR18 rims with Coda, Shimano LX, and Shimano XT hubs (respectively) for touring. All were built into 36 spoke, 3x wheels using 14 gauge spokes. All of them worked just fine.

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile_combo.cfm?SKU=18471&estore_ID=&subcategory_ID=&CFID=21024997&CFTOKEN=74884464

. . . 14 straight gauge spokes . . .
Gotta disagree here. 14/15/14 gauge spokes will hold up better. The swagging moves a bit of the spoke-stretching and compressing forces from the bend at the hub-hole (where almost all spoke failures occur) to the middle of the spoke (where virtually no spoke failures occur), enough to make a difference in longevity.

I do agree that 36 spokes should be plenty strong enough. Also, your choice of MTB hubs (e.g.,. LX or DX) vs. road bike hubs (e.g., 105, Veloce) will best be determined by the spread of the rear droputs of your touring frame: 135mm spread = MTB hubs; 130mm spread = 8- or 9-speed road hubs (personally, I wouldn't tour on a 10-speed cassette - I don't trust the narrow chains plus too much dish on the rear wheel);126mm spread = 7-speed road hub; 120mm spread = 5- or 6-speed road hub.

Also, do not forget to have spare spokes (all needed lengths - you will have at least two, maybe three), a spoke wrench, a way to get your cassette off, and knowlege of at least the rudiments of wheel truing so that you can at least fix a busted spoke well enough to get you to a good LBS.

I am rocking some Sun Rhyno Lite rims with XT hubs, 36 spokes 14 gauage, 3x in front, 4x in back. I chose those wheels because I am fat and one day at work (lbs) a flyer came in the mail with xt hubs on sale and sun rims on sale so I said why not! They replaced the stock rims on my aurora, alex rims with Ritchey zero hubs (they really do reduce dish and make the wheel stronger), 36 spokes 3x in front 4x in back. Those wheels are just taking up space in my garage if youre interested.

I am running a pair of shimano LX hubs laced to Mavic A719 rims (36 spoke) that I bought from performance bike. They are good wheels that were around $200 on sale about a year ago. My next set of wheels will be custom built by Peter White. I am thinking about Phil Wood hubs and Mavic A719 rims. I am going to go with 40 in the rear, and 36 up front. Some may say that a 40 spoke wheel is overkill and the rotational weight is greater..blah, blah blah: the extra 4 spokes weigh no more than a couple of bites of a Power Bar; the addtional strenght is well worth it.

This is a good set of wheels that are being sold on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Hand-Built-XT-Mavic-A719-36-Spoke-Wheels-Wheelset_W0QQitemZ7218880031QQcategoryZ58098QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I put my faith in 48 spoke Phil Wood hubs with Mavic T719 rims for our next big trip. I rode around the world on 48 spoke Alesa rims with Maxicar hubs, had to true my wheels once halfway. Never broke a spoke (knock on wood). Sure they are heavier then 36 spokes, but who is counting on a long biketrip.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I believe I'll go with the XT hubs and some 36 hold mavics with 14-guage spokes. I'd love to go with the phil woods - but price is (as always) an issue. Thanks again ~ David

Gotta disagree here. 14/15/14 gauge spokes will hold up better. The swagging moves a bit of the spoke-stretching and compressing forces from the bend at the hub-hole (where almost all spoke failures occur) to the middle of the spoke (where virtually no spoke failures occur), enough to make a difference in longevity.

I do agree that 36 spokes should be plenty strong enough. Also, your choice of MTB hubs (e.g.,. LX or DX) vs. road bike hubs (e.g., 105, Veloce) will best be determined by the spread of the rear droputs of your touring frame: 135mm spread = MTB hubs; 130mm spread = 8- or 9-speed road hubs (personally, I wouldn't tour on a 10-speed cassette - I don't trust the narrow chains plus too much dish on the rear wheel);126mm spread = 7-speed road hub; 120mm spread = 5- or 6-speed road hub.

Also, do not forget to have spare spokes (all needed lengths - you will have at least two, maybe three), a spoke wrench, a way to get your cassette off, and knowlege of at least the rudiments of wheel truing so that you can at least fix a busted spoke well enough to get you to a good LBS.


You know, I agree with you about the spokes, but a lot of guys don't.
Maybe I'll try that with my next wheels. I thought about mentioning dropout spacing, but I figured I'd cover that when he told us which wheel size he was using. 10 speed, blecch. I have been meaning to get one of those kevlar spoke splints.

Here is a wheel set that will handle the load and perform great, Rolf Vigor Tandem. It dosen't get much better than this http://www.rolfprima.com/products/vigor_tandem.html

Here is a wheel set that will handle the load and perform great, Rolf Vigor Tandem. It dosen't get much better than this http://www.rolfprima.com/products/vigor_tandem.html

Not knocking the Rolf's, but low spoke count wheels are probably not an optimal choice for a touring cyclist.

If one were to damage or break a spoke (ie from bad baggage handling, a crash, or a "stick in the wheel"), it would be incredibly difficult to keep the wheel true with a roadside repair. I'd think anyways.

I've used a Mavic A319 wheelset (700C) with Deore hubs and 36 14-ga. spokes that have been fine for loading touring (~90 lbs. + me). They were suprisingly cheap too, about $199.99 Canadian for the set.

I've used a Mavic A319 wheelset with Deore hubs and 36 14-ga. spokes that have been fine for loading touring (~90 lbs. + me). They were suprisingly cheap too, about $199.99 Canadian for the set.

Or A719 rims for 700c size...

Don't skimp on your spokes.

The only reason I know of to use straight gauge spokes is price. Two experienced and observant wheelbuilders, Jobst Brandt and Peter White, prefer butted spokes. Look at wheelbuilders' websites for further direction on this.

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes
excerpt from Sheldon Brown's instructions for wheelbuilding:

"Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic. This allows them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke hole.

# Triple-butted spokes, such as the DT Alpine III, are the best choice when durability and reliability is the primary aim, as with tandems and bicycles for loaded touring. They share the advantages of single-butted and double-butted spokes. The DT Alpine III, for instance, is 2.34mm (13 gauge) at the head, 1.8mm (15 gauge) in the middle, and 2.0mm (14 gauge) at the threaded end.

Single- and triple-butted spokes solve one of the great problems of wheel design: Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough to fit the threads through, the holes, in turn are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage."

Not knocking the Rolf's, but low spoke count wheels are probably not an optimal choice for a touring cyclist.

If one were to damage or break a spoke (ie from bad baggage handling, a crash, or a "stick in the wheel"), it would be incredibly difficult to keep the wheel true with a roadside repair. I'd think anyways.
This is a tandem wheel set with oval stainless spokes, your chances of problems with an extra 50 lbs of gear is very remote, this is the lightest, strongest set going. Probably overkill for this forum, oh well.

I ordered my xt/719 rims through quality and they according to the shop, they were spot on and didn't require any tensioning or truing out of the box. I am 225 plus my gear and no problems. Quality does a great job and if you buy them at REI, you get 10 percent back.

That Rolf tandem wheel is for 145mm dropouts. The aero-section rim is going to be too harsh for touring. Boutique wheels may be strong and reliable but they are not as repairable as traditional spoked wheels and damage to one spoke will throw the wheel out of true.

You should take the experts advice and use butted spokes. Laymen often assume that more metal makes a structure stronger but engineers realise that structures fail at their weakest point not their strongest point. If you remove metal from the strongpint, you can transfer stress away from the weakpoint and enhance the structure as a whole.

Gotta disagree here. 14/15/14 gauge spokes will hold up better...

+1 on bikingshearer's advice. FYI, there are also 13/14/15/14 spokes available that are FAR superior for loaded touring. The 13 ga. spoke head reinforces the bend in the spoke where most spoke failures occur. You'll have to drill out your hubs for the larger spoke heads, but it should be worth it in reduced breakage and stress. I recently had Rev. Chuck build me some heavy-duty wheels with these spokes & I'm happy with them.

No one has mentioned Velocity rims. Very popular rim for the tandem folks. On my LHT, I use a 40 spoke Velocity "Dyad" rear 14/15 butted spokes laced 4/cross. 36/3cross on the front. Phil Woods high flange "touring" hubs. Bullet proof!

No one has mentioned Velocity rims. Very popular rim for the tandem folks. On my LHT, I use a 40 spoke Velocity "Dyad" rear 14/15 butted spokes laced 4/cross. 36/3cross on the front. Phil Woods high flange "touring" hubs. Bullet proof!

I have Velocity Dyads on my Tandem(40 spoke). With a tandem team of 400lbs, we have never had a problem with the wheels.

I have Velocity Dyads on my Tandem(40 spoke). With a tandem team of 400lbs, we have never had a problem with the wheels.

This is the wheel set that Co-Motion puts on the Americano single, no worries with this set up.
;)

+1 on bikingshearer's advice. FYI, there are also 13/14/15/14 spokes available that are FAR superior for loaded touring. The 13 ga. spoke head reinforces the bend in the spoke where most spoke failures occur. You'll have to drill out your hubs for the larger spoke heads, but it should be worth it in reduced breakage and stress. I recently had Rev. Chuck build me some heavy-duty wheels with these spokes & I'm happy with them.

I'd second the 2.3/1.8/2.0 spokes (DT Alpine III). The other reason they resist failure at the bend is that the spokes "fill" the spoke hole at the hub. This keeps them from moving around if a spoke loosens. I've been using them on a mountain bike under very harsh conditions from around 5 years now and haven't broken a spoke yet.

I used a kevlar spoke splint for the last 175 miles of a 600k brevet last year. Worked perfectly. Weighs practically nothing. Wished I had a couple of extras, figuring that spokes sometimes fail in groups of three.

I am rocking some Sun Rhyno Lite rims with XT hubs, 36 spokes 14 gauage, 3x in front, 4x in back. I chose those wheels because I am fat and one day at work (lbs) a flyer came in the mail with xt hubs on sale and sun rims on sale so I said why not! They replaced the stock rims on my aurora, alex rims with Ritchey zero hubs (they really do reduce dish and make the wheel stronger), 36 spokes 3x in front 4x in back. Those wheels are just taking up space in my garage if youre interested.
I don't suppose you (still) have those wheels,huh??

I have a LHT with 26" wheels. I use Mavic XM719 rims with 36 hole XT hub in the rear, and 32 hole SON dynamo hub in the front. DT Swiss double butted spokes on both. These have about 5000 mostly commuting miles on them with no issues whatsoever.

According to Sheldon, if you have the same number of spokes front and rear, either your front wheel is overbuilt, or your rear wheel is underbuilt.

Paul

14 ga seem fine , have for 25 years , DB spokes do cost more ,
if you got the bankroll , go for it.
Bring spares .. know how to replace them , and re true and tension the wheel.

I have some sport bike wheels 36 15 gage straight , they are 30 years old,
still in true..

Builder : me :innocent:

for cassette drive train and more than 36 spokes,
Shimano's tandem hubs would work, they ship as a 140 wide axle,
but you can swap parts to make it a 135.

I don't suppose you (still) have those wheels,huh??

I don't think you'll get an answer to that 5-year-old-post.

also, his last post was oct 2010....

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath..............

A bit of good news-I discovered a 20hole Ritchey Zero System sealed bearing hub in my hub box. I can drill 20 more holes, install the 4mm shortened non-drive spacer that I'd previously had machined, use a Velocity Dyad rim, and-VOILA!! 126mm, 10 speed, 40 spoke, freehub wheel exrtoidnaire!!
Now, to remove that freehub body and set up the drill press...........

Umm, a bit of a fly has worked its way into my ointment. If I drill the second set of holes as planned, it occurred to me that the new holes will be directly opposite the OEM holes in the opposite flange. That will eliminate the stagger between the holes in the flanges. Will this present a problem? Should I orient pulling spokes directly opposite each other? Or, should they be staggered by one hole? As this is a rear wheel, the stronger tension of the drive side spokes should take precedence over the non-drive side spokes, or so I would think. The spole lengths may need to be adjusted, but probably not even a full mm.
Any thoughts from the wheelbuilders out there?
Thanks.

equidistant holes all the way around the hub, you just start from scratch with a 40 spoke rim.

chamfering the hole edges of your inner faces of the flange to bed the j of the spoke will probably have to be by hand.
like i say shimano tandem hubs can work on a single, shorten axle, to suit.

I've read that the chamfering of the holes is about the bend in the spoke rather than seating the head,but I do plan on breaking the corners inside by hand.
As for the Shimano tandem hub, I've thought about those. However, I want the narrower spaced flanges of the Ritchey Zero System hub in order to reduce dish, especially since I'm using 126mm spacing. I'm really watching out for the DT manufactured Ritchey hi-lo flanged hub due to its larger diameter flanges; however, I have no experience machining down the non-drive spacer the -4mm required to suit my needs. I'll have to play that one by ear if I ever find the hub. I've seen the 24 hole version for sale, but not any 20 holers as of late.
I didn't think the lack of radial stagger would have any negative impact.
Thanks.

I've run a Phil Wood and then a Bullseye hub , freewheel, 126 , for decades,
48 14 Ga spokes.

It's trying to pack in cogs more than 7 that forces too much dish.. IMHO
no advantage of having 8, 9 0r 10.. touring.
spread of ratios matters more. 6 or 7 , 13-34 sufficient.

easy enough to turn out axle spacers on a Lathe..
But you can just Buy them too...various thicknesses 10 mm ID.

I have rim and hub on order for my primary loaded touring wheel, which is still gonna be a Phil Wood Touring hub spaced for IRD 7 speed freewheels. This moves the hub shell 2 or 3mm to the drive side, reducing dish. This is because the IRD supposedly has a lesser stack height than other 7 speed freewheels. I dunno. I have a couple of Shimano Sante 7 speed fw's that seem to be the same height. We'll see.
Anyyway, 36 14/15/14 DB spokes 4X onto a Velocity Cliffhanger 700c rim will complete the wheel. The dish will be +/- 5mm from center. As close to dishless as I could come for a 7 speed setup. This was recommended to me by Rivendell's wheelbuilding guru Rich.
I have a vintage Specialized 126mm fw hub that has narrower flange spacing than other fw hubs I've seen, but that pesky thought of axle breakage looms large, especially as I weigh 230# without bike and/or gear. That's part of my freehub rationale. (Hopefully the PW's are as good as they say...)
But, half of the attraction of cycling for me has always been playing with equipment.
As such, my quest for the perfect 126mm 8/9/10 speed freehub wheel continues.......
As for axle spacers, the latest Ritchey hubs have sealed bearings and no threaded axle. The non-drive axle spacer is (probably) aluminum and pressed onto the steel axle. That requires machining to shorten the dropout end, as the hub end has a flange to shield the bearing. I've done this on the earlier Ritchey sealed bearing units successfully.

I don't know about the perfect wheel...probably just multiple choices depending upon the use.

I ended up using a 9speed wheel built up more for tandem specifications. Phil Wood hub, 48 spokes, velocity dyad rim build from Peter White. 700c.

I was very heavily loaded, and probably started my tour weighing 200lbs +?60lbs gear. Never had any wheel problems, including riding for extended periods on 2nd/3rd world dirt/gravel.

-Now if I had a bottomless budget I would go with 26" rims and an internal gear hub, and perhaps a trailer because I did like to carry a bunch...

I have XT hubs, Mavic 719 36-spoke rims, and double-butted spokes. I've taken three tours without breaking a spoke, and I'm a pretty big guy. I built mine myself using Sheldon Brown's instructions. I bought some nice tools as part of the process, including a Park truing stand and a tensionmeter. I like having my own tools!

I'm presently building a "touring 29er" for the Great Divide route. I've bought XT hubs. I'm going to go with Mavic 719's again. I'm looking into the triple-butted spokes Stuart mentioned. The rear hub looks like there isn't much offset on the drive side. Is it worse because of the discs? I'm a little nervous.

I have XT hubs, Mavic 719 36-spoke rims, and double-butted spokes. I've taken three tours without breaking a spoke, and I'm a pretty big guy. I built mine myself using Sheldon Brown's instructions. I bought some nice tools as part of the process, including a Park truing stand and a tensionmeter. I like having my own tools!

I'm presently building a "touring 29er" for the Great Divide route. I've bought XT hubs. I'm going to go with Mavic 719's again. I'm looking into the triple-butted spokes Stuart mentioned. The rear hub looks like there isn't much offset on the drive side. Is it worse because of the discs? I'm a little nervous.

Yes, with 135 mm dropouts, you'll have still have a dished wheel. Here are two sources of silver Alpine III's:

http://www.precisiontandems.com/catframepart.htm
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/13-16-14g-dt-triple-butted-alpine-iii-stainless-steel-spoke-and-12-mm-brass-nipple-pack-of-6-prod1694/

For the GDMBR I chose the wider Sun Rhyno Lites and the White Industries M16 hub because of the consumer replaceable (with an Allen wrench) sealed cartridge bearings. I also have Alpine III's on this wheel.

On butted spokes. Most experts agree that they are better. The issue is whether you will end up with a wheel that fails if you don't use them, and for the most part that is a myth. Well made straight spoke wheels will take incredible abuse and some tourists even prefer them. If the best argument one can come up with is that butted spokes may absorb the shock of severe loads, that isn't really saying much. How often do you expect that a single spoke takes all the load.

The way I look at it is this. If you get a chance to get well made wheel with straight gauge spokes at the right price etc... Don't hesitate. If you are making a custom wheel use butted spokes, they are not all that much more expensive when you are buying single spokes by a top brand like Wheelsmith, and then you have the confidence of knowing you are riding the best, whether it will ever make a difference or not.

On butted spokes. Most experts agree that they are better. The issue is whether you will end up with a wheel that fails if you don't use them, and for the most part that is a myth. Well made straight spoke wheels will take incredible abuse and some tourists even prefer them. If the best argument one can come up with is that butted spokes may absorb the shock of severe loads, that isn't really saying much. How often do you expect that a single spoke takes all the load.

The way I look at it is this. If you get a chance to get well made wheel with straight gauge spokes at the right price etc... Don't hesitate. If you are making a custom wheel use butted spokes, they are not all that much more expensive when you are buying single spokes by a top brand like Wheelsmith, and then you have the confidence of knowing you are riding the best, whether it will ever make a difference or not.

I totally agree. I have never broken a straight gauge spoke. Ever. The only reason I went butted was because so many people are adamant about their superiority. The cost penalty was only about 50 cents a spoke, increasing the cost of my (rear) wheel about 5%. I did refrain, from going to more than 36 spokes, however. (36 spokes w/ 250lb rider + bike+ gear).

You never know when you'll have take that one hit that would have broken a "lesser" spoke.

I had some 36 H Velocity Dyad rims built with Ultegra hubs for my commuter/touring bike for about $350. They have held up well so far (2600 miles commuting) and are lighter than most other options for touring wheels. Weight was an important issue for me because the roads are hilly where I live.

When I drill the extra 20 holes in the Ritchey Zero hub I'll lace it to a 40 spoke Dyad. Hopefully that will fill the bill for the freehub style. Time'll tell (along with a few thousand miles...)

The proprietor of the LBS told me that a 32 spoke touring wheel should be fine for my 230# body + 25# boke + 50# (?) gear, as he bases his theory on the abuse he heaps on his 32 spoke mountain bike wheels. I'm not too sure.
I have purchased a new 32° Bontrager Fairlane rim that I'm going to lace to a 32° Ritchey Zero hub spaced for 126mm. This should render a totally symmetrical spoke configuration with the rim's 4mm offset. DB stainless spokes, but can only go 3X as the rule of the 9's indicate.
So, my hopes that a symmetrical wheel will render the radial strength to hold up. Once again, another opinion leads to more testing.....

I have been on this soap-box before but since you asked...

My expedition grade (Arvon-built) bike has 26", 48 spoked Rhyno Lite rims with PW hubs. They are 4X laced with 14 ga. spokes. Solid, and heavy. They are/were pretty well indestructable.

My Shimano RD lost a screw and the RD went into the rear wheel one night. I couldn't pedal any further and the next morning hitch hiked 700 km to Katherine NT (Australia) and the LBS there use my spare spokes to "fix" the wheel. There was hardly any wobble when the spokes were broken, but the RD was replaced. He said the wheel was in great shape, but it was hard to replace the spokes because of the 4X lacing...

Later on the Roper River road I was going along and all of a sudden the front wheel went almost 90 degrees to my motion because of a hidden rock in the bull dust. I fell down, but the front wheel was OK. No buckling... 48 spokes held it together - I think.

Enough said. Get the most spokes you can and don't worry about the extra $$ you spent. You will reap beneits in longevity and "security".... :p

I am now planning a lighter "folder" with a mini-velo design with 20" wheels and a 36 spoke Rohloff rear hub, but built for sustained touring. It will fit into one bag for easier air travel. Not better, just a differnt type of touring. :p

"The cost penalty was only about 50 cents a spoke, increasing the cost of my (rear) wheel about 5%. I did refrain, from going to more than 36 spokes, however. (36 spokes w/ 250lb rider + bike+ gear)."

I did the same thing. People act like buying straight spokes is some huge cheapout, when the price is pretty much the same. Certainly nothing that would change what I did.

"You never know when you'll have take that one hit that would have broken a "lesser" spoke."

It is mostly the rim you really have to worry about particularly these days. Quality of spokes is way up, quality of rims is down, at least for our stuff. It occurs to me that one guy, Beckmann who recommends straight spokes and claims huge experience, is a multi spoke plus guy. You go 48 spokes you are less loaded per spoke. On the one hand you have less load, on the other hand there is less give, the point comes when you aren't going to deflect the tapered bit because it is as stiff per load as the straight gauge would be at lessor numbers. But he has broken butted spokes to handling, baggage hooks, sticks, etc... So his overall recommendation is for straight gauge for 40 or 48.

"The proprietor of the LBS told me that a 32 spoke touring wheel should be fine for my 230# body + 25# boke + 50# (?) gear, as he bases his theory on the abuse he heaps on his 32 spoke mountain bike wheels. I'm not too sure."

That's bad advice, not to say you will have problems. Impact loads are completely different from fatigue situations. Also depends what rim size he is basing it on. 32 on 26" is 36 on 700c, 29er, 27". The real clincher is where is the upside? Usually the wheel weight is actually heavier as you go down in spoke numbers because the rim gets heavier for the same strength. But people have built 20 spoke wheels and toured extensively on them, but it doesn't make it the best choice.

I am running a pair of shimano LX hubs laced to Mavic A719 rims (36 spoke) that I bought from performance bike. They are good wheels that were around $200 on sale about a year ago. My next set of wheels will be custom built by Peter White. I am thinking about Phil Wood hubs and Mavic A719 rims. I am going to go with 40 in the rear, and 36 up front. Some may say that a 40 spoke wheel is overkill and the rotational weight is greater..blah, blah blah: the extra 4 spokes weigh no more than a couple of bites of a Power Bar; the addtional strenght is well worth it.



This is a good set of wheels that are being sold on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Hand-Built-XT-Mavic-A719-36-Spoke-Wheels-Wheelset_W0QQitemZ7218880031QQcategoryZ58098QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Just because Peter White builds you wheels doesn't mean that you may or may not have issues... I had a wheel built by Peter White that has been nothing special including the spokes I've managed to break. Now realize that I'm about 160 lbs and running maybe 40lbs of luggage. The wheels are Velocity Dyads with XT Hubs and Wheelsmith Double Butted spokes. I have yet to find a wheel I can't break though so YMMV. Doesn't matter if it's my touring bike or my race bike..... If i can't break it I'm not putting out enough watts. :)

Too true, you have to want the wheel to survive, and there are doubtless ways to beat nearly any wheel up. I try to be kind to my wheels, but I know there are some people who don't want to do anything to reduce the wear. It is part of the fun.

Peterpan1 Writes: "The real clincher is where is the upside?"

For various reasons I am still trying to build a reliable touring wheel based on a 8-10 speed freehub for 126mm OLN setup.
I am building an "Old Reliable" wheelset using 36 spoke PW hubs and Velocity Cliffhanger 700C rims, but still want to build the aforementioned freehub setup.
As I am building 2 or 3 touring bikes, I have need for multiple wheelsets anyway, and I have always been fascinated with equipment (especially doing things that are not common.) I'm just odd that way.