View Full Version : Car Free w/ Females in household?
oilfreeandhappy
02-16-06, 01:52 PM
I have a family of 4 licensed drivers. We have one car, which is usually with my wife or my daughter when she's home from College.
I cannot even consider getting rid of the car though, predominantly because I would fear for the safety of my wife and daughter at night. Even though we live in a relatively safe small college town, I'm just not comfortable with either of them cycling at night. And they aren't either.
Do others feel the same way? I'm also not comfortable with them walking to a bus stop at night - certainly not alone, and maybe not even with a friend.
If you're that concerned, give them a bottle of mace. Then invest in good headlights and taillights and reflective gear. Shoot, I ride at night and I'm female. I make it work.
It's all about stranger danger- someone's following you, you cut out of there. Someone attacks, and you retreat. If you get caught, it's all about the mace. And have 'em carry a cell phone in the event something goes wrong (in all likelihood, it won't).
Koffee
If you're that concerned, give them a bottle of mace. Then invest in good headlights and taillights and reflective gear. Shoot, I ride at night and I'm female. I make it work.
It's all about stranger danger- someone's following you, you cut out of there. Someone attacks, and you retreat. If you get caught, it's all about the mace. And have 'em carry a cell phone in the event something goes wrong (in all likelihood, it won't).
Koffee
Koffee...I'm disappointed in you! Your response was good from a cycling point of view, but not in the broader sociopolitical sphere. The real question is...shouldn't his wife and adult daughter be the ones to decide on this - not him?
I have a family of 4 licensed drivers. We have one car, which is usually with my wife or my daughter when she's home from College.
I cannot even consider getting rid of the car though, predominantly because I would fear for the safety of my wife and daughter at night. Even though we live in a relatively safe small college town, I'm just not comfortable with either of them cycling at night. And they aren't either.
Do others feel the same way? I'm also not comfortable with them walking to a bus stop at night - certainly not alone, and maybe not even with a friend.
You might be more at home in Iran, or someplace in Afghanistan still controlled by the taleban. Iranians and others who have lived there say Iranians don't let their women out without a male relative escort even during the day.
Koffee...I'm disappointed in you! Your response was good from a cycling point of view, but not in the broader sociopolitical sphere. The real question is...shouldn't his wife and adult daughter be the ones to decide on this - not him?
They've already decided- remember... they're afraid. So I'm just giving him the tools to encourage them to overcome the fear.
Koffee
For someone who lives in a 'safe college town' you seem really paranoid. You're afraid for your wife and daughter's safety going to the bus stop? If you live in a safe community, it is very, very unlikely that anything will happen to them at or walking to a bus stop.
You're concerns about bicycling at night seem more grounded in reality, but I've been car free for over 5 years now, and bike all times (including at night). If you are smart about it, it's reasonably safe. First and foremost, get flashing safety lights to improve visibility. Secondly, don't take major chances, and always assume the car doesn't see you right way. If you stay along the shoulder, you probably won't have any problems even if the car doesn't see you.
oilfreeandhappy
02-16-06, 05:51 PM
Thanks for the comments. All the comments are valid, and I agree that it is my wife and daughter's decision. I'll have them read this thread. I don't know if I could get my wife to carry mace, but it is a good idea. It's one of those things. The chances are remote, but if anything did happen, I'd never forgive myself.
Artkansas
02-16-06, 07:10 PM
The chances are remote, but if anything did happen, I'd never forgive myself.
Should they feel guilty if anything happened to you?
I don't get it. Why so worried? Are you that concerned that they are that weak, timid, and helpless? If so, there must really be something up with them.
Just wondering.
Koffee
Blackberry
02-16-06, 08:19 PM
oilfreeandhappy--I do understand your concerns. Much as I hate to admit it, anyone who even thinks of living car-free in the USA is, by societal standards, pretty much a freak. On the other hand, I don't think I would have the same level of fear as you do. Utimately, though, I'd listen to your family and yourself and not to me or anyone else on a message board.
Urbanmonk
02-16-06, 08:50 PM
Ah, the young zealots.
Oilfreeandhappy,
it's your family, and your's alone. I'd die for mine, and would do everything in my power to ensure that they were safe, regardless of age. Lifestyle is one thing, but in our zeal to promote and "live the life," we sometimes neglect to use some common sense. My wife and daughters (young) will probably never live the life to which I aspire, and that's okay. You do what you think is best for "your" family and *%#@ the rest.
Just a husband and father's opinion
Cheers
Are they necessarily going to be that much safer unlocking the car in front of your home? Getting out in a parking garage? It's my opinion that, properly lit, a biker is far safer than someone walking to a bus stop. A cyclist, particularly someone who carries themselves as a cyclist (helmet, lights, riding w/ trafffic etc, instead of going 4mph on a cruiser on the sidewalk w/o lights or helmet) seems to be viewed as a "vehicle," instead of as a "pedestrian," and as such is less likely to be mugged or accosted.
It makes me sad how many things females are discouraged from, and discourage themselves from doing because of their gender. Take some self defense classes, carry some mace, look alert, and you'll probably be fine.
On the other hand, I don't think I would have the same level of fear as you do.
It makes me sad how many things females are discouraged from, and discourage themselves from doing because of their gender.
I agree. I definitely think that Americans take their safety fears too far, or too far in the wrong direction, sometimes. Most people (in the USA and elsewhere) die of heart disease, cancer, or stroke, while those (like cyclists) who get exercise are less vulnerable to those diseases.
The person who commented about the Taliban seems to have views a bit like mine. I'm a guy so feel free to flame me for not knowing what it's like to be a woman or something but...
I find it to be a sort of sexist notion that women can't enjoy the freedom men can, to go about alone at night or in "bad neighborhoods". The fact that women believe it doesn't make it less anti-female, sexist, to me...
It makes me sad when people's own fears are, in a sense, taking away their freedoms. Of course, reasonable fears really should stop us from doing certain things, but I don't feel that this is a situation of reasonable fear. Women really aren't much weaker than men, on the whole, (take me for example, there are plenty of women stronger than me ;) ) and if people started thinking and acting as though that were true, maybe women would be targeted for violence even less than they already are.
I would encourage anybody, male or female, who's altered their lives due to fear of crime, to take a good self-defense course. You will learn not only how to protect yourself, but how to make reasonable assessments of how dangerous a given activity or area really is.
Ask around to find a good course. You may be able to find one at the college, the Y, women's groups and martial arts schools.
A good self-defense course will also be good exercise and fun--just like cyling.
folder fanatic
02-17-06, 11:53 AM
I am adult female without a car for most of her adult life. I live in a high crime area filled with gang members, desperate undocumented immigrants, and other criminal types. Sometimes I go out at night for good reasons-like escorting my father to the emergency room when he was alive. How do I do this? I use my Emergency Transport Vehicle-in other words my folding bicycle at 3:45 in the morning. I do not wait for taxis, good intentioned neighbors (even if they existed), one every hour buses, or some other means of public transportation. Cars cost $$$ and give a false sense of security. They can also be easly spotted by potential criminals. The bike has always protected me by being so small, quiet, and unassuming in it's nature. Also it could be combined with another vehicle in the event of another means of transport opens up. I vote for bikes anytime of the day or night.
I feel sorry for women (and men too!) who live their lives in fear. I found that cycling helped me overcome some of my anxieties about being out and about in public.
You might be more at home in Iran, or someplace in Afghanistan still controlled by the taleban. Iranians and others who have lived there say Iranians don't let their women out without a male relative escort even during the day.
That’s an incredibly rude and infantile thing to say. You’re equating the man’s completely reasonable concern for his family with genuine oppression, and in the most reactionary and indignant way possible.
There’s projection, which certainly isn’t lacking here, and then there’s you going out of your way to insult someone who’s just trying to work something out.
I don’t care if Jim wasn’t insulted, it was by itself a particularly mean-spirited, irrational and uncalled-for insult. I just wanted you to know that.
lamanda
02-17-06, 02:27 PM
When my (now-ex)husband left and took the car, all I had was my bike. I was living in Minneapolis and biked everywhere by myself night and day. I never felt afraid. In fact, I think it was the most strengthening thing I could have done. I knew people who lived in the suburbs that were afraid just to come into the city itself. I think fear keeps a lot of people from doing very freeing and normal things. I have taken a self-defense course back in college, about 6 years ago, thankfully never had to use it.
That’s an incredibly rude and infantile thing to say. You’re equating the man’s completely reasonable concern for his family with genuine oppression, and in the most reactionary and indignant way possible.
There’s projection, which certainly isn’t lacking here, and then there’s you going out of your way to insult someone who’s just trying to work something out.
I don’t care if Jim wasn’t insulted, it was by itself a particularly mean-spirited, irrational and uncalled-for insult. I just wanted you to know that.
OK TimJ, its Friday, I'll bite. It is a bike/car free issue. I'll admit I may have overstated the "male relative escort" part but the original poster may in fact feel more at home in a culture that uses protection of the family and exaggerated sexual distinctions as rational reasons to keep females from full and equal participation in society. I have to say that Muslims who I have asked about their customs, point to our divorce rate and teenage pregnancy rate and make comparisons with their own intact extended family life.
Iranians who I've known well enough that they have invited me into their homes have shown me a good side to their culture that doesn't come through in the newspapers. Iranians move to our country because they see good things in our culture, why shouldn't people from Colorado who share some of the cultural values move to an Islamic republic? People of any sex who are too timid to ride the bus seem foreign enough to me that they might feel more at home in a country where adult women don't ride bicycles and don't go out on the streets alone. They certainly wouldn't feel at home in my country, where women participate in many car free or bicycle activities at all hours.
What if the car breaks down with them inside? "Something" can happen all the time. Actually I think many, if not most attacks happen at the time when people are getting into their cars.
I am not saying you shouldn't be concerned and take precautions.. but a little reflection might go a long way. Also, whenever I'm concerned for the safety of anyone, I accompany them.. Sounds like more opportunities for you to ride your bike :D
oilfreeandhappy
02-18-06, 09:28 AM
I am adult female without a car for most of her adult life. I live in a high crime area filled with gang members, desperate undocumented immigrants, and other criminal types. Sometimes I go out at night for good reasons-like escorting my father to the emergency room when he was alive. How do I do this? I use my Emergency Transport Vehicle-in other words my folding bicycle at 3:45 in the morning. I do not wait for taxis, good intentioned neighbors (even if they existed), one every hour buses, or some other means of public transportation. Cars cost $$$ and give a false sense of security. They can also be easly spotted by potential criminals. The bike has always protected me by being so small, quiet, and unassuming in it's nature. Also it could be combined with another vehicle in the event of another means of transport opens up. I vote for bikes anytime of the day or night.
It's good to hear an account of somebody who successfully commutes, in even tougher conditions than where we live! WTG!
oilfreeandhappy
02-18-06, 09:41 AM
One other encouraging note. There are no stories in this thread from females who have been abused on their bike. I'm starting to lean more towards bicycling being safe. I always considered it similar to walking, which I certainly wouldn't want my wife or daughter doing alone (unless a high traffic area) at night. But with reflectors, lights, and general common sense, bicycling is probably much safer.
I-Like-To-Bike
02-18-06, 10:41 AM
One other encouraging note. There are no stories in this thread from females who have been abused on their bike. I'm starting to lean more towards bicycling being safe. I always considered it similar to walking, which I certainly wouldn't want my wife or daughter doing alone (unless a high traffic area) at night. But with reflectors, lights, and general common sense, bicycling is probably much safer.
A word of advice before getting too encouraged: Don't assume that the members/posters on this forum are anywhere close to a representative sample of people who do not own cars; especially those who are are unvoluntarily leading carless/material-lite lives due to their economic circumstances. Nor can you assume that the posters' reactions to local neighborhood circumstances are representative of anybody else's reactions.
Nor can you safely assume that the anectdotes posted reflect anything about the circumstances/situations effecting the bulk of the population elsewhere (be they cyclists, car-free, women or any other slice of the public).
OK TimJ, its Friday, I'll bite. It is a bike/car free issue. I'll admit I may have overstated the "male relative escort" part but the original poster may in fact feel more at home in a culture that uses protection of the family and exaggerated sexual distinctions as rational reasons to keep females from full and equal participation in society. I have to say that Muslims who I have asked about their customs, point to our divorce rate and teenage pregnancy rate and make comparisons with their own intact extended family life.
Iranians who I've known well enough that they have invited me into their homes have shown me a good side to their culture that doesn't come through in the newspapers. Iranians move to our country because they see good things in our culture, why shouldn't people from Colorado who share some of the cultural values move to an Islamic republic? People of any sex who are too timid to ride the bus seem foreign enough to me that they might feel more at home in a country where adult women don't ride bicycles and don't go out on the streets alone. They certainly wouldn't feel at home in my country, where women participate in many car free or bicycle activities at all hours.
That's completely ridiculous. Everything. The original message, your justification... there's nothing to "bite" at, I'm not trying to get you riled up or anything, you went out of your way to insult a guy with a completely unreasonable implication/suggestion and it was so incredibly... just the most self-obsessed kind of rude I didn't want to let it go. Trying to explain your insult as mearly a reasonable suggestion brought about by some rational thought process... it's just ridiculous. I normally wouldn't do something like this but I just really, really can't stand self-righteous posing. I don't know anything about you or what kind of person you are, but give me a break, you went out of your way to insult a guy, pretending it was your actual well-thought-out advice coming from the heart, please.
I understand the feeling of wanting to protect the people you love, however, I really think this is a completely irrational fear. What about the possibility of car accidents? Or that they could be mugged walking to or from the car? What makes it even more ridiculous is we're talking Ft Collins, Colorado. That ain't no gritty urban ghetto, that's freaking Main Street USA. Americans seem to have trouble grasping the concept of probability. Check the statistics and see which is more likely in sunny Ft Collins, Colorado: death by murder, or death by automobile. I'd bet you a case of Fat Tire Ale (brewed in Ft Collins of course) that cars are the real killers.
oilfreeandhappy
02-18-06, 06:00 PM
Thor,
No doubt you are correct. Also I forwarded this thread to my daughter, at Arizona State University. Here was her response:
"i'm fine with riding at night, and with riding the bus alone. i never said anything about being afraid of either of those."
So much for a Dad's worrying!
catamorphism
02-18-06, 07:33 PM
What are you worried about, exactly? What are they worried about? Who's going to be able to attack a woman riding a bike at 10 mph? I feel much safer when I'm riding a bike rather than walking (or driving, since carjacking is much more common than bike-jacking.)
catamorphism
02-18-06, 07:35 PM
Also, it's a lot more likely that your wife and daughters (or anybody who drives a car) will be a victim of a car accident than of a violent crime. Not driving reduces the chance of car accidents (though it doesn't eliminate them), without affecting the chance of violent crimes.
Katrogen
02-18-06, 09:58 PM
I have a different oppinion on this and I am a woman in the conservative town of Boise, Idaho. I've been attacked before by a guy while on my bike. I've been hit by a car while on my bike in broad daylight. I walk in a dark park every night/morning to the YMCA in cautious fear. I never use the local greenbelt alone or in dark hours. During cross country season we always run together or carry some sort of weapon (keys/sharp plastic/mace). Even in daylight. I never leave my bike unlocked. I rarely use the park public toilets by myself. Never do the hitchhiking option. And if a person looks slightly suspicious or perverted, I definantly avoid eye contact and conversation.
Why do I do these things? Because its how I was brought up with my parents. Both are highly protective and paranoid folks. They have good reason to be. Things can happen. I may be a young, strong athlete but I'm no match to some 300 pound gangster.
There is weird people out there. It could be anybody. To deal with this stuff lightly is rediculous. My grandfather was taken from us in a completely bizarre and blue moon sort of freak accident.
Mace is a good idea. Ride at night only if you have to. :) Sorry to sound serious but it scares me how laidback people are.
oilfreeandhappy
02-18-06, 10:26 PM
Here's what my wife has to say:
"There is good reason for women to be concerned for their safety, whether on public transportation, bicycle, on foot, or otherwise, here in the United States. Statistics show that one out of every 5 women has been forcibly raped, in the western states. Nation wide, the percentage is 13.4%. Men cannot relate to this feeling of vulnerability."
And?
How many of those women were raped from riding?
I mean, sometimes women just show illogical logic (for lack of a better phrase). I just think she doesn't want to ride, which is fine. But don't use those excuses and blame all those scenarios that are unlikely to happen.
P.S. Where did she get her statistics from anyway?
I feel badly for women who feel they'll be raped if they leave their houses outside of the comfort of their cars.
Koffee
oilfreeandhappy
02-18-06, 11:35 PM
Here's the link my wife referenced:
www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1425/context/outrage
Interestingly enough, as I was looking for this link again, I happened to notice the Brady Campaign link that states that 75% of rapes are perpetrated by offenders who knew the victim. This certainly wouldn't fit a cyclist.
www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets?page=women
http://www.rainn.org/statistics/
This site says one in every 6 women
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html
This site says 132,000 women report rape
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/rapestatisticspage.html
This site says 1 in 3 women will be raped
I would be less inclined to seriously entertain Arabic Women News as my source as to why I would feel disinclined to ride a bike.
The point is, it's all excuses. If she wants to drive a car, just get her a Toyota and be done with it. Pulling up some arab pro-woman news site isn't endearing her on this website.
Koffee
bkrownd
02-18-06, 11:57 PM
anyone who even thinks of living car-free in the USA is, by societal standards, pretty much a freak.
Some of us are already confirmed freaks, so it goes with the territory. ;)
I have a family of 4 licensed drivers. We have one car, which is usually with my wife or my daughter when she's home from College.
I cannot even consider getting rid of the car though, predominantly because I would fear for the safety of my wife and daughter at night. Even though we live in a relatively safe small college town, I'm just not comfortable with either of them cycling at night. And they aren't either.
Do others feel the same way? I'm also not comfortable with them walking to a bus stop at night - certainly not alone, and maybe not even with a friend.
Two of my ex-roommates were female, car-free cyclists, also in a small college town. I don't think they ever let their sex get in the way they of them wanting to do something. This was in the States.
In Sweden, a much larger percentage of the population bikes than in the States, and many more women of all walks of life (many car-free too but that is just because many more people here of college age are car-free). Females here though are generally regarded more highly than in the States.
I can't see how a female cyclist would be any more vulnerable at night than anyone else, since one's sex is not clearly visible anyway at night so being targetted for attack is more or less a non-issue.
Self-empowerment is an amazing thing, and is one step on the road toward sexual equality.
kohinoor
03-03-06, 02:38 PM
Why not ask your wife and daughter to dress in mens clothing when they ride there bikes in the night(moustache or beard optional). In my opinion the greatest threat is from the careless driver who has no consideration for the humble cyclist. I can understand your fears owing to the violent nature of some american cities and towns. Unfortunately the gun culture and violence is spreading all over the world. Statisically we are told otherwise.
folder fanatic
03-04-06, 12:51 PM
Where I live, anybody is shot at if one of the gang members want to do target practice on a moving object (a person on a bike) day or night. Male or female does not matter in the least. The urban centers in the US are more like war zones with the adoption of a commando mindset. I recommend it to anyone, anywhere. Crime seeks out the distracted, not the aware.
crazybikerchick
03-11-06, 12:59 AM
I have a family of 4 licensed drivers. We have one car, which is usually with my wife or my daughter when she's home from College.
I cannot even consider getting rid of the car though, predominantly because I would fear for the safety of my wife and daughter at night. Even though we live in a relatively safe small college town, I'm just not comfortable with either of them cycling at night. And they aren't either.
Do others feel the same way? I'm also not comfortable with them walking to a bus stop at night - certainly not alone, and maybe not even with a friend.
I feel perfectly safe riding my bike at night. It feels much safer than waiting/walking to transit. Its easy to escape from someone that might be bothering you as with the bike you are faster than a pedestrian and more agile than a car. The only thing I can think of that might be problematic is getting a flat tire and having to stop and fix it somewhere sketchy. This happened to me once and I walked the bike home as I was about 30 min walk from home - I didn't feel unsafe walking but I did feel unsafe stopping. If they have a cell phone they can use in case of emergency - to call a friend for a pickup, or to call a taxi, whatever, it would be useful!
oilfreeandhappy
03-12-06, 09:55 AM
Thought I'd follow up a little. My wife's been cycling a little more. Our last 2 dates were by bicycle - we rode to the movies in about 30-40 deg F weather, which is unusual for her. She did great! She's also doing some short commutes during the day. Making progress.
:beer:
Sounds good. Keep on truckin'! (yeah, I'm a 70s child)
Koffee
For someone who lives in a 'safe college town' you seem really paranoid. You're afraid for your wife and daughter's safety going to the bus stop? If you live in a safe community, it is very, very unlikely that anything will happen to them at or walking to a bus stop.
Not that I disagree, but many 'safe college towns' often have campus coed rape problems that are swept under the carpet and rarely discussed.
ghostdncr
03-12-06, 10:58 AM
Well, here's my standard answer. Ya gotta have a way to lock your bike, right? Were I a professional assailant, I'd think long and hard before I approached anyone armed with a 3-4' ft. Kryptonite chain/disc combo.
Then again, that's just my .02. YRMV
genericbikedude
03-12-06, 02:12 PM
On a tangential note: Does anyone else get as annoyed as I get when somebody wishes you a "safe holiday," or a "safe trip?" Jeez, Americans are jumping at shadows! Given that a "good holiday" or a "good trip" is neccesarily a safe one, I wish people would stop reminding me about how paranoid they are.
Does anyone else get as annoyed as I get when somebody wishes you a "safe holiday," or a "safe trip?"
I think they mean "act in a manner that will make you as safe as you can be" which is code for "act like a paranoid person, oh and by the way I hope you don't get hurt."
(half joking.)
overthere
03-21-06, 07:52 PM
I'm a car-free female, and like many here, I feel 'safer' on my bike than on foot. I stay on well lit, traveled roads. I play 'phantom rider' when I need to, and give people plenty of leeway. Just common sense stuff, but I remember when I used to 'need' someone to walk me to my car at night (same, safe area): it's largely a mind set and getting used to it. I just started riding at night this last winter, and I was really nervous about it. But now I sort of relish it. It's less busy, it's kind of cool to zip around in the dark (yes, with lights, day-glo bright yellow jacket and all).
I know I'm a convert now...my son just got a truck, and left his 1990 Laser here 'in case I need it' - and I just can't use it, because if I did I'd have to pay to put gas in it. I'm too cheap to pour $26 or whatever into the gas tank!!
I nominate overthere for carfree hero of the week. :)
davidmcowan
03-21-06, 10:23 PM
I understand the feeling of wanting to protect the people you love, however, I really think this is a completely irrational fear. What about the possibility of car accidents? Or that they could be mugged walking to or from the car? What makes it even more ridiculous is we're talking Ft Collins, Colorado. That ain't no gritty urban ghetto, that's freaking Main Street USA. Americans seem to have trouble grasping the concept of probability. Check the statistics and see which is more likely in sunny Ft Collins, Colorado: death by murder, or death by automobile. I'd bet you a case of Fat Tire Ale (brewed in Ft Collins of course) that cars are the real killers.
+1
Ft. Collins is much mellower. My girlfriend and I live car lite. We live off of Colfax avenue near Downtown Denver. She enjoys biking and uses it for frequent transportation. When she works night shifts I usually request that she takes the car, although she is the bold and brave type that sometimes ignores these requests.
oilfreeandhappy
03-23-06, 01:41 PM
I nominate overthere for carfree hero of the week. :)
I'll second that!
ellenDSD
03-31-06, 07:11 AM
It makes me sad how many things females are discouraged from, and discourage themselves from doing because of their gender. Take some self defense classes, carry some mace, look alert, and you'll probably be fine.
It IS sad. But I think the problem is two-fold. First off, women are taught to be afraid. Given the rape stats mentioned earlier in this thread, a woman might be inclined to feel that she is going to get raped for daring to exist as a female much less riding a bike at night. Like I said, women are taught to be afraid.
The other side of the proplem is that there are some awful people on this planet; Criminals/Takers who have no regard for anyone but themselves and have no qualms whatsoever about doing whatever they want or taking whatever they want. And are these people adequately punished for their crimes? No - they get a slap on the wrist and are free to offend again and again.
So, now what? Personally, I refuse to have my life dictated to me by some ******* who might wish to do me harm. I use common sense, my intuition and my intellect. If I ever find myself the target of an attack, then I will fight. I will summon up the rage of every woman harmed before me and fight. God help the SOB who tries to hurt me or my family.
If you hadn't figured it out, criminals really piss me off.
lmfao, yeah my GF wants to get all done up and then ride a bike 20 miles to a function and arrive like a sweatball.
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