General Cycling Discussion - Lauderdale man charged with hate crime for running over bicyclist

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-chate08nov08,0,7533440.story?coll=sfla%2Dnews%2Dbroward

A Fort Lauderdale man grabbed the steering wheel of the car his girlfriend was driving and struck a bicyclist because the rider was black, a Broward Sheriff's Office spokeswoman said Thursday.

Kenneth Frank Greer, 43, was charged with aggravated battery, but he faces stiffer penalties if convicted because the incident has been classified as a hate crime.

About 11 a.m. Wednesday Greer and his girlfriend were driving east in the 800 block of Hammondville Road in Pompano Beach as Corey Nesmith, 25, was crossing the street.

"They were doing about 55, 50 mph and then the car just ran right into me," Nesmith said Thursday. "That's it. Out of nowhere. Just hit me.

"I was dazed," he said. "I saw [the man] coming to pick up his hubcap and side-view mirror so I grabbed him because I thought he was going to leave me, and I held him there until the police came."

Nesmith had no idea he was targeted because he was black. Neither did deputies until Greer got back to the police station and unleashed a string of racial slurs and equated black people with "crack dealers," Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright said.

"It doesn't surprise me," Coleman-Wright said. "Bigotry and prejudice have been in our country for centuries. ... Am I disappointed? Yes. But it doesn't surprise me at all, and it's not going away any time soon."

Nesmith, who escaped with scrapes and bruises, said he wasn't angry about what happened.

"I don't hate nobody," he said. "I'm not mad at anybody. They got him. It doesn't matter."

Nesmith's mother, Gussie Williams, was not so forgiving.

"They need to keep him [in jail] for life or how long he can stay in there because he doesn't need to be out here in society being like that," she said. "He's got to deal with life out here in society. If he can't deal with that, he needs to be elsewhere."

That area is actually fairly close to me but I avoid it because it is a "rough" section of low income housing ,strip bars etc.I had also seen the headline but didn't read the article because I try to ignore negative news ,incidents like this that the media loves to dweal on.I guess it takes something this blatent for Broward police to side against the motorist.l

I'm also from close-by. And like RWTD I too avoid that part of town for its "roughness". I'm not black, but it still makes me a little nervous riding after reading a story like that. I've read others' stories about similar, if not worse experiences, but have never had anything remotely like this happen to me.

I've never been hit, never had anything thrown at me, never been shot by a paintball gun (as someone on usenet recently related). Usually I have pleasant rides, with one or two rude a$$#0 *cough* motorists thrown in to spice things up.

It just hits close to home (literally) to read of such an event in your own back yard. The article doesn't say weather the young man was an avid cyclist or someone just out for a ride to get from point A to pont B, but I don't think it matters.

I have a feeling that if this guy is going to attempt to murder someone just because he's black, he wouldn't have much compassion for me with my shaved legs, and girly spandex fashion choices (yes I'm a guy / yes I'm hetero).

Unfortunately I think society in general is on the decline, and this just adds to that assumption.

Lately, due to lack of daylight and long working hours, I've been riding in the early morning. I get up in the dark at 5:00 AM, put on my arm warmers and lights, and head out. I've got the roads mostly to myself, and it's great. No cars, no sunscreen, no worries. I even saw another cyclist this morning. Usually I don't see any other cyclists around here, except on organized rides. I just said "hi" today, but if I see him tomorrow, I think I'll try to make a new riding partner.

My point is: If you're getting skittish like me about riding due to our four wheeled friends, and weather permits, don't discount the early morning ride, it's great! Most likely, the lynchin' squad will still be sleeping off that case of Milwaukee's Best from last night, so you should be relatively safe.

Now that I think about it a disproportionate number of the (infrequent)hateful yelling incidents I have encountered lately have been in the Pompano Bch area .I agree early morning rides are ideal in Fl I like to start around 4:30 or earlier on long rides up to Jupiter and back.I also have had no real incidents while cycling and don't like too dweal on these things as they will just be more likely to occur or affect my enjoyment of the ride.

The idea of a "hate crime" nauseates me. It is no more worse a crime if the victim were white,black,yellow,pink or blue. The fact remains that a crime against another person occurred and the criminal should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

I have to TOTALLY agree with Duffy. I dont want to take anything away from the victim here but what do you think the charges would be if the guy (who was hit) was white. It surely wouldnt be a hate crime. I am so sick of this PC bullsh!t. Call it like it is, a crime is a crime is a crime no matter what color you are.

I dont know what is more stupid, calling a violent crime a "hate crime" depending on what races are involved or the PC people who are trying so hard to get rid of racism yet are keeping it alive and well with stupid ideas such as this.

Sorry for the rant.

Cheers

Well Pompano Bch is an odd place .Given the size of the black population there its amazing the number of hateful crackers running around sporting confederate flags.If they aren't calling blacks names they are calling spandex clad bikers or some other group names.It's more like rural Ga. than So.Fl. so I really have no symphathy for these types engaging in premeditated ,unprovoked violence even though i don't tend to be political correct or not.

The idea of a "hate crime" nauseates me

That's because it is a THOUGHT crime.
As much as we all dislike prejudice, the idea of a thought crime seems too Orwellian.

Originally posted by Falchoon
..."I don't hate nobody," he said. "I'm not mad at anybody. They got him. It doesn't matter."

Nesmith's mother, Gussie Williams, was not so forgiving.

"They need to keep him [in jail] for life or how long he can stay in there because he doesn't need to be out here in society being like that," she said. "He's got to deal with life out here in society. If he can't deal with that, he needs to be elsewhere."...

I admire Mr. Nesmith's outlook but am afraid I side more with his mother.

Let Mr. Greer try and cross the street and give Gussie the keys to the car IMHO.

Originally posted by Falchoon
"They need to keep him [in jail] for life or how long he can stay in there because he doesn't need to be out here in society being like that," she said. "He's got to deal with life out here in society. If he can't deal with that, he needs to be elsewhere."

His mom is right. Unfortunately though, we all know that life behind bars is not going to happen to this jerk. The sad part is that this guy is going to get some time in prison, and then he'll be released.

So, does anyone think that time in prison is going to rehabilitate this person? Will this racist be a better person after a few years in prison? Will society be a better place when he is returned to us? Sadly, we all know the answer to those questions.

In terms of this being a hate crime – it is. This low-life has an issue with an entire group of people. That makes him MUCH more dangerous to society than some other criminals.

We don’t need scum like this in our society. We should smash him into the sidewalk, and then wash away the stain. :mad:

This incident is extremely unfortunate and I can only hope that when I am out there riding someone doesn't get an idea to try to run me down because I am black. Sometimes I wonder if there will ever be a day when I get to let me guard down some.

Originally posted by bac


His mom is right. Unfortunately though, we all know that life behind bars is not going to happen to this jerk. The sad part is that this guy is going to get some time in prison, and then he'll be released.


In terms of this being a hate crime – it is. This low-life has an issue with an entire group of people. That makes him MUCH more dangerous to society than some other criminals.

We don’t need scum like this in our society. We should smash him into the sidewalk, and then wash away the stain. :mad:

I agree with all this, but still don't understand the "hate crime" part. Is there a love crime? The hate crime part PC to me and I hate PC. Just hang the sob and be done with it.
Joe
:beer:

"Hate Crime" isn't a PC term. It is simply a special designation and added severity given to people who attack others simply because of the color of thier skin, ethnic background, religion or whatever. This is society stating that we will not tolerate this behavior. It's bad enough to hurt someone for any reason but to specifically target someone like this makes it a little worse.

Plus it has the potential to be much more explosive than a similar disspasionate crime by potentially igniting racial tensions ,retaliations and even potentially riots etc. I would think.

originally posted by Duffy
The idea of a "hate crime" nauseates me. It is no more worse a crime if the victim were white,black,yellow,pink or blue. The fact remains that a crime against another person occurred and the criminal should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.


originally posted by TLN
I have to TOTALLY agree with Duffy. I dont want to take anything away from the victim here but what do you think the charges would be if the guy (who was hit) was white. It surely wouldnt be a hate crime. I am so sick of this PC bullsh!t. Call it like it is, a crime is a crime is a crime no matter what color you are.

I dont know what is more stupid, calling a violent crime a "hate crime" depending on what races are involved or the PC people who are trying so hard to get rid of racism yet are keeping it alive and well with stupid ideas such as this.


while i agree that the offender should be punished even if it were not a hate crime or not racially motivated, i disagree that a hate crime is just a "PC" thing and/or doesn't make a difference.

when someone undertakes illegal action against another person for abstract reasons such as racial prejudice, the severity of the crime is greatly increased - the perpetrator no longer views the victim as a person or someone deserving of fair treatment. this flawed attitude must be punished and dealt with ín addition to the actual crime.

A crime is a crime is a crime. Regardless of the color of skin or sexual persuasion of the victim,the fact is a crime was committed upon an innocent victim. It is political correctness run amuck! So,what do you do? Pull out his fingernails before you execute the criminal? It might make some people(liberals) feel good that a special label was applied to the crime,but that is all it does!

As I said before it appears to be more about preventing escalations of violence particularly in low income urban areas than to score political points by assigning labels.However if what you all want to do is get in a political debate don't let me stop you.

My first teaching job was at the local high school (Ely, for you locals) and I agree that it's a different area. Very "rough" and in some areas almost Third World poor. I've driven kids home after football practice and their houses in some cases were nearly roofless and otherwise collapsing. I can see why the Broward Sheriff's office is responding vigorously, this kind of incident can trigger much worse.

The fool needs to sit in jail for a long period of time. He tried to commit murder and needs to pay the price. I too am uncomfortable, at the least, with the whole concept of "hate crimes" but if the driver gets a few extra years then I guess the idea has some use.

I'd like to know why attacking someone with different coloured skin is considered a hate crime, but attacking someone on the basis of different mode of transport is not. Is society telling us that it's OK to discriminate as long as you discriminate on an "acceptable" basis? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting that discriminating on the basis of race is right, I'm just wondering why other forms of discrimination are considered more "acceptable".

Either way, I hope the perpetrator of this crime spends a loooooooooooong time getting personally acquainted with "Bubba".

Pretty much because in a imperfect world those that "riot" the loudest or otherwise make themselves heard get results .I agree that its no different though because I have experienced the unprovoked verbal abuse from these same types and it stuns me when such ignorant hatred comes from out of the blue.

Nathank..."when someone undertakes illegal action against another person for abstract reasons such as racial prejudice, the severity of the crime is greatly increased - the perpetrator no longer views the victim as a person or someone deserving of fair treatment. this flawed attitude must be punished and dealt with ín addition to the actual crime."

Ill have to disagree with you on this. First of all the label "hate crime" is a PC thing. Second, you said "when someone undertakes illegal action against another person for abstract reasons such as racial prejudice, the severity of the crime is greatly increased." This is simply not true in every case. I would even say this is not true in most cases. A person who commits a violent crime like this has no intention of giving his victim fair treatment regardless of skin color, sexual orientation or what have you. People who commit crimes like this need to be dealt with in the same manner... quickly and severly.

If I offend anyone with my unPC thoughts on this all I can say is deal with it, but I really dont care to find out what is going on inside of a persons head when they commit a violent crime (self defense not included) or what their feeling were after the crime. Anyone who cannot figure out good from bad needs to be swiftly and severly punished and not coddled. Punishment is not revenge, its just punishment.

Cheers

What you fail to deal with is the fact that this is a law one I suspect has broad bilateral support from conservatives and moderates who have a vested interest in reduced civil/racial strife and liberals who espouse political correctness whatever that is(I guess I don't watch enough TV).I suspect only the more radical fringes on either side would totally object rather than simply objecting to the nomenclature or saying it doesn't go far enough.

Hate crime or no hate crime. Swerving to hit a bicyclist is just plain idiotic. He should be charged with attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon. If anything, I think being charged with a hate crime should be thrown in there, just to put him away for a few extra years. There's something obviously wrong with this individual. As far as rehabilitation, I don't think there's much that can be done for a person like this. I'm just glad that the person didn't get seriously injured, or killed.

And to top it off, the guy actually went back for the hubcap?

People like this are the reason I carry a knife on rides. However, the knife is made of ti and carbon, so it shaves a few grams;)

Originally posted by RWTD
What you fail to deal with is the fact that this is a law one I suspect has broad bilateral support from conservatives and moderates who have a vested interest in reduced civil/racial strife and liberals who espouse political correctness whatever that is(I guess I don't watch enough TV).I suspect only the more radical fringes on either side would totally object rather than simply objecting to the nomenclature or saying it doesn't go far enough.

The part that doesn't make sense is - when would trying to run down some one not be a hate crime. So why have a different name for it sometimes?

Chris L worded it right.

Joe
:beer:

I haven't read the law nor am I a lawyer but the point I was trying to make was I don't think this is a good example to use to bash PC liberals because it seems to have as much or more to offer non liberals who are typically the ones demanding law and order and tougher penalties for criminals.I think the racial slandering(combined with the violence) was the dead giveaway that this should be a hate crime as the evidence is then there to establish motive but I would tend to agree most times intentionally trying to run someone down would seem to indicate hatred but who knows what some of these people are thinking .

Originally posted by TLN
Nathank..."when someone undertakes illegal action against another person for abstract reasons such as racial prejudice, the severity of the crime is greatly increased - the perpetrator no longer views the victim as a person or someone deserving of fair treatment. this flawed attitude must be punished and dealt with ín addition to the actual crime."

Ill have to disagree with you on this. First of all the label "hate crime" is a PC thing. Second, you said "when someone undertakes illegal action against another person for abstract reasons such as racial prejudice, the severity of the crime is greatly increased." This is simply not true in every case. I would even say this is not true in most cases. A person who commits a violent crime like this has no intention of giving his victim fair treatment regardless of skin color, sexual orientation or what have you. People who commit crimes like this need to be dealt with in the same manner... quickly and severly.


TLN, well, maybe i'm not explaining myself well here... but i'll try again...

as far as i know the hate crime is a special distinction because it is a type of crime committed primarily to intimidate, eradicate, humiliate, ridicule, or subordinate a victim because he is a member of a particular race/sex/sexual orientation/religion. furthermore, because these crimes often occur in places where this type of action may be commom or perceived as socially acceptable (e.g. gay-bashing in many rural areas is often viewed as not only acceptable but desirable), special status is also beneficial b/c w/o it the crime is often not punished --- and the effect of the hate crime is acheived: to intimidate those of the entire group to which the victim belongs.

a normal murder usually occurs because the criminal has a problem with an INDIVIDUAL (spouse, personal dispute, etc) or that INDIVIDUAL is preventing the person from commiting the crime (like car-jacking or shootings during robbery). a hate crime occurs NOT BECAUSE of specific characteristics of the INDIVIDUAL, but because of his GROUP membership.

i apologize that my answer is not better - today's not my day, so the words come only with difficulty.

as to Chris' question as to why crimes against cyclists are not classified as hate crimes: well, partly because as you said there hasn't been enough "whining"... but also, although i agree that there are many motorists that discriminate against cyclists i think a very small number fall into the category of hate crimes and are truly TRRYING to kill cyclists (they kill cyclists b/c they are selfish and/or inattentive which is still bad) --- if there were a large number of people out there who drove around purposely trying to run cyclists off the road and vandalizing parked bicycles and setting booby-traps for bicycles to intimidate cyclists to NEVER ride in public - then i would say crimes against cyclists might possible be considered for "hate crime" status.

If you can't live nice in society...you need to be removed. Screw the re-hab. Death is the answer.
I don't care if your running down black guys, raping women, molesting children, torturing animals...anything that is inflicted upon another non-willing partipant and is deemed socially un-acceptable needs to carry the death penalty.

ZERO TOLERANCE! Maybe that will straighten some of these hillbillys out.

Its just sick to hear something like that happens. Its great to hear that the cyclist is ok, especially if the car was going at that velocity. The sadest part of the whole article is that the sheriff is right when he said that their are many more people like that out there and the problem is far from being over.

Originally posted by WaltH
...anything that is inflicted upon another non-willing partipant and is deemed socially un-acceptable needs to carry the death penalty.
Absolutely! I'm sure that you, along with many others, will agree with me that farting in public is socially unacceptable and is a serious matter to the non-willing participant. So I say, "Death to all who fart in public!"

Nice SteveE
Spoken like a true pacifist who would never stand up for their rights for fear of stepping on someone's toes. I'll bet you thing guns kill people too.

Originally posted by WaltH
Nice SteveE
Spoken like a true pacifist who would never stand up for their rights for fear of stepping on someone's toes. I'll bet you thing guns kill people too.

No. Six-year-olds kill people, like in Michigan. See Bowling for Columbine (http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/home.php).

Regardless of what you think the punishment for these crimes should be, do you actually think it's acceptable to execute many completely innocent people who were wrongfully convicted just to seek vengeance on the few truly evil ones?

Regardless of what you think, it's the individual who shoots the gun who is the killer, not the gun itself. Responsible gun owners keep their weapons out of the reach of children.

Now Michael Moore is submitting a petition to have WalMart stop selling handgun ammunition. Michael Moore is a fu@king idiot.

There's an article in the paper here today that pretty well sums it up. A gun shop is being sued because a gun they sold killed someone. This is a gun they sold to an individual, who then sold it to a friend. That friend was robbed and the gun stolen. The thief used it to kill someone. How is it that this can even go before a judge.

The world has too many bleeding hearts that will not allow the hardline to be taken to get things back in order.

It's the children of these bleeding hearts that are pulling weapons on teachers in school and the teachers aren't even allowed to spank their little butt's.

Take ownership of the world's problems and try to fix them. Don't pawn them off on other people as their problem.

Originally posted by WaltH
If you can't live nice in society...you need to be removed. Screw the re-hab. Death is the answer.
I don't care if your running down black guys, raping women, molesting children, torturing animals...anything that is inflicted upon another non-willing partipant and is deemed socially un-acceptable needs to carry the death penalty.

ZERO TOLERANCE! Maybe that will straighten some of these hillbillys out.

While I mostly agree with your frist paragraph the phrase "zero tolerance" always looks like a over simplefication of something. But I do believe that we should calmly decide what crimes are capitol and set them that way and not leave it to a jury. It seems that no matter what happens only the poor get exicuted.

Joe

I agree with you Joe. If you have enough money, you can pretty much get away with murder.

Originally posted by Chris L
I'd like to know why attacking someone with different coloured skin is considered a hate crime, but attacking someone on the basis of different mode of transport is not. Is society telling us that it's OK to discriminate as long as you discriminate on an "acceptable" basis? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting that discriminating on the basis of race is right, I'm just wondering why other forms of discrimination are considered more "acceptable".

Either way, I hope the perpetrator of this crime spends a loooooooooooong time getting personally acquainted with "Bubba". Yes I would have to agree.

Originally posted by WaltH
Nice SteveE
Spoken like a true pacifist who would never stand up for their rights for fear of stepping on someone's toes. I'll bet you thing guns kill people too.
Nope, bullets kill people. Anyway, let the punishment fit the crime. I think your statement"ZERO TOLERANCE" is pretty ridiculous. Evidently, you feel its okay to pick and choose which constitutional amendments you'll support and which ones you won't.

Cheers!

Originally posted by WaltH
If you can't live nice in society...you need to be removed. Screw the re-hab. Death is the answer.
I don't care if your running down black guys, raping women, molesting children, torturing animals...anything that is inflicted upon another non-willing partipant and is deemed socially un-acceptable needs to carry the death penalty.

ZERO TOLERANCE! Maybe that will straighten some of these hillbillys out.

Now Walt - surely you jest. Are you going to be the one who determines what is, and what is not socially acceptable? Perhaps you just got a bit carried away, and the above post just spewed from your fingers? Read it again, and please let us know that you are not serious. You would have 95% of the population killed given your stance. :confused:

OK, might be a little finger spewing going on there. But this is a starting point. The crimes would need to be identified and added to the list. I doubt "farting in public" would make my list. I can guarantee however that any type of physical/mental abuse toward man or beast would make my list.
Laws and amendments are meant to be re-visited and adjusted. Trying to live by rules made by men hundreds of years ago in a time that had none of the problems of today is ludicrous.

We live now in a time where the actions of one person can impact many more than 200 years ago. Somebody went crazy then, they fired a minne' ball and took 2 minutes to reload. Now, you got some lunatic with an automatic and full body armor. Just an example to note that times have changed.

90%....Hmmmm....yea, that sounds about right.

Seriously though, why do we pay 50K per year to keep Charles Manson in prison when for 3 dollars in chemicals he could be eliminated. Talk about your heinous crimes. The judicial system needs a complete revamping. Some of these judges have such a god complex it boggles the mind. I think they talk just to hear themselves speak and don't even know what they're talking about.

I'm done now. Said my peace and peace is what I want.

What a long strange trip it's been....and will continue to be.

wats a hate crime ??!! if you came home from work and found someone in the prosese of raping &killing your wife & you shot him dead & in the interview with the police you mentioned that you hated ******* & murderers would you now be guilty of a "hate crime", sorry i dont under stand. if he tried to run the poor man over i thought it would be quite plain that he hated him ,or at least didnt realy like him very much.:crash: :crash:

They should be prosecuting this sorry excuse for a human being for attempted homicide rather than aggravated battery. That makes more sense to me than terming it a "hate crime". I'm on the side that says a crime's a crime, that's hateful enough for me.

Using the label hate crime is an attempt to punish peoples thoughts and intentions. The thought police are on patrol. Since when is it a crime to hate someone? As dispicable as it may be it should not be crminalized in a free country. The fact is most hate crimes run one way;white against black or straight against gay. When was the last time a gay was charged with a hate crime for killing a straight boy?

Originally posted by Duffy
The idea of a "hate crime" nauseates me. It is no more worse a crime if the victim were white,black,yellow,pink or blue. The fact remains that a crime against another person occurred and the criminal should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

The law has always made a distinction between crimes based on motive. First-degree murder is worse under the law than second-degree murder, because first-degree murder was planned cold-bloodedly.

"Hate crimes" are distinguished not by the fact that their victims are more important than anyone else, but because the motive is a pure, evil hatred.

I already hate that mischievous driver.

It is like in anecdote:

- An old Armenian dies and says to his family, who gathered around: "Take care of Jews, children!"

His relatives are surprised: "Why? Why Jews?"

He answers: "Because after decimating Jews, they will start with Armenians."

What if I think of murdering someone?

Originally posted by Duffy
What if I think of murdering someone?

Yourself?

Originally posted by Duffy
. When was the last time a gay was charged with a hate crime for killing a straight boy? Here I thought you'd bring in the whole "He's just too cute I couldn't kill him 'sides I might break a nail!" arguement as your previous ultra-right wing statements would lead me to assume could it be you have some tolerance or even gasp liberal tendencies? Hate crimes target a specific group or class of person ie: Gays, Blacks, Wookies whatever. The idea behind charging someone with a "hate crime" is that while a crime against any person is wrong, a crime specifically targeted against a person because you don't like the group or class of person that they belong to can lead to larger, more heinous acts against that group by other sick screwballs using the first as an example. All one needs to do is look at the actions of the KKK during the push for Civil Rights / segregation battles of the 60's to see what happens when you let "hate crimes" go unchecked. Call it what you will, while I admit "hate crime" is more sound-bite friendly than "sick a$$hole bullshizzit" it amounts to the same thing. This guy specifically attacked they guy because he was black.

Before anybody asks I'd be pi$$ed if he was attacked for being a cyclist.

Originally posted by Duffy
What if I think of murdering someone?
It's not against the law unless you actually kill someone.

But if you do murder someone, and it can be proven that you planned it ahead of time, your sentence will be far worse for having thought about it first.

Originally posted by Raiyn
[B...I'd be pi$$ed if he was attacked for being a cyclist.[/B]
If a white girl was killed by a black man simply because she was white, you can imagine what would happen to him.

Originally posted by Pete Clark

If a white girl was killed by a black man simply because she was white, you can imagine what would happen to him. Ah, the double standards of life, white attacks black because he hate black people and folks bemoan the title of "hate crime". Black attacks white for the same reason people cry for blood.

Why do stupid people breed?