Classic & Vintage - Araya 631 tubing?

This is my first post on BikeForums, though I've read them for quite a while.

I just scored this bike on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7218023527&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
For the link averse, it is labeled as a Vista Elite, and as Made in Japan, with an Araya 631 tubing sticker. It is equiped with Shimano 600 Arabesque group and Araya 700c rims.

I scoured the archives and found a post or two about Japanese-built Vistas, but not much. Most of the Vista questions were about the badly American made Schwinn competitors. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about Araya 631 tubing. There was a post that said it was unlikely, but possible that someone would "overdress" a gaspipe frame in Shimano 600 during that era. Appealing to the wisemen: Is it Cro-Mo? Is it Hi-ten? Does Anyone know, or will I just have to see if it weighs the same as my 80's Schwinn Voyageur?

I really fell for the Shimano 600EX "Arabesque" group, and there were quite a few posts here to help me. I do wonder whether anyone has tried to use the rear der on an 8-speed wheel (I also scored a pair of tubular wheels with older DuraAce hubs.) Does it have the throw, or will I just have to wait and see?

Thank you all for your help so far.

Paul

I personally have never heard of 631 Araya. Reynolds 631 is a manganese molybdenum steel, and the numbers represent the percents of the major alloying material, so this number could be the same type of thing. Araya wouldn't have hung 600EX parts on a hi-ten steel frame, so it is more than likely good butted chrome moly. Take a picture of the tubing sticker when you get it, I'd like to see that. The parts group is cool, and will shift over seven speeds very well (I have tried it.)

Really, I'd be suprised if the derailleur didn't have the throw to cover eight speeds. Shimano tuned the arc of the derailleur parallograms to match the spacing of the cogset (or maybe the other way around...) when they went to indexing, but if you are sticking with friction shifters this is not an issue.

Nice looking bike. Araya was a rim maker, and that name may be stamped on the rims. The Shimano 600 components look like they are from the 1978ish-1980ish era, when a Japanese bike would have had 27 inch rims, not 700c rims.

The frame on a Shimano 600 bike made in Japan would typically have been high quality Japanese tubing, consistent with the high grade components. Other than one or two models imported by Schwinn, I don't recall seeing Reynolds tubes on any Japanese bike of that period.

I suspect you will have to wait until you actually have the bike in your hands to see what's what. E-Bay ads seldom are known for accuracy.

Bikes of that era are good deals, if they are kept as original as possible. When folks "up date" 80ish bikes by converting them from five or six cog drivetrains to eight or nine cog drivetrains, they often spend a lot of money, and do not really end up with a better riding bike. If this were my bike, I'd clean it up, tune it up, put new tires on it, and enjoy it just as it is.

Thank both of you gentleman for your input. Your thoughts on the tubing are what I was hoping. I guess I will have to wait for the bike to arrive to know for sure, but you got me over the buyer's remorse. The ad does raise some questions. Are the rims really 700c? Pretty likely then that it was a decent bike for someone to trouble with that update.

I will attempt to take the advice to heart, but I have a difficult time not tinkering with things. My other road bike is a '97 Mongoose carbon road bike. It has the Shimano 600 STI, which is dead reliable for me, and an 8-speed. I bought it some new wheels this spring, actually two sets. Now I have three sets of 8-speed wheels and will shortly have two road bikes. You know I'll have to try it.

Paul

Bikes of that era are good deals, if they are kept as original as possible. When folks "up date" 80ish bikes by converting them from five or six cog drivetrains to eight or nine cog drivetrains, they often spend a lot of money, and do not really end up with a better riding bike.

I would respectfully disagree. I recently updated my 82 Miyata tourer to 9 speed 700c wheels simply by buying a used set of Ultegra/Open Pro wheels for $100. The wheels came with a Dura Ace cassette, and I bought a new 9 speed chain and front middle chainring at the LBS for ~$40, as well as a couple new Conti tires for $12 apiece. The bike has cantilever brakes which mated up perfectly to the wheels, and the original Suntour derailleur works perfectly on the 9 speed cassette with a little tweaking to the limit screws. This is with friction shifters. The paint was white and hadn't been properly cleaned in years, so I used one of those magic erasers and it cleaned up real nice. I bought a little bottle of white touch up paint and spent a couple hours one evening going over all the little chips and scratches.

It rides much better now. Smoother, faster, quieter, and with a more modern drivetrain. All with a lot less than $200 invested.

If the bike fits and is in good shape, $200 is nothing to get a more modern drivetrain and wheelset.

Az

Araya did market bicycles under their own name in Japan, so I supsect that the frame was manufctured for Vista by Araya. I'd guess that ARY= Araya in the ARYL963661 serial number.

The question then becomes whether the tubing is actually manufactured by Araya or simply rebadged Tange or Infinity, like some manufacturers did. I have seen other Vista with Araya tubing, though not 631. Given that Araya extruded their own rims, it would not be much of a stretch for them to extrude their own tubing, though I have nothing to substantiate this. Most sources indicate that Miyata was the only Japanese manufacturer to produce their own tubing.

Yes, it is true that some manufacturers hung Shimano 600 on a lesser grade frame, as it was the components that attracted most customers. There was a Vista Silver Shadow in the late 1970s that used Shimano 600 derailleurs, hubs and brakes, but not the crankset. It had a double butted frame. Given the 600 crankset and 700C wheels, it seems likely that your model is a newer and slightly higher version of the Silver Shadow. In which case, it is probably a CrMo butted tubeset.

The bicycle appears early 1980s. I suspect the marketers were likley counting on the similarity of Araya 631 to Reynolds 531, to lure some customers. During the same period, Fuji had a butted CrMo set, which I believe was 331. Some of the Araya brand bicycles marketed during this period did use CrMo, butted tubing, so the possibility is defintely there, but you won't know for sure until you get the bicycle and have a good look at the tubing decal. If it's inconclusive, the seat post diameter is a good indicator of tubing grade.

Thank you T-mar. That type of detailed analysis is impressive. If I could ask a clarifying question, what is the correlation between seat post diameter and tubing grade?

Paul

Araya did market bicycles under their own name in Japan, so I supsect that the frame was manufctured for Vista by Araya. I'd guess that ARY= Araya in the ARYL963661 serial number.

I had that thought as well when I saw the serial number but I haven't had time to mess with this until today. The serial number on my Araya bike is located in the same place and is ARYL107821. This bike is very similar in construction to my Araya - mine dates to 1981, was made with champion #1 and full dura ace. I don't think that they could have made a million of 'em...so at least one of those digits is a date code. Could the 600EX bike date from 1979?

I wonder how many other brands were actually Araya's with someone else's sticker?

Luker, either the "L" or the "1" could be be the year indicator. Since, both SKS and yourself have an "L" in the frame serial number, it should be pretty easy to determine which is the year indicator after SKS gets the bicycle and has a chance to examine the date codes on the Shimano 600EX parts.

Araya probably produced frames for several brands, but Vista is the only one that I recall, offhand.

SteakKnife Sally, most Japanese steel frames use a seat tube with a standard 28.6mm outside diameter. Better grade tubesets use higher strength steels, which permit thinner and lighter tubes. Since the outside diameter is common, better grade tubesets with thinner walls will require slightly larger diameter seat posts. Generally, 26.8mm or larger indicates a good grade, CrMo butted tubeset.

During the 70's and 80's a distributor named Service Cycle Supply of Commack, Long Island imported Araya bicycles. I believe that they were the sole importer for Araya for the country. They were very well manufactured bikes and I remember my Dad selling them at his bike shop in the late 1960's. I agree with others that the '631' tubing sticker was a blatant attempt to mooch off of the very prevalent British Reynolds 531 tubing that was being heavily used by almost all European manufacturers .

I am a first time visitor.. found the site searching for information on my bike. I purchased an Araya in 1977 in the US. I long ago lost the owners manual, and was looking for information tonight on it. I recall it was the step below their racing bicycle

I road it extensively until 1986, both touring and commuting to/from work. It was then shelved, as I became busy raising a family. The bike is original except for cables, tires/tubes, pads, etc. This summer my oldest son, 17, asked if we could take it out and let him ride it. Gave it the once over - grease, lube, new cables, wheel tunning (still had my stand!), etc. It still rides GREAT!

It came with Sun Tour derailleurs, quick release front wheel and the high alloy frame. I remember one of my main reasons for buying this bike was it weight, with the price. It was the cheapest lowest weight, high quality, touring bike I could find. It obviously has stood the test of time 30 years later!

I'll post a picture of the tubing sticker soon.

If anyone else has an Araya I'd be interested.

I still have mine...it is one of the few all original bikes that I have (save tires). It rides very nicely, although it is hanging on a back hook right now and hasn't been out much this year.

In the mid-1980s I purchased a black w/red trim Vista Elitehttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_qK21B1AAz7E/SgFgWcKxw7I/AAAAAAAACFU/O5Yfor3IYQM/s720/IMG_1369.JPG
from Lindman's Cyclery in downtown Irving, TX. This oft-visited shop of my boyhood has now become a pawn shop, but I retain the bike...and the memories.

For 15+ years I have kept my Vista in storage, just collecting dust (and some surface rust on some screw heads and the front forks). I cleaned him up last night and took him out for a ride. Even after the decade and a half of neglect, he ran like a whisper in the night breeze.

As for the specs, this Vista Elite is c.1983 with Shimano 600 shift/brake systemhttp://lh5.ggpht.com/_qK21B1AAz7E/SgFggOefc3I/AAAAAAAACII/ga2mVtzNzNU/s720/IMG_1387.JPG, Araya 700C rimshttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_qK21B1AAz7E/SgFgee49lcI/AAAAAAAACH4/6ib_2-k4_mY/s640/IMG_1382.JPG, Araya 631 tubinghttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_qK21B1AAz7E/SgFgfbBb-WI/AAAAAAAACIA/8fplfOS-pKc/s720/IMG_1386.JPG,
12 speed (6 sprocket)http://lh3.ggpht.com/_qK21B1AAz7E/SgGGvvwDniI/AAAAAAAACKU/NqsVDlYTr5g/s720/IMG_1389.JPG.
All original, except for replacement Schwinn 220Gr Super 700 tires and stems. Accessories: Cannondale water bottle with velcro frame mount and Zefal HPx4 pump.

For some "before" and "after" pics, and a few others, please click HERE (http://picasaweb.google.com/havens.richard/VistaElite#). These are posted in my public folder on Google Picasa.

For all those Vista owners, riders and fans, I'd love to see pics of your Vista bicycle(s). My first bike was a lime green Stingray with a hip yellow banana seat (yeah, with all the 70s regalia), but all those since have been Vistas. The quality is superb. A professional cyclist once told me that the Vista Elite was one of the best available without spending thousands on a custom job such as his (which was worth about as much as our family car - I remember it had lace-up tires and was supernaturally light). As for the price, I believe my Vista Elite was just under $600 w/tax, but the store owner did give me discounts...so the actual list price I don't recall. I do recall it was a ginormous amount of moolah for a teenager in the early-mid 1980s.

Thank you for the thread, and I hope to resuscitate it and keep it running!

- Richard

Nice resurrection of a thread! Thanks for adding to our stockpile of knowledge on the Vista, Richard :thumb: .

And welcome to BikeForums and C & V!

East Hill

I appreciate it, East Hill. Sad thing is that I let so many years go by without riding. I actually feel like I've deserted a friend. It is such good therapy. I'm no pro, nor even some hopeful amateur, but I know that there is a special connection...a harmony...in cycling. I won't wax eloquently over what y'all already know, but whether it's a $15,000 custom job from some village on the Swiss-Italian border, or a $69.95 Walmart special, I simply love bicycles.

But I prattle on. About my Vista ELITE!!!

I made three treks from Irving, TX to Ardmore, OK (about 107 miles); two on a Volkscycle (yeah, that's right...a Volkcycle, a demo given to me by a Vista vice-president over 30 years ago), and one on this Vista Elite. I loved the Volkscycle; it was a very sturdy platform, and a nice, comfy ride. Add to that the 18 gears and the "shift-on-the-fly" which used some special clutch apparatus to continue spinning the sprockets even when not peddling. But the Vista...it was a racehorse in comparison. I did have to reconfigure the "bump tolerance level", as those 700C wheels were not designed for poor roads (and that comprised most of Oklahoma :lol:)

Other than those of the "cycling world", Vista seems to be entirely unknown to the public. Mention bicycle and two things come to mind: Lance Armstrong and Schwinn. No probs with the first, as he has well earned that status! But SCHWINN????!!!!!!!!! Ok. Perhaps before 1976 or so, Schwinn turned-out some outstanding bikes. I still catch myself perusing through eBay for old Schwinns. But in my humble opinion, Vista was far ahead in quality during the time I rode most (1977 - 1988).

Back to the thread, as that's only appropriate (I suppose I should develop another thread or two for my soapboxes). My Vista Elite (and I've not yet encountered another; please let me know if you find one) has the 631 steel tubing. Not only is it so marked, but as a previous post stated, the diameter of the saddle post (I was taught to call it a saddle) is, indeed, larger. I haven't calibrated it, but I recall trying to put a Fatboy seat on it a few years ago (as happens when I don't exercise), which required a different post due to the unique nature in which the factory saddle is attached, and that Fatboy post just slid right down in there without any hope of tightening. So...that would seem to solve that potential mystery.

It is made in Japan, and proudly marked. When I first laid-eyes on this bike, I recall being simply in awe of the amount of craftsmanship in it. Compared to what I had ridden, and all of them great bikes, this guy was the Porsche. The man from whom I purchased it, the same man who sold me all my bikes (and was a family friend), spent over an hour with me explaining the various details and intricacies of this "racehorse" (as he so called it). He had me bring it by each week for the first month or so, just so he could make any adjustments. This he did at no cost, and offered more in being one of the rare conversationalists who seem to have gone the way of the dodo.

Back at the thread. Sorry. Serial number: ARYG007693. I would like to find-out the date of manufacture. So, if any of y'all know it or how I might get it, then please let me know. I must again stress just how amazed I am as to its functional status after having been left neglected in storage for so many years. It was not even properly hung. It just stood there with two other bikes up against it. Collecting dust. (slap self here :wtf:) I did nothing but clean-off the grime. I did not one single adjustment. Pumped the tires, checked the rims (which were as straight as a laser beam), and rode-off into the night air. Now, it takes a heck of a lot of quality to keep running so magnificently after what I did to it. Absolutely no preparations for storage; it just got chunked in there with a lot of crud I did NOT need. And he had served me so well, no matter what.

To sum up. (Sorry for the oral diarrhea.)

I'm a schmuck for neglecting such a fine piece of craftsmanship which provided me so much joy.
The Vista Elite (c. 1983, serial #ARYG007693) has Araya 631 tubing.
It also has 700C rims with the "euro" style valve stem (I don't recall the real name).
It has the Shimano 600 series gear and brake systems (side pull, not center like the Vista Aero).
It weighs approximately 24 lbs (w/bottle and pump).
During its production, it was one of the highest quality bicycles available under $1,000. My cost was $600 something with tax.


So, for all of those interested in Vistas, I hope we can share some more information on these quality bicycles. If you have not already done so, please view my other pics on my public folder in Picasa Google. The link is in my previous posting.

Thanks again!

- Richard

I've got steakknifesally's frame now (red & black Vista Elite), bought it from him on e-bay. This was a well made bike indeed. The seatpost diameter is 26.2 mm which is the same as my 1973 Sekine. The color is appropriate since I am a georgia bulldogs fan.

I plan to build it up after the holidays with a mixture of Shimano and Campy parts and 27" wheels with Normandy hubs and Weinmann rims.