Fifty Plus (50+) - 50+ Bike Preference?

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badger1
02-18-06, 09:48 AM
So, not a poll, but I often wonder whether there are other 50+ers who find they in fact prefer using an mtb with road tires as their 'all round' bike? I know there's a couple, but ... ? I think it's a kind of odd thing, but I find that I do. Since I re-started riding four years ago (going into my fifth full season, averaging now around 4000kms/yr., a mix of commuting, longer fitness rides on weekends, with some lightish smooth trail riding thrown into the mix), I've been telling myself (and been told by others) 'get/you need a road bike/road-based hybrid' etc. etc. I went so far as to start a thread on this a couple of months ago/got some very good responses. Well, I keep 'trying' (over the past couple of years I've test ridden road bikes (all out, touring, flat bar, hybrid) extensively, borrowed a couple for extended periods, and so on. In other words, in a sense others, and my 'head', tell me to do this -- BUT for whatever reason, I find that I am overall more comfortable, feel more 'secure/stable/in control', and am in fact for practical purposes able to move just as quickly, with no more or less fatigue, on my h/t with 1.5" slicks.
I know this really simply comes down to personal preference etc., but was just curious whether anyone else's experience parallels my own - I think it's a sign of the addictive power of cycling, combined with the fun of participating in this forum community. Cheers.
stapfam
02-18-06, 10:10 AM
I ride mountain bikes by preference, but that is also because I ride them offroad. I do have a couple of road bikes- or could have if I ever bothered to get them up to Ridable condition, But road rides are done on the MTB and it has to be a road ride of over 30 miles for me to change to slick tyres.
Will agree that a road based bike would appear to be better on the roads. But the sturdiness- robustness and build quality of a mountain bike suits me better than a road bike. Mind you- if I were to do more road riding I might change my mind.
Chuck5.2_in_CA
02-18-06, 10:22 AM
I only came into cycling two years ago before that my last time on a bike was 35+ years ago doing my paper route on a 50 pound shwinn. I played competitive tennis until I blew out my wrist and then took up ice skating of all things. But the rink got crowded and I hated running so on a lark I bought a $60 kmart special mountain bike. I road that for a while but got tired of being passed by little kids and Grandma, so I bought a Trek Hybrid, got tired of being passed by Grandpa and 12 year olds so I asked around and got a 20 year old aluminum Trek with oval crankset. Now I could keep up with most Grandpa's and I was addicted ! unfortunately the bike shook like BB King playing guitar. I was bitten by the "Lance factor" and loved the Medone team paint job and my new found cycling friend said tittanium was the way to go! Of course that sealed it for the carbon fiber Medone ! 5,000 miles later I chase down the occasional teen or thirty something but still get passed by those flying in shape Grandpa's. I guess when it comes down to it, I want to go fast at least as fast as I can train my self and not be slowed down by the bike. It was the best purchase in my life !!! ( Not to mention the cool jerseys!!!) Now if it will stop raining for a couple hours I can get back on it instead of typing about it...127 miles this week..want 150 !!!
DnvrFox
02-18-06, 11:01 AM
Why just have one bike?
Two is better. Three is even better. Or more - the more the merrier.
I use my mtn bike with slicks a lot, especially in the winter months, when I dress in warm regular clothes and take a lot of "errand" trips, instead of "duding up."
But, it is a REAL pleasure to get out one of the road bikes and go for a spin. Just a great change. I go a heck of a lot faster, and it is just an amazingly different riding experience. I do have one of the roadies fixed up as a "utility" bike with a rack and panniers.
So, the answer is, GET BOTH kinds of bikes and more.
linux_author
02-18-06, 11:16 AM
- my riding buddy (68 years young) started out on a comfort bike w/Kenda Kross tires... he 'upgraded' to Nashbar 26x1.25 slicks and has since been tearing up the roads (and kicks my butt, too!)
:-)
- i started on a comfort bike but my main rides are now a nice road machine and a cyclocross bike (the comfort bike has been relegated for use by house guests)
- the way i see it, one's choice of bike(s) depends on:
1. fitness level
2. funds
3. road surface preferences
Retro Grouch
02-18-06, 01:08 PM
I ride mountain bikes by preference, but that is also because I ride them offroad. I do have a couple of road bikes- or could have if I ever bothered to get them up to Ridable condition, But road rides are done on the MTB and it has to be a road ride of over 30 miles for me to change to slick tyres.
Will agree that a road based bike would appear to be better on the roads. But the sturdiness- robustness and build quality of a mountain bike suits me better than a road bike. Mind you- if I were to do more road riding I might change my mind.
I'm the opposite of stapfam. I have a mountain bike that I haven't ridden since Father's Day last June. If I had to limit myself to one bike, it would be my road bike.
Do whatever you think is best for you.
I bought a Cannondale Bad Boy Ultra. Mountain bike frame with road rims and tires. I also bought MTB rims and tires for off-road stuff. I love it.
My three bikes are all road. Just got back from a tour in Chile and Argentina using rental hybrid and mountain bikes. Getting back on a road bike felt so-o-o-o good. I doubt if I ever own anything but a road bike. I'm 63.
Al
Dchiefransom
02-18-06, 06:49 PM
As we get older, a lot of us don't "flex" as well as we did before, and the cookie cutter "bike fit" gurus don't have formulas that work for us anymore. They have started making more "road" bikes with a shorter distance from seat to handlebars, so we feel more comfortable. The mountain or comfort bikes already feel this way in their normal configuration. I have a "road" bike like this, and the use of my son's hardtail mountain bike if I want.
Some of us also opt for bikes with more comfortable seating.
zonatandem
02-18-06, 06:49 PM
Still riding road bikes at age 73; just over 100 miles this week.
tlc20010
02-18-06, 07:22 PM
I know this really simply comes down to personal preference etc., but was just curious whether anyone else's experience parallels my own - I think it's a sign of the addictive power of cycling, combined with the fun of participating in this forum community. Cheers.
I'm 64 and started on a Specialized Crossroad comfort. I kept putting narrower and narrower tires on it to help me go faster on paved surfaces. I now ride a Jamis Coda Comp hybrid which I love a lot. I'm about 15-20% faster (and longer) than on the comfort.
Did you ever notice how folks who prefer comforts or hybrids or mtb usually tell others to do whatever feels right to them, but so many of the roadies insist that a road bike is the only thing worth riding. Why do you suppose that is?????
Tim
DnvrFox
02-18-06, 07:31 PM
Did you ever notice how folks who prefer comforts or hybrids or mtb usually tell others to do whatever feels right to them, but so many of the roadies insist that a road bike is the only thing worth riding. Why do you suppose that is?????
Well, I didn't (and don't) insist upon only a road bike. I think any bike is good, and there are different bikes for different purposes. But, I would suggest that:
Many of us have
1. Ridden Mtn Bikes
2. Ridden Hybrids
3. Ridden road bikes
and have reached a conclusion based upon our experiences?
Could that be the answer?
I have never had much experience with a recumbent, but I am definitely NOT opposed to trying one to see how I like it. If I had an extra $1,000 or so I would put one in the stable.
tlc20010
02-18-06, 07:39 PM
Well, I didn't (and don't) insist upon only a road bike. I think any bike is good, and there are different bikes for different purposes. But, I would suggest that:
Ah, but DnvrFox, you are the tolerent exception--as are most folks on the 50+. If you go one some of the other forums, you will find us non-roadies risk being flamed if we suggest that a non-road bike might be a reasonable choice for some riders.
DnvrFox
02-18-06, 07:42 PM
Ah, but DnvrFox, you are the tolerent exception--as are most folks on the 50+. If you go one some of the other forums, you will find us non-roadies risk being flamed if we suggest that a non-road bike might be a reasonable choice for some riders.
You should probably frequent the recreational & family forum, which is loaded with hybrid users! (several years ago, that forum was my idea!)
Sorry, I thought your response was to the previous posts in this thread.
I have a MTB, a Road Bike and a Time Trial bike. I use the Road Bike for riding on the road and the MTB for off road and family recreational riding on the road down at the coast. I started with the MTB on the road but just don't think I could go back. It just feels so much better to be on the road bike when on the road.
I don't commute so I'm not sure which one I'd use if I did. Knowing me I'd probably wind up with a fourth bike.....heck, I'm now toying with going with a compact crank on my road bike and buying an additional road bike geared just for the mountains. Is that sick or what???? Everytime I get another bike I tell myself (and others) this is all I'll ever need.
Digital Gee
02-18-06, 09:22 PM
Well, I just started last June, and I love my MTB. I have had NO problems adjusting to the saddle, the handlebars, or anything else. At 800 miles I replaced the knobbies with slicks, and that felt great. I've got about 1,600 miles or so on the bike now, and other than it being a bit heavier than I would prefer, it's serving me well.
That's not to say I wouldn't love to get something like Trek's 7.6, pretty much a road bike with flatbars, but until my lottery ticket comes up a winner, I'm be happy with what I've got.
roccobike
02-18-06, 09:36 PM
I have a MTB set up for trails, an older MTB set up for multi use paths, and a hybrid that I use for exercise and local trips. I just purchased an older, mid-quality road bike. This last bike is the closest I've ever had to a real road bike, and I really like it. Unfortunately, my neck doesn't, so I'll have to modify it. As has been said before, why limit yourself to one style of bike, especially if you're willing to work with used equipment that cuts expenses.
Ride what you like and morph it as you go if need be. I love my old Trek 830 with 1.5 Armadillos and north Road bars. However, I will say that since buying a used 520 two weeks ago, my riding has both increased in mileage and frequency.
For all the good rugged features of the 830, it is alot heavier than the 520. Thus, I get tired faster. The 520 is truly a bike to grow into for me. It has much of the strength of an MB with the road handling of a roadie. Soon, I'll see how it feels with a different set of bars and a B-67 saddle. I probably wouldn't mind having Ovaltec chainrings on it for better hill work under touring loads - but the simple stuff first...
EDIT: I never used the 830 off-road except lightly for a few months when it was new. It has been my primary all-purpose bike.
serotta
02-19-06, 06:21 AM
Summary time:
Ride a bike because you like it.
Ride as many different bikes as you can afford or borrow.
Ride what makes you happy.
Ride your bike!
Retro Grouch
02-19-06, 07:28 AM
Did you ever notice how folks who prefer comforts or hybrids or mtb usually tell others to do whatever feels right to them, but so many of the roadies insist that a road bike is the only thing worth riding. Why do you suppose that is?????
If somebody asks for opinions and some roady's opinion is that a road bike is the only thing worth riding, how do you think they should respond?
I-Like-To-Bike
02-19-06, 07:41 AM
Did you ever notice how folks who prefer comforts or hybrids or mtb usually tell others to do whatever feels right to them, but so many of the roadies insist that a road bike is the only thing worth riding. Why do you suppose that is?????
Yes. I have noticed. But in the name of self moderation I will keep my opinion about the value of roadie "attitude" driven advice to myself.
GrannyGear
02-19-06, 08:45 AM
Ride what you like and morph it as you go if need be. .
+1.........I have an 87 upright (morally as well as geometrically) racer which has gone through iterations of Mavic, Superbe Pro, Shimano 600, 105 and now Veloce (thank you parts bins and budget friendly ebay). I've had fun with every shifting system known to man (except those Suntour triggers and GripShift). My selling that bike is about as likely as DnvrFox leaving his wife. Then there's the RB-T which has been drop-barred, moustache barred, flat barred. Then there are tires. The Riv. Romulus is still pristine...but not for long!
My point: There is so much variety to cycling (I owned a Rans medium wheel based recumbent for a year) that to get overly stuffy or zealous about one style of bike is to miss other aspects of riding pleasure. Whether down on the aero bar or heads up puttering along in street shoes drinking in the sights.....I wouldn't willingly miss any of it.
In my case, and for bikers on a budget, altering one's ride even a little can expand your cycling experience and help you find what is most suitable for your riding Self.
badger1
02-19-06, 09:01 AM
Hmmm -- lots of interesting responses, as one would expect; as I said originally, was (really!) just curious, primarily because I find my own experience/thought processes so odd! The general tenor here -- ride what you like -- is, of course, the obvious response. On the other hand, my original post was prompted by the fact that so many (bike shops, other riders I've encountered, forum users) say, or imply, that there's something 'wrong' with riding a roadified atb; oh well! Now, if only I can find the money for a Giant XTC carbon frame w/Pace carbon fork -- the ULTIMATE Fred F. Frankenbike bike!!! Love this forum!
lighthorse@eart
02-19-06, 10:44 AM
I have had a lot of people ask me what kind of bike that they should get to ride. My response is always that any bike will do. Certainly if one plans on riding off road then an MTB or hybrid is required.
If you get on your bike and ride for one hour or 1.5 hours or 2 hours then you are getting good exercise. If you make those rides on an MTB with big knobby tires carrying a lot of weight then you will probably go a shorter distance than if you had ridden a lightweight road bike putting out the same level of effort for the same amount of time.
For me it came down to distance covered in the time alloted to train. I rode my Trek 7500 hybrid for several thousand miles and loved it. Then I got a road bike and found myself covering more miles for the same effort. Since I wanted to tour long distances then I drifted into the world of road bikes. Now listen carefully, I did not say that it was easier to cover the longer miles. I am still putting out the same level of effort over a given time. I just end up going farther. Or in Greg LeMond's terms, "It never gets easier, you only go faster."
And I do still ride the 7500, mostly when it is raining/wet. And I still enjoy it.
Nightshade
02-19-06, 10:53 AM
Since what you own & ride is a very personal choice I'll share my
choices as a matter of record.
Bike#1..Schwinn World Tourist with shimano Front freewheel system.
This is my everyday utility bike that due to the FF is ideal in town.
My wife calls it my "Pimp mobile" due to all the stuff I have on it. :D
Bike#2 Bridgestone mixte framed Carmel model city bike. I use this one
for fun rides or if we have a guest to ride with us. Old but smooth as glass
with 6 gears for town use.
Bike#3 Sanwa touring bike. Very well made bike that I converted to a trails
bike to ride the local bike trails to the Mississippi. This bike was a find still in
the box as NOS. :D I changed tires,bars and moved the shifters up to the
bars. Came out really nice. ;)
Bike#4 Worksman PAV trike. I've wanted this trike for a long time and finally
broke down and bought one. This is my "Cadillac" due the way it rides. It's a
heavy trike which goes a long way towards the butter smooth ride. It's not
very fast but it's not supposed to be. This trike is for lazy rides on trails or
country roads in supreme comforts. I plan on installing a sound system this
spring to listen to tunes and old time radio shows as I tootle along the local
rural roads this summer.
:beer: :beer:
Please note that all of these bikes are lugged steel framed older bikes with the
trike being steel also. None of the aluminum junk pedeled today. :mad:
Retro Grouch
02-19-06, 11:07 AM
Please note that all of these bikes are lugged steel framed older bikes with the
trike being steel also. None of the aluminum junk pedeled today. :mad:
That's a pretty strongly held opinion for someone who claims to have never ridden an aluminum framed bike.
Nightshade
02-19-06, 11:34 AM
That's a pretty strongly held opinion for someone who claims to have never ridden an aluminum framed bike.
My opinion is based on a weekend with an aluminum framed trek hybrid and many years
of factory machining experience. Steel has properties that aluminum simply can't match
for bicycles to my mind.
phoebeisis
02-19-06, 12:40 PM
badger1,I have had to make some compromises since I can back to bikes-4 years ago-after being gone maybe 20 years.1st I got a very heavy dual suspension sporting goods store bike-the wide tires and the somewhat upright seating position made me figure I could ride again.The skinny high pressure tires,and bent over position of the road bikes(60's-70's) just killed my gimpy neck.I raised the bar on the cheapo sus bike(extensions) and it worked fine.I then bought a Y-50 carbon frame off ebay,and had a lighter dual sus bike;raised HB etc.
A couple of weeks ago I pulled the old road bike off the hook in the ceiling,and updated it for my gimpy body.I managed to stuff 38mm tires under it(had to shave the front one).It looks really odd ( almost a sacrilege),but it rides great.I still use the MTB more,but it is nice to get a lightweight-fast fix once in a while.Thanks.Charlie
PS It is hard to beat steel for taking the shock out of an unsuspended bike with smallish tires.Maybe carbon can??Aluminum is great on suspended bikes,or big tire bikes(does dent very easily however).
bkaapcke
02-19-06, 12:58 PM
I ride an EZ Sport recumbent. The reason; why have painif you don't need to.
Raketmensch
02-19-06, 07:19 PM
Road bike, road bike, road bike. Wouldn't touch a MTB unless forced to. But that's only what's right for me. What's right for everybody else is what's right for everybody else.
I'm virtually all road (though I have a nice mountain bike), and until a couple of years ago rode my titanium road bike nearly exclusively. Then I bought I cyclocross bike which I've found capable of taking me just about anywhere I point it. Now I ride my Cross-check all the time. I love the go anywhere feeling, and with its beefier tires, I'm not concerned everytime a see a little gravel on the road like I was when I rode on 23mm tires.
Of course, now I've signed up for a fairly intense three-day mountain bike trip, so I guess it's back to riding that bike for at least a while...
babysaph
02-20-06, 01:31 PM
Man I am glad it not just me. I am finding I like riding my mtn bike more. I have smoother tires than the real knobby ones but if I want to hit a field or go off road I can. Exercise is exercise. In fact I can get a better workout pushing the heavier mtn bike. You know it is possible to go slower and still get a better workout.
Grand Bois
02-27-06, 11:14 AM
My rides:
1971 Gitane Tour de France with Northroad bars .
1974 Peugeot PX10 with Moustache bars.
1988 Bridgestone MB-2 with 1.3 slicks.
1993 Trek 930 mtb with 1.5 slicks converted to a single speed.
It's nice to have a variety to choose from. I've been riding nothing but the recently completed single speed lately, but I'm sure I'll go back to the others when the novelty wears off.
All of my bikes are lugged steel, but I can't say that I like steel better than aluminum, because I've never ridden an aluminum bike.
My 58th birthday was yesterday. I told my wife that I'd rather buy my own present from her. I got a Brooks saddle and a wonderful vintage Mavic wheelset instead of clothes I'll never wear.
I have 4 working road bikes (see my signature; the 1960 Capo Sieger is a completely disassembled work-in-progress "project") and 1 mountain bike.
My favorite all-purpose "beater" ride for general transportation, in the rain, at night, for shopping or carrying anything, or anywhere security is an issue, is the 1970 Peugeot UO-8. With its 70PSI 27x1-3/8" knobbies, barcons, and 43-93 12-speed gearing (45-42/13-26), it's great in traffic.
For commuting to work, general recreation, and unladen transportation where parking security is not an issue, my current favorite is the 1959 Capo, which is a traditional Reynolds 531 long-wheelbased road bike. The 55cm C-T frame fits me perfectly, and the 700Cx28 tires give me a some security on real roads with potholes and debris. It looks great and rides great, and my 18-speed 47-104 "half-step-plus-overdrive" gearing (50-42-39 / 13-15-17-19-21-23) covers all but the very steepest hills I encounter. (I plan to replace the 23T low-gear cog with a 24 or perhaps a 25.)
My 1981 Bianchi is my fastest bike, particularly on sprints and climbs, and it is a blast to ride, but its 23mm tires, twitchiness, and harsh ride make it strictly a fair weather friend. I feel much more secure on something with slightly wider tires and a more forgiving frame geometry.
I do like my 1988 "old school" mountain bike, but I dislike having only two hand positions (grips and short end extensions), so I tend to use it mainly offroad.
My bottom line is that I still prefer traditional drop-bar steel-framed road bikes, just as I did in the 1960s.
I ride a road bike (Cannondale Saeco CAD-3), a Fuji Touring bike, and a new Scott Sub30.
Generally, I find that the best bike for me to ride on any given day is my bike. I see others as they ride their own bike. I prefer mine. I have fun. I get a good workout.
This is not to say that I don't have fantasies about other bikes. When it actually comes to riding though, I select the one that awaits me in my own garage. :)
Although I race XC on a hardtail, I find that just a functional expediency. I really prefer riding my Yeti ASX FR/DH bike almost everywhere else. Even grinding up the hills - - just because I know that every other part of the trail is going to be more fun with big, forgiving squishy full suspension :)
My opinion is based on a weekend with an aluminum framed trek hybrid and many years
of factory machining experience. Steel has properties that aluminum simply can't match
for bicycles to my mind.
Utter BS
My opinion is based on a weekend with an aluminum framed trek hybrid and many years
of factory machining experience. Steel has properties that aluminum simply can't match
for bicycles to my mind. Steel does have at least one property aluminum simply can't match: longevity.
Steel does have at least one property aluminum simply can't match: longevity.
I have aluminum bikes that are 20 years old and going strong. how long does longevity need to be? I also have all steel bikes, steel and aluminum combo, and aluminum and carbon fiber: the ride and overall frame quality is dictated by design, not materials.
Trsnrtr
03-01-06, 06:33 AM
I have aluminum bikes that are 20 years old and going strong. how long does longevity need to be? I also have all steel bikes, steel and aluminum combo, and aluminum and carbon fiber: the ride and overall frame quality is dictated by design, not materials.
I agree. Worrying about the longevity of aluminum bikes is rediculous. I know of many many aluminum Treks, Kleins, and Cannondales from the mid-80s that are still on the road. I own an aluminum Trek (1989) that has been through Hades. It was my team bike as a Cat 2 racer in the late 80s and was crashed many times. It even spent some time later in an off-road cyclocross configuration and still exists today as a single speed grocery store runner.
Don't even ask how many steel bikes that I've owned with broken frames in that same period. Okay, six. (one cracked head tube lug, one cracked seat stay lug, one broken rear dropout, one cracked downtube, two cracked bottom bracket lugs...)
Steel vs. aluminum vs. carbon? I own them all! :)
Steel does have at least one property aluminum simply can't match: longevity.It has another that I don't think has been mentioned: If something breaks (or if you want to add anything), you can weld it or braze it back. Much more DIY-friendly.
bkaapcke
03-02-06, 02:06 PM
Dchiefransom has it right. LWB recumbents are the way to go. My choice was a Sun Easy Sport AX, which is cheaper than the rans stratus. All comfort & no pain anywhere. Who can argue with that. bk
DnvrFox
03-02-06, 02:35 PM
Dchiefransom has it right. LWB recumbents are the way to go. My choice was a Sun Easy Sport AX, which is cheaper than the rans stratus. All comfort & no pain anywhere. Who can argue with that. bk
ARGUE, ARGUE, ARGUE, ARGUE!
Dchiefransom has it right. LWB recumbents are the way to go. I didn't know you could get a recumbent in a LWB - - I'd only seen stepsides :)
boozergut
03-02-06, 04:36 PM
I can't see owning just one bike. If I want to get out into the country and see some pheasants, deer, etc (yesterday a bald eagle) I take the hybrid. If I want to really log some miles and burn a lot of calories I use the road bike. I'd like to try a cyclocross bike next to combine the two advantages......
michaelnel
03-02-06, 07:49 PM
56 here, and have just discovered my favorite bike is my new fixed gear bike. Major fun to ride!
GrannyGear
03-02-06, 08:39 PM
As Ezra Pound observed, "Everyone likes the smell of their own farts." In bicycling terms, steel owners often favor steel, and aluminum owners favor theirs, etc. I love my steel bikes. Were I able to afford a carbon, I would gladly love that one, too. And so on.
Personally, the one aluminum bike I've ridden regularly tended to go "klunk" over bumps whereas my steel went "twang". Personally, I much preferred the feeling of twang.
[Hasn't this frame material thing been debated ad infinitum over at Road Cycling section?
cyclezen
03-02-06, 09:03 PM
Generally, I find that the best bike for me to ride on any given day is my bike. I see others as they ride their own bike. I prefer mine. I have fun. I get a good workout.
This is not to say that I don't have fantasies about other bikes. When it actually comes to riding though, I select the one that awaits me in my own garage. :)
(so totally right-on)
+1
now I happen to have a penchant for roadies, but thats not to say I can't enjoy (and often do) a bimble on my own MTBs, on-road and off.
However, I will note that 'comfort' is high on my list of expectations from my machines, and that includes roadie racers as well as daily commuter. The most obvious thing that leads me to my roadies more than anything else are the bars. I find flat MTB bars mostly uncomfortable. With hands on the grips, my elbows are splayed outward and cause tightening and a great loss of comfort around the shoulders and neck.
On a roadie I find myself most often (95% of time) on the hoods which means my elbows are rolled under and comfortably angled, with the shoulders and neck relaxed. So much better.
I've just added those right-angle bar extenders (not sure what they're called) to one MTB, WHAT A RELIEF! Feels very much like riding the hoods on my roadies.
I'll be spending most of my time on them when riding the MTB - gonna add them to my daily ride/commuter as well. Not sure why I waited this long to do this. Only issue with them is the width is subtantially more than the same position on my roadie bars, but I think adapting to the width isn't going to be a big deal.
Update on an earlier post:
This is my old 830 commuting rig. It usually has huge fenders and flaps.
http://i2.tinypic.com/qswgm8.jpg
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