Triathlon - Heart rate and running

Here's a stream of consciousness that details some of my questions... I graduated from PT and now I'm starting to ramp up the leg stuff again... when I first start running and I'm out of running shape, my heart rate is high - say 165-170 when I'm running on the treadmill at 1.0 incline and 7 mph. That's too high for a "training" run, right? So what's the target? Running much slower than 6.5 or 7 mph feels really weird/awkward to me, but am I supposed to slow down so my heart rate comes down? Am I supposed to be in aerobic range or is it okay to be higher? Is the only way to get more efficient to just run more? How much/far/often should I be running to improve my efficiency? When a (real) runner goes out for a moderately paced training run, how high is his/her heart rate?

I know that's a lot, but any information is appreciated. I'm a fish out of water. ;)

I think determining a "training" run speed or training schedule is a case by case basis. I think you should base your training using your target heart rate and consider your fitness level. Here is a website to help you determine what your target heart rate is. http://www.stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml I think you should also determine what your goals are for the run. For example, what do you want your run time to be? A heart rate monitor can be purchased really cheap and is a good investment.

For some people a 6.5 or 7 may be too fast to start out. For others, it may be too slow. I have been running for a long time. Personally, I focus on minute/mile (MPM), as I know how fast I typically run and adjust it to fit my personal goals. I run on the treadmill alot due to the climate where I live. BRRRRRRR.

Here is a link to a treadmill pace chart. You are correct to use the 1.0 incline, as it is more accurate to what your time will actually be running on the road. It also converts the MPH to MPM, in case your treadmill doesn't provide that function. http://www.trinewbies.com/run_treadmill_chart.asp

This website also provides some other charts for swimming and biking in case anyone is interested. http://www.trinewbies.com/

Your first task, Ms. Fish, is to find running shoes that will fit your fins :)

Sounds like you are with running where I am with swimming - otherwise fit (I know you've been swimming) but no longer adapted to this specific exercise. An HR of 165-170 is closer to a race level HR than a training one for every one of the competitive runners I know at work (and these guys will do marathons at barely over 7:00 / mile). When I'm doing my 8-10 mile slower runs on Saturday mornings my HR is down around 135.

In addition to slowing down (you will get used to the slower pace; I did when I got back into running 10 years ago after a long layoff), you might also consider something like running for 10 minutes then walking for a minute; it can greatly reduce the stress on your legs, knees, etc. as you re-adapt.

As to what your heart rate ought to be for various run workout intensity levels, have you ever had your running max heart rate tested? Ever had any lactate threshold testing done for running? This has been very informative in helping me structure my XC ski and bike workouts, and I'm going in tomorrow for a VO2 / Lactate profile for running tomorrow.

Chris - that sounds interesting. Keep us posted on what you find out. To answer your question, no, I've never had any sort of testing done. I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to that stuff. I've always refused to buy a heart rate monitor, but now I'm starting to see some sense in it...

I think I need to buff up on my exercise physiology. It's been over 12 years since I paid any attention to that stuff and I'm woefully behind the times. I like to know the reasons for doing things, y'know?

Chris - that sounds interesting. Keep us posted on what you find out. To answer your question, no, I've never had any sort of testing done. I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to that stuff. I've always refused to buy a heart rate monitor, but now I'm starting to see some sense in it...

I think I need to buff up on my exercise physiology. It's been over 12 years since I paid any attention to that stuff and I'm woefully behind the times. I like to know the reasons for doing things, y'know?

OK; I had the test and the debrief with the physiologist this afternoon. I now have pages of text, graphs, charts and tables, complete with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining how it could be used as evidence against me to support the charge that I'm fat, slow, and out of shape (my apologies to Arlo Guthrie for that blatant paraphrase from `Alice's Restaurant').

Here was the test protocol:

First they take a resting blood lactate level from a drop of blood from my left index finger, the first of many. It's higher (2.1 millimoles) than it should be (1.0 +/- 0.5), suggesting that I'm not as well rested as would like to have been.

Then, an easy warm up walk / run on a treadmill, about 10-12 minutes, until I just barely began a light sweat. Then a few minutes rest while they recorded height, weight, estimated body fat, etc. The good news is that I'm 3 lbs lighter than last year at this time; the bad is that I'm 8 lbs heavier than at the end of tri season last September. Not a good sign.

I get on a different treadmill, put on a heart rate monitor, pinch off my nose with a clip, and put a mouthpiece / breathing tube in my mouth, connected to a computer and gas analyzer for my own personal vehicle emissions test.

The treadmill starts at 4 MPH, and every 3 minutes the tech raises the speed and another tech sticks my left index finger again for another lactate measurement. Heart rate is recorded every 15 seconds or so. Data on oxygen intake and exhalation, CO2 exhalation and various ratios of these are continually computed. The speed tops out at 8 MPH and holds there, and then the platform rises, first to 4% for 3 minutes and then to 6%; I don't make it through this last 3 minute stage. Another lactate sample is taken here. At this point my heart rate is in the mid 180s. The inclination returns to 0% and the speed drops to 3 MPH for 4 minutes while still breathing into the tube to measure recovery, and then a final post-exercise lactate measurement is taken and the test is over. Maximum lactate was 10.2 millimoles.

Results

Peak measured VO2 was 45.4 ml / kg / minute; somehow they estimated my potential max at just over 50.

Aerobic threshold was at 133 BPM;

Anaerobic threshold at 153 BPM and 35.3 ml/kg/min, or 77% of peak VO2. At racing fitness this number would more likely be in the mid 80s.

Respiratory Compensation at 167 BPM and 37.8 ml/kg/min, or 83% of peak VO2. During race season, this value should be 90-95%; off-season values are 80-85%.

My 4-minute post-exercise lactate level was no lower than the level when I stopped the test, further indication that I'm not in racing condition. I'm not terribly suprised at this general conclusion, since work has been so busy that I've only been skiing 1 day a week, done very few high intensity workouts, and only 3 races.

Based on this data, for the next several months my running heart rate zones look like this:

Basic Endurance (level 1-2): 99-132 BPM
Speed Endurance (level 3): 133-152 BPM
Threshold (level 4): 153-160 BPM
Max VO2 (level 5): 161 - 185 BPM

Chris - that sounds interesting. Keep us posted on what you find out. To answer your question, no, I've never had any sort of testing done. I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to that stuff. I've always refused to buy a heart rate monitor, but now I'm starting to see some sense in it...

I think I need to buff up on my exercise physiology. It's been over 12 years since I paid any attention to that stuff and I'm woefully behind the times. I like to know the reasons for doing things, y'know?

OK; I had the test and the debrief with the physiologist this afternoon. I now have pages of text, graphs, charts and tables, complete with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining how it could be used as evidence against me to support the charge that I'm fat, slow, and out of shape (my apologies to Arlo Guthrie for that blatant paraphrase from `Alice's Restaurant').

Here was the test protocol:

First they take a resting blood lactate level from a drop of blood from my left index finger, the first of many. It's higher (2.1 millimoles) than it should be (1.0 +/- 0.5), suggesting that I'm not as well rested as would like to have been.

Then, an easy warm up walk / run on a treadmill, about 10-12 minutes, until I just barely began a light sweat. Then a few minutes rest while they recorded height, weight, estimated body fat, etc. The good news is that I'm 3 lbs lighter than last year at this time; the bad is that I'm 8 lbs heavier than at the end of tri season last September. Not a good sign.

I get on a different treadmill, put on a heart rate monitor, pinch off my nose with a clip, and put a mouthpiece / breathing tube in my mouth, connected to a computer and gas analyzer for my own personal vehicle emissions test.

The treadmill starts at 4 MPH, and every 3 minutes the tech raises the speed and another tech sticks my left index finger again for another lactate measurement. Heart rate is recorded every 15 seconds or so. Data on oxygen intake and exhalation, CO2 exhalation and various ratios of these are continually computed. The speed tops out at 8 MPH and holds there, and then the platform rises, first to 4% for 3 minutes and then to 6%; I don't make it through this last 3 minute stage. Another lactate sample is taken here. At this point my heart rate is in the mid 180s. The inclination returns to 0% and the speed drops to 3 MPH for 4 minutes while still breathing into the tube to measure recovery, and then a final post-exercise lactate measurement is taken and the test is over. Maximum lactate was 10.2 millimoles.

Results

Peak measured VO2 was 45.4 ml / kg / minute; somehow they estimated my potential max at just over 50.

Aerobic threshold was at 133 BPM;

Anaerobic threshold at 153 BPM and 35.3 ml/kg/min, or 77% of peak VO2. At racing fitness this number would more likely be in the mid 80s.

Respiratory Compensation at 167 BPM and 37.8 ml/kg/min, or 83% of peak VO2. During race season, this value should be 90-95%; off-season values are 80-85%.

My 4-minute post-exercise lactate level was no lower than the level when I stopped the test, further indication that I'm not in racing condition. I'm not terribly suprised at this general conclusion, since work has been so busy that I've only been skiing 1 day a week, done very few high intensity workouts, and only 3 races.

Based on this data, for the next several months my running heart rate zones look like this:

Basic Endurance (level 1-2): 99-132 BPM
Speed Endurance (level 3): 133-152 BPM
Threshold (level 4): 153-160 BPM
Max VO2 (level 5): 161 - 185 BPM

We then worked a rough schedule of how often per week and how long running workouts of each of these types should be over the next 3 months.

Sounds like a way cool test... Lots of valuable info to really help your training.

Chris, I started laughing when I read the "circles & arrows" stuff...I have that "song" on my iPod. Anyway, your test seems much more civilized than the way that I determined my Max HR. I just started running as hard as I possibly could up this hill near my house. When the spots in front of my eyes were about the size of dimes, I stopped and looked at my HRM...of course I had to wipe the vomit off to read it :)

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant..."

CJ,
As difficult as it was, at least my version of the test had the better aftertaste.

'Alice's Restaurant' has been a favorite of mine for nearly 30 years; I first heard it as a freshman in college when I started to hang out (and later had my own show) at the campus radio station.

hate to break it to ya cj, but your max hr might have been while you were wiping off your face....it can keep rising after you stop....

you can guestimate your max hr at a track workout on a hot day. or at a longer track workout. max hr running should be about 10bpm higher than max on the bike

Just my 2 cents!

Many triathletes have had success with high frequency training (5X per week) at an effort around the top of level 2 per Chris's scale. Easier said than done for most since we all like the buzz from a higher heart-rate effort :p

Good Luck

my average HR cycling is about 180 with a max of 204.
running average about 184, max also 204.

almost every time i run i max out at 204... but then i just have a super high heartrate... i totally depends on the person - HR to one person is not comparable to another.

i try to keep my training rate down, but (mon-fri) i only have about 45 mins to run/bike so i prefer to push it a little. after dark, i have more time (80-90mins) for lower intensity swimming.

on weekends i try to lengthen my training but average HR over a 2 hour cycle is still about 175.

You are more physically gifted than Lance!

Lance :

Resting heart rate : 32-34 : 60
VO2 Max : 83.8 : 45-50
Max power at VO2 : 600watts : 275-300 watts
Maximum heart rate : 201 : 190-200
Lactate threshold heart rate : 178 : 165-175
Time trial heart rate : 188-192 : 165-175

Start a log write down your heart rate as soon as you wake up!!!! Do not move just get your watch and do it if you get out of bed and start moving it mess it up. This will give you a real base heart rate when you are totally relaxed. Then get one in the middle of your work out/ or your avg. heart rate for the work out, and then when you go to bed (the wake up one is the important one) if you make a log it will be easier for you to actually look and see that it is going down. A good way is swimming by doing reps this also work for workouts on the track. Ex: for me i do 10/15x100s in the pool on the 1:30 so if you swim the 100 in 1:05 you get 25 sec of rest. On the other hand, if you are on the track, my work out is usually 15x200s and whatever i run the 200 in that is the rest. I usually try to hit them in about 30seconds with 30sec of rest.


When i wake up my avg. heart rate is 43-45 and in the middle of my long runs i usually try not to go over 150 but some times I want to go over.