Bicycle Mechanics - Sick of Shimano crap!

I am about fed up with Shimano components. I just ordered a Ultegra triple FD to compliment my entire switch over from 105 componetry. The damn thing just won't work. I have had so much trouble with Shimano since road biking that I am fed up! :mad:

I was wondering how you guys view Campy componetry and if I have a Shimano 12-15 cassette would it work or would I have to do an entire switch..............meaning:

-FD
-RD
-Cassette
-Wheel hub
-BB
-Shifters
-Crank

In other words, the whole kittin kaboodle!

How do you like your Campy's is my question?

To change from Shimano to Campy you have to change everything. The cassette spacing, cable pull by the shifters and derailleur geometry are all different. I have used both on many different bikes. I've never found one to be easier to set up and make work than the other. They both require the same things to work. Proper alignment, proper distance from the chainrings or cassette cogs and proper initial cable tension. I do think Campy shifts a little smoother but I have no complaints with Shimano.

SS

I love my Campy Centaur crank/BB.

I bought the Campy for it's grey anodizing, which exactly matches my frame color. After I bought the crank I fell in love with the way it's made. And that Campy BB is simply incredible. I can not believe how little friction there is.

This is going to ding my pocket but after seeing how these Campy parts look and work wouldn't be satisfied with the Shimano parts I had lined up. I'm going all Campy for this bike. (Nothing against Shimano. I've had good luck with Shimano!)

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/centaur.JPG

You dont need to swap the crank. Just the ders and shifters and hub. Why doesn't somebody make a campy freehub body that fits on a shimano casette?

How does a Front Derailleur not work? Not doubting your view of the matter, just curious as to how it would be incapable of performing the simple task of shoving the chain from one spot to another.

Front derailleurs are always interchangeable.

You dont need to swap the crank. Just the ders and shifters and hub. Why doesn't somebody make a campy freehub body that fits on a shimano casette?

That would be too easy - besides stepping on somebody's toes in the patent office!

Front derailleurs are always interchangeable.

Not quite. You can use any front derailleur with Campy Ergo levers, but Shimano STI levers require specific front derailleurs (because they're indexed).

(because they're indexed

I forget. I'm stuck in frictionville

How do you like your Campy's is my question?

Campy vs. Shimano is definitely a matter of personal preference. There is no right answer.

Here's what I would recommend in your situation (besides revisiting the tuning of your front derailleur). Pick up a set of Ergo levers and a Jtek ShiftMate to use with the rest of your Shimano components (front and rear derailleurs, cassette, and hub). That would enable you to ditch the indexing of the front derailleur, and also see how you like the shape and function of Campy's levers, all without too large an investment. If you then decide to go full Campy, you'll only be out the $35 or so that the ShiftMate costs.

See: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/shiftmate.html

If you have a 10-speed Shimano setup, you should definitely get 10-speed Ergo levers and the #3 (DP003) ShiftMate.

If you have a 9-speed Shimano setup, you have a choice between getting 9-speed Ergo levers and the #3 (DP003) ShiftMate, OR getting 10-speed Ergo levers and the #2 (DP002) ShiftMate.

I built up a road bike with a Campy Chorus Ergo brake-shifter and Campagnolo derailleurs, but everything else is Shimano DA. (Crank is TruVativ, Tektro calipers). The Jtek ShiftMate is the way to do it. Check the Jtek site.

Horses for courses. Campagnolo is very nice all around, but they don't have nearly the selection of cassettes, and if you want to use a touring cassette, that is not as easy as with Shimano.

Change if you want but sometimes what you need is just a painstakenly meticulious setup. I was having all the trouble in the world with a Shimano front derailer that the shop didn't setup properly and I couldn't get setup either. After telling the shop that I was fedup with it and wanted them to fit a friction lever they finnaly took the time to get the indexing working properly mainly by adjusting the mounting of the front derailer untill it was just right.

The fact that it was a 31.8 mm clamp derailer fitted to a 28.6mm seat tube with adaptors didn't help but it worked with 2 of Shimano's plastic spacers rather than just 1.


Regards, Anthony

No not all FD work I guess. I bought a Ultegra Triple 9 spd. which the FD is for both a 10 spd. and 9 for triples. The only problem is the cage is too deep and when positioned properly the inside cage of the FD rubs or better yet presses firmly against the 52-T chain ring. No way to get it to work. I even raised the FD well above the 2 mm space of the outer cage to the 52-T chain ring......guess what? The cage still rubs at times and when I fine tuned it the damn thing would not shift into the 30-T chain ring unless you used different cassette cogs with the 52-42-30T...........Jeez what a nightmare.

Well the online store I bought the FD takes back items within 30 days if not satisfied. I can't figure the life of me why there is no Ultegra FD without so deep of a inner cage.

My 105 FD is nowhere near as deep as this one. The bad thing is, once I placed it on and set it properly, or what I thought, I clipped the cable length and capped and blam! Now the line is too short for my 105 to go back on.

I learned a good lesson here!

Not quite. You can use any front derailleur with Campy Ergo levers, but Shimano STI levers require specific front derailleurs (because they're indexed).

Not really. There are detents that fit between the three rings on a triple but not centered over the middle ring. Only difference is that Campy has more detents. My 9-speed D-A double has no indexing.

Al

It's interesting that the original poster doesn't like the Shimano front derailleur. That's the only Shimano part I like better than Campy.

Al

I am about fed up with Shimano components. .....The damn thing just won't work. I have had so much trouble with Shimano since road biking that I am fed up!
Perhaps you're not setting them up right.

No not all FD work I guess. I bought a Ultegra Triple 9 spd. which the FD is for both a 10 spd. and 9 for triples. The only problem is the cage is too deep and when positioned properly the inside cage of the FD rubs or better yet presses firmly against the 52-T chain ring.

If I'm understanding you correctly this sounds like the outside limit screw needs adjusting.

There is no reason that a Shimano 9-speed triple derailleur should not work with 52-42-30 chainrings if setup properly.

BTW the 10-speed derailleur is designed to run with 53-39-30 chainrings.

Al

No not all FD work I guess. I bought a Ultegra Triple 9 spd. which the FD is for both a 10 spd. and 9 for triples. The only problem is the cage is too deep and when positioned properly the inside cage of the FD rubs or better yet presses firmly against the 52-T chain ring. No way to get it to work. I even raised the FD well above the 2 mm space of the outer cage to the 52-T chain ring......guess what? The cage still rubs at times and when I fine tuned it the damn thing would not shift into the 30-T chain ring unless you used different cassette cogs with the 52-42-30T...........Jeez what a nightmare.

Well the online store I bought the FD takes back items within 30 days if not satisfied. I can't figure the life of me why there is no Ultegra FD without so deep of a inner cage.

My 105 FD is nowhere near as deep as this one. The bad thing is, once I placed it on and set it properly, or what I thought, I clipped the cable length and capped and blam! Now the line is too short for my 105 to go back on.

I learned a good lesson here!

Well to get them to work properly you need to set them as LOW as possible and align it carefully. I was having not too dissimilar problems to you but I can't say I can advise you directly because ultimately I took it to the LBS and someone there finnaly took the time to do it correctly.

From my little experience in adjusting the front derailer you need to consider the HALF shifts and position accordingly. You may have adjusted to the wrong trimming position. Sometimes on the big ring you need to set the stop to allow it to travel a little further than you want (but not too far) so that it can click into the next indexing indent.

Regards, Anthony

There is no reason that a Shimano 9-speed triple derailleur should not work with 52-42-30 chainrings if setup properly.

BTW the 10-speed derailleur is designed to run with 53-39-30 chainrings.

Al

Huh????? Where are you getting this from?

Please let us all know where it is stated that front derailleurs are specific to 9spd or 10spd.
And, please show a source that ties a specific derailleur to a specific chainring set.

I have not seen this and would like to know your source.

Nothing wrong with Shimano components. Perhaps your mechanical skills need fixing.

Please let us all know where it is stated that front derailleurs are specific to 9spd or 10spd.

According to Shimanos literature, the 10 speed front derailleurs have a narrower cage to match the now narrower chain. Whether it makes real difference or not is not within my realm of experience, I'm sticking with 7,8 & 9, single speeds, coaties and fixed.

Nothing wrong with Shimano components. Perhaps your mechanical skills need fixing.

I agree completely.

FD adjustments are simple if you do them in the correct order. The common mistake is to assume you can do them in any sequence, and, in most cases, this is not going to work. The proceedure on the Park Tool site is excellent if you follow it step-by-step and don't skip anything. FD alignment has been covered so many times on this forum and the pitfalls of not doing a correct alignment have been illustrated repeatedly.

Our old friend sydney would have had a field day with all the b/s that's been dispensed in this thread.

According to Shimanos literature, the 10 speed front derailleurs have a narrower cage to match the now narrower chain. Whether it makes real difference or not is not within my realm of experience, I'm sticking with 7,8 & 9, single speeds, coaties and fixed.

This is exactly my point. There are derailleurs that are specific to certain chain widths. There is no reason you can't use a 10spd chain with a derailleur that was originally spec'd for 9 spds (yes, the other way around will give you problems). Otherwise, both front AND rear derailleurs are limited by the maximum chainring, or cog, size - not by the make up of the cassette or the chainring set.

No not all FD work I guess. I bought a Ultegra Triple 9 spd. which the FD is for both a 10 spd. and 9 for triples.

I thought that the Ultegra triple 9-speed and 10-speed FDs were not compatible. I seem to recall that the reason for the 52-39-30 on the 10-speed had something to do with the inability to make the shifts on the 52-42-30 with the 10-speed FD/BB/crank combo.

But maybe that was BS.

My 10-speed double works great and I just set up a 10-speed triple with no trouble last night.

Nothing wrong with Shimano components. Perhaps your mechanical skills need fixing.
I agree. If you have problems with Shimano you are certainly going to have them with Campy.

I am about fed up with Shimano components. I just ordered a Ultegra triple FD to compliment my entire switch over from 105 componetry. The damn thing just won't work. I have had so much trouble with Shimano since road biking that I am fed up! :mad:

I was wondering how you guys view Campy componetry and if I have a Shimano 12-15 cassette would it work or would I have to do an entire switch..............meaning:

-FD
-RD
-Cassette
-Wheel hub
-BB
-Shifters
-Crank

In other words, the whole kittin kaboodle!

How do you like your Campy's is my question?

Before you go knocking Shimano and saying that there stuff is crap and doesn't work.....have you ever considered examining the persons knowledge that's trying to make it work? Are you well read on Shimano and do you totaly understand things such as chainline, bottom bracket length/spacing, and derailleur stop screw adjustment?

Another thing to consider is the fact that annually Shimano gives bike and frame manufacturers the necessary specs for frame construction to maxiimize component performance. It may be that you are putting parts on a frame that doesn't have optimum seat tube angles. Perhaps the frame was made three years before the componentry was introduced? Just because it's a frame doesn't mean that all parts are engineered to work on it. The frame was engineered in a certain manner that may not allow all components to work on it equally well. I worked in the industry and made the annual visits to Shimano when the new components were introduced annually and there were things that changed every year depending upon their new designs and features of the new components. We and the factories that produced our frames and bike changed our frame designs to meet Shimano's optimum suggested performance when we wanted to spec Shimano parts. Let's not go bashing the company that has spent more money and time in component design than all others combined until we ourselves have made that same investment and introduced some of the many great products that they have brought to the market over the past 25-30 years. Enuff said.

No not all FD work I guess. I bought a Ultegra Triple 9 spd. which the FD is for both a 10 spd. and 9 for triples. The only problem is the cage is too deep and when positioned properly the inside cage of the FD rubs or better yet presses firmly against the 52-T chain ring. No way to get it to work. I even raised the FD well above the 2 mm space of the outer cage to the 52-T chain ring......guess what? The cage still rubs at times and when I fine tuned it the damn thing would not shift into the 30-T chain ring unless you used different cassette cogs with the 52-42-30T...........Jeez what a nightmare.

Well the online store I bought the FD takes back items within 30 days if not satisfied. I can't figure the life of me why there is no Ultegra FD without so deep of a inner cage.

My 105 FD is nowhere near as deep as this one. The bad thing is, once I placed it on and set it properly, or what I thought, I clipped the cable length and capped and blam! Now the line is too short for my 105 to go back on.

I learned a good lesson here!

If your FD is still hitting the 52T chainring at the top of the FD stroke your crank, you either need to raise the front derailleur a couple millimeters up the seat tube or your crank is likely spaced too far out and you should probably also be checking your chainline to insure it's not out too far.

Not really. There are detents that fit between the three rings on a triple but not centered over the middle ring. Only difference is that Campy has more detents. My 9-speed D-A double has no indexing.

Al

Right, it's indexing with one trim position between each index point (for a triple). There's a big difference between that and Campy's system, which throws 13 or so clicks into the front shifter and lets you figure it out.

im on my last leg with shimano xtr

Good then send it to me.

I will be the first to admit...............mechanically, just getting into it with no formal training. The FD sold to me was stated as being used on both 9 spd. and 10 spd. triples. There was no chain ring specs. as to which it would work for or not, my fault to a degree for not knowing and being informed.

I have found a 6503 Ultegra triple 9 spd. at my LBS that will work. For those who don't like their LBS.............I have to say, I have one of the best. They worked with the indexing of the 105 FD and got it back right since I don't feel comfortable cabling my bike. In fact, Jenny, the mech. who did this for me did such a great job, it is now almost silent in any gear combo I can go to!

Kudo's to LIberty Bicycles in Asheville, NC!

I still have alot to learn as far as mechanical skills! I lashed out due to my frustration with this damn FD nightmare which seems to go on. As far as Campy vs. Shimano, who knows, there are people in both camps.

Your points are well taken and my Irish temper is subsided for now. Anyone have some good Irish whiskey?

BTW-
I now understand the teeth capacity for the proper FD (Large chain ring teeth - smallest chain ring teeth=!). Learned that from my LBS as well. They have been so helpful. Thanks for all who listened, or actually read my rant. I needed to vent somewhat.

I need a mech. school but don't want to travel to get it. Anyone know of schools in the NC area?

I will be the first to admit...............mechanically, just getting into it with no formal training. The FD sold to me was stated as being used on both 9 spd. and 10 spd. triples. There was no chain ring specs. as to which it would work for or not, my fault to a degree for not knowing and being informed.

I have found a 6503 Ultegra triple 9 spd. at my LBS that will work. For those who don't like their LBS.............I have to say, I have one of the best. They worked with the indexing of the 105 FD and got it back right since I don't feel comfortable cabling my bike. In fact, Jenny, the mech. who did this for me did such a great job, it is now almost silent in any gear combo I can go to!

Kudo's to LIberty Bicycles in Asheville, NC!

I still have alot to learn as far as mechanical skills! I lashed out due to my frustration with this damn FD nightmare which seems to go on. As far as Campy vs. Shimano, who knows, there are people in both camps.

Your points are well taken and my Irish temper is subsided for now. Anyone have some good Irish whiskey?


Yeh, temper can get in your way at times. I know mine has. Hey, so you are human ;-)

Thanks for having the guts to publish the truth about how this played out. I admire you for that and you deserve credit for your honesty.

So, would you settle for a Guinness?

If it helps, this is how I set up a front derailleur. Loosen the limit screws. Click the shifter until it is in the position that will have the cable untensioned (small chain ring position.) Tighten the low limit screw until it makes contact. Thread the cable and take all the slack out of it. Tighten the screw that holds the cable to the derailleur arm. Spin the crank and shift to the large ring. Tighten the high limit screw until it makes contact. That's it. That will get the front derailleur working as it should almost every time, Campy or Shimano, double or triple.

BTW-
I now understand the teeth capacity for the proper FD (Large chain ring teeth - smallest chain ring teeth=!). Learned that from my LBS as well. They have been so helpful. Thanks for all who listened, or actually read my rant. I needed to vent somewhat.

I need a mech. school but don't want to travel to get it. Anyone know of schools in the NC area?

Been there with the frustration!!!!

REI has a pretty good one-day class every so often. Check for a location near you on REI.com.

BTW-
I now understand the teeth capacity for the proper FD (Large chain ring teeth - smallest chain ring teeth=!). Learned that from my LBS as well. They have been so helpful. Thanks for all who listened, or actually read my rant. I needed to vent somewhat.

I need a mech. school but don't want to travel to get it. Anyone know of schools in the NC area?

Check to see if any tech schools in your state have a mechanics program. Might be a possibilty.

Put your zip code in this link. Many shops are running 12 our, day long and two day "Park Tool School" courses and there may be one within a decent drive from where you are located. http://www.parktool.com/wheretobuy/localresults.asp?c=submit&zip=Enter+US+Zip&province=&pts=yes&imageField22.x=29&imageField22.y=5

Also the best shop in your area is Epic Cycles in Black Mouontain owned by Allan Hightower. He's a former product guru and industry inside man that worked for Dia Compe USA and then Cane Creek when it changed names. He was also a product tech guy for Weinmann and Sun/Ringle. His staff is very knowledgeable and if you like good hard trail riding they have an awesome group mountain ride on Wednesdays.

I've had it with Shimano FD's and so I went with... Suntour.
Actually, I've had no trouble with Shimano FD's, I just went with a SunTour when I built up this bike 11 years ago because
(1) we had it around the shop
(2) it was a very good derailler, whether Suntour had recently gone down or not
(3) I was building a triple drivetrain on a road bike, and such componentry wasn't easily available then
(4) using friction shifting (down-tube shifters, later bar-end) for the FD
http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Raleigh_aluminum/IMG_1537--XTR_cobbled_crank.jpg

Huh????? Where are you getting this from?

Please let us all know where it is stated that front derailleurs are specific to 9spd or 10spd.
And, please show a source that ties a specific derailleur to a specific chainring set.

I have not seen this and would like to know your source.

Shimano:

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441770448&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302040866&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181426&bmUID=1140973399244

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/technical_service/faq_s/compatibilty_charts.-MainContent-0005-DownloadFile.tmp/Front%20drive%20road%20compatibility.pdf.pdf

Actually the 10-speed Ultegra crankset is 52-39-30, it's the D-A that's 53-39-30. The front derailleurs are designed to run best in their specific groups. The depths and widths of the rails are not the same as the 9-speed groups. I don't mean to say that you can't make one group work with another but when mixing 9-speed and 10-speed components that it's going to work better if you have the specific derailleur for the group. I suspect that a 9-speed derailleur will work better with a 10-speed crankset than the other way around because the 9-sp is wider. And several forum posters have reported using 9-speed front and rear derailleurs successfully with 10-speed cranksets, but I've also seen reports of problems trying to make a 10-speed front derailleur work with a 9-speed crankset.

Al

You dont need to swap the crank. Just the ders and shifters and hub. Why doesn't somebody make a campy freehub body that fits on a shimano casette?

What utter nonsense. If you want Campy shifters and derailleurs, then buy those. You do not have to use a Campy hub or even a Campy cassette.

You can use a Shimano hub and you can use an American Classic CAssette or a Wheels Mfg. CAssette ( both are available at excel sports), or you can use a Shimano cassette with a new spacer set ( replace the shimano spacers with campy compatible spacers).

You can even use a Shimano Cassette with Campy shifters and derailleurs by installing Jtek Shiftmate at a cost of about $35.

If you do not want to replace the rear derailleur then you can run Campy shifters with Shimano Derailleurs and CAssettes - agian by installing a Jtek Shiftmate (peterwhitecycles.com).

There is NO compatibility issue with front derailleurs - the Campy shifter will shift any FD.

I have and use all of these items and they work perfectly well when properly adjusted.

Shimano:

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441770448&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302040866&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181426&bmUID=1140973399244

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/technical_service/faq_s/compatibilty_charts.-MainContent-0005-DownloadFile.tmp/Front%20drive%20road%20compatibility.pdf.pdf

Actually the 10-speed Ultegra crankset is 52-39-30, it's the D-A that's 53-39-30. The front derailleurs are designed to run best in their specific groups. The depths and widths of the rails are not the same as the 9-speed groups. I don't mean to say that you can't make one group work with another but when mixing 9-speed and 10-speed components that it's going to work better if you have the specific derailleur for the group. I suspect that a 9-speed derailleur will work better with a 10-speed crankset than the other way around because the 9-sp is wider. And several forum posters have reported using 9-speed front and rear derailleurs successfully with 10-speed cranksets, but I've also seen reports of problems trying to make a 10-speed front derailleur work with a 9-speed crankset.

Al


Marketing people love folks like you. All any of that really says, if you take the time to read it carefully, is that you need a ten speed chain to work properly with the FD that is designed for a ten speed chain. To upgrade 9spd>10spd all you need are three things - chain, shifters, and cassette. This has been accomplished successfully a zillion times and it's been covered many times on this forum. Shimano would LOVE to sell you a new FD and crankset, too, but it's just not necessary. Yes, once you do go to the narrower cage FD then you ARE going to need do the complete upgrade (again, Shimano LOVES you). If you feel the need to spend the additional $300 (for Ultegra - to make it "all" 10spd), then more power to you. And, if your crank upgrade converts you from Octalink to Hollowtech, then you can add on more for the new bottom bracket you'll be buying. Those compatability charts are really nice for a salesperson to pull out and say, "Well, you really need to buy a new crankset, FD, and bottom bracket to do the upgrade from 9>10spd properly. See, it's right here (points at chart)". Cyclists that do their homework know better. You'll notice that the chart does not show the case of the well known upgrade path (chain, shifters, and cassette only). Why do you think that is?

The case of trying to use 9spd components with a narrow cage (i.e. 10spd) FD is a bit silly. Again, it's all about the chain. If you use a 10spd chain, then it's likely ok. With a 9spd chain, then yes, it's likely to give problems. Yup, once you've purchased that narrow cage FD then you are in for the whole tamale and using any 9spd components makes no sense (what was the point of the upgrade?).

[QUOTE=cascade168]Marketing people love folks like you. All any of that really says, if you take the time to read it carefully, is that you need a ten speed chain to work properly with the FD that is designed for a ten speed chain. To upgrade 9spd>10spd all you need are three things - chain, shifters, and cassette. This has been accomplished successfully a zillion times ]

And maybe you should go back and read my post instead of jumping to conclusions.

I said that "several forum posters have reported using 9-speed front and rear derailleurs with 10-speed cranksets". My point was that it doesn't work well the other way around, 10-speed derailleurs on a 9-speed triple crankset, which is what the original poster seems to have tried. No one else was talking about 9-speed derailleurs on a 10-speed crankset. You have completely misread my post and sidetracked the thread.

And I have said in many previous posts that all you need to upgrade from 9-speed to 10-speed are shifters, cassette, chain, that's common knowledge. It's just not what this thread is about.