View Full Version : What do you think of this?
sbhikes
03-01-06, 08:28 PM
What do you think of this white line? Is it evil? Is it benign? Does it have anything to do with bicycle advocacy?
ceridwen
03-01-06, 08:29 PM
Looks like it has nothing to do with bikes and everything to do with parking. But maybe I'm seeing it wrong.
duane041
03-01-06, 08:31 PM
What do you think of this white line? Is it evil? Is it benign? Does it have anything to do with bicycle advocacy?
It is evil. It should be shot.
DCCommuter
03-01-06, 08:57 PM
That white line offends me. I'm going to go riot now.
Paul L.
03-01-06, 09:57 PM
That little innocent white line happens to be the reason thousands of cyclists are hit by drivers everyday who happen to be blind in their right eye and can see only objects directly in front of them. What's more car tires have a tendency to shift knives, tacks, chainsaws, toxic waste, and oil over that innocent looking little line to sabatoge cyclists everywhere! I am so offended! Moderator!!!! Moderator!!!! :):)
unkchunk
03-01-06, 11:45 PM
Is that all it takes? Just a simple white line in the road prevents litter. I can't believe it, but the photo...
CommuterRun
03-01-06, 11:47 PM
It looks like a road shoulder in a residential neighborhood with a 25 mph speed limit. Looks like a fairly dangerous place to ride, except for people that like moving to the left to avoid parked cars and dodging cars pulling out of drive ways.
Dogbait
03-02-06, 12:06 AM
Is this bait or chum?
D
Bekologist
03-02-06, 12:07 AM
That line, or one of its kin, seems to be following me everywhere I ride.
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there couldn't be pine needles up ahead making that line even more dangerous.
77Univega
03-02-06, 01:02 AM
What do you think of this white line? ...Does it have anything to do with bicycle advocacy? --- I think the white line is to designate an auto parking lane. The 25 MPH speed limit facilitates bicyclists sharing the traffic lane.
slagjumper
03-02-06, 01:15 AM
Looks like the one in my town. Pittsburgh only has one bike lane and it runs along most of the length of a 6 mile residentail street. Plenty of line of sight for driveways. Not evil. Not useful for commuting. Likely does not make motorists think ill of bicyclists, since there probably is never much of a traffic load.
Main difference that I can see is that the one in Pittsburgh has "Bike Lane" painted at irregular intervals and a few signs. Without that, how can you even tell that it is a bike lane vs a parking lane.
Daily Commute
03-02-06, 01:48 AM
What do you think of this white line?
Some of my best friends are white lines.
LittleBigMan
03-02-06, 07:22 AM
What do you think of this white line? Is it evil? Is it benign? Does it have anything to do with bicycle advocacy?
As long as the paint on it is not 100 layers thick, so that it becomes a longitudinal speed-bump, I'm ok.
:)
LittleBigMan
03-02-06, 07:24 AM
That line, or one of its kin, seems to be following me everywhere I ride.
I knew it!
Now I know where I get that occasional feeling from...
What kind of tires do I need to ride near that white line?
Not much if its supposed to be a bike lane. Its OK the first 100 feet. But any biker who felt obligated to ride to the right of the line would be in the door zone of the car in the top right of the picture. If a biker has to leave a bike lane to be safe, why have a bike lane at all? This kind of poor design gets worse as SUVs get bigger. BTW, I'm not opposed to all bike lanes (yet), but ones on 25 MPH roads that put the biker right next to doors -- what's the point?
sbhikes
03-02-06, 07:42 AM
Is this bait or chum?
D
Bloodworms.
Bekologist
03-02-06, 08:11 AM
Your line and my line probably meet up and comiserate on how to throw riders unprepared for their roadway nuance.
Your line and my line probably meet up and comiserate on how to throw riders unprepared for their roadway nuance.
No. Your line allocates much more space. Her line would put a biker right in a door zone. If you have to leave a bike lane in order to be safe, what's the point of a bike lane?
sbhikes
03-02-06, 08:19 AM
My line would not put you in the door zone. It would put you underneath a parked car--if you stayed to the right of it.
My line would not put you in the door zone. It would put you underneath a parked car--if you stayed to the right of it.
Exactly the problem... this seemingly innocent white line perpetuates the heinous notion that parked cars have an obligation to stay out of the way of bicycles.
Jalopy
HiYoSilver
03-02-06, 11:02 AM
It's just a parking lane indicator. You're better be left of the line if you don't want to be doored. I would think bikers would cross the line many times during a ride.
Now all you need is a bumper sticker dispenser box, like the dog poop bag dispensers, so you can just grab a "dangerous driver" sticker to slap on the windowshield of those those who get out of their cars without looking back and those who park across the line.
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 11:09 AM
If you have to leave a bike lane in order to be safe, what's the point of a bike lane?
By George, I think you've got it! Though of course the context in which you intended this statement to apply is specific to door zone bike lanes. However, it applies in many more instances in all bike lanes. Cyclists often have to leave a bike lane in order to be safe (not to mention other valid reasons), depending on current conditions and factors. Your rhetorical question applies to all bike lanes, not just door zone bike lanes.
In other words, since cyclists often have to leave all bike lanes in order to be safe or for many other valid reasons, what's the point of any bike lane? Because most cyclists don't know enough about traffic cycling to recognize all the times they should leave bike lanes in order to be safe?
But Univega and others are right. The stripe in Diane's picture simply demarcates a parking lane and has nothing to do with cycling per se.
Looks like a shoulder line to me. I'd certainly ride left from it, except for expressways here, where I'm supposed to ride right from the shoulder line.
Paul L.
03-02-06, 11:36 AM
In other words, since cyclists often have to leave all bike lanes in order to be safe or for many other valid reasons, what's the point of any bike lane? Because most cyclists don't know enough about traffic cycling to recognize all the times they should leave bike lanes in order to be safe?
.
Average times I have to leave the bike lane each day on 25 mile commute due to debris or potholes- once.
Average times I have to switch lanes car commuting in traffic due to debris or potholes - once.
on bike average speed 18.7 mph.
Hmmmmmm.
That being said none of the bike lanes I use allow parking to the right of them. Although if they did that would clean the bike lane wouldn't it? :)
noisebeam
03-02-06, 11:43 AM
Average times I have to leave the bike lane each day on 25 mile commute due to debris or potholes- once.
I think HH is refering to more than just debris.
I leave the BL about 4x per day due to debris or surface condtion (including one spot with a manhole cover recessed 1" below pavement) There is also a flush manhole cover in the BL on a right turn I make, so I make it wide outside of the BL. There is another spot that always has landcaping (1" diameter) rocks due to folks waiting for bus kicking them to pass the time. The other places are more dynamic.
But I leave the BL well over a dozens time per 8.5mi commute due to all reasons combined, including destination positioning and for one 100yrd stretch a door zone.
Al
From the photo, it appeared that there was about 18 inches to the left of the parked car. I've seen BLs with about this same amount of space.
So, its a perfectly innocent white line. Unless you live somewhere that it could be mistaken for a BL. In which case its a hazard trap for novice bikers trying to follow the letter of the law
Going one step further, what does the white line do even as a parking stripe? Cars are already required to park within 18 inches of the curb. So the only thing the line adds is a size restraint -- don't park your semi here? -- don't park your caterpillar tractor? Don't park your Hummer? What?.
Domhannic
03-02-06, 11:55 AM
The thin line between sanity and insanity marks the dreamer and the doer as a person of action. Go figure!
noisebeam
03-02-06, 11:56 AM
Going one step further, what does the white line do
Perhaps it help with traffic calming as there are rarely vehicles parked?
Al
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 11:59 AM
Because most cyclists don't know enough about traffic cycling to recognize all the times they should leave bike lanes in order to be safe?
Average times I have to leave the bike lane each day on 25 mile commute due to debris or potholes- once.
Average times I have to switch lanes car commuting in traffic due to debris or potholes - once.
on bike average speed 18.7 mph.
Thank you for making my point. There are many reasons to leave a bike lane besides debris or potholes, which you seem oblivious to. This is typical of bike lane supporters, who like them because they think they're safe, and feel comfortable riding in them continuously on a 25 mile commute, except maybe for an occasional exception for debris or a pothole. What you don't seem to realize is how staying in the bike lane makes you more vulnerable to get hit from cross traffic. During that 25 mi commute, how many driveway/alley/entrance intersections does that bike lane cross? Count 'em. At each one, how aware are you of traffic than can potentially cross your path in front of you, or into you, at each of those minor intersections, as you go by at 20+ mph just a few feet from the edge of the roadway (little to no escape space)?
How often does cross traffic cut you off, or come close to doing so? Ever consider the role of your lane position in those situations, the lane position dictated by the bike lane at the outside edge of the road where normally only right turn traffic should be found? In all those instances it's easy to blame the motorist. After all, you're in the bike lane. But does that really make you safe?
That being said none of the bike lanes I use allow parking to the right of them. Although if they did that would clean the bike lane wouldn't it?
No, it's high traffic speeds that blows the debris out of the way. The low speeds used while getting in and out of parking wouldn't have sufficient sweeping effect to clean the pavement.
Whatever the line is intended for, it doesn't look like it would work. For cyclists, it puts you in the door zone. As a parking line, why would you need it? Just park 12 inches from the curb like they say in the manual. And why would you park at the end of a driveway?
At best, the line is like instruction booklets that warn you to turn off the blender before putting your hand in it. More likely, the municipality was burning up federal or state grant money on a worthless project.
No matter what, it's a total waste of tax dollars and hence, EVIL.
recursive
03-02-06, 12:18 PM
The line confuses me. I don't understand what it means. If I saw it, I would probably ignore it. I don't think it's evil. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with bikes.
slagjumper
03-02-06, 12:33 PM
I ignore the pretty paintings on the street and the funny noises that come from cars when I am in front of them. I figure that some industrious teens got a hold of some inverted tip spray cans and went wild. Is it art or something?
I tend to focus on staying 4 feet away from parked cars, and avoiding comming to an abrupt stop against metal or concrete objects. I'd like to see the lines in day-glow green. More colors and symbols would be cool, like hearts, arrows, cups, Xs and sunbursts.
Paul L.
03-02-06, 12:38 PM
I think HH is refering to more than just debris.
I leave the BL about 4x per day due to debris or surface condtion (including one spot with a manhole cover recessed 1" below pavement) There is also a flush manhole cover in the BL on a right turn I make, so I make it wide outside of the BL. There is another spot that always has landcaping (1" diameter) rocks due to folks waiting for bus kicking them to pass the time. The other places are more dynamic.
But I leave the BL well over a dozens time per 8.5mi commute due to all reasons combined, including destination positioning and for one 100yrd stretch a door zone.
Al
My point mostly was that some bike lanes do not fall into his generalization as mine don't. On the bike lanes I frequent I can usually avoid the manholes without getting out of the lane due to the width of the bike lane. There is one spot where there is a pavement lip after a bridge where I either have to curb right or enter traffic left momentarily but this is fairly easy to negotiate. I guess my point is I don't find the debris or obstacles in the bike lanes I frequent debilitating or inconvenient enough to even complain about. Of course I do ride with Kevlar belted tires so I am not as concerned with small rocks and stuff but that is mostly a decision I go with anytime as I hate flats. A person riding with slightly larger tires would never even have to leave the bike lanes I frequent I am willing to swerve a little within the lane to use skinny tires though..
My main point is that not all bike lanes are evil and if we are to get huffy over something bike lane related why not work on making good ones and in places where we shouldn't have them advocate for getting rid of them. Perhaps we could work on getting the city to maintain existing lanes. That is my point. For some reasons some Traffic Engineers think these things are a good idea. Are their ideas based solely on trying to get cyclists out of the way of cars or are they trying to work out the best solution for everybody? Are some engineers better than others? I am just saying there are too many variables to say all bike lanes are bad and all bike lanes are good. It seems like some people spend every second in the advocacy forum completely bent on declaring all bike lanes bad when some lanes seem to work for some people in real life while others don't. Personally I see a lot more mountain bikes and such using the bike lanes than skinny tired road bikers, the bike lanes are completely suitable for those people who traffic engineers perhaps consider the majority maybe? Anyway, just saying it is a little more complex than all bike lanes are bad or all bike lanes are good.
Paul L.
03-02-06, 01:08 PM
Thank you for making my point. There are many reasons to leave a bike lane besides debris or potholes, which you seem oblivious to. This is typical of bike lane supporters, who like them because they think they're safe, and feel comfortable riding in them continuously on a 25 mile commute, except maybe for an occasional exception for debris or a pothole. What you don't seem to realize is how staying in the bike lane makes you more vulnerable to get hit from cross traffic. During that 25 mi commute, how many driveway/alley/entrance intersections does that bike lane cross? Count 'em. At each one, how aware are you of traffic than can potentially cross your path in front of you, or into you, at each of those minor intersections, as you go by at 20+ mph just a few feet from the edge of the roadway (little to no escape space)?
How often does cross traffic cut you off, or come close to doing so? Ever consider the role of your lane position in those situations, the lane position dictated by the bike lane at the outside edge of the road where normally only right turn traffic should be found? In all those instances it's easy to blame the motorist. After all, you're in the bike lane. But does that really make you safe?
No, it's high traffic speeds that blows the debris out of the way. The low speeds used while getting in and out of parking wouldn't have sufficient sweeping effect to clean the pavement.
Vulnerable? What is your definition of the word vulnerable? I would not define it as accident free for 15000 miles and 4 years of commuting in an urban environment. How much risk can I be in if I haven't seen a problem with it yet? I cross hundreds of parking lot entrances crossroads and driveways in the course of 1 commute. I continually have people stop to let me by in areas where the bike lane should get regularly cutoff by right turning drivers as you point out (I do assume they are going to cut me off by the way but find that happens rarely). I fail entirely to see how I have made your point. Your point as I see it would be that All bike lanes are a hazard due to the fact that they are all filled with debris or other obstructions that makes the cyclist have to weave in and out of traffic due to lane obstructions. Your point is that no one sees anyone in a bike lane and it is extremely dangerous to ride in one due to the fact that there is a high likelyhood a car entering the roadway will not see you and strike you much as they would a sidewalk riding cyclist. I fail to see how I have made your point.
As far as safety before you put words in my mouth or assume why I like bike lanes let me tell you what I really think and not what you speculate I think. People honk and yell at me less in the bike lane, I find this more relaxing and enjoyable. I can ride in the road, I can even ignore the bike lane but will my ride enjoyment increase? Probably not. I have no problem taking the straight lane in the freeway entrances on the frontage road (which happens to be the only place people honk or tell me off anymore and even that is really rare). In a word, I do not make your points, I do not fit into your pidgeon hole. Please do not put me there. Please accept that bike lanes work for some experienced cyclists and perhaps not for others. Of course writing this is useless as you will either skim over it or dismiss my thoughts as those of a clueless Bike Lane supporter, or someone who doesn't really know or hasn't seen the light. Or perhaps you will cut a little piece out of it and comment about how I made your point again, well so be it. Sometimes I suppose arguing with a wall can make you realize things you hadn't thought of before so it is not entirely time lost.
Incidentally I regulary ride 55 mph 2 lane highways with no shoulder so it is definitely not a fear issue.
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 01:43 PM
Diane, why did you post this photo? What do you think the stripe designates?
sbhikes
03-02-06, 05:10 PM
I wasn't sure what it designates. I was hoping I would find out.
I'd like to see the lines in day-glow green. More colors and symbols would be cool, like hearts, arrows, cups, Xs and sunbursts.
You mean like this?
We have a line exactly like that on a three-lane road with a 35mph speed limit. I always assumed it was a bike lane, and I'd scratch my head when I saw signs that said "No Parking Tuesdays 4am-6am for street cleaning" and people would park there, as if bike lane and car parking could coexist in the same place (or, more likely, we made a bike lane, but screw those hippies, we need more parking).
It never would have occurred to me that it wasn't a bike lane. Whoever heard of a parking lane?
I'm feeling dumb now for riding in it.
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 05:37 PM
I wasn't sure what it designates. I was hoping I would find out.
Are you convinced it is designating a parking lane now?
Exactly the problem... this seemingly innocent white line perpetuates the heinous notion that parked cars have an obligation to stay out of the way of bicycles.
Jalopy
:D :D :D :D :D :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
sbhikes
03-02-06, 06:45 PM
Are you convinced it is designating a parking lane now?
No, I am not.
And if it were, would it offend you less somehow than a bike lane?
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 06:55 PM
Are you convinced it is designating a parking lane now?
No, I am not.
You're the woman (http://www.lyricstime.com/cat-stevens-hard-headed-woman-lyrics.html) Cat Stevens has been looking for, Diane.
One of the clues is the relative narrowness of the stripe. Looks like it's 4". Standard BL stripe is 6". The other clue is lack of a BL signs. Finally, it happens to demarcate exactly the space where cars should be parked. What else could it be?
sbhikes
03-02-06, 07:11 PM
It could be a traffic calming device. They're all the rage right now, it is new, and half a dozen houses on this street have Slow Down Santa Barbara signs in the front yard. It is also connected to my street which has traffic calming devices. Seems they've been trying out several different kinds. Mini-roundabouts, chicanes, bulbouts, bumps, road narrowing, restriping...
But you did not answer my question: does this line offend you any more or less than a bike lane?
One of the clues is the relative narrowness of the stripe. Looks like it's 4". Standard BL stripe is 6". The other clue is lack of a BL signs. Finally, it happens to demarcate exactly the space where cars should be parked. What else could it be?
Is that a hard and fast rule in CA? Can I get out my ruler and check the roadbed? No really -- have you been down Harbor Drive? There's many places where its unclear whether the stripe is demarcating a BL, a road edge, or a parking area. Mostly there's no signs, though they do appear randomly from time to time. Now that I think about, don't think they've bothered to paint the "Bike" symbol anywhere. There's a ton of weird anomalies, sometimes leaning backwards to accomodate the biker, and other points forgetting he/she's even there. That road could be a poster child for an anti-BL campaign.
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 07:19 PM
Since the line does not discriminate by class (which a bike lane stripe does), but by use, it's not offensive to me.
In other words, if the rightmost lane was designated Slow Lane, i wouldn't have a problem with it. If it is designated Convertible Lane or Pickup Lane or Tractor Lane or Truck Lane or Bus Lane or Taxi Lane or Bike Lane, then I do have a problem with it, unless it's in a very specific situation where that type of classification makes sense with respect to how vehicles of that type are always used there (which is the case for all Truck Lanes, Bus Lanes and Taxi Lanes that I know of, and is not the case for almost all Bikelanes that I know of).
Helmet Head
03-02-06, 07:22 PM
Is that a hard and fast rule in CA? Can I get out my ruler and check the roadbed? No really -- have you been down Harbor Drive? There's many places where its unclear whether the stripe is demarcating a BL, a road edge, or a parking area. Mostly there's no signs, though they do appear randomly from time to time. Now that I think about, don't think they've bothered to paint the "Bike" symbol anywhere. There's a ton of weird anomalies, sometimes leaning backwards to accomodate the biker, and other points forgetting he/she's even there. That road could be a poster child for an anti-BL campaign.
Yes, if it's not a 6" stripe, legally, it's not a bike lane. That applies to all of the U.S., not just CA.
Also, the lane itself has to be at least 4' wide for it be a legal bike lane.
In many places they switch from a legal 4' wide with 6" stripe bl to something more narrow with a 4" stripe, perhaps hoping that cyclists will use it anyway, even though technically it's not a bike lane. But lack of signage and stenciling is a good clue that it's not a bl too.
sbhikes
03-02-06, 07:26 PM
Since the line does not discriminate by class (which a bike lane stripe does), but by use, it's not offensive to me.
In other words, if the rightmost lane was designated Slow Lane, i wouldn't have a problem with it. If it is designated Convertible Lane or Pickup Lane or Tractor Lane or Truck Lane or Bus Lane or Taxi Lane or Bike Lane, then I do have a problem with it, unless it's in a very specific situation where that type of classification makes sense with respect to how vehicles of that type are always used there (which is the case for all Truck Lanes, Bus Lanes and Taxi Lanes that I know of, and is not the case for almost all Bikelanes that I know of).
Can you hear Tchiachovsky's dance of the sugar plum fairies and see that little ballerina in the music box? I sure can, the way he's danced around the lines with this plum of an answer!
.243-4-lyfe
03-02-06, 07:31 PM
all linnes should be replaced by small LED's imbedded into the roadway and then covered with fresh asphalt so they are completely covered and invisible!
In many places they switch from a legal 4' wide with 6" stripe bl to something more narrow with a 4" stripe, perhaps hoping that cyclists will use it anyway, even though technically it's not a bike lane. But lack of signage and stenciling is a good clue that it's not a bl too.
Can you cite the legislation for this (National or CA)? This sounds worth printing out.
Four feet? Its rare to get even 3 feet. There's a place down here where they've plastered the "Bike Lane" icon over a narrow BL so that part of the stencil falls outside the lane, lol.
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.