Touring - You, your money, and the Trek 520, LHT, and Atlantis

It seems to me that resale value is gotten from, rarity, ethos, quality and beauty, and therefore even though the Atlantis has double the upfront cost you also have the best chance of getting all your money back and then some when considering resale in 15 years. Not to mention the difference in value in the riding over the 15 years.

So what’s your opinion on buying the bike today, and riding it a lot for 15 years; does the Atlantis have better potential for appreciation at resale than the Trek 520 or LHT? Why?

You're going to sell your best friend of 15 years?

In 15 years are you going to worry about resale value?

The POTENTIAL value of all three bikes will be close to nil in 15 years anyway.

Who wants to buy a 1990 Bottecchia for more than $250 today?

Hey, the threshold for thinkin up this kinda **** on the interweb is nonexistant. I've posted far worse questions.


Only thing that pops into my braind:

If resale decades down the road is honestly a concern of yours, buy the Atlantis and keep it in good shape. Those frames will always sell for good money, but at some point "crazy" technological advances (threadless, curved stays, ISIS, whatever) will become the norm and it be an "outdated" bike.

I'm gathering your not talking about components.

Hell, *I* might buy the frame off ya in 15 years. I ride a 53. = )

It seems to me that resale value is gotten from, rarity, ethos, quality and beauty, and therefore even though the Atlantis has double the upfront cost you also have the best chance of getting all your money back and then some when considering resale in 15 years. Not to mention the difference in value in the riding over the 15 years.

So what’s your opinion on buying the bike today, and riding it a lot for 15 years; does the Atlantis have better potential for appreciation at resale than the Trek 520 or LHT? Why?

Keep in mind that to broaden the appeal of your bike for resale, you should, when the time for repainting comes around, stick to neutral colors. Beige and taupe are nice, inoffensive, and accessorize well. The new owner can add splashy bar tape, colored cable housing, etc., to punch up its appearance.

I have never used "resale value" as a factor in choosing which bike to buy, but I do tend to choose bikes that will last me 'til I'm 90, and all of these bikes will do that, barring accidents.

Forget about resale values......buy the bike you like and enjoy. Same goes with cameras.....:)
Besides, most people will throw hundreds of dollars onto the bikes for parts replacements, upgrades, and so on, that after several years of ownership they have no idea how much they've invested in their bikes. I don't think most people even keep tabs....
I don't see bicycles as investments, at least from a financial standpoint...:)

It seems to me that resale value is gotten from, rarity, ethos, quality and beauty, and therefore even though the Atlantis has double the upfront cost you also have the best chance of getting all your money back and then some when considering resale in 15 years. Not to mention the difference in value in the riding over the 15 years.

So what’s your opinion on buying the bike today, and riding it a lot for 15 years; does the Atlantis have better potential for appreciation at resale than the Trek 520 or LHT? Why?

In order to get all your money back and then some after 15 years, the Atlantis will have to be mint. In other words, once you get the bike, keep it inside the box and lock it in your basement until 2021! There should be no touring on your bike and don't even think about opening the box.

As for the Trek 520, I've seen some listed on Ebay that dated early 1990's sell for $300.00 - $400.00 dollars tops. The bike had to be in VERY good condition with all the racks and enhancements.

The best to keep its resale value up will be to make sure you don't ride it

I would give the nod to the Atlantis, but only if Rivendell had stopped making them several years ago. Since Rivendell will be selling the Atlantis frame as long as they are in business, it is doubtfull that the Atlantis will ever reach the rare and collectable status as, say a bridgestone XO-1.

If you are going to buy one of the three, go with the Atlantis; the extra money spent will be well worth it. Just make sure you order the correct size.

I don't see bicycles as investments, at least from a financial standpoint.

i like that. very quotable.

http://www.burley.com/products/road-bikes/default7ae9.html?p=Hudson&i=0

Net cost of ownership is the analysis. I have a trek 520 which I know I'll get my investment back in 15 years since I won it last March at a Subaru dealership:D

With that kind of initial investment I've considered upgrading the frame but I read a wise post here by someone awhile back about having a nice touring frame would only cause you grief since if you really wanted to tour you'd have be pascking your bike up to ship as well as dings, chips, or potentially stolen bike worries. I think I was very good advice and I always think about these words when I get the upgrade itch.

Also the Tek 520 rides so sweetly, I can't imagine it getting much better.

I understand the lust factor, I might consider an Atlantis for Brevets etc, but not loaded touring. The LHT at $420 is on par with the Trek, if not better, and may be the best value out there for touring frames.

I have both a 520 and a LHT, and I don't have a lot of money.

Resale value, or what I'm doing with either of the bikes in 15 years didn't even register when I bought them.

They are both very capable bikes.

http://www.burley.com/products/road-bikes/default7ae9.html?p=Hudson&i=0

Wow, looks like the fine folks at Burley hit one out of the park with that bike. Definatlely should be mentioned with the likes of the Atlantis, LHT, and the 520.

An Atlantis is built to last for a century, so why would one want to sell it after only 15 years?

http://www.burley.com/products/road-bikes/default7ae9.html?p=Hudson&i=0

It's nice but at $2199.00 I'd take the Atlantis. But at this price it's not in the same price range of the Trek 520 or LHT. With $2199 I could build a smoking LHT touring bike.

It's nice but at $2199.00 I'd take the Atlantis. But at this price it's not in the same price range of the Trek 520 or LHT. With $2199 I could build a smoking LHT touring bike.

It is overpriced but the Hudson has excellant specs. I've seen one in person and it has quality all over.

>>>>If you are going to buy one of the three, go with the Atlantis; the extra money spent will be well worth it.<<<<<

Hi,

Ummmmm.....to be blunt, why? And why do these three bikes seem to be *the* dominant choice in touring steel?

I like my "stiff" Cannondale, but have been thinking of building a nice lugged steel bike too.

I looked at an Atlantis frame in a local shop and it was very classy. And I like the whole Rivendell attitude and feel certain they won't be making any disasterous ventures into the motorcycle biz, or get bizarre in a desperate, never ending determination to always be "innovative" like you know who.

But the price. Yipes! And then I read this on their site:

"Atlantis tubing is a custom mix from Reynolds of England, True Temper of the U.S., and equally good, but less well-known tube makers from Japan and Taiwan. The seat tubes, down tubes, and chainstays are heat-treated, because they’re the only tubes that ever break on any bikes, and we wanted added toughness. The top tube and seat stays are standard CrMo steel, plenty fine. "

Taiwan?..... Plenty fine?...........hmmmm. Questions arise, like is it seamless or butted tubing? My experience is that is that don't say it is, it ain't. OK, doesn't mean it's not good, but now a $600 price is starting to sound "plenty fine" too.

And then:

"All of our lugs are proprietary, meaning they're ours alone."

That's cool, but what type are they? Cast, or swaged? A big difference.

My last problem was that Atlantis frames are one color, off the rack sizng. As a comparison, both Mercian and Bob Jackson touring frames are made to fit using entirely Reynods tubing throughout and cast lugs. Quite a variety of options and finishes were available as well.

The dig? Both the Mercian and Jackson framesets were listing at less then the Atlantis frameset, last I looked, anyway.

Jackson and Mercian are British firms, and the Rivendell folks are Yanks.....but since the Atlantis is actually made in Japan, it's not like I'm supporting American frame builders in any case.

Of course, I have never heard of anyone unhappy with their Atlantis, quite the contrary. People who get them seem to love them.

For $2,100 you can get a classic lugged Mercian which IMHO is a step above the Atlantes. That being said - there was a guy here on BF that posted a pic of an Atlantes in a custom black and cream livery that was the finest pic of a bike I have ever seen. Still - the Mercian would be my choice compared to a Riv at that pricepoint.

I think resale can be helpful in the short run. Like I want to sell my current touring bike. It would have been an LHT if I could have gotten one last year, it's an Urnanite instead, which is a wonderful frame. But nobody has heard of it. I would be able to blow out a 6 month old LHT with two minor paint chips for something, and really quick, in fact with the paint change it might have been a winner. I'm just selling because I need custom dimentions, nothing wrong with the actual bike.

However 15 years from now it is impossible to know which one will have the greatest appreciation in value. It might be good or bad new, but I don't think one can predict it from today.

Go price some vintage bikes on ebay. :) Masi's regularly fetch North of $1000. Highest resale on the 3 would be the Atlantis. Best bang for the buck right now is the LHT. Not that I built one of the first ones, but yeah, I built one. Now I've discovered recumbents, so both my LHT and Paramount have a bit of dust on them.

Hi,
you can buy the Burley frame, I think it's $700? I forget.
The steel is nicer than what the Surly uses, it's made right here in the States, and it's not that much more expensive. Build it up on the cheap and you still have a great bike.

The one that caught my eye is the Vagabond. Since I discovered
lite touring I have fallen in love with the idea. I keep trying to come up with tricks to cut weight. When I get near the end of a trip we box up dirty laundry, junk we bought, books we've read, and ship them home. Typically we knock 5 pounds off the bike for the last day or two.

"Atlantis tubing is a custom mix from Reynolds of England, True Temper of the U.S., and equally good, but less well-known tube makers from Japan and Taiwan. The seat tubes, down tubes, and chainstays are heat-treated, because they’re the only tubes that ever break on any bikes, and we wanted added toughness. The top tube and seat stays are standard CrMo steel, plenty fine. "

Taiwan?..... Plenty fine?...........hmmmm. Questions arise, like is it seamless or butted tubing? My experience is that is that don't say it is, it ain't. OK, doesn't mean it's not good, but now a $600 price is starting to sound "plenty fine" too.
What in God's name would it matter? Not to put too fine a point on it but True Temper doesn't make seamless tubing that I can recall.

And yet there are very good reasons to use rolled, seamed tubing - for one thing it is a GREAT DEAL easier to control the phyical properties of a tube if it starts out as a piece of flat metal that you can actually inspect on both sides.

And butting and the like is a great deal more accurate and far cheaper when done with a set of flat rollers.



"All of our lugs are proprietary, meaning they're ours alone."

That's cool, but what type are they? Cast, or swaged? A big difference.
The very best lugs were made with flat stock, cut out and hand formed into the most beautiful lugs of all. Suggesting that there's some sort of difference between cast or swaged is like thinking there's a value difference between orange or blue.



My last problem was that Atlantis frames are one color, off the rack sizng. As a comparison, both Mercian and Bob Jackson touring frames are made to fit using entirely Reynods tubing throughout and cast lugs. Quite a variety of options and finishes were available as well.
If you believe that 99% of people won't fit a standard sized frame JUST AS WELL as a custom made frame you must make custom frames for a living. In fact the human body is marvelously accomodating and there is essentially no such thing as a "perfect fit" since your body is always changing and because it can grow accustomed to very great differences in sizing.



The dig? Both the Mercian and Jackson framesets were listing at less then the Atlantis frameset, last I looked, anyway. Jackson and Mercian are British firms, and the Rivendell folks are Yanks.....but since the Atlantis is actually made in Japan, it's not like I'm supporting American frame builders in any case.
Herein we can agree at least to the extent that Mersian and Bob Jackson are absolutely marvelous machines and by far the best value around for high end touring bikes.

There are other American made touring bikes:

Waterford (I'd give their URL but they win the prize for most Geekish website on the planet)
Bruce Gordon (http://www.bgcycles.com/)
Mikkelsen (http://www.mikkelsenframes.com/pages/803200/index.htm)
and many more.



Of course, I have never heard of anyone unhappy with their Atlantis, quite the contrary. People who get them seem to love them.

After the level of a bike's quality gets above mediocre it's pretty difficult to fault any of them.

My one point would be that a Trek 520 is the vanilla touring bike and there's absolutely nothing wrong with a vanilla bike. The Surly has nothing other than being a minimally priced vanilla touring bike to its credit.

Given my choice I would probably ALWAYS go with a Mercian.

>>>>>What in God's name would it matter?<<<<<

At this point, Taiwan (where Atlantis lugs, dropouts and apparently some tubes come from) is not my first choice for high end quality cycle componants. I find the Taiwanese product, while often fine, to be the source for the more economically priced componant. This is not reflected in the price of the Atlantis frameset.

>>>Not to put too fine a point on it but True Temper doesn't make seamless tubing that I can recall.<<<<

TT's high end tubing is seamless. Just as it is with all quality tube makers. I don't recall if Columbus or Reynolds even makes seamed tubing. Probably Reynolds at least. Athough Reynolds states that all high quality tubing is seamless.

>>>>And yet there are very good reasons to use rolled, seamed tubing - for one thing it is a GREAT DEAL easier to control the phyical properties of a tube if it starts out as a piece of flat metal that you can actually inspect on both sides.

And butting and the like is a great deal more accurate and far cheaper when done with a set of flat rollers.<<<<

Seamed tubing is cheaper to make, that's true. As far as inspecting the physical properties of the tube, a welded seam in the tubing becomes the biggest issue requireing careful inspection. Of course, once the weld is made, the inspection of both sides is sort of a moot point. I always thought butting was done to the tubing, not the flat stock. Even in seamed tubing. Seems like trying to match up and weld the varying thickness of flat stock that has had butting rolled into it would make that seam an even bigger issue. But I don't know.

>>>The very best lugs were made with flat stock, cut out and hand formed into the most beautiful lugs of all.<<<

I think if you research this you will find that the best lugs are actually cast. Far more rigid and capable of following the tube more precisely. Lugs stamped or swaged from flat stock were popular on low end to middle range "light weights" that did not weld thick tubes like the American single speed coaster bikes. These lugs allowed the use of tubes too light to successfully weld back then, but they often have significant gaps (particularly right at the joint) and are very flexible. The main advantage was they were cheap to make, allowed easy alignment adjustments, required less technical skill then fillet, and did a good job of hiding poor tube joints. Tig welding has replaced all that, thankfully. As for most beautiful, I suppose the Hetchin's lug work is hard to ignore. The filigree in the Chater Lea lug is actually created during the casting, the hand forming is the filing of the lug to lighten and remove hard edges. Oh well, turns out the Atlantis has cast lugs anyway.


>>>>If you believe that 99% of people won't fit a standard sized frame JUST AS WELL as a custom made frame you must make custom frames for a living. In fact the human body is marvelously accomodating and there is essentially no such thing as a "perfect fit" since your body is always changing and because it can grow accustomed to very great differences in sizing.<<<<

I'm quite happy with my off the rack Cannondale frame. Not a frame builder although I did actually build myself a frame from Reynolds 531 ST and Henry James stainless lugs once. I simply prefer AU when heavily loaded. Others do not. I agree that standard frames can fit fine, especially with all the adjustments that can be made. But the built to fit argument has it's points too.

My real issue wasn't about what process is supposedly better, or not (an argument that probably belongs in the frame builders section). As I said, it didn't mean the bike wasn't good. It was an issue with the price. I feel that Rivendell is looking to cut costs, but is failing to pass that on. With their marketing, and pricing, the bike is getting the status of a high end custom, but I don't see why it's any less "vanilla" then the more honest and fairly priced Surly frame, in my Humble opinion. The older Trek 520 with Reynolds tubes would be a great choice for the money, and probably the best "investment" as it's good reputation turns into myth and legend with the fog of time.

Did Someone say Mercian?
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/craft.asp

Or Bob Jackson?
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm

I don't think you'll go wrong at all with a Rivendell. They are great bikes and good guys. But Mercian and Jakson are custom-made and pick your color. All for the same price as an Atlantis--or less!

>>>>>What in God's name would it matter?<<<<<

At this point, Taiwan (where Atlantis lugs, dropouts and apparently some tubes come from) is not my first choice for high end quality cycle componants. I find the Taiwanese product, while often fine, to be the source for the more economically priced componant. This is not reflected in the price of the Atlantis frameset.

>>>Not to put too fine a point on it but True Temper doesn't make seamless tubing that I can recall.<<<<

TT's high end tubing is seamless. Just as it is with all quality tube makers. I don't recall if Columbus or Reynolds even makes seamed tubing. Probably Reynolds at least. Athough Reynolds states that all high quality tubing is seamless.

>>>>And yet there are very good reasons to use rolled, seamed tubing - for one thing it is a GREAT DEAL easier to control the phyical properties of a tube if it starts out as a piece of flat metal that you can actually inspect on both sides.

And butting and the like is a great deal more accurate and far cheaper when done with a set of flat rollers.<<<<

Seamed tubing is cheaper to make, that's true. As far as inspecting the physical properties of the tube, a welded seam in the tubing becomes the biggest issue requireing careful inspection. Of course, once the weld is made, the inspection of both sides is sort of a moot point. I always thought butting was done to the tubing, not the flat stock. Even in seamed tubing. Seems like trying to match up and weld the varying thickness of flat stock that has had butting rolled into it would make that seam an even bigger issue. But I don't know.

>>>The very best lugs were made with flat stock, cut out and hand formed into the most beautiful lugs of all.<<<

I think if you research this you will find that the best lugs are actually cast. Far more rigid and capable of following the tube more precisely. Lugs stamped or swaged from flat stock were popular on low end to middle range "light weights" that did not weld thick tubes like the American single speed coaster bikes. These lugs allowed the use of tubes too light to successfully weld back then, but they often have significant gaps (particularly right at the joint) and are very flexible. The main advantage was they were cheap to make, allowed easy alignment adjustments, required less technical skill then fillet, and did a good job of hiding poor tube joints. Tig welding has replaced all that, thankfully. As for most beautiful, I suppose the Hetchin's lug work is hard to ignore. The filigree in the Chater Lea lug is actually created during the casting, the hand forming is the filing of the lug to lighten and remove hard edges. Oh well, turns out the Atlantis has cast lugs anyway.


>>>>If you believe that 99% of people won't fit a standard sized frame JUST AS WELL as a custom made frame you must make custom frames for a living. In fact the human body is marvelously accomodating and there is essentially no such thing as a "perfect fit" since your body is always changing and because it can grow accustomed to very great differences in sizing.<<<<

I'm quite happy with my off the rack Cannondale frame. Not a frame builder although I did actually build myself a frame from Reynolds 531 ST and Henry James stainless lugs once. I simply prefer AU when heavily loaded. Others do not. I agree that standard frames can fit fine, especially with all the adjustments that can be made. But the built to fit argument has it's points too.

My real issue wasn't about what process is supposedly better, or not (an argument that probably belongs in the frame builders section). As I said, it didn't mean the bike wasn't good. It was an issue with the price. I feel that Rivendell is looking to cut costs, but is failing to pass that on. With their marketing, and pricing, the bike is getting the status of a high end custom, but I don't see why it's any less "vanilla" then the more honest and fairly priced Surly frame, in my Humble opinion. The older Trek 520 with Reynolds tubes would be a great choice for the money, and probably the best "investment" as it's good reputation turns into myth and legend with the fog of time.

You don't know what you are talking about.

The Atlantis costs what it does because:

it has several different custom tubesets, including chainstays that require bending and heat treating, a butted seat tube with .4mm differential (I've never heard of a seat tube with anything more than .3 mm), a custom lugged fork with curved tapered blades

it has cast lugs, made by Long Shen

It is made by Toyo, a small shop in Osaka that has very consistent quality. They make something like 400 Atlantis frames a year, and it takes them about 20 hours each one. Each worker is paid a good wage (and that's for Japan!).

For such a small production volume, having custom tubing made that is not used on any other bike is expensive, and so are the proprietary cast lugs.

The frames are given very high quality paint work, including the cream paneling in the lug windows. This is obvious when you see it, even if you don't care for the color. People comment on the paint quality all the time (yes, I have one). The mixte model they make, the Glorius, had so many odd details that the painter in Oakland took twice as long doing it as he anticipated. I say that looking at my wife's Glorius.

All the bikes mentioned - Mercian, 520, etc. - are GREAT bikes. But don't suggest that the Atlantis isn't worth the money, particularly by suggesting that Taiwanese cutom made tubing is a *lesser* quality. You just don't know what you are talking about. Anyway, I believe all the tubing is Japanese now, regardless of what their website says. But it wouldn't matter if I was wrong. Taiwanese bikes can be top-notch.

If Mercian used those custom stays, for example (clearing a 52-54 mm width tire), or had those other labor-intensive custom parts, and just all those little details - the headbadge, as one measly example - it would cost the same. But they made a smart business decision, and used standard tubing sets and inexpensive but sharp aesthetic decisions, and offer their frames at a lower price point. That's cool. If you don't care about any of the other doodads, well, it doesn't matter, does it? Pay less, get a great bike.

If Trek's 520 frame took four times as long to make as it does now - say they went with proprietary cast lugs, too - and they gave it the same paint job, custom tubes, etc., it would cost the same as the Atlantis, too, unless they made it in enough volume to discount it.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but making uninformed comments about a frame without knowing any basic details about it is wrong, even on the internet. It would be much fairer to all involved to ask first, and then make a conclusion, no?

[I looked at this a bit later, and I sound harsher in tone than I really mean to be, Spokewrench. I just figure if you built a bike that had all these different and more expensive details, and all people mentioned was the price, it would piss you off, too. I recently asked a framebuilder what it would cost to have custom tubing made for a frame, and the short answer was "more than you will want to pay"]

>>>>>You don't know what you are talking about.<<<<<<

That's always possible.

>>>>>The Atlantis costs what it does because:......<<<<<<

I think the Atlantis is priced based (like most things) on what they believe the market will bear, which in today's business world, has more to do with image and marketing. Keep in mind, Grant Petersen was head of marketing at Bridgestone, not frame design.

>>>>it has several different custom tubesets,<<<<<

Hmmm. Admittedly, all I have for info regarding the specs on the Atlantis is what I have read from Rivendell....But my understanding is that they pick different tubes from different suppliers to create a unique, or "custom" tube set they build the Atlantis from. They all (at least per batch) share the same tube set, and it isn't custom as in designed specifically for you. Jackson, for example, will also mix tubes rather then simply buying a standard set. Only they will do it to fit your specific needs, which is really what custom should mean.

>>>>>including chainstays that require bending and heat treating,<<<<<

I don't believe this is anything particularly unusual. Heat treating (depending on the steel you are using) bending (if it's part of the design) and aligning are all part of the process. You can get S bends in the Jackson chainstays, if you want them.

>>>>a butted seat tube with .4mm differential (I've never heard of a seat tube with anything more than .3 mm),<<<<<

Nor have I. Is this good? Why? How come Colombus, Reynolds, TT and Tange don't get with it?

>>>>a custom lugged fork with curved tapered blades<<<<

What's "custom" about it? You do realize that the bikes I mentioned and most lugged bikes have a lugged fork with curved tapered blades? These blades come straight and are bent by the builder.

>>>>it has cast lugs, made by Long Shen<<<<<

Does that mean cast is good? So maybe there was something about which I knew what I was talking about? LOL. So with lug makers like Henry James and Kirk Pacenti around, (to name a couple right here in the states) why do you think Rivendell goes for the Taiwanese product? Is it for that standout quality like you find in Taiwanese tools, knives and their other steel products? I suppose there could be several reasons. What do you really think the reason is?

>>>>It is made by Toyo, a small shop in Osaka that has very consistent quality.<<<<

How do you know about how consistant their quality is?

>>>>They make something like 400 Atlantis frames a year, and it takes them about 20 hours each one.<<<<

I believe that Rivendell says it take 20 hours each on the Rivendell frame. Totally different frame then the Atlantis.

>>>>Each worker is paid a good wage (and that's for Japan!).<<<<

I'd love to know where you get this information.

>>>For such a small production volume, having custom tubing made that is not used on any other bike is expensive, and so are the proprietary cast lugs.<<<

You imply that the tubes are special made for the Atlantis. But I don't think that's what they mean. I think they just assemble already available tubes to create the unique frame set used on the Atlantis.

>>>>>The frames are given very high quality paint work, including the cream paneling in the lug windows. This is obvious when you see it, even if you don't care for the color. People comment on the paint quality all the time >>>>>

Yes, as I mentioned, the frame looks very classy. But as you say *the* color. The Jackson frame has also a high quality finish with a wide variety of choices including multiple colors. BTW, I do not sell Bob Jackson frames, or own one......yet. It's just one of several frames available useful for comparing.

>>>>>(yes, I have one).<<<<<

I would have never guessed! LOL! Actually.....Congratulations.

>>>>>But don't suggest that the Atlantis isn't worth the money, particularly by suggesting that Taiwanese cutom made tubing is a *lesser* quality.<<<<<

I have yet, in my entire life, to find a Taiwanese product, particularly a steel product that wasn't lesser quality then a US or European or Japanese equivilant. Not one thing. Sometimes the quality gap is larger then others. That doesn't mean it can't be perfectly servicable, or even good. But when a manufacturer is asking you to spend more on something made with Taiwanese parts (usually the economical choice) then others using well known and proven US or European parts, I have to ask.....Why? In the case of the Atlantis frame, it also means standard sizing, one color, and no options.


>>>>>If Mercian used those custom stays, for example (clearing a 52-54 mm width tire), or had those other labor-intensive custom parts,<<<<

You need to look around more at the Mercian website. That's their standard setup, but they will set it up differently if you want larger tires. As well as fit the frame to your dimensions..etc, etc. All the usual things you can expect from this level of frame builder.

>>>>> the headbadge<<<<<<

Would you say that cool retro metal headbadge is an image/marketing thing, or does it have some other function?

>>>>>>But they (Mercian) made a smart business decision, and used standard tubing sets<<<<

You mean Reynolds 631? And to think they use the Reynolds matched set! I wonder if Reynolds knows enough about tubes to be able to assemble a good touring set?

>>>>and inexpensive but sharp aesthetic decisions,<<<<<

Like the custom paint, cut out lugs, and pin striping? Oh yeah, no metal headbadge! Of course those little transfers that say Reynolds 631 help distract from that.

>>>>>>I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but making uninformed comments about a frame without knowing any basic details about it is wrong, even on the internet. It would be much fairer to all involved to ask first, and then make a conclusion, no?<<<<<

I do not feel my conclusion is altogether uninformed. However, having been wrong before part of the reason I posted is because I have wanted to throw my thoughts out there for feed back. I did ask "why" actually, and then voiced the concerns that are the basis for my mixed feeling about Rivendell.

>>>>I recently asked a framebuilder what it would cost to have custom tubing made for a frame, and the short answer was "more than you will want to pay"<<<<<

I really don't know about the economics of frame tube production. I was looking at some of the fancy hydro formed tubing from (as I recall) Colombus. I had to wonder how many of these tube sets do they sell a year to make the price affordable? 500? 1000? 10,000? I have no idea. But I still don't think that Rivendell is having tubes specially made. My reading of it led me to understand they selected a variety of tubes from different makers. That's an altogether different thing.

I really don't know about the economics of frame tube production. I was looking at some of the fancy hydro formed tubing from (as I recall) Colombus. I had to wonder how many of these tube sets do they sell a year to make the price affordable? 500? 1000? 10,000? I have no idea. But I still don't think that Rivendell is having tubes specially made. My reading of it led me to understand they selected a variety of tubes from different makers. That's an altogether different thing.

So the basis of your remarks is that they don't have custom tubes made for just this bike. And it's baesd on a perusal of their website. And you suggest that I and other customers may be totally fooled about the wages or the quality of the Toyo shop.

Peter White decided to stop his own framebuilding and just sell Toyo frames, and concentrate building his wheels. Sheldon Brown rides several Toyo bikes. These are two people who know more about bikes than me. Rivendell has a listserv, a quarterly reader, and an owner who is very clear about where they make their money, how much they pay their employees, etc. Any body can go on one of the internet listservs and confirm these details. In fact, recently the head builder from Toyo was featured in a photo gallery posted to the list showing him riding one the bikes he built around Diablo.

As far as you "LOL" at having your daring opinion confirmed that cast lugs were better than stamped, when your suggestion that the Atlantis lugs are not cast is unfounded, well, OK, laugh out loud. No one gives a crap.

Rivendell makes very little money off their frames. Very little. They make their money from builds, from parts, from clothes and other things they sell. Some frames make no money at all. I know my wife's Glorius didn't show a profit, because it was so labor intensive. How could it be, with the unsymmetrical hearts in the lug windows? She likes them, but I'm sure that painter went insane.

I felt a bit bad last night and added a comment to my post about the tone, but I realize now you simply don't care about facts or information, and that your posts are quite a bit prejudiced.

>>>>>>So the basis of your remarks is that they don't have custom tubes made for just this bike. <<<<<

No, I don't think so. But I am still not sure what you're meaning when you say custom tubes. It's all about features and price of one thing vs another.

>>>>And it's baesd on a perusal of their website.<<<<

The maker's website, (and Rivendell certainly has a web presence) does seem like a resonable place to find out the details of the product.

>>>>And you suggest that I and other customers may be totally fooled about the wages or the quality of the Toyo shop. <<<<<

I'm not disputing the quality of the Toyo shop. I would guess the workers are paid well enough. But I suspect that may be true in the US and England as well. So I doubt that it's all that relevant. When I asked you how you knew about the quality control and the workers wages, I was seriously asking how you came across the information.

>>>>Peter White decided to stop his own framebuilding and just sell Toyo frames, and concentrate building his wheels. Sheldon Brown rides several Toyo bikes. These are two people who know more about bikes than me.<<<<<

Are all Rivendell frames made at the Toyo plant? That is, I know that they produce the full custom, made to fit frames (the 20 hr to make frame)in California, but does everything else come from Toyo? BTW, I think their Rivendell custom is very nice and certainly up to anything Bob Jackson offers. But the frameset is 2500 bucks.

>>>>Rivendell has a listserv, a quarterly reader, and an owner who is very clear about where they make their money, how much they pay their employees, etc. Any body can go on one of the internet listservs and confirm these details.<<<<<

I looked into it at a reasonable level, I feel. I wasn't interested in joining a church (just kidding).
And in all fairness, I did ask "why". Then I started getting these technical reasons that frankly, didn't pan out.

>>>>as far
as you "LOL" at having your daring opinion confirmed that cast lugs were better than stamped, when your suggestion that the Atlantis lugs are not cast is unfounded, well, OK, laugh out loud. No one gives a crap.<<<<<

Sorry. I was trying to lighten up (my attitude anyway) by pointing out maybe the blanket pronouncement that I don't know what I'm talking about might not be 100% true. Anyway, I wondered about the lugs, because they don't really say on their site.

>>>>>Rivendell makes very little money off their frames. <<<<<<

Fine. I'm still wondering why they cost more.


>>>Glorius<<<<<

A pretty frame,no doubt. And even more exspensive then the Atlantis.

>>>>>I felt a bit bad last night and added a comment to my post about the tone,<<<<<

Jeez. I've posted three or so posts here and I'm already making enemies. (maybe I'll try the faces instead of LOL) :( I guess my social skills stink. It's really obvious that criticizing or questioning a bike is going to go over as well as criticizing or questioning a religion. I suppose I got caught up in my own issues on how things are changing. I've been in the motorcycle biz for over thirty years and watched some awesome machines fall by the wayside because of cheaper products with better marketing. And I've seen phonies try to milk things legendary with cheap imitations. You wonder what the hell is up when you get
an H-D made in USA badge that has a made in Taiwan sticker on it. I just feel if the product is going to market and price itself as a top of the line high end product, it should be it not just look it. I always thought Rivendell was, but then they are saying they use the good tubes here and here, but in these other places, this grade is "plenty fine." And that they are using Taiwanese suppliers for some of their materials......I think it's fair to question.

>>>>>but I realize now you simply don't care about facts or information, <<<<

Like which? So far I've been told that seamed tubing is better, lugs from flat stock are better, and Rivendell is having tubing custom made for the Atlantis. All not true.

Well, I'm sorry and I think I'll shut up now. It is not my intention to make any enemies with cyclists least of all fellow tourers. Cars and Winnebagos are enough problems.

"My last problem was that Atlantis frames are one color, off the rack sizng."


Technically not true; the Atlantis has one stock color scheme: stock blue-green and cream, two-tone. Any color is available as an upcharge option.

Points of information:

Atlantis does have custom tubes, for it only, but not all of them. The chainstays, seat tube, and fork blades are Atlantis-only The entire tubeset comes from the Japanese tube manufacturer Tohouku-Miyata. One can argue all you want, that's the facts. It's not a religion, just a matter of clarity and giving credit where it is due.
http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/frames/50062.html

Riv customs are made in Minnesota, not CA, by Curt Goodrich.

The Glorius and the Atlantis are the same price, although that may change. My wife's Glorius was less expensive whe she bought it. Off-topic though.

The OP mentioned three great bikes, that are different and priced differently. I don't understand why people are bothered by the options, nor want to make insinuations about companies with conjectures and ignoring information like the fact that a bike has custom tubes. Adventure Cyclist has a very informative review of the Atlantis in their archives that clarifies this information.

If I was choosing between these three bikes, I would first add the option of a local framebuilder who may be able to make a frame for around $700-$900 (TIG). Support your local framebuilder.

I'll bow out from this thread and stop bugging people.

Once you see an Atlantis, it becomes very clear that the chainstays are made specifically for that bike. The Atlantis is a fantastic bike. At $900, I thought it was priced well.

The bad news is that they've hiked the price by over 50% to $1400 in the last couple of years and, IMO, they are way out of line. If they are running on such slim margins, how is it that British companies can build comparable custom bikes in a choice of colors for around $1000 and stay in business?

Once you see an Atlantis, it becomes very clear that the chainstays are made specifically for that bike. The Atlantis is a fantastic bike. At $900, I thought it was priced well.

The bad news is that they've hiked the price by over 50% to $1400 in the last couple of years and, IMO, they are way out of line. If they are running on such slim margins, how is it that British companies can build comparable custom bikes in a choice of colors for around $1000 and stay in business?

Halfspeed,

I can't help myself, I have to comment on this. :)


Other than Mercian, who in any part of the world makes a lugged bike for $1000 or less? I figure the Taiwan shop that makes Kogswells. And Waterford-made Herons.

I know that most framebuilders charge between $600-$1200 for a TIG frame in the States, depending on the kind of frame, the tubesets, the local economy of the builder. I know that lugged frames made in the U.S. start at maybe $1200 and go up. I know some brands made by Waterford, like Heron owned by Todd Kudzma (co-designed by GP), start at a $1000. A.N.T. frames are around $1400, Gaansari $1500, and of course the real boutique builders are even more expensive. All of these bikes are fantastic bikes, but none of them have custom tubesets. That doesn't mean their ride is of lesser quality. I probably couldn't tell the difference between 4130 and high end steel, my tires will probably make more of a difference. My point is, those design choices result in difference prices. If Mercian can make a business out of selling a standard lugged bike of high quality at $1000, and upcharge for more expensive tubing (which of course they do), that's great. But why bemoan a difference of $400, when the low volume/custom design choices clearly account for that? I'm not going to call ANT and ask him why he can't compete with Mercian. That path leads to a race to the bottom.

People regularly pay far more for boutique brands based on materials alone. I know from your previous posts that you know design has far more to do with riding feel that material, alone. But others will pay $4000 for a frame alone that isn't even aligned properly. I think that's ridiculous. But if a Japanese-made bike is $400 more than a sort-of-equivalent Brit bike, is it really a Big Deal?

My local builder 10 miles from me charges $1200 for a TIG'ed frameset with a top notch paint job and a triple butted 853 tubeset made just for his shop. $500 upcharge for custom. He makes great bikes, and people buy them. I'm not going to be the guy who tells him that he charges too much, because I think he deserves to earn at least that $25,000 he clears a year. He grew up in the town he works in, and the houses went from $150,000 to $400,000 in six years. Should he move to the Midwest so he can charge $1000 instead? Should he stop using his custom tubesets and move over to something else? Look at Waterford's Gunnar line, priced around $850 frame/no fork for a TIG frame. Are they ripping people off?



Do you know what I'm talking about?

You're so all over the place, I hardly know where to start. TIG, lug, custom, production, etc. etc.




Other than Mercian, who in any part of the world makes a lugged bike for $1000 or less? I figure the Taiwan shop that makes Kogswells. And Waterford-made Herons.


Well the aformentioned Bob Jackson and other British builders. Not to mention Rivendell in that same Taiwanese shop.



Look at Waterford's Gunnar line, priced around $850 frame/no fork for a TIG frame. Are they ripping people off?


Gunnars are priced at $725 which is a fair, but by no means cheap, price for a very high quality production steel bike. Just over half the price of a production frameset from Riv.



But if a Japanese-made bike is $400 more than a sort-of-equivalent Brit bike, is it really a Big Deal?


A 50% price premium for a "production" product over a custom geometry one-off product seems excessive to me and I have to ask how he's not able to make a profit doing this when Mercian has been successful for sixty years.

If you don't mind "any color so long as it's green" and are willing to pay extra for "custom" (not chosen by you) tubing, go for it. Every bike Rivendell makes is extremely nice and destined to become a collector's item.

The bottom line is that for my dollar, I'm not buying a production frame when I can get one built to =my= specs in =my= choice of color for a lot less money.

You're so all over the place, I hardly know where to start. TIG, lug, custom, production, etc. etc.



Well the aformentioned Bob Jackson and other British builders. Not to mention Rivendell in that same Taiwanese shop.



Gunnars are priced at $725 which is a fair, but by no means cheap, price for a very high quality production steel bike. Just over half the price of a production frameset from Riv.



A 50% price premium for a "production" product over a custom geometry one-off product seems excessive to me and I have to ask how he's not able to make a profit doing this when Mercian has been successful for sixty years.

If you don't mind "any color so long as it's green" and are willing to pay extra for "custom" (not chosen by you) tubing, go for it. Every bike Rivendell makes is extremely nice and destined to become a collector's item.

The bottom line is that for my dollar, I'm not buying a production frame when I can get one built to =my= specs in =my= choice of color for a lot less money.

You missed my point.

The reason I mention several different kinds of frames, and costs, is simple. There is great variety in prices and options. The Gunnar Rock Tour, which is the closest Waterford offers in that line to an Atlantis (I had a Cross Hairs and have a Rock Hound, and Cross Hairs does not have the clearance or load capacity) is $850 sans fork, and if you get the fork it's $1225. For a custom geometry Gunnar Rock Tour with fork, about $200 more. That's a TIG frame. A lugged Mercian is around $1000. So my point was, do people think they are ripped off by Waterford (Gunnar)?

I'd argue no. And I don't think people should ***** about Waterfords or any other brands because some lower priced competitor is available, especially when it's a few hundred bucks. Maybe YOU choose to buy the cheaper one - it still works great - but why make a big deal if not everyone can compete with an English shop that has been around six decades. Who knows, maybe they have very little debt to deal with. But I don't think we should go around complaining about other dealers.

It wasn't a matter of what any one person would do with their dollar. It's about this presumption that everybody has to match the lowest price. It clearly doesn't matter to most consumers, because they are buying the bikes at the higher price.

OK, I'll leave it alone now.

You missed my point.

The reason I mention several different kinds of frames, and costs, is simple. There is great variety in prices and options. The Gunnar Rock Tour, which is the closest Waterford offers in that line to an Atlantis (I had a Cross Hairs and have a Rock Hound, and Cross Hairs does not have the clearance or load capacity) is $850 sans fork, and if you get the fork it's $1225. For a custom geometry Gunnar Rock Tour with fork, about $200 more. That's a TIG frame. A lugged Mercian is around $1000. So my point was, do people think they are ripped off by Waterford (Gunnar)?


You name a maker and ask if I think the price is right. We can play that game until the end of time and it's pointless. I'm not saying that the Atlantis is the only maker of production lugged steel bikes that is overpriced. In fact, here are a couple from the "holy krap!" file:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&PRODUCT.ID=26
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&PRODUCT.ID=173

Where do you draw the line? Is $3000 too much for a production lugged steel bike? How about $6k? $60k? Or is there no limit to what you would consider a good price?



I'd argue no. And I don't think people should ***** about Waterfords or any other brands because some lower priced competitor is available, especially when it's a few hundred bucks.


It's not just lower priced, it's quite arguably =better= considering it's built to spec.



It wasn't a matter of what any one person would do with their dollar. It's about this presumption that everybody has to match the lowest price.
.

Who made that presumption? In the end, the market will decide and that decision is made by the individual judgements of consumers. Grant Peterson better pay attention because I'm not the only potential customer getting better service for a lower price.



It clearly doesn't matter to most consumers, because they are buying the bikes at the higher price.


Most consumers ride Wal*Mart bikes.

Wow! Here's to you guys! :beer:
Good points, well stated (both).
I'm really glad that we each get to choose (best quality, price, looks......) for ourselves, tho.
And I do like having all those choices! Different strokes for different folks, ay? ;)

So what’s your opinion on buying the bike today, and riding it a lot for 15 years; does the Atlantis have better potential for appreciation at resale than the Trek 520 or LHT? Why?

You know what? My fav LBS loves me... errr I should say, my wallet! :D

I've purchase quite a few bikes over recent years for one reason or another, and by the time I've finished modifying all the parts that came on the original bike, about the only thing left that was original was the frames. So this time, I decided to simply purchase a Surly LHT frame, and build my next bike up from there. I honestly believe that it will cost me less money than buying another pre-built bike, and modifying it to suit my needs. So, to answer your question, I suppose I just did.

You know what? My fav LBS loves me... errr I should say, my wallet! :D

I've purchase quite a few bikes over recent years for one reason or another, and by the time I've finished modifying all the parts that came on the original bike, about the only thing left that was original was the frames. So this time, I decided to simply purchase a Surly LHT frame, and build my next bike up from there. I honestly believe that it will cost me less money than buying another pre-built bike, and modifying it to suit my needs. So, to answer your question, I suppose I just did.

Once you get that website complete - it appears to be under progress? - you should post a thread about it. I went to it to see some cool bikes.

You are doing what many people do with the Cross Check. Good idea.

Look at the Bruce Gordon frames and bikes as well. He makes them all in his shop using everything from tig welding to the finest lug work in the world (1st place in a few shows). Prices are very competitive depending on the level you choose. Just my 2 cents.