Touring - Phil Wood fsa vs fsc

I was thinking about getting some PW hubs. Seems like I have bought thousands of dollars worth of hubs over the years with new bikes and such. I have been toying with trying out the Nexus hub in the rear. But it hit me I could do Phil for the same price, heck I could do the expensive fsc for what I have paid on hubs these last three year including the nexus. So I'm thinking maybe I should stop fooling around and step up to some good stuff.

Unfortunately, the decision doesn't seem obvious as to which rear hub to buy. Leaving aside all the tandem vs single and number of spokes questions here is the part I can't figure:

I get the basic mechanical difference between old and new hubs. I can't tell the difference while riding, but it seems that if I buy the old style I can't get large cog sprokets, but if I buy the new style, it looks heavier, is available only in 9 speed which I think is fragile for touring. What its the hot set-up for a wide gear touring range bike.

Not an expert in Phil's hubs, since I've always kept away from technical understanding of things I can't afford. Still, I know they're valued as highly as they're priced.

I think this is correct, though:
-- FSA ("Field Serviceable Axle") is available in threaded freewheel only (but 5/6/7 or 8 speed). Costs about $140.
-- FSC ("Field Serviceable Cassette"??) is available for 9-spd Shimano cassette only. Costs about $360.


If this is correct -- then for me, it's a no-brainer. I still have a few freewheels, and the extra $200 could probably keep me supplied in freewheels for the life of the hub. You can still get 12-32 freewheels (in 7-speed at least), but it looks like the half-life of availability for these things is about 10 years (i.e., in 1996 it was easy to find freewheels, takes twice the searching now).

I also wouldn't trust 9-speed on tour (I've read too much about weak narrow components). From my experience, 8-speed is the pinnacle of technology for touring, in fact I've been happy with 6 and 7-speed.

Yeah, it would be a tough decision. With these two choices, you're essentially locking yourself into one technology for the next 30 years. Why doesn't Phil make an 8-speed cassette hub?

Keep in mind, this is arm-chair engineering only. No direct experience with PW hubs.

-- Mark

EDIT: OK, so much for arm-chair engineering. 8-9-10 speed hubs are compatible with each other. DUH. I guess I was thinking about the step up from 7-speed (which isn't compatible with 8-9-10). So the FSC hub is fine for 8-speed Shimano cassettes.

Still costs an extra bundle, though.

I should add: with freewheels, you're more likely to have incompatibility issues with shifters/derailleurs/gears. It's not a given, but since freewheels are harder to find (at least in wide ranges), you might have to settle for a brand that doesn't match your derailleur, for instance.

I'm currently riding a bike with Suntour barcons (slick and reliable and smooth, I can't see myself ever using anything else). Other components (front/rear derailleurs) are also Suntour. Last summer I replaced the 6-speed Suntour freewheel with a Shimano 7-speed, 12x32. I expected I might have to switch the shifters to friction mode, because Suntour shift points don't match Shimano's (not to mention an extra gear). In the end, I found the perfect adjustment for the rear derailleur that allowed me to keep indexed shifting; the 7th gear is actually on one of the "clicks". But this adjustment is very fine, and I have to fiddle with it occasionally.

But unless the shifters/derailleur/gears are all made by the same manufacturer (or advertised as matching), expect that you'll have to use friction mode.

Still, as I said above, my choice would be an FSA freewheel hub, with a stock of freewheels in a box.

-- Mark

i went through this debate myself recently, and i've decided to go the freewheel route. there are lots of old suntour freewheels on ebay, and a shimano is making new ones still (sheldon brown loves them).

plus, i'd use friction mode anyway.

the price gap is crazy. maybe phil secretly wants freewheels to live on.

My understanding is that the Phil 9 speed cassette is 7 (with spacer) 8 and 9 speed.
Hope I'm right as I'm having one built soon.

Richard

Thanks guys, I did look over at Sheldons site while I was waiting for the responses to trickle in. I can remember looking at Phils when they were made by "hand". WOuldn't mind owning one some day. Some thoughtful responses. I'm still just thinking about it. I don't remember anyone thinking the old Phil was insuficient when it was all one could get. Maybe Shimano is asking a lot for the license?

More extremely, what about being the first guys with a 160mm hub on a non-tandem? Probably been done.

I was thinking about getting some PW hubs. Seems like I have bought thousands of dollars worth of hubs over the years with new bikes and such. I have been toying with trying out the Nexus hub in the rear. But it hit me I could do Phil for the same price, heck I could do the expensive fsc for what I have paid on hubs these last three year including the nexus. So I'm thinking maybe I should stop fooling around and step up to some good stuff.

Unfortunately, the decision doesn't seem obvious as to which rear hub to buy. Leaving aside all the tandem vs single and number of spokes questions here is the part I can't figure:

I get the basic mechanical difference between old and new hubs. I can't tell the difference while riding, but it seems that if I buy the old style I can't get large cog sprokets, but if I buy the new style, it looks heavier, is available only in 9 speed which I think is fragile for touring. What its the hot set-up for a wide gear touring range bike.
Phil Wood hubs have a Shimano spline on them. You can put on a 8,9 or 10 speed cassette and they all work. Good luck.

Tim

I was thinking about getting some PW hubs. Seems like I have bought thousands of dollars worth of hubs over the years with new bikes and such. I have been toying with trying out the Nexus hub in the rear. But it hit me I could do Phil for the same price, heck I could do the expensive fsc for what I have paid on hubs these last three year including the nexus. So I'm thinking maybe I should stop fooling around and step up to some good stuff.

Unfortunately, the decision doesn't seem obvious as to which rear hub to buy. Leaving aside all the tandem vs single and number of spokes questions here is the part I can't figure:

I get the basic mechanical difference between old and new hubs. I can't tell the difference while riding, but it seems that if I buy the old style I can't get large cog sprokets, but if I buy the new style, it looks heavier, is available only in 9 speed which I think is fragile for touring. What its the hot set-up for a wide gear touring range bike.

In my opinion, the Phil Wood cassette hub is the very best hub made for derailer gearing. It is the only non-Shimano hub that I would consider. Shimano hubs, even the cheaper models are better than anything else. They're also best for touring because replacement parts are available anywhere, and there's a much better range of cluster size options available for them.

I also strongly believe that it is foolish to buy a new thread-on freehweel hub. The cassette system is superior in every respect to the obsolete thread on freewheel system.

By the way, you're mistaken about the "only in 9 speed." These hubs work with any normal Shimano cassette: 7-, 8-, 9-, or 10-speed.

Sheldon "K7" Brown


+--------------------------------------------------+
| Take sides! Always take sides! |
| You will sometimes be wrong--but the man who |
| refuses to take sides must _always_ be wrong. |
| Heaven save us from poltroons who fear |
| to make a choice. --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------+

[...] I also strongly believe that it is foolish to buy a new thread-on freehweel hub. The cassette system is superior in every respect to the obsolete thread on freewheel system.

'Nough said. We're honored :)

Of course these points about cassette vs. freewheel -- design and availability -- are indisputable (including the "only 9-speed" error, which I realized and corrected above). But two things sometimes make us choose a non-optimal solution: vanity and cost. Vanity makes some people choose purple-anodized laser-etched boutique hubs, which offer a solution in search of a problem.

But cost is a valid decision factor, especially when $200 represents 1/4 the cost of the rest of the bike. It certainly would give me pause if I were to decide between FSA or FSC hubs.

Perhaps Phil Wood is only taking advantage of this, since his freewheel hub is significantly cheaper than the cassette hub. Still, from what I know about PW hubs, I'd expect a PW freewheel hub to be strong enough not to worry about bearing placement and strength. True?

It goes without saying -- but I'll say it anyway. Your knowledge, and your willingness to share it, is our ultimate resource. I go to other people for stories, but go to your website for knowledge. Thanks...

-- Mark

... But two things sometimes make us choose a non-optimal solution: vanity and cost. Vanity makes some people choose purple-anodized laser-etched boutique hubs, which offer a solution in search of a problem.

In my experience these boutique parts tend to provide their own "problems"...sometime I'll tell you my sad Ringlé tale...



But cost is a valid decision factor, especially when $200 represents 1/4 the cost of the rest of the bike. It certainly would give me pause if I were to decide between FSA or FSC hubs.

Well, if cost is a factor, why would you spend $140 plus the cost of a skewer for a hub that is inferior to a Shimano LX for $35 including the world's best skewer?



Perhaps Phil Wood is only taking advantage of this, since his freewheel hub is significantly cheaper than the cassette hub. Still, from what I know about PW hubs, I'd expect a PW freewheel hub to be strong enough not to worry about bearing placement and strength. True?

True, but you don't have to worry about those with a Shimano LX either. Phil isn't 'taking advantage' here, I believe their prices are right in line with their costs. The cassette hub is way more complicated than the freewheel hub.

Back in the day it was the norm, but now that alternatives exist, it seems foolish to me to buy parts where the force of pedaling tightens up screw threads. This is especially an issue in touring bikes and tandems, because these bikes tend to have low gearing that puts a great deal of torque on the interface, and it can sometimes require extreme measures to get the freewheel off after it has been in use for a while.

I reiterate that the cassette Freehub system is superior in ALL respects to ALL thread-on freewheel setups.

If there's a lot of money buring a hole in your pocket, I recommend you spend it on something fun, like an iPod, or, my latest toy, a Kodak V570 camera...

Sheldon "Priorities" Brown

+--------------------------------------------------------+
| Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have |
| legislated out of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most |
| amazing--with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" |
| fighting it out for second place. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

Well, if cost is a factor, why would you spend $140 plus the cost of a skewer for a hub that is inferior to a Shimano LX for $35 including the world's best skewer?


Can you explain why the Shimano LX hub and skewer are better?

Thank you.

Well, if cost is a factor, why would you spend $140 plus the cost of a skewer for a hub that is inferior to a Shimano LX for $35 including the world's best skewer?
Points well taken. I think the OP has gotten a lot more than he paid for in advice here.

As I said at the top of this thread, I've never bought a Phil Wood hub -- all this was arm-chair engineering for me. So I'm living proof that you can be happy not spending money you don't have, and still use high-quality components. I have probably 10 rear hubs on bikes and as spares: 6 are Shimano LX's, two are XT's -- all freehubs. The other two are freewheel hubs: Suzue(?) on my tandem, Suntour on my touring bike (both bought around 1989). Fortunately (unfortunately??), the Suntour is probably as bullet-proof as a Phil Wood, and I don't expect it to die before I do. I don't have the heart to swap it out. Kinda like giving a tail transplant to your loyal family dog.

But if I ever step up to a Phil Wood, my thinking will be revised. Along with my budget.



Can you explain why the Shimano LX hub and skewer are better?.
I take it Sheldon is saying that an LX freehub is superior to a Phil Wood freewheel hub, because of the inherent design differences between the two technologies. From what I know about the skewer, it's a metal cam design instead of the all-too-often cheap plastic eccentric -- but there may be more to it than that.

-- Mark

I take it Sheldon is saying that an LX freehub is superior to a Phil Wood freewheel hub, because of the inherent design differences between the two technologies. From what I know about the skewer, it's a metal cam design instead of the all-too-often cheap plastic eccentric -- but there may be more to it than that.

Right. Phil Wood doesn't make skewers. If they did, I'm sure they would be wonderful, but they don't and Shimano is the best.

See my article on this at: http://sheldonbrown.com/qr

A lot of the "boutique" hubs come without skewers, and this fools a lot of people.

When they go to look up the weight, the boutique hubs seem a lot lighter, but that's because there is no skewer to weigh! Shimano hub weights in catalogues include the skewers.

Also the lack of the skewer makes the boutique hubs seem less overpriced than they are, because, again you're comparing a hub with a skewer with another hub that you need to buy a skewer for. Good skewers ain't cheap.

Sheldon "Enclosed Cam" Brown

+--------------------------------------------------------+
| You can fool some of the people all of the time, |
| …and those are the ones we're after! --Anon. |
+--------------------------------------------------------+