Classic & Vintage - S*itmano 8-speed Ultegra barcons - compatibility with older S*itmano derailers

Well, as if there weren't enough problems with the PSV-10, I hooked up the brand-new Ultegra (not Dura-Ace) 8-speed bar-cons to the older Shimano 600 rear derailer presently on this machine, and sure enough, it appears as if the pull-distance of the Ultegra barcons are not compatible with the old 600 derailer.

The instructions state that I must use the latest Shimano 600 Ultegra rear derailer with these barcons, P/N: RD-6401. As I've learned with these Shimano manuals, nothing is written in stone - another model Shimano derailer in many cases will be compatible, they simply want you to buy more of the latest to pocket some extra change.

Now, since I don't care to buy brand-new derailers at brand-new prices, and as you fellows have a pretty good knowledge about derailer compatibilty of vintage with modern, I thought I'd ask you folks if anyone can give me any insight into Shimano derailer X-axis pull-distances.

Take care,

-Kurt

The derailleur should be compatible with the shifter, except that it may not have the necessary throw, should you decide on 8 speed. You did not say if the the bicycle has the old 6 speed cassette/freewheel or a 7 speed or an 8 speed? If it has a 6 speed or 7 speed then the problem is likely the spacing between the cogs. The 6 speed uses 3.65mm spacers, the 7 speed uses 3.1mm and the 8 speed uses 3.0mm. The shifters you have are designed to provide the smaller, correct cable movement for 8 speed spacing. The difference between 7 and 8 speed spacing is small, so you can usually get it to work for 3 or 4 consecutive gears, until the Centeron pulley has used up all the available play. The small cog may still cause a problem as the spacer is integral with the cog, but often there is enough play in the Centeron pulley to handle the difference. And on some 6 speed cassettes there is a thin spacer that you can remove to reduce the spacing.

If you don't like Shimano, don't buy it.

Dura ace excepted, any other 8 speed shimano derailleur will be compatible with their 8 speed cluster, although used on ebay the difference between ultegra and 105 is not much (Dura ace in that gear range is still quite expensive...)

I have the dura-ace shifters on my bike with a 105 derailleur and they work fine, in friction mode, even though they state that they only work with dura-ace.

You did not say if the the bicycle has the old 6 speed cassette/freewheel or a 7 speed or an 8 speed? If it has a 6 speed or 7 speed then the problem is likely the spacing between the cogs. The 6 speed uses 3.65mm spacers, the 7 speed uses 3.1mm and the 8 speed uses 3.0mm. The shifters you have are designed to provide the smaller, correct cable movement for 8 speed spacing.

Whoops. Forgot to mention, I'm running an 8-speed HG cassette on it.

No amount of adjustment helps. The derailer pulls about 3.4mm for every click in the shifter - by the 4th cluster or so, it's skipping right to the 6th cog.

I should note that the 600 derailer I am running was originally made for friction use, if I'm not mistaken, for it does not have a barrel adjuster. I'm using the adjuster on the downtube for the fine-tuning.


If you don't like Shimano, don't buy it.

And if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it.

I'd buy Campy, but I don't have a S*itmano-load of money.

Mind you, the "S*itmano" joke is a constant gag at one of the LBS I visit.


I have the dura-ace shifters on my bike with a 105 derailleur and they work fine, in friction mode, even though they state that they only work with dura-ace.

Expected as such. Anything in friction mode is compatible.

Thing is, a corncob 8-speed Hyperglide cassete doesn't lend itself very well to friction shifting.

Take care,

-Kurt

This doesn't really apply to what you're trying to do, but just to give an illustration of how inaccurate the instructions are that come with Shimano barcons: On my old Schwinn, I'm running nine speed Dura-Ace barcons, with a modern 105 front der., Nashbar triple touring cranks, SRAM nine speed 11 x 32 cassette, and a Shimano XT mtb rear der. The barcons are indexed for the nine speeds in the rear, friction only in front. Couldn't shift better if it were on a brand new bike, rear indexing and all. And to top it off, the bike has an adapter claw derailleur hanger, which was actually my biggest concern going into the project. The instructions with the Dura-Ace shifters say "use only with Dura-Ace drive system." Hah!

No amount of adjustment helps. The derailer pulls about 3.4mm for every click in the shifter - by the 4th cluster or so, it's skipping right to the 6th cog.

Expected as such. Anything in friction mode is compatible.

Thing is, a corncob 8-speed Hyperglide cassete doesn't lend itself very well to friction shifting.

I'm running my 9-speed HG in friction mode and it works great. I was having the same issue trying to use the indexing. I would recommend putting it in friction mode and seeing if you can't get used to it.

Like I said, if you don't like shimano, don't buy it. If you're tight for cash, save it up till you have enough for the right thing. Seems to me you're trying to make bike parts conform to human standards. Can't force something to work through sheer will-power, only yourself.
I mention to people sometimes that staying with a brand and a group of a brand gives a bike the best chance of smoothest workability. Trying to blend a hodge podge of bits and pieces usually designs, or engineers, into a bicycle problems--bugs that you'll be chasing forever more.

Corncob freewheels were always a bit finicky with friction shifters, always needed alot of sensitivity and practice in your fingers to get it down just right. In the days of friction shifting, the rider whole was most adept at shifting techniques had one of the greatest advantages. STI was invented and essentially eliminated this advantage.

Getting back to the point: don't try to force it; it'll just piss you off.

I didn't realize that the rear derailleur was not index compatible. It looks like the 1st SIS generation 600 derailleur. Any SIS compatible derailleur should work, except pre-1997 Dura-Ace, though some of the early ones may not have enough throw for all 8 cogs.

I mention to people sometimes that staying with a brand and a group of a brand gives a bike the best chance of smoothest workability.

That's what I intended: Shimano cassete with Shimano derailer with Shimano barcons. Not a hint of anything else. (Although I'm stuck using a Simplex FD, which should work fine, for the FD is friction. Hah!)

Unfortunately, not all the Shimano-to-Shimano compatibility problems are known, and I seem to have caught myself into one of these pitfalls.


Corncob freewheels were always a bit finicky with friction shifters, always needed alot of sensitivity and practice in your fingers to get it down just right.

Depends. I find that my 13-24 Suntour 7 with a Suntour Cyclone derailer and levers are a royal PITA, yet, I have an unknown-brand (EDIT: It's a Regina Oro. That's it, I'm hooked) 13-18(?) freewheel on my Basso with a stock Campy Trumphe derailer/friction lever set, and it's a dream to shift. I'd say it has a lot more to do with the componentry then with corncobs.

I still maintain the belief that the existing, older Shimano 600 derailer has a different pull-travel distance then the modern 8-speed 600s. We'll soon see, for I found a 600 derailer on eBay (7224239278) pretty cheap, and I'll hopefully win it.

Mind you, Shimano HG was designed for indexing, and is somewhat unsafe to run in friction mode. No reason why it shouldn't.

-Kurt

I didn't realize that the rear derailleur was not index compatible. It looks like the 1st SIS generation 600 derailleur. Any SIS compatible derailleur should work, except pre-1997 Dura-Ace, though some of the early ones may not have enough throw for all 8 cogs.

The existing 600 RD is the same as the one in this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SHIMANO-600-REAR-MECH-RD6207_W0QQitemZ7224746244QQcategoryZ42329QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Didn't realize that Shimano changed the sideways pull of the parallelogram for the SIS shifting setup.

Well, it looks like I'll at least get a spare non-index 600 RD out of this...

-Kurt

Thinking about it, you caught me on that one. My sweetest (smooth, soundless) set up was an Atom freewheel, Regina Extra chain, and ST Superbe remainder. Mid-late 70's era. Until AMTRAK crushed it on my way home from MN a few years ago.

Thinking about it, you caught me on that one. My sweetest (smooth, soundless) set up was an Atom freewheel, Regina Extra chain, and ST Superbe remainder. Mid-late 70's era. Until AMTRAK crushed it on my way home from MN a few years ago.

Interesting setup. I think I'll build something up with those components to try it out. What levers did you use?

It isn't "Amtrak"...it's "Amcrap." Don't get me started on them - I'm also a railfan.

-Kurt

First kid on the block to use Barcons. Got snickered at alot. In '75 I found some brandless cable housing--just a simple wire coil--which is quite limp. I "lubed" it by soaking it along with the cables in liquid hot parafin. After it was dry, I cored it out by pulling the cable back and forth a zillion times through the housing. Seems to me, at least as good as the modern shimano housing. I also used a toothless pulley on the lower of the two RD pulleys. That seemed to cut down on sound and feel alot too. If you'd like, I could pull it out of the shed, clean it up, and show you a couple of pics. After AMCRAP did their thing, its pretty loosey-goosey in the frnot end, so I sort of ingnore it.

This may be considered not relavent....

I put a Shimano 105 ten speed cassette on my old '84 bike and continued to use the old Suntour friction shifters for a while, it all worked fine and I didn't have a problem with my 12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,24,27 cluster (the first six gears you could call corncob).

Yesterday I fitted the ten speed Dura-Ace down tube shifters and the indexing is perfect.

I am using a Deore rear derailleur, it works fine with ten speed indexing too and it was only a few dollars from my LBS. With this RD I can go up to 34t on the cluster (but of course ten speeds stop at 27, no reason not to use a 9 speed but in friction mode), and this RD supports my 52-24 spread on the chainrings too.

First kid on the block to use Barcons. Got snickered at alot. In '75 I found some brandless cable housing--just a simple wire coil--which is quite limp. I "lubed" it by soaking it along with the cables in liquid hot parafin. After it was dry, I cored it out by pulling the cable back and forth a zillion times through the housing. Seems to me, at least as good as the modern shimano housing. I also used a toothless pulley on the lower of the two RD pulleys. That seemed to cut down on sound and feel alot too. If you'd like, I could pull it out of the shed, clean it up, and show you a couple of pics. After AMCRAP did their thing, its pretty loosey-goosey in the frnot end, so I sort of ingnore it.

Interesting. One of the LBS has an NOS Suntour barcon set for sale, might pick it up for this application. I also have a spare Huret Allvit that I'll harvest that smooth pulley from.

Now if I could just find a 23" frame with a decent wheelset to try this setup out on. This Peugeot was the last of my spare 23" framesets.

Loosy-goosey in the front end? In the headset?

Take care,

-Kurt

Old barcons can usually be found in the used parts bins at shops that have them. $5 normally. As for the pulley, I made my own using wire cutters and a file.
Not headset loosey-goosey; just crown squish, fork bow. Just not safe, and I've put too much sentimental value on the bike to want to break it up. Anyway, it was plenty wore out before AMTRAK got to it. I had it packed right, with the plastic spacers between the stays, but they still were able to get to it. Pretzeled the front wheel! How'd they do that? My track bike in the other box next to it was perfect.
My vacation is over, the house is painted, a new floor in the kit and din rm, and I've discovered internet forums. Time to earn some cash, hire a few people and get back to my own little form of reality. Sorry if I offended anybody, and thanks for letting me join you for the last few days. Cheers!

I have to agree with Kurt on the Shimano stuff. I've had much better success with ancient Suntours from the 70s than with even new Shimano parts. Had a Specialized Hardrock I used for just getting around town. There was no way in hell to ever adjust the shift right. It never seemed to sit properly and always wanted to jump off the inner chainring. Even my 30 year old Suntour Friction Shifters ran smoother and had fewer problems. My brother had a mountain bike with Shimano index shifters as well and had the same problems. I think maybe the Huret or Suntour options are sounder, but that's just been my experience.

I have to agree with Kurt on the Shimano stuff. I've had much better success with ancient Suntours from the 70s than with even new Shimano parts. Had a Specialized Hardrock I used for just getting around town. There was no way in hell to ever adjust the shift right. It never seemed to sit properly and always wanted to jump off the inner chainring. Even my 30 year old Suntour Friction Shifters ran smoother and had fewer problems. My brother had a mountain bike with Shimano index shifters as well and had the same problems. I think maybe the Huret or Suntour options are sounder, but that's just been my experience.

The only indexed shifters I've ever ridden on that were an unquestionable dream to operate were a set of Suntour Express thumb-levers on a pair of Univega hybrids I sold.

The levers on the Suntour Express setup operate similar to Shimano XT, but the gem of the system is the absense of Shimano Uni, Independent or Hyperglide sprockets. The thick Suntour cogs indexed beautifully on my two examples, and the shifters required hardly any effort to manipulate.

It's a rotten shame that Suntour didn't make it. If their indexed line had been developed a bit more, the Suntour index systems could have very well been THE cost-effective choice for indexed conversions on VLWs.

A side note on Shimano Hyperglide: Thinner cogs mean faster wear, and the screwy angles of the cog's teeth don't help. I'd put a gamble that the Hyperglide system was given the go-ahead not just for the shifting advantages, but because of the increased chain and sprocket wear incurred with these systems. After all, the more they wear out, the more you sell replacement parts, eh?

Take care,

-Kurt

haha a conspiracy theory huh?

I'll second the displeasure with the very slim cogs. My older Suntour ones seemed so much better. The old Suntour products I've had experience with were good quality and low in cost. It is a shame they haven't hung around.

I'll second the displeasure with the very slim cogs. My older Suntour ones seemed so much better. The old Suntour products I've had experience with were good quality and low in cost. It is a shame they haven't hung around.

Very true, especially the low-cost factor - take, for instance, a Suntour Cyclone front derailer. One of the LBS has tons of them, NOS in baggie, marked $8.00 from way-back-when. Get that - $8 for one of the best front derailers ever made during the '80s...and you can still buy them today at that price.

Funny thing, during the same era, Campy was still churning out their crappy FDs - the ones that do a good job of grinding the hell out of your chain, but rarely shift.

One little quibble I have with Suntour derailers though: Just like cheap department-store Shimano derailers, they don't like to shift from the second smallest cog into the small cog without some shuffling and effort - one of my biggest pet peeves of cycle repair.

Take care,

-Kurt

I'm not sure, but maybe the shifting problem with the ST (2nd smallest to the smallest) might have been a cable issue. I tend to think I get better shifting when I have shorter lengths of housing.
I can't name names, but there's a LBS in the "U" district of Seattle that sells used parts in bins, including RDs, FDs, brakes, levers, bars, stems, posts, etc. Generally $5, as is. Usually just need some cleaning, service, elbow grease and they're fine. ST cyclone, VG-T, VG-T 7, shimano, campy, SR Huret, that kind of stuff. Cinelli Criterium bars for $5!

Update:

Came back from the LBS with a current Shimano RX-100.

It works better then the old 600, but that's a relative term - for NO amount of adjustment will get the RX-100 to properly hit all gears up or down - it usually refuses to shift down on the third smallest cog.

After pouring all this money into the project (and on a side note, exploded at the owner of the LBS today), all I can say at the present time is: S*ITMANO!

My only guess is that the Dura-Ace 8 speed chain I'm using is not compatible with the standard HG system. Sounds ludicrous, but it's the only answer I can think of.

-Kurt

Kurt, on my Dura-Ace 9-speed barcons, I once had to take the shifter apart and move a little washer around so that it jives with the lobe-like thing that serves as a stop on the shifter. Kind of hard to describe, but it you take it apart (the little washer will come out, might have to gently pry it with a knife blade or something), you might be able to see that the washer is in the wrong position. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, I'm currently getting flawless rear index shifting with these shifters, but with the washer out of position it acted crazy, shifting to maybe three or four cogs fine, then skipping two or three cogs. One way you can tell is, with the shifter disconnected from the RD, run the shifter through its motions, and you should hear the correct number of clicks. If the washer is screwed up, you'll probably hear only three or four clicks, or less. Hope this helps-

I can't name names, but there's a LBS in the "U" district of Seattle that sells used parts in bins, including RDs, FDs, brakes, levers, bars, stems, posts, etc.

Recycled Cycles (http://www.recycledcycles.com/)

Some crazy combos can and do work. I just got back on a ride with my lightly-upgraded late-80's Davidson. 7-speed Shimano "brifters", Superbe-Pro indexed rear der, Superbe-Pro non-indexed front der, 5 speed freewheel. After a moderate amount of fiddling, shifts perfectly. Sorta fun compared to friction.... .

Kurt, on my Dura-Ace 9-speed barcons, I once had to take the shifter apart and move a little washer around so that it jives with the lobe-like thing that serves as a stop on the shifter.

No concerns about that washer (A.K.A. "Lever boss cover") - it's in the correct position.

I'm still holding out to my guess that it's the Dura-Ace VS HG-stnd. chain...but you can't be sure with Shimano.

-Kurt

No concerns about that washer (A.K.A. "Lever boss cover") - it's in the correct position.

I'm still holding out to my guess that it's the Dura-Ace VS HG-stnd. chain...but you can't be sure with Shimano.

-Kurt

If you're getting the correct number of clicks with the shifters, then yeah, it wouldn't be that. But actually, I probably didn't make it terribly clear what I was talking about. It's not the black, plastic round cover that I think you're referring to, but beneath that there's a notched "washer," actually it's more like an ultrathin metal ring, where the notch needs to be oriented just right in relation to the stop, or all hell breaks loose. But again, if you're getting seven clicks, that's not it. Good luck with it- :)

It's not the black, plastic round cover that I think you're referring to, but beneath that there's a notched "washer," actually it's more like an ultrathin metal ring, where the notch needs to be oriented just right in relation to the stop, or all hell breaks loose. But again, if you're getting seven clicks, that's not it. Good luck with it- :)

No, no, we're thinking of the same part: The thin chromed washer with the little blip on it. Shimano calls it the "lever boss cover" in their manuals. A misleading name, but that's the official description!

-Kurt

No, no, we're thinking of the same part: The thin chromed washer with the little blip on it. Shimano calls it the "lever boss cover" in their manuals. A misleading name, but that's the official description!

-Kurt

Hmm, that is an interesting name for that, but just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, let me describe a little more. Not trying to be a pain, but I was nearly ready to give up on these shifters, too, when I couldn't get them to index, and the only way I figured it out was by talking to a friend at a bike shop who sets up a lot of time trial bikes with aero bars, and therefore works on these barcons quite a bit. The part I'm talking about is not chrome, but the part I'm referring to that has the "stop" on it is chrome. This "stop" is probably the "blip" you're talking about. But seated down in the round channel of that chrome piece with the "blip" on it, is a very thin little ring (black or brown in color, I believe) with a notch ("notch"-opposite of "blip") in it. This little, thin, notched ring is apparently a KEY thing in getting these shifters to work right. Without taking my shifters apart (not gonna do that, sorry!), I can't tell you in great detail how that little notched ring is supposed to be oriented, but I remember after studying it with it apart, I figured out how it should be oriented, and once I did and everything was back together, it indexed fine. But if you can run the shift lever through its motion and get seven distinct clicks, this is not the problem...........Sorry to be so long winded, but maybe this will help-

But seated down in the round channel of that chrome piece with the "blip" on it, is a very thin little ring (black or brown in color, I believe) with a notch ("notch"-opposite of "blip") in it.

Ok - that part I had not seen!



But if you can run the shift lever through its motion and get seven distinct clicks, this is not the problem...........Sorry to be so long winded, but maybe this will help-

I can run the lever through and get the proper seven clicks though, and I can run the shifter through all 8 cogs with haphazard accuracy, but not the perfection that one would expect from a HG system.

On a slightly different subject: My all-time favorite friction setup is a Campy derailer with Sedis chain and a Regina Oro 6-speed corncob freewheel. There's nothing quite like this setup!

Take care,

-Kurt