OK, I have a Dumb Cager story followed by a question about bike safety. The annoying thing is, the cager was trying to be nice. And I was a Dumb Biker to boot. And that often results in tragedy.
I was turning left from a retail driveway onto a street with 2 lanes each way. I waited a bit for traffic to pass and find a hole to turn into and zip over to the right lane. When a hole appeared (totally clear on left, pretty clear on right), I started pedaling. Driver who is approaching from right slows down, then comes to a stop just a few feet short of my turning path (but there really was plenty of time for me to get over to the right lane in front of him -- I'm super cautious). He/she must have stopped to "let me go in front of him." In the middle of the road. For no reason.
I was already in motion because I'd had to cross two lanes of traffic coming from the left before I even get to the other side. I swerved to avoid going in front of him, because who knows if he/she was stopping for me, stopping to apply lipstick and doesn't see me at all, stopping because he/she's trying to turn into the retail parking lot and doesn't see me, whatever. I didn't want to go in front of them.
I should note this is an area with lots of lumber yards and light industrial, so there's usually sand in the road. Can you guess what happens? I wipe out as I'm swerving. A perfect side-slide that gracefully descended until my knee met the road. I should have been more careful in such a sandy area, but I wanted to get behind them quick so I could still make my traffic hole. Wiped out directly behind the car.
The worst thing: one of the approaching cars was a Hummer who saw everything and was probably thinking "Ha ha, stupid bicyclist and your stupid griping about fossil fuels. Take THAT!"
I scuttled me and my bike off the road to the right, got back on, and rode the rest of the way to work on girl-testosterone and swearing oaths and dripping a bit of blood.
So my question is: when someone stops in a situation like this and it seems like they're "letting you go by" (but you can't see their eyes so you don't know), do you go in front, go in back, or do something else?
spinbackle
03-15-06, 10:45 AM
I'll usually go in front of them (to let them think they've done a good thing) but not without looking carefully behind them for more traffic (you obviously had a hole to negotiate). I'll also make eye contact and shake my head side to side in disbelief at their stupidity.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a cager and love to drive and have to for my job but there are a lot of idiotic drivers out there. And going down in the street in front of traffic SUCKS!
Helmet Head
03-15-06, 11:58 AM
So my question is: when someone stops in a situation like this and it seems like they're "letting you go by" (but you can't see their eyes so you don't know), do you go in front, go in back, or do something else?
Usually, yes, but only if I know the reason they stopped or slowed is to yield to me, which I usually determine much more from their behavior in the context in which it is made rather than from what their eyes are "telling" me (if I can see them at all). In other words, if there is no other reason to explain their behavior except that they are yielding to me, then I assume they are yielding to me, and proceed accordingly.
If I'm not sure, I slow and unclip one foot (a surprisingly effective method to indicate I am yielding to them)... that usually prompts them to move, or to wave to me eliminating whatever doubt may remain as to whether they are yielding to me.
caloso
03-15-06, 12:03 PM
I guess I'm confused. If there was enough time for you to turn left in front of the SUV at speed, then why would you swing behind it if it stopped?
To answer your question though, when a driver stops to be nice--to let the poor cyclist go(probably got a DUI, doncha know)--I put my foot down and wave them along. Once I was stopped at a stop sign. The crossing street did not have a stop sign but a driver was trying to be nice to me and another cyclist so she stopped in the middle of the street and waved at us to go. A car following her was not so patient and tried to pass her on the right, just missing our front wheels. The impatient driver would have very likely killed or gravely injured us had we taken the nice driver's invitation to go in front of her.
Helmet Head
03-15-06, 12:19 PM
If there was enough time for you to turn left in front of the SUV at speed, then why would you swing behind it if it stopped?
I think the presence of that driver is why it was "pretty clear on right" rather than "totally clear on the right", and that when bbonnn started to cross, she was assuming that that driver across the road coming from the right would have gone by already by the time she crossed over to that side. Instead, when that driver saw her starting to cross, he slowed and stopped, apparently pretty much right in front of her. She was not expecting that, wasn't sure what it meant, and chose to swerve to go around behind, just in case.
Helmet Head
03-15-06, 12:25 PM
To answer your question though, when a driver stops to be nice--to let the poor cyclist go(probably got a DUI, doncha know)--I put my foot down and wave them along. Once I was stopped at a stop sign. The crossing street did not have a stop sign but a driver was trying to be nice to me and another cyclist so she stopped in the middle of the street and waved at us to go. A car following her was not so patient and tried to pass her on the right, just missing our front wheels. The impatient driver would have very likely killed or gravely injured us had we taken the nice driver's invitation to go in front of her.
This is a very good point. Just because one driver is yielding the right of way to you doesn't mean all drivers are doing so. I don't go so far as to refuse all yields because of this, but I am careful to make sure that all relevant drivers are yielding to me before I proceed.
bbonnn
03-15-06, 12:28 PM
It just seemed so weird to have the car yield to me so far in advance, and from the other side of the road. I was a little unnerved. When drivers do "courteous" (but stupid) things like that, my first instinct is to return the courtesy by getting out of their way as quickly as possible. Gotta stop doing that. Calm down, breathe, be safe instead of polite.
The Power of the Foot On the Ground is a good idea to keep in mind, I'll try it. In this case, I honestly wasn't sure if they saw me or not. There was a glare on the windows, so I figured the safer thing was to go behind.
Do you more-seasoned commuters wipe out often? I felt like a COMPLETE idiot -- been riding this bike 3 years and should know it well enough to not fall down on the dang thing. (I'm sorry, darling, you are not a dang thing, I love you ...)
bbonnn
03-15-06, 12:30 PM
I think the presence of that driver is why it was "pretty clear on right" rather than "totally clear on the right", and that when bbonnn started to cross, she was assuming that that driver across the road coming from the right would have gone by already by the time she crossed over to that side. Instead, when that driver saw her starting to cross, he slowed and stopped, apparently pretty much right in front of her. She was not expecting that, wasn't sure what it meant, and chose to swerve to go around behind, just in case.
Yep, exactly.
bbonnn
03-15-06, 12:43 PM
Once I was stopped at a stop sign. The crossing street did not have a stop sign but a driver was trying to be nice to me and another cyclist so she stopped in the middle of the street and waved at us to go. A car following her was not so patient and tried to pass her on the right, just missing our front wheels. The impatient driver would have very likely killed or gravely injured us had we taken the nice driver's invitation to go in front of her.
I "heard somewhere" (source unknown, possibly urban legend) that if this situation happens with automobiles, the person who WAVES can be found at fault for any accident that happens because of their gesticulations. I'd like to find out if that's actually true.
Helmet Head
03-15-06, 12:56 PM
I "heard somewhere" (source unknown, possibly urban legend) that if this situation happens with automobiles, the person who WAVES can be found at fault for any accident that happens because of their gesticulations. I'd like to find out if that's actually true.
Sounds like an urban legend to me. Even if there was such a whacky law, I, for one, would not find anyone guilty of it if I was on the jury...
twahl
03-15-06, 01:06 PM
I'd go ahead and go in front, as HH said, assuming I couldn't see any other reason for their behavior. Also as pointed out, you can't count on the next person seeing you. They are likely to see the car stopped, brake lights and the fact that they are used to looking for cars. I don't want the be the guy on the bike in between a non moving and a moving vehicle.
I'm sorry you wrecked in this situation. It's sometimes hard to make the instant decision what to do in a situation like that, but now that it's happened you'll be bettery prepared next time something similar happens.
Brian Ratliff
03-15-06, 01:13 PM
It just seemed so weird to have the car yield to me so far in advance, and from the other side of the road. I was a little unnerved. When drivers do "courteous" (but stupid) things like that, my first instinct is to return the courtesy by getting out of their way as quickly as possible. Gotta stop doing that. Calm down, breathe, be safe instead of polite.
The Power of the Foot On the Ground is a good idea to keep in mind, I'll try it. In this case, I honestly wasn't sure if they saw me or not. There was a glare on the windows, so I figured the safer thing was to go behind.
Do you more-seasoned commuters wipe out often? I felt like a COMPLETE idiot -- been riding this bike 3 years and should know it well enough to not fall down on the dang thing. (I'm sorry, darling, you are not a dang thing, I love you ...)
Not often, but enough. I wiped out in the middle of my destination parking lot just last Tuesday. No cars, no rush, no speed... nothing. Just turning slowly around the corner of the building I work in and BAM! Perfect slide, wheels out from under me. I went back later and found that the corner was a bit off camber and the surface a bit slick; that, combined with the ground being wet, was the cause. I didn't even see it coming though.
Roody
03-15-06, 01:46 PM
It's situations like this that make me say that there's no place for "niceness" on the road. "Nice" drivers probably contribute to many accidents and are not even aware of it, as in this case. Everybody should drive in a legal and predictable manner, and allow others to do the same. It's a concept similar to "enlightened self-interest."
Roody
03-15-06, 01:51 PM
Not often, but enough. I wiped out in the middle of my destination parking lot just last Tuesday. No cars, no rush, no speed... nothing. Just turning slowly around the corner of the building I work in and BAM! Perfect slide, wheels out from under me. I went back later and found that the corner was a bit off camber and the surface a bit slick; that, combined with the ground being wet, was the cause. I didn't even see it coming though.
Nearly the same thing happened to me in the parking lot where I work. I made to to work slow but safe on an icy day. The pavement in the parking lot was clean, so I sped up to to make a swooping turn in front of the cigarette smokers. I wiped out in a grand fashion on some rock salt strewn on the pavement. The smokers no doubt patted each other on the back for staying safe in their little butt hut. And of course the salt was there to keep them from slipping when they walked out to smoke!
edzo
03-15-06, 01:57 PM
I time my own cutovers and never get in front of
a car that changes it's speed for me. I go behind.
reacting to drivers....
it is the best way to get killed
it is safer to scan traffic, mentally track everyone,
and find your path. when THEY change-up, then back off
and wait for them to go.
i've seen 2 people crushed by other cars that were dodging the
nice-lady-car-who-stopped-for-the-bike.
drivers are stupid when they yield when they shouldn't.
it is the other drivers behind all the action who will come
around and slam you.
Helmet Head
03-15-06, 02:08 PM
Do you more-seasoned commuters wipe out often?
No.
Knock on wood, the only crashes I've had since I was about 12 years old (I'm 45 now) were all related to getting accustomed to new pedal/clip systems, unless you count the time a cyclist bumped me from behind (after I slowed because cyclists in front of me slowed), and he went down as a result.
It pays to be very careful.
Helmet Head
03-15-06, 02:15 PM
I time my own cutovers and never get in front of
a car that changes it's speed for me. I go behind.
reacting to drivers....
it is the best way to get killed
I couldn't disagree more.
This advice is contrary to everything I have ever experienced or learned.
I have never experienced or heard about an incident where a cyclist and motorist were communicating proactively that resulted in a crash between that cyclist and that motorist (we've already talked about being careful to not fall vicim to a 3rd party).
I find that communicating with and reacting to drivers is key to successful and effective cycling in traffic.
Dchiefransom
03-15-06, 08:06 PM
If you're starting across a street, and timing it so that a car coming along the road will go ahead of you, the driver might see that the cyclist has plenty of time to cut right in front of them, getting run over. This could be why the driver in this situation stopped. Drivers can't read minds, and will react to what they see.
sbhikes
03-15-06, 08:34 PM
No wiping out here. I've got three wheels. :D
cerewa
03-15-06, 11:23 PM
If you're starting across a street, and timing it so that a car coming along the road will go ahead of you, the driver might see that the cyclist has plenty of time to cut right in front of them, getting run over. This could be why the driver in this situation stopped. Drivers can't read minds, and will react to what they see.
Yep. Some do stupid things to make room for cyclists, while some do intelligent things to make room for stupid cyclists. :)
When you wish to cross several lanes of roadway and there's someone whom you could potentially cut in front of (but plan to allow to pass instead) it helps to stay far away from them and to cross the roadway gradually, without making any sudden unpredictable moves even far away from traffic.
Helmet Head
03-16-06, 12:02 AM
There are no stupid motorists.
Only motorists whose behavior you predict well, and motorists whose behavior you predict poorly.
Motorist behavior is a given. It's not good nor bad. Like gravity, it just is. The only variables you have to work is how you predict and react to motorist behavior.
huhenio
03-16-06, 12:09 AM
I slow down and unclip one foot (a surprisingly effective method to indicate I am yielding to them)... that usually prompts them to move, or to wave to me eliminating whatever doubt may remain as to whether they are yielding to me.
x2 ... get the foot down is a good visual cue for drivers.
rode the rest of the way to work on girl-testosterone
I hear that's even more deadly than the male version...
TireLever-07
03-16-06, 08:23 AM
I'd 3rd the one foot down.I sometimes turn the wheel 90Deg.to get the car moving.
The"Plywood Jetta" is an internet classic.The rear shocks went thru the wheelwells,Home Depot made them sign a release before they overloaded the VW.Chris
scarry
03-16-06, 09:29 AM
I'd go behind the nice but clueless driver.
For example, at a 4-way stop. Driver on my right has right of way, having arrived first at stop sign. I'm coasting to the stop slowly, so after the driver proceeds, I can then smothly go behind. Driver waves me through. I will just ride around behind him.
baiskeli
03-16-06, 12:28 PM
So my question is: when someone stops in a situation like this and it seems like they're "letting you go by" (but you can't see their eyes so you don't know), do you go in front, go in back, or do something else?
Unless it is obviously clear that they are stopping for me (I make eye contact, nod and make sure they nod back or give some sort of acknowledgement) I either don't go or go behind them.
I once had someone stop in the opposite lane when I had my hand out for a left turn, when I was already turning she gunned the engine and then slammed on her brakes inches from me. It seems that she had stopped because she saw someone she knew and then decided NOT to stop. Her exact words to me "Oh my God! I didn't see you".
oilfreeandhappy
03-16-06, 12:58 PM
No, there are no stupid motorists.
flipped4bikes
03-16-06, 01:10 PM
I "heard somewhere" (source unknown, possibly urban legend) that if this situation happens with automobiles, the person who WAVES can be found at fault for any accident that happens because of their gesticulations. I'd like to find out if that's actually true.
I was taught that in Drivers Ed. To minimize "at fault", wave as an acknowledgement only, but DO NOT make indications that it is safe to cross.
bbonnn
03-16-06, 04:11 PM
I once had someone stop in the opposite lane when I had my hand out for a left turn, when I was already turning she gunned the engine and then slammed on her brakes inches from me. It seems that she had stopped because she saw someone she knew and then decided NOT to stop. Her exact words to me "Oh my God! I didn't see you".
You just described my greatest fear. Yow.
baiskeli
03-17-06, 11:11 AM
You just described my greatest fear. Yow.
I was totally freaked out. Just because she was very apologetic doesn't mean that she wouldn't have run me over because of her not paying attention.
crazybikerchick
03-24-06, 04:57 PM
I guess I'm confused. If there was enough time for you to turn left in front of the SUV at speed, then why would you swing behind it if it stopped?
To answer your question though, when a driver stops to be nice--to let the poor cyclist go(probably got a DUI, doncha know)--I put my foot down and wave them along. Once I was stopped at a stop sign. The crossing street did not have a stop sign but a driver was trying to be nice to me and another cyclist so she stopped in the middle of the street and waved at us to go. A car following her was not so patient and tried to pass her on the right, just missing our front wheels. The impatient driver would have very likely killed or gravely injured us had we taken the nice driver's invitation to go in front of her.
I witnessed an accident like this. MUP (through a ravine) crosses the roadway midblock. Sign on MUP says "wait for gap" and there's a concrete median area to wait in in the middle of the road. Driver stops for cyclist. Cyclist proceeds to cross the road. Driver behind nice driver is not anticipating this to happen.. and rearends nice driver pushing nice driver into cyclist. Cyclist was only bruised fortunately. But the rearending driver was not been impatient even, just was adjusting his radio and didn't expect to see a stopped car there.
cruentus
03-25-06, 06:55 AM
I witnessed an accident like this. MUP (through a ravine) crosses the roadway midblock. Sign on MUP says "wait for gap" and there's a concrete median area to wait in in the middle of the road. Driver stops for cyclist. Cyclist proceeds to cross the road. Driver behind nice driver is not anticipating this to happen.. and rearends nice driver pushing nice driver into cyclist. Cyclist was only bruised fortunately. But the rearending driver was not been impatient even, just was adjusting his radio and didn't expect to see a stopped car there.
I've had experience with similar situations. The occasional nice driver stopped to let me go, even though the driver had the right of way, other cagers behind the nice driver became enraged and turned their homicidal fury against me for making them wait.
If everyone obeyed the traffic rules, cagers and bike riders alike, most of the problems would be avoided -- ain't gonna happen.
BikingCT
03-25-06, 04:31 PM
I've had similar to some others, but it was the nice guy in the car who got whacked. I was riding on a busy 2-lane road, where cars travel about 45-50 m.p.h. I needed to make a left across traffic onto a side street. As I approached the side street, I had space behind, so I moved out into the left center of my lane and signalled my intentions. There was an oncoming car who saw me and STOPPED in the middle of the road and waved me across. I waved him on (as others suggest) and he refused to budge. Before either of us could take action, around the bend behind him comes another car--the kid behind the wheel not paying attention--and it slams into nice guy at about 30 m.p.h. (after locking the brakes).
I took the opportunity to cross (no, seriously, I did).
I hopped off the bike, and both drivers were out of their cars, apparently O.K. No other cars stopped. We pushed the rear car off the road, as his engine wasn't turning over, and the guys exchanged insurance info. (it turns out they new each other). I provided my contact details if either needed a witness fo insurance purposes.
After they were wrapped up, a tow truck on the way, and happy neither was hurt, I asked the nice guy why he stopped. His answer: "I bike too and know how difficult it can be to get across roads like this." Oh my!