Classic & Vintage - Sorry.... another what frame is this?

I bought it on ebay, as you do. :)

It has been repainted, possibly more than once.

The only sticker on it is a bike shop, now out of business.

The lugs all have their angles stamped on their underside, except the BB.

The previous owner said the threads are JIS, I have asked him for more info, still waiting.

It weighs 2.4 kg (could be about 5-1/4 lb., but I don't remember pounds so I can't say if that sounds right).

The details on the rear brake bracket and the bottle braze-ons are interesting I thought.

Thanks for putting up with yet another what is this frame thread.

Phil

I forgot to mention... no serial number anywhere.

edit. yes there is! see below

The details on the rear brake bracket and the bottle braze-ons are interesting I thought.

Phil

This caught my eye. My Mondia Super has the EXACT same detailing.

Here's a pic of the bottle cage lugs (sort of):
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9692/mondia46kc.jpg

Yep, that's interesting, does the Mondia have similar rear brake bracket treatment?

UPDATE!!!

I found the serial number, it was well hidden under the paint...

It's along the underside of the down tube...

GB 900686

Does that help?

more info....

The previous owner bought it to strip the Shimano 600 components off it for another project. He thought the components dated from 1984.

i,m guessing myata !

i,m guessing myata !

Bzzzzzzzzzzz. Wrong!

Well I think it isn't a Miyata, cos it aint anything like my other bike :)

The serial number is all wrong and in the wrong place too.

def. not a miyata, i saw a frame like this the other day with similar detailing on the rear brake bridge, now if I could only remember where and what kind of bike.......

Not a bad looking frame, whatever it is.
How is the BB threaded? You say the threads are JIS.
Top

Not a bad looking frame, whatever it is.
How is the BB threaded? You say the threads are JIS.
Top


Actually, only the headset is JIS (well the forks then). I'm now told the BB is English thread.

I am now thinking that this may be a custom made frame.

The seat-tube c-c is 50cm and the top-tube c-c is 55cm. I think that means the top-tube is unusually long for the seat-tube, so was it specially made for someone with short legs and a long torso?

The relatively short serial number would also suggest this. So did the frame builder have the initials GB? Was it made in June '86?

Hmmmmmm.

Sorry...I can't shed much light on this, but I CAN throw some cold water on it. The details of the brake bridge, bottle boss braze-ons, stay caps, etc. are off-the shelf items, not "custom". They ARE high-quality and Italian-made, most likely, and possibly from the Cinelli parts bin (which is to say: made by a multitude of sub-contractors and marketed by Cinelli), but stuff that was used by hundreds of builders. I have a Bertoni with those exact stay caps, but I guarantee you that this frame is no Bertoni and safe bet not Italian. The thing I notice is that the head-lugs are not massaged in any way, they look to be taken straight out of the parts bin and brazed up, the fact that they still have the angles stamped in them reinforces this. And the treatment of the chainstays at the dropouts is another place where a custom builder would show his stuff and make a statement...this bike says: mass-produced, or at least made with quality parts but with no art. The dropout eyelets also say that it's either a touring or "sport-touring" frame, or they didn't take the time to shave off the eyelets. BTW, if the droupouts have any stamping, that would help ID this frame, too...looks to me they could be Gipiemme or ??? Peek into the steering column and that could tell you if it's (probably not) Columbus tubing. But my off-the-cuff flyer of a guess is: it's Japanese built for an Italian brand...so, Asian-Bianchi?

unworthy1,

Good info thanks.

I would have thought there would be ordinary custom bikes too, without all the fancy lug work, for people who just want a bike to fit. That's what I was thinking.

Wouldn't those numbers on the lugs be exposed when the original paint finish was removed? Numbers that are punched in could only ever be filled to get rid of them. I haven't seen factory made frames with those numbers, but I guess I've never bothered looking either :)

I'm thinking 73.5 degree seat-tube and relatively short wheel stays might rule out touring, also it only has room for 25mm tires on 700c wheels and it doesn't have room for 27x1-1/4 wheels/tires.

How can I identify Columbus tubing,? I had a look in the head-tube, but it doesn't tell me anything more.

Thanks,

Phil

Yep, that's interesting, does the Mondia have similar rear brake bracket treatment?


Yes - exactly so, near as I can tell. But my BB is not English threaded - Swiiss, I believe, but definitely not English.

just guessingt but how about a mercian? the seat stays and rear brake bridge could be mercian. check out classic rendezvous for mercian website.

unworthy1,

Good info thanks.

I would have thought there would be ordinary custom bikes too, without all the fancy lug work, for people who just want a bike to fit. That's what I was thinking.

Wouldn't those numbers on the lugs be exposed when the original paint finish was removed? Numbers that are punched in could only ever be filled to get rid of them. I haven't seen factory made frames with those numbers, but I guess I've never bothered looking either :)

I'm thinking 73.5 degree seat-tube and relatively short wheel stays might rule out touring, also it only has room for 25mm tires on 700c wheels and it doesn't have room for 27x1-1/4 wheels/tires.

How can I identify Columbus tubing,? I had a look in the head-tube, but it doesn't tell me anything more.

Thanks,

Phil
Well, It's definitely an unusual geometry, somebody can use that info to ID it, I'm sure.
The only make I'm sure of that spec'ed everything with long toptubes was Austro-Diamler(AKA Puch) and that it is NOT. Typically the stampings on parts were filed off, not filled in, cause the practice is to thin the lugs while shaping the contours into something "artistic".
Columbus steel steering columns (at least from the time of "SL" onward)will have 5 or so little spiral ridges visible if you take off the front wheel, up-end the bike and shine a flashlight up the bottom of the fork crown into the steerer...if it's a smooth tube down there at the base then it ain't Columbus.

There are no such ridges in my forks, so I guess it's not Columbus (at least the forks aren't).

I am learning more each day :)

Mercian? I'll go looking for more info, thanks.

not mercian. im guessing Mondia as well. i second the vote.

Two votes for Mondia.... Hmmmmmm....

The serial number starting GB on the bottom of the downtube would rule out Mondia wouldn't it?

Two votes for Mondia.... Hmmmmmm....

The serial number starting GB on the bottom of the downtube would rule out Mondia wouldn't it?

That doesn't ring true for Mondia. Mine has the serial number on the top of the seat tube on the left side, and it is all numbers - no alpha characters.

Mondia serial number chart (http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Switzerland/mondia/Mondia_serial_numbers.htm)

Also, on second look my rear brake bridge is not an exact match - same detailing but no flat spot on the top of the brake mounting boss/ball. My dropouts appear as yours, except mine are clearly marked Campagnolo and are chromed. In addition, the little "bridge" just behind the chainstays on my Mondia is the same diameter all the way across - no scalloping in the middle as yours appears to have. Top of the seat stays appears the same, though. Oh - and my BB is not plain like yours, the lugs are scalloped just like therst of the lugs are.

You might want to browse here (http://www.classicrendezvous.com/) to take a look at a gallery of various bikes, categorized by country. Maybe something will match.....

Any chance it's a Raleigh? Not a US built one obviously as the SN doesn't match.

If you bought it locally, I'm guessing its not a Mercian or Mondia. They have never been sold here.

GB = Geoffrey Butler???????

GB = Geoffrey Butler???????

Who is Geoffrey Butler?

British bicycle manufacturer.

That frame looks almost identical to my Torpado Beta. The only differences that I can tell are the eyelets on the dropouts and the lack of a pantograph on the seat stay.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/polara426sh/P8070018.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/polara426sh/P8070017.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/polara426sh/P8070016.jpg

Geoffrey Butler is a big shop in the UK - they sell their own brand frames.

BTW, good mailorder shop, fairly good prices and great range