Mountain Biking - Helicopter Mountain Biking

I am currently in the process of getting permission for helicopter flights and landings in the Kananaskis region of Alberta Canada. I'm looking for input from the mountain bike community on how helicopters and mountain bike trips might be best used. I already have some trails and landing sites in mind, focussing more on DH riding in the area. If you have any suggestions, or would like more info on what I have planned, drop me a line. You can of course reply here or you can email me at:
rmxadventures@hotmail.com

thanks in advance for any input!

-Aaron

www.whistler-blackcomb.com

Try emailing these guys. I 'THINK' we had a helicopter service with one of the groups this year. At the very least it is in the works.

I personally don't know how well it would work unless you had some fairly clean runs alrready etched out. I know that if you go off the trails in whistler you can't ride. The brush it impossible to ride through 90% of the time. So being dropped on top of a mountain and hike and biking down wouldn't be too much fun ;)

If you have trails in mind it would be fun...especially if there are multiple lines of varrying toughness...could definately make some money if you could attract the right crowd ($$$)

Thanks for the input. I have 9 established trails already in mind, and they are some of the best trails in the area. They are all trails that are widely popular as cross-country type routes.

What I hope that the heli-biking offers is the ability to do multiple downhill runs in day. And of course, relieve the drudgery of pushing your bike up these mountains (they are probably better described as foothills). I know elite riders will say that the climbs are part of the fun. But on most of these routes, I am yet to see anyone ride them bottom to top. They switchback quite a bit and some of them are so steep that traction is nearly impossible.

Anyways, the routes start at about 6600 feet and most of them drop around 4500 feet giving them about 2000 feet of verticle drop. Some runs in as little as 4 km.

This is all still in the planning phase of course, and basiclly I am looking to see if there is a market for it. The pricing would be around $100 US or $160 CAN for 2 runs, guide, meal, and probably transport to and from Calgary or Banff area.

Thanks again for your feedback!

Thats a good deal. There are similar ideas further north which take you to an area, drop you with a guide and ride you around. There is also someone doing something similar in BC. Very specialized groups of riders. Usually true freeriders looking for untouched terrain. When I become a better rider it would definately interest me...so I would say it is worth it.

But again for a very specialized group...maybe even throw in training of some kind. 3 levels of riding from beginner to advanced. Advanced is more of a tour while beginner is a slightly easier trail with tips and tricks to not dying ;)...I think then you could get more variety of riders paying more...

Definitly a great idea. I have a few friends that have done that and they had a blast( I could not get off work to go).
You get to ride fresh new trails, don't have to worry about other trail users and the ride up can be amazing also.

Slainte :beer:

I think your idea sucks the big one. I ride these so-called "unrideable" trails that your talking about in the Kananaskis to get away from people like you and the weenies you want to cater to. I don't want my ride ruined by the sound of helicopters overhead or bozos with their full face helmets and padded armour running me off the trail on my way up!

Another reason you should not be there is trail damage. I'm sure you've seen what has become of Moose Packers since the DH group has taken it over. Or Jewel Pass. What used to be a nice ride has been wrecked by weekend warriors. These people not only damage the trails, they are inconsiderate to all other users out there - mountain bikers and hikers. I know 'cause I've seen it. I don't want to encounter these people on trails like Cox Hill and Jumpingpound, to name only two. If they can't ride up them, then stick to C.O.P.

Another thing, how do you propose to monitor trail damage? How do you propose to monitor the actions of your clientele? Are you suggesting you can just take over 9 trails in the Kananaskis for your personal use? What about consulting ALL users of the AREA? How do you propose to do that? Do you have a web site to let people from Alberta know what you're proposing here?

:irritated

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Usually true freeriders looking for untouched terrain. When I become a better rider it would definately interest me...so I would say it is worth it.

I'm sorry, but I just can't let this go. First of all, did you not read in his post:


I have 9 established trails already in mind, and they are some of the best trails in the area. They are all trails that are widely popular as cross-country type routes.

HELLO!!! Please re-read that quote if you didn't understand it the first time. 9 ESTABLISHED trails.....that are WIDELY POPULAR AS CROSS-COUNTRY TYPE ROUTES.

That this a'hole would even have the nerve to suggest this type of activity in an area that is obviously enjoyed by multi-users is just the type of crap that other groups use as ammunition to get mountain bikes banned out of an area!!!

This activity is NOT appropriate for the area this guy is talking about.

a) I don't know the area, I was just refering to something that is being looked at for possibilities here. The idea itself is intriguing but BC and the gov't here have a very good relationship about trails. I never endorse the building or riding of trails that are not purposed for dhing.

b) He is refering to a dh set of courses. I realize he mentioned 9 current xc runs but I assumed those would be used as escape routes not the actual tracks themselves. It is almost impossible to have a dh course on a xc track. It would be either too steep and technical for xc guys (at least from what I have seen and ridden in dh) or it would be too damn dull for the dh guys.

c) Again, I don't know the area. I know this type of terrain jumping works in other areas. I did not realize it was a xc area. I thought from the first post that this was a largely unridden area.

Btw I do take offence to being called a weenie. I still think his idea is good but the area he has chosen may suck. And I am just about the polar opposite to a weenie. I may be an ******* but definately no weenie. I enjoy technical terrain that is physically exhuasting or fast and flowing. And hey I even enjoy the climb ;)

Sorry for the generalization, i.e. the weenie comment. But I have encountered a few of them out here and I was being nice when I said that. I have no respect for the riders I have personally encountered out here that couldn't ride up a hill to save their own a$$, but they have no qualms about pi$$ing everyone else off that they encounter by demanding we all give way to them.

I do know this area that rmx is referring to very well. I've been riding the Kananaskis and area since 1989 so I'm pretty confident when I say this guy is full of sh*t if he thinks he's going to blow in there with a bunch of DH guys and not encounter a lot of angry opposition.

This isn't an isolated area he's targeting for this activity and there are no DH 'courses' out there. There are however, a lot of different groups that use this area - mountain bikers, hikers and equestrians. So far, we all seem to be able to get along and share the area without too much conflict. This guy's heli-scheme is a sure recipe for disaster in the area he is targeting. He would be better off approaching one of the ski hill operators and working something out with them for summer use.

Well, another great way to ruin nature;helicopter biking :rolleyes:

First you had skiers, then snowboarders and even some lazy alpinists who didn`t want to spent their whole day walking.

I think its the most inappropriate way to promote your sport, if you can`t find the effort to take your bike with you, then don`t!

Don`t get me wrong, Helicopters are a great thing; for search and rescue!
They safe thousands of life's a year, but its a waste of fuel to use these machines for fun


Cheers :beer:

If I can't ride, push or carry my bike to the top.... Then burry me I must be dead.

the weenie comment. But I have encountered a few of them out here

So, do ride in an area with a lot of naked riders?:p

Just too tempting.

Slainte:beer:

Originally posted by dirtbikedude
So, do ride in an area with a lot of naked riders?:p

Just too tempting.

Slainte:beer:

Yeah, I guess I walked into that one didn't I? :p

Thanks for the input everyone. I think that the opinion from rocky-mountain girl was a little uninformed and harsh but she has some points. What I think she has to understand is that there are many users out there that aren't overly aerobiclly inclined. Just because they don't climb the hills doesn't mean that they are any less hard-core than anyone else. I think that that statement is pretty ingnorant. I have riden all of the trails myself bottom to top many times. I'm willing to bet that she has used the chairlifts at COP, Wintergreen, or Fernie ski resorts to do the same thing that I want to do with my helicopter. And if not is her opinion the same?

As for the enviromental concerns, I am taking every step of this with the help of Fish and Wildlife, Parks and Protected Areas Kananaskis, and Forest and Land Managment. I have worked on trails before (World Police Fire Games 1997) and as part as my guides employment they will have to work once a month on trail maintence with CMBA (Calgary Mountain Bike Alliance). The guides will insure proper trail etiquete and ride in a enviromentally friendly manner.

I understand her not wanting these areas to sound like a military zone with helicopters flying over-head while she gets away from it all. But two of the areas in mind already are helicopter landing sites used regularily, one of them a heli-hiking spot. In no way will we be taking over any trail, or ruining anyones outdoor adventure. I am trying to promote it and show it to others that reqularily wouldn't have the chance.

Thanks again for the input, negative and positive and I hope I have put some people's concerns to rest!

Originally posted by RMX
What I think she has to understand is that there are many users out there that aren't overly aerobiclly inclined. Just because they don't climb the hills doesn't mean that they are any less hard-core than anyone else. I think that that statement is pretty ingnorant.

So, what you're saying is you're basically catering to rich tourists who like to race downhill but are too lazy to get up the hill under their own steam? What was it exactly in my 'statement' that is 'pretty ignorant'? Just because some guy has a DH bike and can actually ride the thing DOWN a hill, that makes him hardcore? Please, give me a break. If they're not "aerobically inclined", then can one assume they do not get a lot of exercise?


I'm willing to bet that she has used the chairlifts at COP, Wintergreen, or Fernie ski resorts to do the same thing that I want to do with my helicopter. And if not is her opinion the same?

Well you bet wrong. I've never used a chair lift for biking EVER. The last time I checked they haven't installed them on Jumpingpound, Moose Mountain, Junction Mountain, Cox Hill or Powderface.

And since you've brought it up, I don't have a problem with people who need a lift to the top as long as it's in an area that is APPROPRIATE for the activity. I would think a ski hill is the perfect place for this type of biking.


But two of the areas in mind already are helicopter landing sites used regularily, one of them a heli-hiking spot. In no way will we be taking over any trail, or ruining anyones outdoor adventure. I am trying to promote it and show it to others that reqularily wouldn't have the chance.

Well, I have a bit of a problem with this as earlier you say:


I have 9 established trails already in mind, and they are some of the best trails in the area. They are all trails that are widely popular as cross-country type routes.

You say these are widely popular cross-country type routes and established trails, yet you will "in no way be taking over any trail". Please tell me how you plan to avoid user conflict? How will you deal with user conflict?

As of yet you have failed to mention exactly which trails you have in mind for this venture. As a user of this area too, I have a right to know which trails you have in mind and would appreciate an honest response.


as part as my guides employment they will have to work once a month on trail maintence with CMBA (Calgary Mountain Bike Alliance)

Yes, which begs the question, does CMBA know about what you're planning and do they endorse this?


We are presently creating a sub-committee to develop criteria for freeriding. The City has asked us to provide them with the criteria that an area must have to be attractive to freeriders. CMBA's (and the City's) goal is to be proactive in identifying logical and acceptable places for freeriding. We want to prevent negative impacts on the reputation of cyclists that would occur if controversy broke out over improper use of natural areas by freeriders.

This comes right from the CMBA website and I would surmise this belief applies to other areas besides Calgary. If this is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I would think they would have some concerns here. Please pay close attention to the last line of that quote and tell me again, in more detail please, about the EXACT area you have in mind for this venture.

Thanks for the input. I still think that you are miss-guided in your opinions but I'm thankful for them none the less. It sounds to me like you are the one trying to take over the trails. By saying that one type of user group is more important than the other or that they shouldn't be allowed on the trail because it is to full is hiker mentality bullsh*t. I was not trying to offer any kind of riding that is not already done. You have to ride down those trails just the same as someone that takes a helicopter up. You don't think that cross-country riders scare the sh*t out hikers and equestrians going down those hills. Give me a break. Just because you ride up them doesn't slow you going down them!
If I offer this trip as a guided trip with no helicopter does that make it ok? Because the rich clients push their bikes up the hills besides you and your friends does that make it more or less taking over the trail?

I think the quote about CMBA had no real bearing on what I am doing. They are talking about inner trails that meant as FREERIDE trails. That's the north-shore type trails that use log bridges, teeter-tooters, etc. They are trying to create areas that these riders can use other than popular places like shannon terrace and bebo grove in fish creek where many riders currently ride and have conflict with hikers and other users. I plan on using the trails AS IS. Not for making freeride trails out of them.

If it helps, when I go helibiking, I don't want no frickin' hikers or horses suprising me at 60+km/h. If I was gonna go it would have to be downhill-only trails. I have no patience for morons, especially when I'm riding.

This quote is taken from someone posting on PinkBike. This pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say. And speaking of bullsh*t, please don't try to tell us that this person is not the norm when it comes to this style of riding.

Also, nice dodge on the CMBA question. Your response leads me to believe that they, in fact, do not know of your proposal.

I get the sense that you're so busy trying to sell this idea that you've lost sight of what your target clientelle really wants.

Originally posted by rockymtn_girl


This quote is taken from someone posting on PinkBike. This pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say. And speaking of bullsh*t, please don't try to tell us that this person is not the norm when it comes to this style of riding.

Also, nice dodge on the CMBA question. Your response leads me to believe that they, in fact, do not know of your proposal.

I get the sense that you're so busy trying to sell this idea that you've lost sight of what your target clientelle really wants.



Also was that guy from Pinkbike speaking of a ride only trail OR multi use trail. I would agree if it is multi-use then he is in the wrong. But if it is a ride specific trail, he has every right to whine.

Ok I will say it. This person is not the norm when it comes to this style of riding. I don't know about Alberta but in BC we generally have a lot of respect for other peds. The only time I or my friends gets pissy is when those nice and polite hikers don't obey the rules and come on riding trails (designated freeride or xc) and then complain noisily (dang sensor) at us about our speed on our trails.

The ignorance goes both ways and there is no norm. Some hiker realize 'their' mistake and watch carefully and hop off quickly. Others are totally rude and ignorant (especially leashless dog owners) and start stomping their feet in anger. If these trails are already designated then maybe he should look at other options (why you would want to ride on HORSE trails is beyond me anyways) so be it but PLEASE stop generalizing a group of riders.

And at last...I can't believe this thread is still going :D

Maelstrom,

This discussion revolves around specific trails that I PERSONALLY RIDE, so I know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure why you feel the need to add your 2 cents when you know nothing about the area we (I and RMX) are talking about.

The Freeride and DH guys around these parts are very secretive about their trails - which translates into - trails for their use only. Their trails aren't common knowledge, so they don't encounter a lot of conflict. I'm fairly confident that most of them do ride like that. That is why they don't ride the xc and multi-use trails.

For what it's worth, if the situation were reversed and someone was proposing to introduce something into your area (Whistler, North Shore, etc) that you were opposed to, I wouldn't make an ass of myself by jumping to their defense just for the sake of arguing. Especially, if I didn't have a clue about the area.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by rockymtn_girl
Maelstrom,

This discussion revolves around specific trails that I PERSONALLY RIDE, so I know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure why you feel the need to add your 2 cents when you know nothing about the area we (I and RMX) are talking about.

The Freeride and DH guys around these parts are very secretive about their trails - which translates into - trails for their use only. Their trails aren't common knowledge, so they don't encounter a lot of conflict. I'm fairly confident that most of them do ride like that. That is why they don't ride the xc and multi-use trails.

For what it's worth, if the situation were reversed and someone was proposing to introduce something into your area (Whistler, North Shore, etc) that you were opposed to, I wouldn't make an ass of myself by jumping to their defense just for the sake of arguing. Especially, if I didn't have a clue about the area.

:rolleyes:
re-read...I wasn't defending him. I was refering to the fellow at pinkbike and what he said. I was also refering to your insitance in referencing 'freeriders' (which is what that post was mostly about). As I have said before if the trails are multi-use then dhing at full speed is wrong. If you don't want my opinion or others in reference to a public post either pm him directly or don't bother posting on the net. I am not making an ass of myself I am posting about things I know or similar situations I know of.

as for if it was happening here. I wouldn't mind your input. Sometimes a different perspective from a different area is well worth the read and can be helpful.

Esentially what I had posted was a long winded version of this rule.

Ride the trails as they were designed or are currently being ridden. If it is xc, ride xc, not dh. If it is freeride or dh, you had better be going fast and hard or get out. etc..etc...My input is valid.

Cheers :beer:

I am currently investigating a buisness in heli-biking in the Kananaskis region of South Western Alberta. I am basiclly looking for feedback, good and bad alike from other riders. My plan right now is to do more of downhill type buisness similar to the heli-skiing. I would be using established mountain bike trails used by cross-country riders, hikers, and equestrians alike.

This is RMX's post at PinkBike. He states right there in black and white he is attempting to start up a downhill type business using established mountain bike trails used by xc riders, hikers and equestrians alike.

The quote earlier from PinkBike was in direct response to his request.


If you don't want my opinion or others in reference to a public post either pm him directly or don't bother posting on the net.

I don't think that's entirely fair considering RMX posted a question to solicit responses. I have PM'd him as well as responded publicly, however, he doesn't seem willing to share the information I have been asking of him. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's on here - I was merely pointing out that I am speaking specifically of the area and riders....I am not speaking in generalities here.

This plan is obviously not well thought out by RMX otherwise he would be more forthcoming in his responses to me. If I sound p*ssed off, it's because I am. I am not opposed to the idea of heli-biking. In the right area it's a great idea. However, this particular area he's targeting is wrong for this business.

I don't think he honestly thought he would encounter someone so close to home who would challenge him on this.

Just because they don't climb the hills doesn't mean that they are any less hard-core than anyone else.

Yes it does.

For those who like to argue :

And those who belittle people with disabilities are a**holes. Bravo Dirtbikedude. :rolleyes:

Very well done dirtbikedude. Could you be any more offensive if you tried? To whom are you directing your post or do I even need to ask that?

I was sorely tempted to respond to you in kind but then I came to my senses. I don't need to stoop down to your level to point out the obvious....you did that all on your own. :rolleyes:

You guys are sooooo uptight! You need to go for a ride!

I thought it was funny!!!!


L8R

rocky mountain girl-have you ever opened a business before? just wondering because if you did, you would understand why RMX might not be disclosing all of the information at the present time. He is spending a lot of time, energy and money into researching a possible business venture, if he discloses certain bits of information, that can open the doors to other business to step in and try and start the same idea.
Also, there was mention about how catering to "weathier" people wasn't right because they should be able to walk up the hills they want to ride. That is the stupidist thing I have heard all week. Tell me something, if you spent money to go on a vacation to Whistler to go riding, would you spend the money to take the chairlift to the top, or hike up the mountain? Of course you are going to take the chairlift because you are only there for a couple of days, so you want to spend your day riding the trails and enjoying them, not hiking up them.
Finally, this is to whoever mentioned that the helicopters are going to pollute the air, I am taking it that you do not drive? You don't fly? These forms of transportation produce a large amount of pollution as well.


Just to clear something up before everyone starts to scream and wave there arms around. I am not taking sides with either party in this debate, I am simply pointing out comments that have little meaning to this whole issue.

Of course you are going to take the chairlift because you are only there for a couple of days, so you want to spend your day riding the trails and enjoying them, not hiking up them.

Obviously, the point flew directly over your head. I ride with downhill and freeride guys that take pride in riding their bikes to the top, that's one reason they win races. Additionally, it irritates me when an individual shows up and resorts to invective such as "stupid" in reference to someone that has actually invested in this community.


* Sorry 2psykl, but Dirtbikedude's post was juvenile.

if the point went over my head, could you please explain it to me? maybe I am somehow looking at this in the wrong way, but the way I am understanding those comments was that people are lazy if they don't want to hike all the way up the trail so they can ride it. Also, the comment about that harsh word "stupid", give me a break, are you really that uptight that because IN MY OPINION, I thought that was the stupidest thing I had heard all week? you also mentioned that you feel this comment should not have been made by someone new to this board. i am sorry that you feel this way, but could you please tell me where in the ethics code it states that "no person shall have an opinion about a topic". Remember, I am not saying this comment directly to a person, I thought that this comment was IN MY OPINION, a poor remark.

ok, since some people are making a big deal out of this, I am going to ask the person myself......toolfreak, you mention that you feel that by providing a means of transportation to get a bike to the top of a run without walking/riding it up is not a good way to promote this sport. I do not agree, I believe that some people do not enjoy riding uphill for a long length of time (or maybe can't for medical reasons). The point of mountain biking is to have fun and ride, who cares how to go about riding. Wether it is riding uphill for an hour, or coasting down the side of a mountain, riding is riding. People do it for different reasons and enjoy different aspects of it. I only ask that you do not put down certain aspects of riding because when it comes down to it, we are all bikers, and we all enjoy this sport for a reason.

R6....I assume you are unfamiliar with the area being discussed here. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. My opposition to RMX's proposal is in regard to the area he has chosen.

Although I personally would never utilize a heli shuttle, I am not opposed to others using same in an appropriate area. I admit that there is a definite lack of respect on my part for this activity but, to each his own. I don't personally care if people shuttle - this is a personal choice. I purposely DO NOT ride in areas where one could reasonably expect to encounter DH riders, i.e. ski hills, or trails with a shuttle drop-off at the top. I would think that, just as I don't want to be surprised by someone racing down the hill, that person doesn't want to be surprised by me climbing up it either.


RMX might not be disclosing all of the information at the present time. He is spending a lot of time, energy and money into researching a possible business venture, if he discloses certain bits of information, that can open the doors to other business to step in and try and start the same idea.

RMX is proposing a business venture utilizing public park lands. As a stakeholder, I have the right to know this information, and he has a duty to divulge it. End of story. If he was thinking of using private land, then I would agree with you, but that is not the case.


Finally, this is to whoever mentioned that the helicopters are going to pollute the air, I am taking it that you do not drive? You don't fly? These forms of transportation produce a large amount of pollution as well.

The point you missed completely was NOISE POLLUTION.

Sorry i`m late :D


Finally, this is to whoever mentioned that the helicopters are going to pollute the air, I am taking it that you do not drive? You don't fly? These forms of transportation produce a large amount of pollution as well.

R6...thanks for your comments :)
I never mentioned pollution, i spoke about ruining and waste of fuel.
If you compare these forms of transportation, you can easily see what the biggest fuel consumers are!



The point of mountain biking is to have fun and ride, who cares how to go about riding.

Well, i care , The point of mountain biking is to have fun and ride, with respect for nature!!!

You can read it back in every trail etiquette!

As far for the point of riding up hill, I admire bikers, skiers and climbers, who manage to achieve their goals on their own.
But i think helicopter-biking isn`t the way to do this.

We could drink a pint of beer together for the good understanding, cheers :beer: