An excellent article from Velo News (http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/9615.0.html) compiles an injury list as a result from doorings from newspaper clippings. It is not a scientific study, so don't go quoting statistics from it, but it uncovers the real reasons doorings are fatal. It seems that the door itself is not so much of the problem as it is being thrown or swerving into the path of a following car.
From what I read here, the basic gist is that getting doored is not as bad as swerving around it and getting hit by a car from behind. So, the best advice is: 1) don't get doored. This is easy to do; just stay out of the range of the door and keep a sharp watch for people about to leave their cars. But 2) if sh!t happens and you are going to get doored, just take the door and mitigate the damage. Don't ever swerve into traffic to avoid the door. Don't aim for the edge; I've heard it hurts worse. Aim for the center, keep your weight back to keep from getting thrown and kill as much speed as possible. Your bike will probably be damaged or destroyed, and it certainly won't make your day, but it beats getting rolled over by an 18 wheeler
Cycliste
03-16-06, 10:55 AM
...and aim your helmet at the motorists's arm :)
Couldn't agree more, swerving in traffic is deadly, no matter the obstacle.
genec
03-16-06, 11:12 AM
I've heard aiming for the motorist is probably the softest landing you can hope for.
I work to stay out of door zones, but if I ever get into a sqeeze play, the motorist and the interior of the car are my targets.
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 11:15 AM
I've heard aiming for the motorist is probably the softest landing you can hope for.
I work to stay out of door zones, but if I ever get into a sqeeze play, the motorist and the interior of the car are my targets.
My thoughts as well.
peregrine
03-16-06, 11:37 AM
That's a good advice and deffinitely something to keep in mind. Thanks, Brian!
Roody
03-16-06, 11:51 AM
So, the best advice is: 1) don't get doored. This is easy to do; just stay out of the range of the door and keep a sharp watch for people about to leave their cars. But 2) if sh!t happens and you are going to get doored, just take the door and mitigate the damage.It seems like following Step 1 would make Step 2 unnecessary?
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 12:00 PM
It seems like following Step 1 would make Step 2 unnecessary?
These aren't steps, these are options. Option 1 is option 1 because it makes option 2 unnecessary. But sometimes sh!t happens and option 2 is necessary. "Be Prepared" is the Boy Scout motto, and though I quit Boy Scouts a long time ago, it is still good advice.
banerjek
03-16-06, 12:04 PM
2) if sh!t happens and you are going to get doored, just take the door and mitigate the damage. Don't ever swerve into traffic to avoid the door.
I agree with the second sentence, but not necessarily the first. Part of riding requires knowing what's behind you and anticipating doors.
Doors should never be a total surprise -- they're an obvious and common threat so if you ride near them, you should already be thinking about what you'll do when they open. If you've been watching your mirrors, you know whether or not you can swerve. You might have only a split second to react, but that's enough time to make the best decision. Also, speeds must be reduced when riding by doors so you can react. I like to move fast, but there's no way I'll blow by car doors at full speed.
Roody
03-16-06, 12:24 PM
I have never even seen a situation where I was required to ride in a door zone, nor can I even imagine one. Option one I like, Option two is not needed. Why waste time planning how to mitigate a problem that is easily avoided in the first plac?
phoebeisis
03-16-06, 12:30 PM
Good advice-most important-give cars a wide birth,but if you goof and are about to be doored-get on the brakes-sit back-aim for the inner edge of the door(which is furthest away,and which will probably be occupied by a soft DMF)-
You might consider locking your arms.The force of the decel will pivot you upward and around,and with luck your back will hit rather than your face-head.This is strictly optional,but I don't want to hit face first.Luck,Charlie
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 01:15 PM
I agree with the second sentence, but not necessarily the first. Part of riding requires knowing what's behind you and anticipating doors.
Doors should never be a total surprise -- they're an obvious and common threat so if you ride near them, you should already be thinking about what you'll do when they open. If you've been watching your mirrors, you know whether or not you can swerve. You might have only a split second to react, but that's enough time to make the best decision. Also, speeds must be reduced when riding by doors so you can react. I like to move fast, but there's no way I'll blow by car doors at full speed.
I totally agree; but sh!t does happen, and by definition, it is not anticipated. Now, I've never been doored, largely because I prevent it from happening in the first place. But things happen, and sometimes extremely quickly on the road. Like HH said, an accident happens when two or more things go wrong or unexpected. Like misjudging and getting pinned alongside a line of cars and a door opens.
And while doors should never be a complete suprise, the simple act of having your eyes trained elsewhere for a split second is enough to be taken off guard, especially if some other crisis is happening simultaneously. Defense by avoidance is best, but is never a sure bet. Like the terrorist said to the president in some movie or another: "You have foiled me on this occasion, but while you have to get lucky every single time, I only have to be lucky once." Not an exact quote, but highlights the single disadvantage of relying solely on avoidance for a defense. To avoid a door or a door zone, you've got to notice the situation every single time. Not hard to do, but every once in a while you will slip up. The door only has to be lucky once to really put you off your day.
Roody - respectfully, if you've never had unexpected stuff happen, or have never found yourself at the convergence of a couple bad things all happening at once, you haven't been riding for that long. Nature never respects a lack of imagination. If it is possible for a bicyclist to ride in a door zone, then it is very likely you will find yourself in one at some time or another, and in a situation you would have never dreamed would have happened.
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 01:18 PM
Good advice-most important-give cars a wide birth,but if you goof and are about to be doored-get on the brakes-sit back-aim for the inner edge of the door(which is furthest away,and which will probably be occupied by a soft DMF)-
You might consider locking your arms.The force of the decel will pivot you upward and around,and with luck your back will hit rather than your face-head.This is strictly optional,but I don't want to hit face first.Luck,Charlie
Yes with the inner edge of the door. No on the locking arms. With locked arms, you won't go face in on the pavement, but you will also likely sprain both wrists, break both elbows, and dislocate both shoulders. Better, if you are going to flip, to let go of the handlebars and kind of leap over the bike. Hit with the outside edge of your hand on the ground with the elbow bent and roll around the bent arm. It will keep your face clean and keep your arms intact.
Hawkear
03-16-06, 01:33 PM
I have never even seen a situation where I was required to ride in a door zone, nor can I even imagine one. Option one I like, Option two is not needed. Why waste time planning how to mitigate a problem that is easily avoided in the first plac?
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Unless you feel like being constrained by a dumb bicycle lane that is designed to be in the door zone, there's no reason to ride in an unsafe place like that.
EricDJ
03-16-06, 02:15 PM
In Los Angeles the door zone can be where you are. On my mother in laws street, its slightly enough room for two vehicles, not if one one is an suv. A few weeks ago I arrived to see that a moron on the block opened her door without looking and a small asian truck swerved to avoid it and still clipped the door. But he proceeded to hit a Mits Eclipse head on thus totalling his car and the Mits. The force of the impact shoved the Mits into a parked car on the other side of the street. Now while the woman who openened the door is liable for it, the driver could still have his truck after a minor repair after hitting her door, sure it would have damaged her car more this way but who cares.
DCCommuter
03-16-06, 02:19 PM
A good (and chilling) article on the subject:
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/doorzone/laird1.htm
banerjek
03-16-06, 02:34 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Unless you feel like being constrained by a dumb bicycle lane that is designed to be in the door zone, there's no reason to ride in an unsafe place like that.
It rarely makes sense, and even then only at very low speeds. There's about a mile long stretch along my commute where the marked "bike lane" is really a door zone so that people can get out of their cars to shop.
I ride in the street, though I'll move into the "bike lane" to let cars pass when I can do so without being pinned. Amazingly enough, no one has ever yelled at me on this stretch to use the bike lane. Enough of them probably see the doors opening themselves that they know I'm doing the only thing that makes sense.
Helmet Head
03-16-06, 02:53 PM
While I can't disagree with the gist of the article, the idea that a cyclist heading for a door at 15+ mph will do anything other than instinctively swerve to get around it, is hard to believe to be realistic.
There is no such thing as "getting" doored. It's not something that happens to you, it's something you do to yourself. A cyclist does not get doored, he doors himself.
Until a cyclist realizes that dooring is something he does to himself, he will continue to be vulnerable to it.
The only solution is to choose a lane position that is 5 feet, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 5 feet, from the left side of parked cars. Unfortunately, if a bike lane is involved, that almost always means riding on the stripe or to the left of it.
The necessary spacing from parked vehicles that bicyclists require can be easily calculated. It
must be assumed that motor vehicles will be parked with their tires at least as far left as the
longitudinal parking line, and that open doors will extend 45" beyond this, the longest measured
door (Table 1). Bicyclists should be positioned so that their right side is 48" from the parking
line to provide lateral clearance from an opened door. A bicycle is about 24" wide. Therefore,
the bicycle tires should track a minimum of 60" (5') from the parking line.
You guys miss the whole point of the exercise. But whatever. Sooner or later, you will discover the truth of the statement that: Nature does not respect a lack of imagination.
No, dooring yourself is not why I posted this. Getting doored is what happens when two improbable events intersect to force the issue. If you cannot imagine this happening to you; well I cannot help you. All I can say is posted in bold in the paragraph above.
One last thing to HH: You emphasis that "you door yourself" but yet you practice emergency right turns to avoid a right hook. Isn't it also the truth that, per your ideology, you are not right hooked, but rather you right hook yourself. If this is the case, then why do you practice the emergency right turn?
All I am saying is that, because it is possible for a cyclist to fit into a door zone, it is almost certain that at some point in your cycling career you will end up in it, due to neglegence or circumstance. If circumstance happens, and a door opens, it is nice to know what to do.
As to the instinctive swerve; the whole point of posting this is to override instinct by providing a procedure in advance. It remains that to swerve (wildly) is probably the worse thing one can do unless it is certain there is no car coming from behind. The best outcome, of course, assuming you somehow find yourself in the door zone and headed toward an open door, is to transition left with due diligence. But if it must be an uncontrolled swerve to get around the door, better to take the door than get hit from behind.
genec
03-16-06, 03:26 PM
It is interesting that dooring is quite easily preventable by the cyclist, yet is one of those poor design examples that one can point to in bike lanes. This is a well known hazard, yet bike lanes typically do not allow for any special circumstances around parked vehicles... leading to the issue once again, that traffic engineers must be made aware of this problem.
None of the "standards" used by engineers seems to show this area as a hazard. The MUTCD is a key document that engineers refer to... and yet this document shows BL as being right in the "door zone."
Helmet Head
03-16-06, 03:53 PM
One last thing to HH: You emphasis that "you door yourself" but yet you practice emergency right turns to avoid a right hook. Isn't it also the truth that, per your ideology, you are not right hooked, but rather you right hook yourself. If this is the case, then why do you practice the emergency right turn?
The only time I ever practiced emergency right turns was in my Road 1 and 2 classes. Since I've started riding vehicularly 2.5 years ago, I haven't come close to needing to execute one.
Door zone bike lanes are only a problem (with respect to being in the door zone), when cars are parked. Yet cyclists and motorists think that's where cyclists are supposed to ride regardless of the presence of parked cars.
Bike lanes on a street with onstreet parking makes no sense.
The left edge of a 4' bike lane would have to be 9 feet out from the parking line (assuming there is a parking line), to give cyclists a 4' lane all of which is 5 or more feet from the parked cars.
Just like everywhere else, dynamic lane positioning, with the cyclist adjusting to the current conditions and factors, works much better than a static bike lane.
Roody
03-16-06, 04:13 PM
Roody - respectfully, if you've never had unexpected stuff happen, or have never found yourself at the convergence of a couple bad things all happening at once, you haven't been riding for that long. Nature never respects a lack of imagination. If it is possible for a bicyclist to ride in a door zone, then it is very likely you will find yourself in one at some time or another, and in a situation you would have never dreamed would have happened. Yeah Brian, you're right. I haven't been riding long enough to figure out how a parked car could sneak up on me and door me. Maybe you could explain it to me?
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 04:15 PM
The only time I ever practiced emergency right turns was in my Road 1 and 2 classes. Since I've started riding vehicularly 2.5 years ago, I haven't come close to needing to execute one.
Door zone bike lanes are only a problem (with respect to being in the door zone), when cars are parked. Yet cyclists and motorists think that's where cyclists are supposed to ride regardless of the presence of parked cars.
Bike lanes on a street with onstreet parking makes no sense.
The left edge of a 4' bike lane would have to be 9 feet out from the parking line (assuming there is a parking line), to give cyclists a 4' lane all of which is 5 or more feet from the parked cars.
Just like everywhere else, dynamic lane positioning, with the cyclist adjusting to the current conditions and factors, works much better than a static bike lane.
Good to hear that you've never needed to perform one (emergency right turn). I share your concern about bike lanes in door zones; however, we disagree about the solution. We will leave it at that for now, as this thread is not about bike lanes in door zones.
I am puzzled about how anything which mentions dooring gets the "never be in the situation" treatment by you and others; essentially a thread hijack so you can get on the soapbox. Especially this thread, where I wrote right off that one should never be in the door zone in the first place. This was not about how to avoid being doored; it is assumed that cyclists are generally not in a position to be doored. It is about what to do if the dooring is inevitible.
Yea, yea... yadda, yadda, yadda... won't ever happen if you follow VC. I'll just repeat: Nature does not respect a lack of imagination.
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 04:19 PM
Yeah Brian, you're right. I haven't been riding long enough to figure out how a parked car could sneak up on me and door me. Maybe you could explain it to me?
Chill dude. What's bitten you lately? Perhaps you should take a break from these forums. I think it is getting to you.
BTW, if you read my posts, you will find the answer. If you still don't know the answer after reading my posts, you haven't been riding long enough to know what I am talking about. We will leave it at that.
Roody
03-16-06, 04:28 PM
Chill dude. What's bitten you lately? Perhaps you should take a break from these forums. I think it is getting to you.
BTW, if you read my posts, you will find the answer. If you still don't know the answer after reading my posts, you haven't been riding long enough to know what I am talking about. We will leave it at that.
Well I reread your posts and I still don't get it. Maybe you're saying a moving car might come straight at you, forcing you into the door zone? I guess that could happen, but I would not spend a lot of time planning for something so unlikely.
Another thing I don't understand is, you posted originally, I assume, in order to help out riders who are less experienced than yourself. Then you turn around and say if I don't understand it's because I haven't been riding long enough, so you can't explain it to me.
genec
03-16-06, 04:34 PM
Yeah Brian, you're right. I haven't been riding long enough to figure out how a parked car could sneak up on me and door me. Maybe you could explain it to me?
Depends on where you are hiding... if you are within about 2-3 feet of a parked car... damn those things can get right up on you. But if you follow HH's recommendation of about 5 feet away... well heck, you can see 'em comin'.
Of course if you are using a bike lane, that 5 feet away bit means you are probably riding right on the lane stripe. Go for it... in fact ride a foot to the left of the lane stripe and watch out for the broken up asphalt on the road there... but hey, you have avoided the nasty "door zone."
Next week we'll talk about stalking the deadly Nauga (http://www.naugahyde.com/history.html)...
Roody
03-16-06, 04:41 PM
One of those deadly Naugas gets me almost every night, disguised as a LazyBoy chair. He renders me unconscious while I'm reading, and when I finally wake up I don't know what happened! :D
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 04:43 PM
Roody- Say you are outside the door zone and a car forces his way around you and starts squeezing you to the side, against the row of parked cars. Before you can react, someone opens a door. Now you are facing an open door in the door zone. You are there unintentionally, but you are there. Like HH said, it is the convergence of two or more happenings which force you in a position where you don't want to be.
But I have a simpler formula. 1) a door zone exists. 2) cyclists are physically able to occupy it. 3) because of (1) and (2), I assume that at some point, no matter my intentions, I will be in a door zone and need to react to a door. I make a plan for it because the initial reaction, as HH pointed out, is probably a fatal one. If the plan never gets used, then so much the better.
Second. I posted this to get people aware of the article and my reaction to it. This is a transfer of information, not a teaching thread. I never assume people are less experienced then myself unless they start proving it to me by their comments. Comments such as:
I have never even seen a situation where I was required to ride in a door zone, nor can I even imagine one. Option one I like, Option two is not needed. Why waste time planning how to mitigate a problem that is easily avoided in the first place?
indicates that you have not been riding long enough to know that sometimes unintended things happen and it is better to be prepared than not. I'd be happy as a clam to know that nobody ever needed to follow this advice and purposefully ran their bike into a door to avoid the larger danger of swerving into traffic.
Roody
03-16-06, 04:46 PM
Pretty condescending Brian. But thanks for the explanation.
Helmet Head
03-16-06, 04:59 PM
Brian,
If I think you're disseminating information based on flawed paradigms, I'm going to point it out. If you think that's highjacking, that's your issue.
The advice here makes about as much sense as carrying around an atmosphere suit, in case you find yourself on the moon.
I've reread your posts too. Like Roody, i can't figure out how a cyclist suddenly finds himself riding in a door zone against his will. That only happens if you don't treat it as the non-option that it is. Any other paradigm is flawed.
OK, a homocidal driver could conceivably force a cyclist into riding in the door zone, but that's so unlikely, it's not worth considering.
Another flawed paradigm is one that confuses a frustrated driver who wishes the cyclist was not in his way, and maybe even honks and guns his engine (actions that should be ignored, or, at most, handled with a smile and a wave), with a homocidal driver who will actually force a cyclist into a door zone.
There is no excuse for riding (at above ped speeds) in a door zone.
Helmet Head
03-16-06, 05:14 PM
Roody- Say you are outside the door zone and a car forces his way around you and starts squeezing you to the side, against the row of parked cars. Before you can react, someone opens a door. Now you are facing an open door in the door zone. You are there unintentionally, but you are there. Like HH said, it is the convergence of two or more happenings which force you in a position where you don't want to be.
But I have a simpler formula. 1) a door zone exists. 2) cyclists are physically able to occupy it. 3) because of (1) and (2), I assume that at some point, no matter my intentions, I will be in a door zone and need to react to a door. I make a plan for it because the initial reaction, as HH pointed out, is probably a fatal one. If the plan never gets used, then so much the better.
Second. I posted this to get people aware of the article and my reaction to it. This is a transfer of information, not a teaching thread. I never assume people are less experienced then myself unless they start proving it to me by their comments. Comments such as:
indicates that you have not been riding long enough to know that sometimes unintended things happen and it is better to be prepared than not. I'd be happy as a clam to know that nobody ever needed to follow this advice and purposefully ran their bike into a door to avoid the larger danger of swerving into traffic.
Talking about proving inexperience with their comments, this is a beaut.
You should be aware (as apparently you're not), that cars cannot move laterally without first moving longitudinally.
So if a car beside you starts moving laterally closer to you, all you have to do is slow down and get behind it. The faster it's going, the closer to instantly is the time that you can do that. There is no need to move laterally into a door zone.
The very idea that you "might" be "forced" into a door zone is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that prevents one from seeing, indeed sensing, the appropriate solution that allows one to avoid the door zone in situations like the one you raised. This is what I mean by a flawed paradigm.
Come up with 100 more theoretical situations of how a cyclist might be "forced" into a door zone, and I'll come up with 100 reasonable solutions that allow him to avoid it after all, because I'm working with a paradigm that does not accept riding in a door zone (at speed) as an option. That's the point that makes the advice in the OP moot, and, arguably, misdirecting.
sbhikes
03-16-06, 05:45 PM
Well, I've almost been doored (or almost doored myself) by simply riding down a narrow residential street (where there is no non-door-zone and no bike lane) and letting my mind wander. It's not all about bike lanes.
I appreciate what Brian has to say. It is instinctual to want to swerve out of the way of a solid object coming toward your face. But I guess it's like a lot of counterintuitive things. Like when you start to skid in your car the instinct is to slam on the brakes, which is bad. It's good to know that you should fight your instinct to swerve, especially if you are on a busy road, and simply hit the door.
My hope is that I can roll under it if I duck my head. :D
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 05:53 PM
Pretty condescending Brian. But thanks for the explanation.
Condenscending remarks get condenscending responses. That's all I have to say about that. Look back at your first comment to see what I mean. Nobody is qualified to say "never."
helvetica
03-16-06, 05:59 PM
So if you nail someones door and it breaks / breaks your bike who is at fault?
Helmet Head
03-16-06, 06:03 PM
So if you nail someones door and it breaks / breaks your bike who is at fault?
Legally, the person who opened the door is at fault. Good luck if it's the 5 year old in the back seat.
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 06:22 PM
Talking about proving inexperience with their comments, this is a beaut.
You should be aware (as apparently you're not), that cars cannot move laterally without first moving longitudinally.
So if a car beside you starts moving laterally closer to you, all you have to do is slow down and get behind it. The faster it's going, the closer to instantly is the time that you can do that. There is no need to move laterally into a door zone.
The very idea that you "might" be "forced" into a door zone is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that prevents one from seeing, indeed sensing, the appropriate solution that allows one to avoid the door zone in situations like the one you raised. This is what I mean by a flawed paradigm.
Come up with 100 more theoretical situations of how a cyclist might be "forced" into a door zone, and I'll come up with 100 reasonable solutions that allow him to avoid it after all, because I'm working with a paradigm that does not accept riding in a door zone (at speed) as an option. That's the point that makes the advice in the OP moot, and, arguably, misdirecting.
First, flawed paradigms are in the eyes of the beholder. Second, saying simply to "be prepared" is not espousing a paradigm.
Third, yes, for any situation, I, to, can come up with a number of reasonable solutions. Any accident can be avoided; this is not the issue. It is when the accident is not avoided when there is a problem. Are you saying that, if the cyclist makes a mistake, you are out of advice?
Ach, why am I arguing over this. You're right. If the cyclist makes a mistake, he or she is screwed. End of story. [/sarcasm]
Actually, before I am done, let me ask. Would you risk a head on collision over riding in the door zone? Perhaps a car crosses the center line. Never mind. Retorical question. I shouldn't have asked. You are God. You never make errors in judgement. You never make mistakes. And of course, you have perfect forsight. You see, I am not God. I do sometimes make errors in judgement. I sometimes make mistakes. My forsight is not crystal clear all the time. All I can do is plan. YMMV
For everyone else on this forum, note: it is dangerous to offer advice or ideas on this forum. It might be espousing a dangerous paradigm, and we wouldn't want that. Keep your experience and your thoughts to yourself least the idea police come along and muddle things up in politics. If you want to know the best way to fall so as to not hurt yourself, we can only tell you "don't fall." If you want to know how best to avoid hurting yourself in a collision with a crossing car, we can only say "you should have seen the car before you were in a position to collide with it." And finally, if you want to know how best to hit a door to not get hurt or killed should the possiblity arise, we can only say "don't ride where you will be hit."
Jesus, this is ludicrous...
slagjumper
03-16-06, 07:03 PM
It makes good sense to stay out of the door zone, regardless of the goofy door zone bike lane. I was troubled by a recent trip to Cambridge, MA where I saw that for the first time.
http://www.labreform.org/pretending.html
Keep in mind, that you could be doored from either direction. Parked cars on the right, bike traveling between the parked cars and slow traffic, and a passenger decides to exit the car in jammed traffic. Riding this way is of course not VC, but it is common and reasonable, you just have to be ready. There is one block on my commute home that is always congested; it takes 5 minutes to do it by car and 1 minute to leisurely ride between the parked cars and the stopped cars in traffic. Most people would do this and the car drivers don’t even care. but you have to be ready for a dooring.
Bicycles may legally travel between parked cars and traffic. If someone "enters the street at the duress of others" they are to blame. Hit that door. You have a great legal case, and you've got the driver, because they are likely parked. Never swerve, unless you know nothing is behind you, and you should always know what is behind you. If in doubt, hit the middle of the door.
Many years back a friend Joe was zooming down a 12 % grade at about 25 mph, when a bozo opened the 150 pound door on his 1976 Cadillac Eldorado. Joe bent the doors hinges so badly that the door would not close. He wrecked his fork, but suffered no significant physical injuries. Of course the driver was pissed, but he had to pay.
Condenscending remarks get condenscending responses. That's all I have to say about that. Look back at your first comment to see what I mean. Nobody is qualified to say "never."
Well I feel qualified to say that I never ride in door zones and I can't see myself being tricked into it.
MarkS
03-16-06, 07:59 PM
There is no excuse for riding (at above ped speeds) in a door zone.
Will the "I was riding outside the door zone" excuse hold up in court when you have to explain why you weren't in the BL? Not sure if it works as one of the exceptions.
Dchiefransom
03-16-06, 08:48 PM
Will the "I was riding outside the door zone" excuse hold up in court when you have to explain why you weren't in the BL? Not sure if it works as one of the exceptions.
Actually, it most likely won't. The CHP lobbied hard and killed a rewording of the Vehicle Code that would have specifically changed the bike lane standards to keep us out of the door zone while in the bike lane. Those same police officers are the ones that write tickets.
HH, I've been forced to the right three times while occupying the center of a lane. In the worst one, I didn't have parked cars to my right, it was a right turn lane with cars doing about 20 mph heading onto a freeway on ramp. I ended up between two narrow lanes of traffic, riding the white line for about 100 yards. Yes, it DOES happen.
slagjumper
03-16-06, 09:11 PM
Will the "I was riding outside the door zone" excuse hold up in court when you have to explain why you weren't in the BL? Not sure if it works as one of the exceptions.
I think that this depends on state and local laws. That is why it is important to oppose laws that require that you ride in the bike lanes. In Cambridge MA, it does not appear that it is illegal to ride outside of the idiotic door zone bike lanes. If you are going faster than 5 mph in the door zone, you will be legally correct, but also be putting yourself in a more dangerous situation.
If you hit your right handle bar into the door, you will be thrown into traffic to the left. If I was going to hit the door for what ever reason, I’d try to direct my momentum so that I landed on the hood.
I could not in good conscience support any door zone bike lane, unless there were virtually no parked cars, or high-speed right turns. The ones in Cambridge are ridiculous in that these direct high speed bike traffic into obvious death zones.
Ms. Laird could have understood that the relative risk of riding in the "door zone" from "dooring" collisions and other crashes is many times higher than the risk of being struck by overtaking vehicles when riding outside the "door zone." She might then have ridden at the very left edge of the marked bike lane, or outside the lane.
slvoid
03-16-06, 10:18 PM
I've always said, ride at least 4-5ft away from the door zone, best thing is to actually stay in the lane, this helps keep cars behind you should you need to avoid a double parked car, etc.
However, I suspect a lot of people who say "just don't get doored", don't understand that you can get pretty close to car doors everyday just biking around NYC, it's unavoidable. In those cases, learn to look for tell tale signs that someone's exiting, always be aware of what's behind you, etc, and prepare yourself if you hear that unmistakable click.
Brian Ratliff
03-16-06, 11:01 PM
Well I feel qualified to say that I never ride in door zones and I can't see myself being tricked into it.
Okay, okay... you win. You will never ride in a door zone, and you will never be forced into one either. But, for your own sake, heed the warning: nature doesn't respect a lack of imagination. Just because you cannot see yourself in a situation where you are forced to the right into a door lane, doesn't mean it cannot happen. If it can happen, it will happen, sooner or later if you ride long enough. It has certainly happened to me; a car comes up beside me, keeps pace and forces me to the right out of the center of the lane. I almost fell off a bridge onto some railroad tracks because of that. Another guy on the commute forum started a thread about how he was pingponged between a parked car and a moving car due to a miscalculation on the part of both him and the driver. It has probably also happened to HH, though it was probably more than 2.5 years ago, so he will tend to credit it to his lack of vehicular cycling principles rather than to circumstance.
It is extremely easy to sit behind a keyboard and write that it "will never happen to me." Nature, though, has this annoying habit of intervening when you least expect it.
peregrine
03-16-06, 11:42 PM
You should be aware (as apparently you're not), that cars cannot move laterally without first moving longitudinally.
So if a car beside you starts moving laterally closer to you, all you have to do is slow down and get behind it. The faster it's going, the closer to instantly is the time that you can do that. There is no need to move laterally into a door zone.
The very idea that you "might" be "forced" into a door zone is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that prevents one from seeing, indeed sensing, the appropriate solution that allows one to avoid the door zone in situations like the one you raised. This is what I mean by a flawed paradigm.
Come up with 100 more theoretical situations of how a cyclist might be "forced" into a door zone, and I'll come up with 100 reasonable solutions that allow him to avoid it after all, because I'm working with a paradigm that does not accept riding in a door zone (at speed) as an option. That's the point that makes the advice in the OP moot, and, arguably, misdirecting.
Let me share with you a situation that has happened to me a couple of times during my commute and I'd appreciate it if you could come up with a reasonable solution to avoid it.
The last 1/2 mile takes me up a steep hill on a narrow two-way street with no defined lanes whatsoever. It's a neighbourhood street with a number of low-visibility turns. There are cars parked on both sides so that there's hardly room for two SUV's to pass each other. I ride 4.5 - 5 feet from the parked cars.
A few times it has happened that a motorist starts passing me (at ~20 - 25 mph) right before a turn, when (as luck would usually have it) a car appears from the opposite direction. The motorist has either almost passed me or is just alongside me and by instinct starts swerving to the right and increases speed. I think at this point the driver is more concerned with a collision with another motor vehicle than with me. The couple of times this happened my instincts have always been to swerve to the right which has brought me within a foot of the parked cars and undoubtedly in the 'door zone'.
What do you think I'm doing wrong?
John C. Ratliff
03-17-06, 12:06 AM
Since this is on being doored (it's hard to imagine me opening a car door, then purposely colliding with it HH--"dooring yourself"), I'll offer an alternative solution. Ride a recumbant bicycle. You are much less likely to be hurt by a car door on a recumbant, especially one that has over-seat steering and a faring. And another plus is that while you'll probably damage the bicycle, you can really intimidate the driver;) And, going feet-first has its advantages too.
'Just a thought...I haven't worried about being doored, even while being fairly close to the car, since I converted to the recumbant. Also, I'm in a much better position than on other bicycles to see whether there is a driver about to open a door, as I'm at the driver's eye height for most vehicles.
John
John C. Ratliff
03-17-06, 12:10 AM
Let me share with you a situation that has happened to me a couple of times during my commute and I'd appreciate it if you could come up with a reasonable solution to avoid it.
The last 1/2 mile takes me up a steep hill on a narrow two-way street with no defined lanes whatsoever. It's a neighbourhood street with a number of low-visibility turns. There are cars parked on both sides so that there's hardly room for two SUV's to pass each other. I ride 4.5 - 5 feet from the parked cars.
A few times it has happened that a motorist starts passing me (at ~20 - 25 mph) right before a turn, when (as luck would usually have it) a car appears from the opposite direction. The motorist has either almost passed me or is just alongside me and by instinct starts swerving to the right and increases speed. I think at this point the driver is more concerned with a collision with another motor vehicle than with me. The couple of times this happened my instincts have always been to swerve to the right which has brought me within a foot of the parked cars and undoubtedly in the 'door zone'.
What do you think I'm doing wrong?
Check out the sidewalk. You're going uphill rather slowly anyway...this way, you've got metal (other stationary cars) between you and the moving cars and SUVs, and perhaps a few trees too. Hopefully, the trees are large oaks with good persuasive powers over cars.
Or, you could look for an alternative route a few streets one side or the other of this one.
A final possibility is to vary your hours of riding, and not ride this street during peak traffic times (varies from place to place). That way, there is less likelihood of two cars intersecting your path at the same time and place.
John
peregrine
03-17-06, 12:55 AM
Check out the sidewalk. You're going uphill rather slowly anyway...this way, you've got metal (other stationary cars) between you and the moving cars and SUVs, and perhaps a few trees too. Hopefully, the trees are large oaks with good persuasive powers over cars.
Or, you could look for an alternative route a few streets one side or the other of this one.
A final possibility is to vary your hours of riding, and not ride this street during peak traffic times (varies from place to place). That way, there is less likelihood of two cars intersecting your path at the same time and place.
John
Nah, I wouldn't ride on the sidewalk. Besides, I've never felt in that much danger. This has only happend a couple of times in the months I've commuted on that route and people drive quite slowly, so I've always had time to react AND to check if there's someone in the parked car about to get out. Also, it's the only street up to OHSU that doesn't have smelly annoying buses on it :p
The hours of riding is deffinitely something I should consider though.
slvoid
03-17-06, 05:22 AM
The 'bent is a pretty good idea. You end up cutting the driver's arm off and sawing into the door with the chain ring if you get doored...
Brian Ratliff
03-17-06, 07:32 AM
The 'bent is a pretty good idea. You end up cutting the driver's arm off and sawing into the door with the chain ring if you get doored...
Reading what you wrote and then seeing your avatar with the lab coat and the glove gave me a bit of a shudder... :p
I-Like-To-Bike
03-17-06, 08:23 AM
I suspect a lot of people who say "just don't get doored", don't understand that you can get pretty close to car doors everyday just biking around NYC, it's unavoidable.
EXACTLY! - and not only in NYC but in many other densly populated older cities where the streets are filled with the parked cars of residents, shoppers and others who don't have the option of off street parking. Such streets only have one useable narrow lane plus space along side parked cars. And endless motorized traffic in that one narrow lane. My experience with such a city is in Philadelphia and to a lesser degree in Chicago.
It is not surprising that BF's self centered "experts" cannot imagine such areas, and cannot imagine cycling scenarios that do not match the boulevards used for their suburban training rides. Nor that they find it so easy to declare "Just Say No" to activities are not part of their simple minded scenarios.
Their profound provincialism makes their cycling advice useful only to those whose cycling experience/environment also is limited to that of the self proclaimed experts' cycling profile.
John C. Ratliff
03-17-06, 08:56 AM
Actually, with my Rans Stratus with a Windwrap Faring, it would be a soft landing for both me and the driver.
Concerning getting up to OHSU Peregrine, there is a very nice bike path just beside Twilliger. You would have to cross at the OHSU entrance, but I believe there's a crosswalk at the entrance. Going up that other road up the hill doesn't give much clearance at all, with the curves and the terraine blocking the view. I've seen several people biking up that road (I don't even drive it anymore, and my wife works up there). The Bicycle Transportation Allignance is a good resource:
http://www.bta4bikes.org/
Looking at Google Maps, the route to OHSU via SW Twilliger Blvd, that has the bike path beside it, is pretty good. You could go there, and up to the campus an SW Campus Dr.
I've followed this path up over the hill to the Beaverton-Hillsbale Highway, and on to the Westside from there. It works much better than going up over the hill via Burnside. But now, if you go up to the zoo through the city, you can get over on a bike path beside Hwy 26.
But getting back to OHSU, the SW Sam Jackson Road is very problematical from a safety standpoint, with blind curves and a lot of traffic (less with the construction though). There are some convex mirrors on the road now for you to look at though, but not much "wiggle room" if you see something in your mirror and on the convex mirror simultaniously.