sabertooth
03-16-06, 10:27 PM
Are you car free because you are concerned about the environment? Have you thought about how much meat you eat?
See http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/LessMeat.pdf
See http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/LessMeat.pdf
View Full Version : How much meat do you eat?
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ken cummings
03-16-06, 11:40 PM
No. If I thought of how little meat I eat I would get depressed. I thank my brother for liking to kill game animals. I get 30 to 50 lb of elk, moose, caribou, duck, pig, a year as his freezer keeps overloading.
twochins
03-17-06, 12:00 AM
Are you car free because you are concerned about the environment? Have you thought about how much meat you eat?
See http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/LessMeat.pdf
i love meat, i don't know how i could have an active lifestyle without it...need the protien for muscles
eating meat doesn't have anything to do with global warming or environment, for me
See http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/LessMeat.pdf
i love meat, i don't know how i could have an active lifestyle without it...need the protien for muscles
eating meat doesn't have anything to do with global warming or environment, for me
matagi
03-17-06, 02:24 AM
About once a month - not because I don't like meat, quite the contrary. However, good quality organic cuts are expensive.
-=Łem in Pa=-
03-17-06, 02:27 AM
None since '78
sentinel
03-17-06, 03:57 AM
I had a great steak last night.
misteralz
03-17-06, 06:28 AM
Deer here are vermin - I'll quite happily kill them and eat them.
Read a "Top Tip" in Viz recently about vegetarians, which went a little something like this...
"If, as a meat-eater, you are invited to a vegetarians for dinner, inform them of your special dietary requirements and request a side of lamb or a nice juicy steak. Because if you had them round, they'd more than likely whitter on about nut roasts" :D :D :D
Read a "Top Tip" in Viz recently about vegetarians, which went a little something like this...
"If, as a meat-eater, you are invited to a vegetarians for dinner, inform them of your special dietary requirements and request a side of lamb or a nice juicy steak. Because if you had them round, they'd more than likely whitter on about nut roasts" :D :D :D
oneredstar
03-17-06, 08:20 AM
I have not eaten meat since 1993. I keep track of what I eat and make sure that I am on top of all my nutritional needs.
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for the link.
lala
03-17-06, 08:35 AM
Not much. I don't prepare it myself, except the odd organic bacon/sausage. When I eat out (not often) sometimes, I'll eat a little....mostly responsibly raised meats.
brokenrobot
03-17-06, 09:28 AM
I had essentially given up red mean a long while back as mad cow started to hit. Lately, though, it occurred to me: do I really want to be the last man standing, obligated to change the diapers on all the carnivores who've lost their minds? Probably not!
GGDub
03-17-06, 09:55 AM
While I agree with a lot of those points, singling out meat production as the problem is rather silly. All types of agriculture have a negative impact on the environment. Even organic farming is done on land that has been converted from its natural state and causes unbalances in drainage and recharge to aquifers. Groundwater/surface water pollution caused by feedlots is bad but this pollution pales in comparison to pollution caused by mining activities (I'm a hydrogeologist btw). Cyanide, arsenic and other heavy metals are just some of the fun stuff that is released into watersheds. Our bikes are a direct result of mining, so its best to keep that in mind when you point out someone else's bad habits.
FXjohn
03-17-06, 10:00 AM
I had essentially given up red mean a long while back as mad cow started to hit. Lately, though, it occurred to me: do I really want to be the last man standing, obligated to change the diapers on all the carnivores who've lost their minds? Probably not!
Good to see you have a realistic perspective on the danger.
Good to see you have a realistic perspective on the danger.
sabertooth
03-17-06, 11:47 AM
While I agree with a lot of those points, singling out meat production as the problem is rather silly. All types of agriculture have a negative impact on the environment. Even organic farming is done on land that has been converted from its natural state and causes unbalances in drainage and recharge to aquifers. Groundwater/surface water pollution caused by feedlots is bad but this pollution pales in comparison to pollution caused by mining activities (I'm a hydrogeologist btw). Cyanide, arsenic and other heavy metals are just some of the fun stuff that is released into watersheds. Our bikes are a direct result of mining, so its best to keep that in mind when you point out someone else's bad habits.
Meat production was not singled out as "the" problem. The claim was that eating less meat would probably be among the top five responses to the question, "What are the most important things I can do to help protect the environment?"
To me, the interesting point is not that agriculture also harms the environment, but that meat production can be so much more harmful than crop production: "To produce one calorie of protein from soy takes two calories of fossil fuel. For beef it takes 54 calories."
The mining issue you point out is probably legitimate (I'm not a hydrogeologist btw). However, it seems logical to me that someone who consumes a car is doing much more damage (by supporting mining) than someone who consumes a bicycle instead. (Here's what the NWEI has to say about cars, btw: http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/CarImpact.pdf)
The section "What You Can Do" looks at multiple ways to address the problem. For example, instead of telling people to stop eating meat completely, it suggests reducing your consumption and/or buying meat from animals raised locally on small farms.
Neither the problem nor the recommendations seem silly to me.
Meat production was not singled out as "the" problem. The claim was that eating less meat would probably be among the top five responses to the question, "What are the most important things I can do to help protect the environment?"
To me, the interesting point is not that agriculture also harms the environment, but that meat production can be so much more harmful than crop production: "To produce one calorie of protein from soy takes two calories of fossil fuel. For beef it takes 54 calories."
The mining issue you point out is probably legitimate (I'm not a hydrogeologist btw). However, it seems logical to me that someone who consumes a car is doing much more damage (by supporting mining) than someone who consumes a bicycle instead. (Here's what the NWEI has to say about cars, btw: http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/CarImpact.pdf)
The section "What You Can Do" looks at multiple ways to address the problem. For example, instead of telling people to stop eating meat completely, it suggests reducing your consumption and/or buying meat from animals raised locally on small farms.
Neither the problem nor the recommendations seem silly to me.
Roody
03-17-06, 12:14 PM
People do get touchy about this topic! Why?
GGDub
03-17-06, 12:30 PM
Meat production was not singled out as "the" problem. The claim was that eating less meat would probably be among the top five responses to the question, "What are the most important things I can do to help protect the environment?"
To me, the interesting point is not that agriculture also harms the environment, but that meat production can be so much more harmful than crop production: "To produce one calorie of protein from soy takes two calories of fossil fuel. For beef it takes 54 calories."
The mining issue you point out is probably legitimate (I'm not a hydrogeologist btw). However, it seems logical to me that someone who consumes a car is doing much more damage (by supporting mining) than someone who consumes a bicycle instead. (Here's what the NWEI has to say about cars, btw: http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/CarImpact.pdf)
The section "What You Can Do" looks at multiple ways to address the problem. For example, instead of telling people to stop eating meat completely, it suggests reducing your consumption and/or buying meat from animals raised locally on small farms.
Neither the problem nor the recommendations seem silly to me.
What I find silly, actually ridiculous, is when veggies, who'll fly around the world on vacations, where synthetic materials, and ride things made of metal, preach to people how bad meat production is to the environment (I'm not arguing its not). What I mean is the whole system is unsustainable and we're all part of the problem. You can preach that by riding a bicycle and not eating meat that you're somehow more responsible than someone who eats veal and drives an H2, but in the end you're a consumer as well and having a negative environmental and social impact on the world. I gave up worrying about that a long time ago and now ride my bike and eat less meat because I want to live longer, but am not under any delusions about the size of footprint I'm leaving behind.
To me, the interesting point is not that agriculture also harms the environment, but that meat production can be so much more harmful than crop production: "To produce one calorie of protein from soy takes two calories of fossil fuel. For beef it takes 54 calories."
The mining issue you point out is probably legitimate (I'm not a hydrogeologist btw). However, it seems logical to me that someone who consumes a car is doing much more damage (by supporting mining) than someone who consumes a bicycle instead. (Here's what the NWEI has to say about cars, btw: http://www.nwei.org/ecotips/CarImpact.pdf)
The section "What You Can Do" looks at multiple ways to address the problem. For example, instead of telling people to stop eating meat completely, it suggests reducing your consumption and/or buying meat from animals raised locally on small farms.
Neither the problem nor the recommendations seem silly to me.
What I find silly, actually ridiculous, is when veggies, who'll fly around the world on vacations, where synthetic materials, and ride things made of metal, preach to people how bad meat production is to the environment (I'm not arguing its not). What I mean is the whole system is unsustainable and we're all part of the problem. You can preach that by riding a bicycle and not eating meat that you're somehow more responsible than someone who eats veal and drives an H2, but in the end you're a consumer as well and having a negative environmental and social impact on the world. I gave up worrying about that a long time ago and now ride my bike and eat less meat because I want to live longer, but am not under any delusions about the size of footprint I'm leaving behind.
cerewa
03-17-06, 01:19 PM
What I mean is the whole system is unsustainable and we're all part of the problem. You can preach that by riding a bicycle and not eating meat that you're somehow more responsible than someone who eats veal and drives an H2, but in the end you're a consumer as well and having a negative environmental and social impact on the world.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a vegetarian bicyclist has a negative "social impact" on the world. I'm pretty sure you don't mean that it's bad for that bicyclist to convince other people to become bicyclists, etc.
GGDub, you say you find it ridiculous that a person vegetarian rides a metal bicycle preaches to a meat-eater about the environmental damage caused by meat-eating, because metal production/mining puts a strain on the environment.
What's significant is not whether there is any strain whatsoever put on the environment, but whether that impact is reasonable.
You haven't given us any reason/evidence to believe that if everyone in the world rode bicycles, that alone would not be enough to ruin the earth's ecosystems or cause global warming. To my knowlege bicycling is absolutely sustainable.
Is the meat-eating Hummer driver doing his/her fair share of the work to keep the planet in usable shape for our great grandchildren? Your answer doesn't address that at all.
Your argument makes no more sense than these arguments:
"I've unjustly stolen a small nut from my bike shop. Since I've already done wrong, I may as well do some more wrong, I think I'll go there in the night, break a window to get in, and run off with their best titanium bike frame."
"I got mad once when I was little and punched my brother hard. Now that I've done that, I may as well borrow his wallet, take all the money out of his bank account in cash, and secretly keep it for myself."
"I ate a vitamin today, and it was good. So I should eat the rest of the bottle of vitamins today, because that will also be good."
"I'm good at bicycle racing and it's fun and all, but I'm too old/too poor/too weak to ever win an olympic gold, so I shouldn't bother racing."
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a vegetarian bicyclist has a negative "social impact" on the world. I'm pretty sure you don't mean that it's bad for that bicyclist to convince other people to become bicyclists, etc.
GGDub, you say you find it ridiculous that a person vegetarian rides a metal bicycle preaches to a meat-eater about the environmental damage caused by meat-eating, because metal production/mining puts a strain on the environment.
What's significant is not whether there is any strain whatsoever put on the environment, but whether that impact is reasonable.
You haven't given us any reason/evidence to believe that if everyone in the world rode bicycles, that alone would not be enough to ruin the earth's ecosystems or cause global warming. To my knowlege bicycling is absolutely sustainable.
Is the meat-eating Hummer driver doing his/her fair share of the work to keep the planet in usable shape for our great grandchildren? Your answer doesn't address that at all.
Your argument makes no more sense than these arguments:
"I've unjustly stolen a small nut from my bike shop. Since I've already done wrong, I may as well do some more wrong, I think I'll go there in the night, break a window to get in, and run off with their best titanium bike frame."
"I got mad once when I was little and punched my brother hard. Now that I've done that, I may as well borrow his wallet, take all the money out of his bank account in cash, and secretly keep it for myself."
"I ate a vitamin today, and it was good. So I should eat the rest of the bottle of vitamins today, because that will also be good."
"I'm good at bicycle racing and it's fun and all, but I'm too old/too poor/too weak to ever win an olympic gold, so I shouldn't bother racing."
UCSDbikeAnarchy
03-17-06, 02:26 PM
now entering my 6th mostly meet free year. I think i get plenty of protein from eatins lots of tofu, beans nuts, milk cheese. I would be a little bit more owrried about my protien intact if i was vegan. people have a tendancy to offer me fish when i say i don't eat meat, especially here in the netherlands. I would never dmeand that someone go out of their way to make me something meat free, so In the case of fish, I'll eat a bit, everything else I'll pick around or jsut not eat.
I'm meat free for enviromental reason just the same as I'm car free for for enviromental reasons. Hopefully, it offsets a bit of the impact I've had runnign around europe for the last year.
Of course everything we does have an enviromental impact, but every little thing we do helps. Of course the bigest single thing you can do to save the enviorment is to not have kids. Now THERE is a touchy subject. see www.vhemt.org
I'm meat free for enviromental reason just the same as I'm car free for for enviromental reasons. Hopefully, it offsets a bit of the impact I've had runnign around europe for the last year.
Of course everything we does have an enviromental impact, but every little thing we do helps. Of course the bigest single thing you can do to save the enviorment is to not have kids. Now THERE is a touchy subject. see www.vhemt.org
lala
03-17-06, 02:33 PM
I agree about the children.
But perhaps this will need to go to the dreaded Politics n Religion forum....
But perhaps this will need to go to the dreaded Politics n Religion forum....
pedex
03-17-06, 02:42 PM
checking my grocery bills from last couple of months, im averaging about 20lbs per month of meat....mostly chicken, fish, and hamburger
may sound like alot, but also consider I ride for a living, my daily calorie needs run around 4500 cals per day lately, not uncommon for me to eat 3/4 to 1lb at once in a big meal after work
*********************************
sidenote, anybody thinking chicken is lower in fat than beef products, think again in the US and UK anyway, the fat content of factory raised chicken is as high or higher than beef products----their high growth diet they give them makes for fat and out of shape chickens(imagine that)
**********************
Damage to the environment, well of course. If we humans lived on this planet in an indefinitely sustainable fashion the world population would likely never get much higher than 2 billion or so.......we have 6.5 billion give or take at the moment.
may sound like alot, but also consider I ride for a living, my daily calorie needs run around 4500 cals per day lately, not uncommon for me to eat 3/4 to 1lb at once in a big meal after work
*********************************
sidenote, anybody thinking chicken is lower in fat than beef products, think again in the US and UK anyway, the fat content of factory raised chicken is as high or higher than beef products----their high growth diet they give them makes for fat and out of shape chickens(imagine that)
**********************
Damage to the environment, well of course. If we humans lived on this planet in an indefinitely sustainable fashion the world population would likely never get much higher than 2 billion or so.......we have 6.5 billion give or take at the moment.
sabertooth
03-17-06, 02:43 PM
What I find silly, actually ridiculous, is when veggies, who'll fly around the world on vacations, where synthetic materials, and ride things made of metal, preach to people how bad meat production is to the environment (I'm not arguing its not).
But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the message about meat. It just means the messenger may be a hypocrit.
What I mean is the whole system is unsustainable and we're all part of the problem.
So what's the solution? Mass suicide? Sterilization? (Sorry. Cheap shot. I couldn't resist.)
You can preach that by riding a bicycle and not eating meat that you're somehow more responsible than someone who eats veal and drives an H2, but in the end you're a consumer as well and having a negative environmental and social impact on the world. I gave up worrying about that a long time ago and now ride my bike and eat less meat because I want to live longer, but am not under any delusions about the size of footprint I'm leaving behind.
The size of footprint we leave behind is what it is. The question is, "Am I being delusional by thinking that the size of my footprint makes a difference?" BTW, do you vote for president? Do you think your vote makes a difference?
Recently, I ran across a checklist of specific steps you can take to live a more sustainable life. The checklist was broken down into sections - 10 things you could do that were considered "First steps", 10 things that "Required effort" and 10 that were "Hard-core". Here's the hard-core list:
1. Walk, bike, carpool, or ride the bus to work.
2. Sell a car.
3. Get a home energy audit and follow through.
4. Make your yard a chemical-free zone.
5. Shift to a vegetarian diet.
6. Eliminate disposable products from you kitchen.
7. Replace much of your lawn with a garden or native plants.
8. Move to a smaller home or rent out extra living space.
9. Severly limit airplane travel.
10. Regularly volunteer time/resources to protect the earth.
But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the message about meat. It just means the messenger may be a hypocrit.
What I mean is the whole system is unsustainable and we're all part of the problem.
So what's the solution? Mass suicide? Sterilization? (Sorry. Cheap shot. I couldn't resist.)
You can preach that by riding a bicycle and not eating meat that you're somehow more responsible than someone who eats veal and drives an H2, but in the end you're a consumer as well and having a negative environmental and social impact on the world. I gave up worrying about that a long time ago and now ride my bike and eat less meat because I want to live longer, but am not under any delusions about the size of footprint I'm leaving behind.
The size of footprint we leave behind is what it is. The question is, "Am I being delusional by thinking that the size of my footprint makes a difference?" BTW, do you vote for president? Do you think your vote makes a difference?
Recently, I ran across a checklist of specific steps you can take to live a more sustainable life. The checklist was broken down into sections - 10 things you could do that were considered "First steps", 10 things that "Required effort" and 10 that were "Hard-core". Here's the hard-core list:
1. Walk, bike, carpool, or ride the bus to work.
2. Sell a car.
3. Get a home energy audit and follow through.
4. Make your yard a chemical-free zone.
5. Shift to a vegetarian diet.
6. Eliminate disposable products from you kitchen.
7. Replace much of your lawn with a garden or native plants.
8. Move to a smaller home or rent out extra living space.
9. Severly limit airplane travel.
10. Regularly volunteer time/resources to protect the earth.
JT52
03-17-06, 02:52 PM
Vegetarian for almost two years. Nearly dairy free as well.
I-Like-To-Bike
03-17-06, 04:16 PM
People do get touchy about this topic! Why?
Because the rants from pompous or self righteous proselytizers (no matter what the dogma) are as much fun as a mime in the park.
Because the rants from pompous or self righteous proselytizers (no matter what the dogma) are as much fun as a mime in the park.
AverageCommuter
03-17-06, 10:10 PM
What I mean is the whole system is unsustainable and we're all part of the problem.
Absolutely true. It is impossible to live without impacting the environment. No species can. But just like all species, when you exhaust the ability of your environment to provide for you, you will experience a massive die-off.
It happens around here with deer. They no longer have any natural predators, so their population increases until they outstrip their food supply. To prevent the suffering and starvation, which is definitely not pretty, there are sanctioned deer hunts.
We humans, however, have managed through technology to push our environment, which unfortunately encompasses the entire planet, much farther than should ever have been possible. When the rebound comes, and it will eventually, it will be cataclysmic. So we can either start working now to attempt to mitigate the damage or we can bury our heads in the sand and just hope that the incredible suffering that will preceed our extinction will not start until after we die of old age.
So is one person giving up a car for a bike, or giving up meat, going to have a major impact? No. However one person making these and/or other changes, and proving to others who might be contemplating it, that you can still be just as happy and healthy, if not moreso, might.
1. Walk, bike, carpool, or ride the bus to work.
2. Sell a car.
3. Get a home energy audit and follow through.
4. Make your yard a chemical-free zone.
5. Shift to a vegetarian diet.
6. Eliminate disposable products from you kitchen.
7. Replace much of your lawn with a garden or native plants.
8. Move to a smaller home or rent out extra living space.
9. Severly limit airplane travel.
10. Regularly volunteer time/resources to protect the earth.
1. Done
2. Done
3. Looking into it
4. Done
5. Nearly so, maybe once every 2 weeks
6. Done
7. In the process
8. Already smaller than average, if we move, we'll go even smaller w/passive and active solar.
9. Only once in 39 years
10 darn, got me on that one
Absolutely true. It is impossible to live without impacting the environment. No species can. But just like all species, when you exhaust the ability of your environment to provide for you, you will experience a massive die-off.
It happens around here with deer. They no longer have any natural predators, so their population increases until they outstrip their food supply. To prevent the suffering and starvation, which is definitely not pretty, there are sanctioned deer hunts.
We humans, however, have managed through technology to push our environment, which unfortunately encompasses the entire planet, much farther than should ever have been possible. When the rebound comes, and it will eventually, it will be cataclysmic. So we can either start working now to attempt to mitigate the damage or we can bury our heads in the sand and just hope that the incredible suffering that will preceed our extinction will not start until after we die of old age.
So is one person giving up a car for a bike, or giving up meat, going to have a major impact? No. However one person making these and/or other changes, and proving to others who might be contemplating it, that you can still be just as happy and healthy, if not moreso, might.
1. Walk, bike, carpool, or ride the bus to work.
2. Sell a car.
3. Get a home energy audit and follow through.
4. Make your yard a chemical-free zone.
5. Shift to a vegetarian diet.
6. Eliminate disposable products from you kitchen.
7. Replace much of your lawn with a garden or native plants.
8. Move to a smaller home or rent out extra living space.
9. Severly limit airplane travel.
10. Regularly volunteer time/resources to protect the earth.
1. Done
2. Done
3. Looking into it
4. Done
5. Nearly so, maybe once every 2 weeks
6. Done
7. In the process
8. Already smaller than average, if we move, we'll go even smaller w/passive and active solar.
9. Only once in 39 years
10 darn, got me on that one
attercoppe
03-17-06, 11:44 PM
I typically only eat meat for one meal a day, that's at the small-town restaurant where I cook (lunch is free when I work). We get our beef from a local concern who raises and processes the cattle themselves (it's one of the few "good" things the Bush-voting, Wal-Mart-shopping, SUV-driving owner does). Our chicken is from Tyson, which may be healthier chicken than some, but of course is a major producer, and likely has all manner of earth-unfriendly practices.
The whole unsustainable meat industry thing is something that I feel pretty far removed from, as in I don't really feel like I can make an appreciable difference in it - and I think a lot of other people feel the same way. It's like anything else on that scale (someone mentioned presidential elections) - one person doesn't make a big difference, but many many single people eventually cause change. I don't know if the factory farming conditions and effects have been well covered up, or if it's just not a subject that interests enough people, but there doesn't generally seem to be a lot of sentiment against MegaCorp meat.
The whole unsustainable meat industry thing is something that I feel pretty far removed from, as in I don't really feel like I can make an appreciable difference in it - and I think a lot of other people feel the same way. It's like anything else on that scale (someone mentioned presidential elections) - one person doesn't make a big difference, but many many single people eventually cause change. I don't know if the factory farming conditions and effects have been well covered up, or if it's just not a subject that interests enough people, but there doesn't generally seem to be a lot of sentiment against MegaCorp meat.
smithers
03-18-06, 06:59 AM
i'm meat-free
eric von zipper
03-18-06, 08:41 AM
10 years and a couple of months since having eaten meat.
CagerTools
03-20-06, 01:39 PM
I mainly eat tofu, beans, and peanut butter for my protein. Soy milk also. But I don't spend alot of money on meat ever, so I don't buy it.
sfcrossrider
03-20-06, 02:13 PM
I eat meat. I ride my bike everywhere because I choose to. I could care less what others thought.
vuduvgn
03-20-06, 03:04 PM
Vegan 10 years now, race Sport Mtn Bike, I won about 90% of my races last year.
Working on selling my vehicle, about one month off!
Protein Myth:
http://organicathlete.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104&Itemid=63
Other plant based lifestyle facts:
http://organicathlete.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=5&id=13&Itemid=63
Ecological footprint calculator:
http://www.myfootprint.org/
http://www.bestfootforward.com/footprintlife.htm
Good topic, btw. I'm sure we are all doing all we can to increase the greater good. It's not a finite thing but something to practice every day.
Working on selling my vehicle, about one month off!
Protein Myth:
http://organicathlete.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104&Itemid=63
Other plant based lifestyle facts:
http://organicathlete.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=5&id=13&Itemid=63
Ecological footprint calculator:
http://www.myfootprint.org/
http://www.bestfootforward.com/footprintlife.htm
Good topic, btw. I'm sure we are all doing all we can to increase the greater good. It's not a finite thing but something to practice every day.
recursive
03-20-06, 06:02 PM
I'm car free for fun and profit. I eat meat for sheer tastiness.
attercoppe
03-20-06, 08:30 PM
I'm car free for fun and profit. I eat meat for sheer tastiness.
Hey, I like that.
Can I tell a joke on PETA? A friend of mine (though I'm sure he didn't come up with it) used to say PETA stands for "People Eating Tasty Animals".
Hey, I like that.
Can I tell a joke on PETA? A friend of mine (though I'm sure he didn't come up with it) used to say PETA stands for "People Eating Tasty Animals".
oilfreeandhappy
03-20-06, 10:51 PM
I've been a veg-head for about 20 years.
bonutz
03-21-06, 12:40 AM
To me, the interesting point is not that agriculture also harms the environment, but that meat production can be so much more harmful than crop production: "To produce one calorie of protein from soy takes two calories of fossil fuel. For beef it takes 54 calories."
HOnest question: If it takes so much more energy to produce beef, why are meat substitutes so damned expensive? If morningstar products and the like were actually reasonable priced, I'd probably eat them instead of meat quite often.
HOnest question: If it takes so much more energy to produce beef, why are meat substitutes so damned expensive? If morningstar products and the like were actually reasonable priced, I'd probably eat them instead of meat quite often.
sestivers
03-21-06, 02:26 AM
Not sure what you mean. A bag of veggie crumbles costs like $2.50 for a 12-oz bag. Isn't hamburger $2+ per lb (16 oz)? And 25% or more of that just cooks away unused (fat). Personally, I don't think that's a significant difference in price at all - maybe you need to shop at a different store?. Remember that beef is a huge industry with a lot of buyers whereas the demand for vegetarian options is a tiny fraction of the US population. If beef costed a lot, people would freak out and the government would help out to keep the price down in the same way it provides the world's cheapest gasoline.
10 carat gold costs less than 18 carat gold because it's full of a bunch of CRAP that isn't gold.
10 carat gold costs less than 18 carat gold because it's full of a bunch of CRAP that isn't gold.
UCSDbikeAnarchy
03-21-06, 04:09 AM
morningstar farms veg corndogs: 4 for 2.50.
FosterFarms meat corndogs" 24 for 4.50.
but 16 oz boneless skinless chicken breast: 2.29
16 oz frim tofu: 1.29
Fake meat is expensive, but you can eat a very healty veg diet without it. I do just fine on rice, beans, tofu, nuts, and lors of fresh fruit and vegis. The only meat replacement i buy is garden burgers, and you can get a 17 pack (yes 17, don't ask me why) at costco for like $12.
you can be car free with an old beater or a $1000+ full carbon something. the net effect is the same, its just a personal preference.
FosterFarms meat corndogs" 24 for 4.50.
but 16 oz boneless skinless chicken breast: 2.29
16 oz frim tofu: 1.29
Fake meat is expensive, but you can eat a very healty veg diet without it. I do just fine on rice, beans, tofu, nuts, and lors of fresh fruit and vegis. The only meat replacement i buy is garden burgers, and you can get a 17 pack (yes 17, don't ask me why) at costco for like $12.
you can be car free with an old beater or a $1000+ full carbon something. the net effect is the same, its just a personal preference.
EastTennesseeBP
03-21-06, 09:32 AM
I dont eat red meat, pork or poultry. I do however eat some fish, some dairy, and occasionly eggs. I have gone this route more for health reasons then making a statement of some kind. I have never had a problem with getting enough nutrients or protein into my diet. To each their own though, I have nothing against people who eat meat. What works for one doesnt work for the next guy.
vuduvgn
03-21-06, 10:12 AM
If you are doing it strictly for health reasons with a side of convenience then vegan isn't the best.
Fish is very good for you, careful though for women who may get pregnant. Mercury and all that stuff that you find in fish is bad and stays in the body, gets passed to infants, etc.
Butter is better for you than non-diary margarine.
Yogurt is good for ya, especially because of the bacteria in it.
All those processed fake meats arn't the best for you. They may be better than meats in some ways and worse in other ways. The best plan (in terms of health, enviro, etc) is to eat less processed plant based foods, beans, greens, etc. Tofu is good, tofu dogs not good, etc.
I'm curious, what kind of results did people get from the footprint calculator?
Fish is very good for you, careful though for women who may get pregnant. Mercury and all that stuff that you find in fish is bad and stays in the body, gets passed to infants, etc.
Butter is better for you than non-diary margarine.
Yogurt is good for ya, especially because of the bacteria in it.
All those processed fake meats arn't the best for you. They may be better than meats in some ways and worse in other ways. The best plan (in terms of health, enviro, etc) is to eat less processed plant based foods, beans, greens, etc. Tofu is good, tofu dogs not good, etc.
I'm curious, what kind of results did people get from the footprint calculator?
cerewa
03-21-06, 10:43 AM
Butter is better for you than non-diary margarine.
Trans fats (major component in most margarines) are worse for you than saturated fats (major component in butter).
However, in my understanding, margarine that is mainly unsaturated fat with almost no trans fat (such as "Promise" brand margarine) is actually better for you than butter or regular margarine.
results from the footprint calculator?
About 2.5 to 3 planets needed if everyone were like me, they say. I'd like to think it's not true, but maybe it is.
Trans fats (major component in most margarines) are worse for you than saturated fats (major component in butter).
However, in my understanding, margarine that is mainly unsaturated fat with almost no trans fat (such as "Promise" brand margarine) is actually better for you than butter or regular margarine.
results from the footprint calculator?
About 2.5 to 3 planets needed if everyone were like me, they say. I'd like to think it's not true, but maybe it is.
sngltrackdufus
03-21-06, 11:30 AM
I LOVE Chicken & ribs!!
I had a whole chicken last night that i marinated , roasted then put in the smoker for 4 hours....MMMMMMM,MMMMMMM tastey!!!
I had a whole chicken last night that i marinated , roasted then put in the smoker for 4 hours....MMMMMMM,MMMMMMM tastey!!!
GGDub
03-21-06, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a vegetarian bicyclist has a negative "social impact" on the world. I'm pretty sure you don't mean that it's bad for that bicyclist to convince other people to become bicyclists, etc.
GGDub, you say you find it ridiculous that a person vegetarian rides a metal bicycle preaches to a meat-eater about the environmental damage caused by meat-eating, because metal production/mining puts a strain on the environment.
What's significant is not whether there is any strain whatsoever put on the environment, but whether that impact is reasonable.
You haven't given us any reason/evidence to believe that if everyone in the world rode bicycles, that alone would not be enough to ruin the earth's ecosystems or cause global warming. To my knowlege bicycling is absolutely sustainable.
Is the meat-eating Hummer driver doing his/her fair share of the work to keep the planet in usable shape for our great grandchildren? Your answer doesn't address that at all.
K, guess I went a little overboard. Yes, eating less meat will reduce impact and its a good idea. I do resent however, being told by people riding metal, not to eat meat at all (which, in review no one is saying). However, please go look at an open pit mine in person, then go look at a feedlot in person. You'll understand immediately the enormous difference in impact mining has over meat production. The solution? I don't have one, other than going back to hunting/gathering with no organized agriculture, but that's really not a solution.
Sabretooth, I don't vote for a president . Get an encyclopedia to find out why.
GGDub, you say you find it ridiculous that a person vegetarian rides a metal bicycle preaches to a meat-eater about the environmental damage caused by meat-eating, because metal production/mining puts a strain on the environment.
What's significant is not whether there is any strain whatsoever put on the environment, but whether that impact is reasonable.
You haven't given us any reason/evidence to believe that if everyone in the world rode bicycles, that alone would not be enough to ruin the earth's ecosystems or cause global warming. To my knowlege bicycling is absolutely sustainable.
Is the meat-eating Hummer driver doing his/her fair share of the work to keep the planet in usable shape for our great grandchildren? Your answer doesn't address that at all.
K, guess I went a little overboard. Yes, eating less meat will reduce impact and its a good idea. I do resent however, being told by people riding metal, not to eat meat at all (which, in review no one is saying). However, please go look at an open pit mine in person, then go look at a feedlot in person. You'll understand immediately the enormous difference in impact mining has over meat production. The solution? I don't have one, other than going back to hunting/gathering with no organized agriculture, but that's really not a solution.
Sabretooth, I don't vote for a president . Get an encyclopedia to find out why.
I-Like-To-Bike
03-22-06, 04:30 AM
I LOVE Chicken & ribs!!
I had a whole chicken last night that i marinated , roasted then put in the smoker for 4 hours....MMMMMMM,MMMMMMM tastey!!!
I bet it was butI don't have the patience to wait 4 hours. Bike to McDonalds, spend $5 off the $1menu, takeout; bike home, grab a couple beers and watch March Madness or College football in the fall, wife leaves or watches with me. Eating doesn't get any better; hmmmm, love those $1 double cheeseburgers!
I had a whole chicken last night that i marinated , roasted then put in the smoker for 4 hours....MMMMMMM,MMMMMMM tastey!!!
I bet it was butI don't have the patience to wait 4 hours. Bike to McDonalds, spend $5 off the $1menu, takeout; bike home, grab a couple beers and watch March Madness or College football in the fall, wife leaves or watches with me. Eating doesn't get any better; hmmmm, love those $1 double cheeseburgers!
obsidian
03-22-06, 05:32 AM
Meat + Fire=Mmmmmmeat!
Guest
03-22-06, 07:20 AM
I don't choose to eat or not eat meat for all that feel good crap stuff. I just eat less of it because I don't feel that meat should be the primary dish at dinner! I'm just as satisfied with a veggie spaghetti plate anyway.
I like to think my biking contributes to minimizing the environmental damage done to the earth, but I also bike because it's healthy and because I hate public transportation and driving.
Koffee
I like to think my biking contributes to minimizing the environmental damage done to the earth, but I also bike because it's healthy and because I hate public transportation and driving.
Koffee
vuduvgn
03-22-06, 10:00 AM
Last night at the Pharmacy while getting my EpiPen prescription (I hate bees!) the pharmacist told me not to leave the EpiPen in the glove box. I whimpered to him I don't have a car.
It's actually not true, I still have my vehicle but am selling it in about a month.
I think I sounded sad when I said I didn't have a car, but upon reflection, I think I am just in the mourning process of leaving the auto lifestyle.
I went outside in the 40 degree weather and had a great ride home.
It's actually not true, I still have my vehicle but am selling it in about a month.
I think I sounded sad when I said I didn't have a car, but upon reflection, I think I am just in the mourning process of leaving the auto lifestyle.
I went outside in the 40 degree weather and had a great ride home.
C Law
03-22-06, 10:36 AM
I bet it was butI don't have the patience to wait 4 hours. Bike to McDonalds, .............. hmmmm, love those $1 double cheeseburgers!
Is that actually considered meat though? :p
Once a year, we slaughter a cow from a local farmer here by me. My wifes family has been doing it for years and we started doing it ourself several years back. It's not 'Certified organic' or anything, but it is nice to meet the man who raised your cow and slaughtered it, and visiting the farm you get a good idea of how things are done. It is a very small farm. The meet is frozen that day and used throughout the year by me and wife. The only downside is that you get many 'unchoice' cuts and a lot of ground beef. But, through a couple of BBQ's throughout the summer and its easy to use that up.
I am a huge fish eater though. MMM. MMM. Infact, sushi for lunch it is!!
Is that actually considered meat though? :p
Once a year, we slaughter a cow from a local farmer here by me. My wifes family has been doing it for years and we started doing it ourself several years back. It's not 'Certified organic' or anything, but it is nice to meet the man who raised your cow and slaughtered it, and visiting the farm you get a good idea of how things are done. It is a very small farm. The meet is frozen that day and used throughout the year by me and wife. The only downside is that you get many 'unchoice' cuts and a lot of ground beef. But, through a couple of BBQ's throughout the summer and its easy to use that up.
I am a huge fish eater though. MMM. MMM. Infact, sushi for lunch it is!!
powers2b
03-22-06, 10:40 AM
Are you car free because you are concerned about the environment? Have you thought about how much meat you eat?
No, I ride my bike to ride my bike.
Yes, as much as I can get my blood stained hands on.
Enjoy
No, I ride my bike to ride my bike.
Yes, as much as I can get my blood stained hands on.
Enjoy
sngltrackdufus
03-22-06, 05:26 PM
I bet it was butI don't have the patience to wait 4 hours. Bike to McDonalds, spend $5 off the $1menu, takeout; bike home, grab a couple beers and watch March Madness or College football in the fall, wife leaves or watches with me. Eating doesn't get any better; hmmmm, love those $1 double cheeseburgers!
actually , it took about 18 hours total time 12 hours marinade ,2 hours cook & 4 hours smoke time :D .
I like those dollar deals too. :) MEEAAAT!!! :eek:
actually , it took about 18 hours total time 12 hours marinade ,2 hours cook & 4 hours smoke time :D .
I like those dollar deals too. :) MEEAAAT!!! :eek:
sngltrackdufus
03-22-06, 05:29 PM
Is that actually considered meat though? :p
Once a year, we slaughter a cow from a local farmer here by me. My wifes family has been doing it for years and we started doing it ourself several years back. It's not 'Certified organic' or anything, but it is nice to meet the man who raised your cow and slaughtered it, and visiting the farm you get a good idea of how things are done. It is a very small farm. The meet is frozen that day and used throughout the year by me and wife. The only downside is that you get many 'unchoice' cuts and a lot of ground beef. But, through a couple of BBQ's throughout the summer and its easy to use that up.
I am a huge fish eater though. MMM. MMM. Infact, sushi for lunch it is!!
How did you slaughter the cow ? the ole sledge hammer to the skull? or the pointy steel rod through the base of the skull?
Once a year, we slaughter a cow from a local farmer here by me. My wifes family has been doing it for years and we started doing it ourself several years back. It's not 'Certified organic' or anything, but it is nice to meet the man who raised your cow and slaughtered it, and visiting the farm you get a good idea of how things are done. It is a very small farm. The meet is frozen that day and used throughout the year by me and wife. The only downside is that you get many 'unchoice' cuts and a lot of ground beef. But, through a couple of BBQ's throughout the summer and its easy to use that up.
I am a huge fish eater though. MMM. MMM. Infact, sushi for lunch it is!!
How did you slaughter the cow ? the ole sledge hammer to the skull? or the pointy steel rod through the base of the skull?
oilfreeandhappy
03-23-06, 12:02 AM
If you are doing it strictly for health reasons with a side of convenience then vegan isn't the best.
Fish is very good for you, careful though for women who may get pregnant. Mercury and all that stuff that you find in fish is bad and stays in the body, gets passed to infants, etc.
Butter is better for you than non-diary margarine.
Yogurt is good for ya, especially because of the bacteria in it.
All those processed fake meats arn't the best for you. They may be better than meats in some ways and worse in other ways. The best plan (in terms of health, enviro, etc) is to eat less processed plant based foods, beans, greens, etc. Tofu is good, tofu dogs not good, etc.
I'm curious, what kind of results did people get from the footprint calculator?
I don't have any problem with some of the fake meats. What's the basis for the "not good for you" claim. Tofu is a processed food also, and all the fiber is removed from the soybean. A lot of the processed Veggie burgers retain some of the fiber. I really like Gardenburgers Riblets. I like Boca Burgers, Grillers, and MSF Sausage patties. I love greens, salads, potatoes, rice, brocolli, and all other veggies.
Fish is very good for you, careful though for women who may get pregnant. Mercury and all that stuff that you find in fish is bad and stays in the body, gets passed to infants, etc.
Butter is better for you than non-diary margarine.
Yogurt is good for ya, especially because of the bacteria in it.
All those processed fake meats arn't the best for you. They may be better than meats in some ways and worse in other ways. The best plan (in terms of health, enviro, etc) is to eat less processed plant based foods, beans, greens, etc. Tofu is good, tofu dogs not good, etc.
I'm curious, what kind of results did people get from the footprint calculator?
I don't have any problem with some of the fake meats. What's the basis for the "not good for you" claim. Tofu is a processed food also, and all the fiber is removed from the soybean. A lot of the processed Veggie burgers retain some of the fiber. I really like Gardenburgers Riblets. I like Boca Burgers, Grillers, and MSF Sausage patties. I love greens, salads, potatoes, rice, brocolli, and all other veggies.
I-Like-To-Bike
03-23-06, 04:02 AM
I don't have any problem with some of the fake meats.
I don't have any problem with real meats. Good for both of us. I don't know what either preference has to do with being car-free or with bicycling.
I don't have any problem with real meats. Good for both of us. I don't know what either preference has to do with being car-free or with bicycling.
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