General Cycling Discussion - LBS rep = car salesman?

So, I've been eyeballing the Trek 520, online and in magazines. It looks like the perfect bike for my commute. I decided to stop by my local Trek dealer and have a look at one in person.

Sales rep #1: "Can I help you?"
Me: "Yes, I'd like to take a look at a Trek 520."
Sales rep #1: <blank stare with a dash of bewilderment> "Our Treks all start at 1000."
Me: "Okay, thanks, I'll just look around a bit."

(Now, I overhear him talking to another rep, behind the counter, who then thumbs through through the Trek catalog before approaching me.)

Sales rep #2: "So, why are you looking for a touring bike?"
Me: "Why? Because, I like the geometry, setup and..."
Sales rep #2: "Well, what are you going to use it for?"
Me: "To commute to work."
Sales rep #2: "But, you're not planning on riding across the state or anything, are you?"
Me: "No, but I do ride over 35 miles, everyday."
Sales rep #2: "Let me show you this 1000. I think it has everything you want."

He has me get on the bike and starts fitting it for me. I mention that it seems a bit smaller than what I am used to. He said that I he would be surprised if I rode a bike any bigger than this one. I again said that I thought this might have me a little scrunched, in the long run.
So, he starts throwing around shop talk, with a little pause to then "explain" what each term means.
This just irked me, so I began asking about the features on the 520 that I knew for a fact were not on the 1000.

He had an excuse for each like how I really didn't need to have that wide a gear range and the suspension seat on the 1000 would make up for the rougher ride on aluminum.

I was beginning to get a bit fed up and started to leave when he said, "Let me show you this Pilot."
We had almost the same conversation over this bike as we did over the 1000 except that the carbon fiber was purported as the material that would make it ride just as smooth as cromoly.

Seeing that I wasn't biting, he says, "You see, the 1000 is a 'comfort road bike' and the Pilot is a 'relaxed fit road bike' and this is really the trend in bikes. You're going to be hard pressed to find any more touring bikes on the market and cromoly is kind of going the way of the dinosaur."

I left feeling like I had been crammed full of crap, like the christmas goose. It made me feel sorry for the noob who walks into their LBS and gets 'the pitch' so that the salesman can sell whatever bike he has sitting on the showroom floor.

I would've left after the first, oh, five sentences or so... :)

Some shops are like that, sadly.

Oddly enough the shop I didn't like here has started to become one of my favorites...turns out what happened was the owner did make a big mistake and doubted my abilities....turns out he saw me at one of the local club rides (I'm not fast, but I'm no slouch either), and he realized I do know what I'm talking about...

...since then he's been giving me pretty good advice, and it looks like he's starting to get used to the fast utility cyclist crowd a bit more.

Maybe that's his thing....he probably doesn't know enough about that bike.

At least this guy didn't start off by asking you how much monthly payment you can afford to make.....

I would've left after the first, oh, five sentences or so... :)

You're patient, that's 3 more than I would have put up with.

I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops, sometimes when the mood takes me I play the noob and have some fun ;) but when it comes time to spend some major $$$ I do all my research long before stepping foot into the LBS then I go in there knowing exactly what I want and exactly how much I'm prepared to pay, then it's just a mtter of negotiating the sweetest deal in terms of getting accesories thrown in to close it.

Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge', I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue beyond what they read in their brochures and 'service' means 'sell you something for as much $$$ as possible' and most of them couldn't lie straight in bed.

Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge', I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue beyond what they read in their brochures and 'service' means 'sell you something for as much $$$ as possible' and most of them couldn't lie straight in bed.

That wins the ignorant ****** statement of the day. Congratulations.
I will see if we can just remove the mechaincs and general cycling section since no one needs it.

That wins the ignorant ****** statement of the day. Congratulations.
I will see if we can just remove the mechaincs and general cycling section since no one needs it.

WTF are you talking about? what does an ONLINE FORUM have to do with my exeriences at my LBS's?

I ran into a similar experience looking for an FX bike. The salesman was trying to sell me last years 1000c, so I played along until he told me how outdated Giant's frame designs are. That was enough to make me walk out because I had my bike shoes on. Maybe if I was wearing boots he could of piled it on some more.

I went back to the LBS where the owner was not willing to assemble the right size bike for me to test ride. This was in Febuary and on a week day. Lucky for him, a decent mechanic let me do the test rides another day.

WTF are you talking about? what does an ONLINE FORUM have to do with my exeriences at my LBS's?


"Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge'" << It would be that part. You imply that all shops and their employees are crooked, not just the one you frequented.

OP: Sorry about your experience at the Trek dealer, the 520 is a great bike from an s***y company. I would humbly suggest looking at something like a Surly “Long Haul Trucker” at a LBS that is actually independent. It sounds like you were shopping at a “concept” store; indys will treat you better if they want to stay in business.

CYCLAHOLIC: I try to help guys like you all the time with honesty and empathy…but you know it all- I couldn’t possibly have the right answer for you, OH NO! But you guys still come into bike shops and ignore good advice, and then blame us for your bad experience and ***** about it on the internet. Do you come into bike shops to get yourself pissed off? Is that your little game…Huh?

"Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge'" << It would be that part. You imply that all shops and their employees are crooked, not just the one you frequented.

I imlied nothing of the sort, you read into it something that was not even in the ballpark. what I said (not implied but actually said) was that what I read in these forums regarding 'service' and 'knowledge' is rubbish in my experience, if it wasn't I wouldn't be saying it now would I. By far the best product knowledge and quality of service I have ever experienced within the cycling industry has been dealing with mail order companies that sell online.

CYCLAHOLIC: I try to help guys like you all the time with honesty and empathy…but you know it all- I couldn’t possibly have the right answer for you, OH NO! But you guys still come into bike shops and ignore good advice, and then blame us for your bad experience and ***** about it on the internet. Do you come into bike shops to get yourself pissed off? Is that your little game…Huh?

No Josh, the guys you try to help are nothing like me otherwise I'd be on here saying "my LBS is cool, he's honest and knows what he's on about" but that's not the situation, If we had just one LBS run the way you would run it I'd be one loyal customer. As an example I was looking at a new road bike recently and one LBS proprietor tried to convince me that brand X bikes, which they don't stock, were imported into the country by a religious cult so that they could circumvent imort tax (undercut other manufacturers with same specs) and you'd never ever get a warranty claim honored for the same reason, ofcourse he wasn't exactly sure which religious cult that was :rolleyes: he also tried very hard to convince me of several things that were in breach of the laws of physics.

I just noticed cyclaholic is from Australia. He gets a partial pardon for his bigotry. He has never been in a US bike shop, I'll wager, and lives in a country with only a half dozen bikes shops and a HUGE import tax. Plus he has nothing to deal with but other Australians, explains the crookedry. Like father, like son. :)

I just noticed cyclaholic is from Australia. He gets a partial pardon for his bigotry. He has never been in a US bike shop, I'll wager, and lives in a country with only a half dozen bikes shops and a HUGE import tax. Plus he has nothing to deal with but other Australians, explains the crookedry. Like father, like son. :)

Ok, so we're done discussing our LBS experiences and have now moved onto personal attacks and insults.....

I'm done, the moderators can take it from here.

FYI...blue star beside name=moderator

It is not personal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convictism_in_Australia Just history

By the way bigotry is assigning traits to an entire group based on your experience with just a few. For instance were I to base my opinions of customers on guys like you, I would seek a career elsewhere. However I choose to believe that my customers are not "know it alls" that think I am out to screw them, but, in fact, people that trust me to help them as I trust them not to run out of the store with a handful of Oakleys.
So it was not personal just an observation of exhibited behaviour.

FYI...blue star beside name=moderator


Yep. Makes one phrase themselves with forethought. It does not, however, make them willing to take **** from someone that insults them and their freinds.

Whoops! Didn't mean to stir up that hornet's nest, guys. I'll try to stear this puppy back out of the ditch.

Anyway, I've been into this shop on many occasions and have had great experiences dealing with the wrenches, in the back. They are courteous, know their stuff and even toss in the little freebie items when I purchase things like chains and tires. This was the first time I've ever had anything to do with the salesman, in there.

A little update:
This evening, I went to another Trek dealer, here in town. It's considerably farther away than the one from my original post, (10 miles vs less than a mile), and in a much more "ritzy" part of town.
I asked about the bike and, just like the last guy, he hadn't heard of it before. However, he said, "I'm not familiar with that one. Gimme just a sec to look it up." I have no problem with a rep not knowing every bike that is sold by a manufacturer. In fact, it kind of put me at ease that he let me know that.

He tapped around on the keyboard back there and said, "Here it is. Hey, that's a good looking bike. We don't have one in stock, but let me check the availability on it." More tapping on the keys...

I did interject at this point that I wasn't actually looking to make a purchase today.
He said, "That's fine. It only takes a couple of days to get one into the shop. So, when you are ready, come on in, we'll get you all measured and order the size you need."

Ding! Ding! Ding! I think I've found a new LBS. I don't mind driving further for that kind of service.

So it was not personal just an observation of exhibited behaviour.


Plus he has nothing to deal with but other Australians, explains the crookedry. Like father, like son.

It's not personal.... yeah OK.

The "know it alls" are probably only 1% of the customer base, but damn when they come in it gets my fur up. (can you tell I delt with finikey recumbent man today?)
EDIT: OP, I'm glad you found a shop that treated you properly. That is how shopping for a bike is suposed to be. :)

Congrats on finding a LBS that will give you the service deserved. :)

It's not personal.... yeah OK.


You must not have read the link or looked at my sig line.
As a White Southern (quasi)Christian male I get far more crap for the possible past inequities of my ancestors than you get for, possibly, having british convicts as your ancestors. As far as that goes, my ancestors were also nerdowells kicked out of Scotland by the British crown, and sent to America. Some of them even got to spend time in the Tower and some may have been executed.

I am not familiar with every bike we offer and have no problem looking it up.
Same with repair. I don't know the procedure for every fork overhaul and will tell a customer up front that I intend to read theu the pdfs before I touch the thing just incase there is an unusual aspect to the repair.

i just looked that bike up, it is pretty buried in the Trek site. It looks like the only steel bike they offer. I have one of their lugged bikes, 531 reynolds from the eighties, nice ride.
JoshFrank brought up the longhaultrucker. That and the crosscheck are made by Surly and any bike shop(most shops do deal with them) that deals with Quality can get them. They are both very much like the 520, steel bikes aimed for the distance rider that wants a comfortable ride and the ability to run loaded.

You must not have read the link or looked at my sig line.
As a White Southern (quasi)Christian male I get far more crap for the possible past inequities of my ancestors than you get for, possibly, having british convicts as your ancestors. As far as that goes, my ancestors were also nerdowells kicked out of Scotland by the British crown, and sent to America. Some of them even got to spend time in the Tower and some may have been executed.

I couldn't care less about your ancestry, it is immaterial to the fact that you answered a post about service and knowledge of an LBS with a disgusting insult of my ancestry and my father, then claim its not personal...... and you're supposed to be a moderator! Well done champ, go ahead and nominate yourself for modrator of the month.

(edit)mmach5, I sincerely apologise for my part in letting this thread get so farr off topic. I'm happy that it worked out for you, a new bike is always such a buzz :D

To the Op:
I kind of went through the same thing when I was a n00b to road cycling. I knew fro what I'd read online I wanted a touring bike, since that would best fit my riding wants/needs. So when I enter the LBS I get a whole line of spiel from the salesperson, who wants to sell me an OCR.
Me: Will it fit larger tires, like 700X32?
SalesRep: No, but everyone who tours uses 25s (He said this very thing, no hyperbole.)
Me: Will it fit fenders?
SalesRep: Yes. (No, it didn't, unless I'd switched to 700X20 tires, maybe.)
Me: Can I put a rack on it?
SalesRep: Yes. (No. I was too much of a newbie to see it didn't have eyelets, but assumed the guy knew what he was talking about.)
Well, I do take responsibility for my ignorance, but I ended up spending $700 for the OCR, and for what it was it was an OK bike, but it definitely did not fit my needs as a commuter/tourer, so I felt as if I'd been cheated out of $700 that I could've spent on what I was after in the first place. ($700 is not an insubstantial amount of money to me.)

The most maddening part is, the guy could've ordered a bloody touring bike for me and made more money, as they are quite a bit more expensive, instead of trying to sell me what he had "on hand." Note to Rev. Chuck, I am not attacking all LBSs and their sales staff, and I still go to this LBS, I just don't deal with this guy. Either the 520 or the OCR Touring would've made me very happy and made them more money, I am still curious to this day why I was given the runaround like this.

You're patient, that's 3 more than I would have put up with.

I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops, sometimes when the mood takes me I play the noob and have some fun ;) but when it comes time to spend some major $$$ I do all my research long before stepping foot into the LBS then I go in there knowing exactly what I want and exactly how much I'm prepared to pay, then it's just a mtter of negotiating the sweetest deal in terms of getting accesories thrown in to close it.

Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge', I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue beyond what they read in their brochures and 'service' means 'sell you something for as much $$$ as possible' and most of them couldn't lie straight in bed.

And the above is different how?
"I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops"
"I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue"
"'service' means 'sell you something for as much $$$ as possible"
" most of them couldn't lie straight in bed"

The above, directly quoted from you, started my response to you. Your post did nothing to benefit the Op either. I refuse to just let some dude make vague insults about what I and my associates do for a living because I am a mod.

Edit; This:"Plus he has nothing to deal with but other Australians, explains the crookedry. Like father, like son." is not a reference to you but to the guys in the shop as you quote, " I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops, I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue, most of them couldn't lie straight in bed"

krispistoferson-"I am still curious to this day why I was given the runaround like this."

I believe that it is because, contrary to the few people that believe bike shops rake in hot millions every week, we actually run a very low margin and have to hire guys that will work for cheap. Sometimes we get a good crew, sometimes we get the dumass. sometimes you get a knowitall(They are not just customers) that refuses to ask any one else a question or look it up, and they spout out of their butt. Unless you catch them at it this is hard to correct and they often do poorly when corrected. Then you want to get the boss to fire them. After going thru a case of firing one guy that was incompetent but not so incompetent he couldn't hassle us with a lawyer, you tend to keep the idiot while making his life miserable enough to get him to leave of his own accord, while also correcting him across the room when needed(which I also hate doing)
Small shops don't have a "retreat" for everyone to get to know the product line, we are expected to learn it on our own, usually on our own time.

You put on a dog and pony show like that in my LBS and the owner personally kicks your ass out the door.

It's unfortunate that every cyclist can't walk into any LBS and make a positive connection with the first employee they talk to. It seems like sharing a common interest like cycling would be reaon enough for that to take place. Unforunately that's not the case. Shop employees are as diverse as LBS customers and not everyone is going to hit it off. Sometimes this leads to confrontation. The difference is that LBS employees are held to a standard of professionalism and aren't supposed to let it get personal. There are a few employees that don't meet this standard but that doesn't mean all are bad. Customers only have their own personal standards to hold themselves to and fortunately the vast majority are good people. I think krispistoferson made a very enlightened statement when he said he just doesn't deal with the LBS employee that he doesn't get along with. Unfortunately most shops don't have enough employees to be able to exercise the same option.
There are always going to be customers that don't like certain LBS employees and visa versa. In the end the people that are happiest are those that don't allow a couple bad experiences to cause them to give up on the other. MMACH 5, I'm glad that you found an LBS employee that you like instead of avoiding us all together.



I am not attacking all LBSs and their sales staff, and I still go to this LBS, I just don't deal with this guy. .


Ding! Ding! Ding! I think I've found a new LBS. I don't mind driving further for that kind of service.

You're patient, that's 3 more than I would have put up with.

I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops, sometimes when the mood takes me I play the noob and have some fun ;) but when it comes time to spend some major $$$ I do all my research long before stepping foot into the LBS then I go in there knowing exactly what I want and exactly how much I'm prepared to pay, then it's just a mtter of negotiating the sweetest deal in terms of getting accesories thrown in to close it.

Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge', I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue beyond what they read in their brochures and 'service' means 'sell you something for as much $$$ as possible' and most of them couldn't lie straight in bed.

That's funny, I've heard some amazing BS flow from forum types that love to talk about how much more they know than LBS employees. Remember, we're all in it for the vast amount of money that we make and the shear pleasure we derive from knowing we just totally screwed someone. :rolleyes:
The weird thing is I only see these members asking questions in the mechanics' forum, not answering them.

To the OP, as someone else suggested, the Long Haul Trucker is a great ride. Go for the burgundy pearl and you won't regret it. As an added bonus, your shop can custom-build one exactly as you want or take advantage of a more-cost effective pre-built configuration from Surly.

You're patient, that's 3 more than I would have put up with.

I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops, sometimes when the mood takes me I play the noob and have some fun ;) but when it comes time to spend some major $$$ I do all my research long before stepping foot into the LBS then I go in there knowing exactly what I want and exactly how much I'm prepared to pay, then it's just a mtter of negotiating the sweetest deal in terms of getting accesories thrown in to close it.

Forget all the rubbish you read here about 'service' and 'knowledge', I'm yet to find anyone in an LBS that has a clue beyond what they read in their brochures and 'service' means 'sell you something for as much $$$ as possible' and most of them couldn't lie straight in bed.


http://www.cheekymonkey.com.au/images/DCP00062.jpg

They're friendly to people that are friendly to them, they're also in your city and offer hands on assistance, something that's hard to get from an online store. Must be a right pain shipping a bike for repairs.

I suppose my first post did leave the impression that I was disgusted with bike shops in general, which is not the case. I do realize that I'm not going to have a positive experience with everyone I deal with, (in any environment, not just in a bike shop).

That being said, it is true that a customer's first impression is the most important. It will shade that person's thought process when dealing with any company.

As I did mention in my second post, I've had many pleasant experiences with the wrenches at this bike shop. Heck, I see one of them on his bike, occasionally, while commuting to work. Being a commuter myself, this tells me that he can relate to my cycling needs.
So, I'm not boycotting this shop, by any means, but I will stear more of my business to the bike shop where I had a very respectful interaction with the sales rep.

I have to admit that I like to frequent a bike shop that is significantly further from my house, just because the owner and employees are so friendly.

Why would a salesman talk you into a bike that costs a little over half the cost of the bike you wanted?

Why would a salesman talk you into a bike that costs a little over half the cost of the bike you wanted?

Probably because he didn't have the bike I wanted in stock. The two other bikes were on the floor and ready to sell.

Probably because he didn't have the bike I wanted in stock. The two other bikes were on the floor and ready to sell.

Right, but all he has to do is order it, and sell the other bikes to people that want them, or fall for his bs.

Heck, I see one of them on his bike, occasionally, while commuting to work. Being a commuter myself, this tells me that he can relate to my cycling needs.

That sort of sums up the frustrations I have with LBSs. They tend to be orientated to recrational riding and don't understand utilitarian riding. Generally I find the mechanics are good, but "chained" in the back some where. Okay, they probably aren't really chained to anything, but I won't get to see them as they are kind of busy. I can understand that and don't have a problem with it. They sales people tend to be younger and less experienced, but either road or mountain bike enthusiasts. Sure there is overlap relating to bicycles, but there are also differences with commuting/utilitarian cycling. But then, the industry as a whole is weak on commuting. But then, why should they when people won't utilitarian cycle. And then an infinite loop develops.

While riding I recall seeing the faces of some bike sales people on road bikes once in a while. But if I saw one commuting/utilitarian riding, that would be my LBS. Until the commuting market segment gets bigger than a blip, I guess it's going to continue to be frustrating.

Aren't commission salespeople helpful? Just full of all the info you don't need! What really grates me is that they will sell you stuff that doesn't even fit simply because its what they have. Be careful out there. bk

I didn't even bother to read this thread, I just wanted to post my two cents. I worked part time at a bike shop for about 6 months, and my customers appreciated my knowledge and top-notch service. But I quit a Porsche/Audi/VW dealership after only 2 weeks.

Go figure.

That wins the ignorant ****** statement of the day. Congratulations.
I will see if we can just remove the mechaincs and general cycling section since no one needs it.

If cyclaholic is correct in his stated experiences with bike shops, he's visiting the worst of the breed. I know the good Rev. has been in the business and seems to represent the better elements. To my great dissapointment, a bike shop that has been a true "mom & pop" for close to 60 years has recently closed. It was in fact run by mom & pop. The older gentleman had taken it over from his brother many years ago. He and his wife were in late 70's early eighties and decided to retire. I'd been doing business with them and their mechanics for the last 6-7 years. Their mechanics were solid with knowledge and experience with and absolute minimum of BS. Mom & Pop were absolutely great! Seeing them go out of business was almost as sad to me personally, as when Tom Landry passed away. I have no idea where I might take my business in the future.

Though in agreement with cyclaholic, there are too many of the bike shops that represent the dark side.

What do you expect? It's South Florida.

The inability to grasp sarcasm is a sign of autism. Better check that out.

What do you expect? It's South Florida.

The inability to grasp sarcasm is a sign of autism. Better check that out.
Yea, we all enjoy sarcasm from LBS owners. Makes us want to spend money.

Hmm. Suddenly I smell something. Better check my shoes.

OP: Sorry about your experience at the Trek dealer, the 520 is a great bike from an s***y company. I would humbly suggest looking at something like a Surly “Long Haul Trucker” at a LBS that is actually independent. It sounds like you were shopping at a “concept” store; indys will treat you better if they want to stay in business.?

I know this is off-topic, but what on earth is wrong with Trek? I've never seen a single reason to hate them except that they are a big, successful company, which happens to have a diverse line of great products. Furthermore, just because a bike shop sells Treks doesn't mean that it isn't independent. In fact, the fact that Trek is such a big company probably makes it a very appealing choice for a dealer - supply is likely to be readily available, shipped and delivered quickly, and managed professionally. The majority of LBS's in the USA are independently owned small businesses, no? That doesn't mean that the employees and/or proprietors are necessarily going to give better service. I hear about sucky independent LBS's all the time on these boards.

Also, the LHT is available only as a frameset. I don't think that it's unreasonable of some cyclists to want to buy a complete bike and make any upgrades after the fact, rather than having to spec it and build it themselves, or with the help of the shop.

There is nothing wrong with Trek product. As a company, they have a reputation of not protecting the dealers that helped make them the company they are today. This that makes no difference to the consumer, but means something to dealers. They also bank on their "made in USA" a bit much for a comapny that has a fair amount of product made overseas. Nothing wrong with that but it is as misleading as the Spcialized "designed in USA" propaganda.

You hear about sucky LBS from the same fifteen or twenty posters over and over( I have them on a list :), they also tend to gripe about service whereever they go. What is the common denominator? Exercise Occams razor.) Bike Forums has over 15,000 members with only twenty that ***** about shops.
You can get the LHT as a complete bike and all the other Surly bikes.. It is offered that way thru Quality, and you can alter spec. I even tried to talk a guy into the complete bike last year as it would save him some money, but he wanted to build up a bike from scratch

im sure you guys will hear me bragging about this place a LOT in the future, but here I go again....

Pedal Play on Plank Rd in Baton Rouge. The owner is Scott Mackey...who is a well-known mechanic who pits for Kona's pro team.

I had the single best experience I have ever had while shopping for a bike at his store. He actually got the bike I was interested in and two chairs. He propped the bike up infront of us, and started explaining EVERYTHING about the bike in detail...right down the brand name of the shift cables...and he knew it by HEART.

He then went on to explain how the bike can be adjusted to my liking, and said that when my bike comes in, he recommends I use it as he'll have it set up for 15-20 hours of ride-time in order for the Marzocchi fork to break in along with the Fox rear shock. He said he would explain it a million times if that's what it took for me to COMPLETELY understand how the bike works...but that he would adjust anything I wanted for free anytime I had a problem.

From start to finish, he spent WELL over 1 1/2 hours talking to me about this ONE bike, making absolute sure it is what I wanted/needed. He then did a custom fitting, and placed the order for the bike with the replacement parts.

He said the bike would arrive at his shop the middle of next week, and he would call me just in case I wanted to come by to see him put it together, which he said would take a few days...but I was more than welcome to come by every day if I wanted.

He said I could see how the forks are assembled and aired up, etc etc

Seriously, even if the Kona wouldn't have been a brand name I was interested in, I would have ended up buying a bike from him based SOLELY upon the fact that he is DEAD SERIOUS about making his customers happy.

His quote "I don't care if you spend $200 on a bike, or $8000 on a bike...you get treated the SAME way. That $200 was money you could have spent somewhere ELSE."

THIS is a bike shop I can patronize.

I've heard some amazing BS flow from snake oil salesmen working in bike shops, sometimes when the mood takes me I play the noob and have some fun ;)

Been there, done that. One of the shops where we lived in Australia tried to explain to me the basics of frame materials and groups, as well as disc brakes for MTBs. Silly me, I just quietly nodded, with a blank look on my face. We ran into him a bit later at a charity event. We were on our $10k custom titanium tandem, complete with titanium disc brakes at the time. Yeah, thanks for talking down to me, matey! :D

Also, the Rev has no idea what it's like in Australia. The quality of service is as varied as in the US, but the prices really, really suck.

I have a cattle dog and he told me everything.

Yea, we all enjoy sarcasm from LBS owners. Makes us want to spend money.

Every wrench/shop-owner that I've found worth their salt has had a pretty good sense of gallows humor.

If they don't, they're either new or deluded.

OK, I've taken some time to reflect on my original post and the flurry of responses it led to.

First of all I want to offer an apology to all that I offended, including you Rev Chuck. Yes, I was out of line in how I worded my post and I can see how it was offensive to those of you in the industry that strive to rise above mediocrity. To you I apologise.

In the way of clarification (not trying to make excuses, just explain my position), I can only say that it was a reaction to a string of bad experiences I've had with the few nearby LBS's here, so my LBS experience doesn't gel with what I read in these forums with regards to standards of service and product knowledge that one would expect. in future I'll endeavour to be more factual and less reactive.

I still think some of those responses were out of line, but what the hell, it's only an online forun after all.