Training & Nutrition - So... who's running?

Just curious to see who's running now that winter is here in the Northern Hemisphere. I've been running roads mostly, but I plan to start hitting trails with my cycling club pretty soon.

My runs are mostly in the 10 km range, and I figure I can probably get 40-50 km per week. My shoes are an old pair of Asics Gel Moros that I'd like to replace. If anyone has suggestions for a good trail shoe that's also at home on the road, I'm all ears...

I'm running ~4 miles, pretty easy pace, a couple times a week. I run pretty much year-round, but generally at higher intensity than right now.

I use Saucony Shadow 6000s (http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-bin/rrs/rrs/ProductPg.jsp?baseProdKey=RRSCN-418&catOID=-8890&BV_SessionID=@@@@1017661843.1038755487@@@@&BV_EngineID=fadcfjldleifbekgcgecfeedgf.0). These would work for a fairly tame trail. They're good for paved and unpaved roads, IMO.

well i did my first run in about 3 weeks yesterday - only about 7km (a little more than 4 miles) but i did a pretty decent pace (about 34 minutes, so about 7:45/mile) with a bunch of fartlecks (yes, that's the corect term for "running" fast and then slow, etc).

up until about 2 years ago when i got a bulged disc in my lower back from the impact of running, i used to run 2-4 times a week (did triathlon and adventure racing).

since then i limit it to 1 or max 2 days a week -- so that my back stays under control and i can cycle.

but i find running a good mix to cycling and also provides good all-round fitness in a short amount of time.

as to shoes: the most important thing is to get shoes that match your running form: pronation, heel-striker, high arch, no arch, etc.

in the winter when i cycle a little less b/c of the weather, i will try and run 1-2 times per week. i try to do high intensity rather than lots of miles (again, most benefit for the least problems with my back)

I only run if I am being chased.

If one of my boyfriends is chasing me, I don't run very fast. :love:

im running six days a week. yesterday's workout was a strength workout-10x400 meters, at a 72 second pace, then a set of 600,400,300,200,100 meters. adding a two mile warmup, and a two mile cool-down, the daily milage was 7.5 miles. Not bad, i would say.

I wear the asics gel-nimbus. They fit my stride which is one that underpronates (rolls outward) a lot. They have moderate arch support, and are pretty stable. They're my second pair in a row.

yesterday's workout was a strength workout-10x400 meters, at a 72 second pace, then a set of 600,400,300,200,100 meters.

Phatman, you're making me miss my track training! i haven't found anyone to train with since i left Oregon in 2000 and i've been too lazy to go myself. but the 200s, 400s and 100s are my favorites (i'm a sprinter). i have to get my logbook, but i was doing sub-minute 400 repeats 3 years ago...

i just moved 2 weeks ago but returning from a ride yesterday i think i say a running track near me - hopefully it's open to the public in the evenings...

but Phatman, 7.5 miles on a track day is pretty good! i usually did about that much total on my track days, but most of the mileage on the slow warm-up/cool-down running to and from the track.

Is there another election coming up or something?

:confused:

Yeah, I'll run in that. Why not?

nathank, I'm a distance runner, so these speedwork workouts show off all of my faults as a runner. If we were doing just a simple 10 miles, I could keep up, but the intervals are brutal.

Of that workout that I mentioned, about 4 of it was warming up and cooling down. Our coach makes us run the warm-ups on grass so that our knees don't explode in the middle of the season from all the impact.

I think that our coach is trying to work us back up to 50 miles per week for indoor after tapering for the state cross-country meet.

You said you went to Oregon? Thats pretty cool, thats where my coach went to school, but that was back in the day when Steve Prefontaine still was in his prime.

You said you went to Oregon? Thats pretty cool, thats where my coach went to school, but that was back in the day when Steve Prefontaine still was in his prime.

actually no. i went to University of Texas and then moved to Portland Oregon. but there is still some "influence" from the UofO running scene/history on the climate in Portland. i assume you've seen the movie about Prefontaine? it's really good.

unfortunately i didn't run in high school or college (soccer in HS, volleyball and road cycling in college). as a youngster i played soccer where punishment was always given in "running laps" so i hated running even though i did a lot in my soccer training... in Oregon i started training with some cyclists who were runners and triathletes (a lot from Nike) and got into multi-sport and adventure racing and some triathlon(i'm a crappy swimmer).

i wish i had had an interest in running in HS/college and had run track - actually what i would have like to have done is decathlon - i'm a short-to-middle-distance runner/sprinter with great jumping ability (36" vertical when i was training for volleyball). i have never competed in track/short-distance competitively but i think i could have at at least the HS level...

i have to limit my running now b/c of lower back and knee problems.

i've done a bunch of 10ks and other distance events (triathlons, adventure racing), but anything over about 1 mile is not really my strength... the last 5 years most of my training in both cycling and running has been distance/endurance so i have really improved. on the positive side, i have speed and don't have to do much for it, although i believe i am probably slower now as i haven't trained for speed at all in at least 2 years (haven't been on the track with the bicycle either since i left Oregon in 2000!)

I'm running, absurdly slow at 11 minute miles (no walking!) Its hard to run in the city with all of the intersections!

11 minute miles -- about 6:45 min/km -- isn't absurdly slow. It's the pace of an easy jog, to be honest. Don't worry about distance or pace right now; think about time. Run for one hour and then 90 minutes... Once you're doing that, try to get your 10 km down to 50 minutes... then you can start doing real speed work and shave off time.

wow, nathank, you sound pretty athletic. The main reason why I'm running and biking is because I'm not very good at anything else. I think my main problem is a total and complete lack of hand-eye coordination.

I tried my hand at football (american), wrestling, and was pretty crummy at both. I got cut from the football team, and still thinking I would try out the next year, I wrestled. I lost 30 pounds, then did track in the spring. I liked how the people in track were so laid back--a total opposite from the people in wrestling and football. I started out running a 6:20 mile PR in freshman year, and I've managed to improve it by a minute to 5:20 in sophomore year. Well, Indoor track of junior year has just started...I'm hoping to break five...then 4:30. Its in sight!

My training is frustrating though, i have to work to shave every second off of my time. There are freshman that come in faster then me with their only exercise being lifting the dorito chip to their mouth while lying on the couch. I suppose it build character...

Here's a question, am I just not running my bodies pace if after a couple blocks I'm already winded? I can bike 80 miles and still have some kinda energy. But I can't run a mile with out dying...

I ran for the first time in...oh...say...uh...about 42 years yesterday. That hurt in everyway imaginable ;) .

I think I'm going to try to get out 3 nights a week for at least an hour during the winter months and cycle on the weekends. My plan is to start out walking and running and try to build to mostly running, excepting warmup and cooldown periods.

I bought some decent shoes and spent a few hours at runnersworld.com but would consider any tips experienced runners from this site can offer as a bonus. I'll be running on sidewalks in the Winter Wonderland hoping to build up enough endurance to make it to the trail head and start trail running.

Goals are weight loss and cardio fitness.

TIA

Threadend

originally posted by Arsbars
Here's a question, am I just not running my bodies pace if after a couple blocks I'm already winded? I can bike 80 miles and still have some kinda energy. But I can't run a mile with out dying...

probably... i think most beginning runners try to go too fast, get winded and tired and quit. i'm assuming you're somewhat fit from cycling (like say you can ride 20 miles or more) and you're not excessively overweight. is so, you should be able to run at least 2 or 3 miles at a really slow pace. if not, walk it or alternate between running and walking and in a few weeks you'll soon be running the whole 2-3 miles and can either do more miles or run at a faster pace.

my problem was that I was ignorant and ran over an uneven bike path for about 7 miles and when I got home my knee had liquified. My muscles hurt a bit, but I was not winded. As a result, I have not run in the last few days to give the knee a chance to recover. I'm almost going crazy!

Yeah... running can get addictive. I even ran the very top of Mount Pleasant and the loop around Summit Circle yesterday. [Feel the BURN!]

Some things for beginning runners to remember:

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Don't push it too hard at the beginning. As Arsbars has found, when you come to running from cycling, you expect to be at the same level as you were cycling. You are in terms of cardiovascular fitness, but you're not in muscular terms. Start with short, easy runs of about 15 minutes for a week; bump that up to 20 minutes for a couple of runs, and then try to push your runs up five minutes each.
Run fartlecks. This is when you run and walk... run for four minuyes, walk for two; repeat. You have no idea how effective fartlecks can be to improve your running.
Run with other people when possible. It's a lot easier to stay motoivated when you have people to talk to and compete with.
Run for time, not for distance. In a month or so, you'll be able to mark out specific distances and test your pace. For now, the issue is getting your body accustomed to running.
You will feel pain. Running uses a whole lot of different muscles than cycling. When you use them the first time, you tear them. The re-knitting and healing process can be very painful, expecially 24-48 hours after your first run. But it's necessary, and it's the process that mkes your muscles stronger. The good news is that, after the first two painful times, you don't feel the pain anymore.
STRETCH. You have to stretch before and after every run. If you don't, you will be injured. At very least, stretch your quads, hams and calves.
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Running can be a blast. It's not cycling, but it has its own attractions. I ran with a group of colleagues last week and I found that my sprint has carried over nicely from cycling.

Originally posted by velocipedio


Some things for beginning runners to remember:
Run fartlecks. This is when you run and walk... run for four minuyes, walk for two; repeat. You have no idea how effective fartlecks can be to improve your running.


What is the logical or phisological reason behind this?


On a completely different note, you are such a geek for using the list feature.

the reason for fartleks is that many new runners simply dont have the ability to run for an hour or so. By doing fartleks, you get the athletic benifits of running (raised HR, strenghtening muscles), and you can sustain it for a longer period of time by resting your muscles. When you recover, make sure that your HR doesn't drop all the way down. You want to just catch your breath

Fartleks aren't just for beginners, or runners for that matter. My (running) coach has us go for 8 mile fartlek runs that consist of 15 minutes easy running at 7:30-8 minute pace, then an 8 minute fartlek at 6 minute pace or faster, followed by easy running at 7:30 to 8 until breath is suffenctly caught for about 4 minutes, then a 6 minute long fartlek, then 3 minutes recovery, then 4 minute fartlek, 2 minute recovery, a 2 minute fartlek, 1 min recovery, then another 2 minute fartlek, recover, then 4 bursts of about 30 seconds. The rest of the 8 miles is at easy 7:30-8 pace. (by this time its mostly 8 minute pace...we're so freakin tired!)


You will feel pain. Running uses a whole lot of different muscles than cycling. When you use them the first time, you tear them. The re-knitting and healing process can be very painful, expecially 24-48 hours after your first run. But it's necessary, and it's the process that mkes your muscles stronger. The good news is that, after the first two painful times, you don't feel the pain anymore.

This can be true, but if you feel sharp pain, STOP RUNNING! Sometimes, a sharp pain is a torn somethingorother. Ice it. Also, if there is pain, (not just muscle soreness) you probably are overtraining. Reduce the intensity. Go ride a bike. If you dont reduce your training, you could be in for a serious overuse injury, like a stress fracture of your shin or foot, or tendenitis of your knees. (extremely painful)

Phatman... yes, the pain I was referring to was that stiff ache you feel 24-48 hours after your first run. Pain during a run is generally to be avoided. Try to stretch it out; if that doesn't work, go easy; if that doesn't work, stop. And pain in the joints is never good.

Originally posted by Spire
On a completely different note, you are such a geek for using the list feature.
:roflmao:

Fartlek (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fartlek) literally translated means "speedplay". The best way to understand it is to compare it to other forms of speedwork, notably intervals, or repeats.

Interval work consists of running a fixed distance (typically between 200m and a mile) at your best possible speed, when this fixed is complete you run the same or more often a shorter distance at a "recovery" pace. This is usually a "jog" but could be a walk as well. These intervals are expressed like so:

4X400 with 200m recoveries or 6x1600 with 800m recoveries. That's 4 400m runs at speed broken up by 200m jogs or 6 miles at speed punctuated by half mile jogs.

If you don't have access to a measured distance (a track) you can do the same with a stopwatch. 90 seconds at speed followed by a one minute jog, the whole cycle repeated 4 or five times.

The key features are measured speed and distance for the intervals.

Fartlek is unstructured speedwork. These are unmeasured bursts of speed inserted into an ordinary run. Running to catch a green light or racing with a squirrel on a wire are both good examples. This is why it is called speed "play".

The reason this type of training works is that you can gradually "teach" your body to run at a faster pace overall by introducing it to short bursts of speed with recoveries in between. Your muscles will get stronger and your body becomes better able to utilize oxygen. As the length of the interval increases (800m and above) You start to train your body to dispose of lactic acid better, or at least tolerate it better. Generally those running 800m or 1 mile repeats are aiming at races that are 10km or more. I have even heard of some folks running 3x5km routines.

Fartlek builds the same attributes, but you go about it in a much more relaxed and laid back way. Most runners are crazy for numbers and so find fartlek unsettling. If you don't believe me, try running a new route and leave your watch at home. Most runners would find this very disturbing activity. (What to I write in the log ?...)


regards
Dan

Originally posted by Phatman
the reason for fartleks is that many new runners simply dont have the ability to run for an hour or so. By doing fartleks, you get the athletic benifits of running (raised HR, strenghtening muscles), and you can sustain it for a longer period of time by resting your muscles. When you recover, make sure that your HR doesn't drop all the way down. You want to just catch your breath...

Can anybody give me a rough guideline in terms of % of MHR to indicate sufficient recovery? I'm working on structuring my running plan and one workout will be to run fartleks at 80 - 85% of max for a set time period. Then by using my HRM low setpoint to notify me that I've reached the recovery heartrate, I can begin the next interval.

threadend:

The best way to figure out what a good percentage would be for you is to measure it. Also note that "max heart rate" should be computed using your resting rate as a base, not simply 220-(your age). Most folks "max HR" is a good deal higher than 220-(your age) yields. It is just that it is profoundly uncomfortable to find your measured (vs. computed) maximum rate.

You can start by going out to a track and using the tried and true (if not terribly accurate) "talk test". If you can converse normally without breathing through your mouth or otherwise sucking wind, you probably are recovered enough to start the next interval. Bring your HRM and note the rate where this happens. After a few laps at speed and recovery, take and average and call that your number. Be aware this number will most likely change as you get fitter and faster.

Also note the talk test has a corellary called the "singing test". If you find that you are recovered enough to sing, then you are running to slow and should have already started the next repeat.

regards
Dan

PS: If you are measuring, then they are not fartleks.....

Originally posted by DanFromDetroit
...If you are measuring, then they are not fartleks.....

Dan,

Thanks, I'm pretty well set on MHR from cycling. I've been able to develop training regimens in cycling that produce steady increases in performance and fitness. I am a gadget, chart and #'s geek, so the analytical aspect of the measuring and recording approach usually works best for me.

As a beginning runner I'm trying to find a way to raise my base level of conditioning for running to the point where I can begin to structure my training similar to what I do on the bike and accomplish my goals.

Are fartleks the right tool or should I be considering something else at this stage?

What condition should I use to determine that it's time to begin a recovery interval?

As a beginning runner, you should just get out there and run at a comfortable pace. Start with short, 15-minute runs, and build up.

Originally posted by velocipedio
[...]
5. You will feel pain. Running uses a whole lot of different muscles than cycling. When you use them the first time, you tear them. The re-knitting and healing process can be very painful, expecially 24-48 hours after your first run. But it's necessary, and it's the process that mkes your muscles stronger. The good news is that, after the first two painful times, you don't feel the pain anymore.

I first got into running before I got into cycling as an adult. What I had to deal with was shin splints... pain on the front of your leg below your knee. Maybe it isn't as big a deal if your legs are conditioned from cycling. But, I experienced it for months when I started. I may have brought it on myself... since I went at it full bore. As it was, the pain was always there when I ran, but would get better after the first couple of minutes. Eventually it went away and has never returned.

The hole in my knee where the cartalage used to be says no, I will not now or ever run willingly. Changes in the weather hurt enough for me

Shin splints happen when you do not stretch out your calf muscles enough, they pull on your foot and the smaller muscles on your shin have difficulty counterbalancing=pain, stretch calf=no pain, I think

I've always had good luck with New Balance running shoes, which I've bought over the past 35 years. I've bought them because, as far as I know, they're the only major producer who still has at least some of their plants in the U.S. I guess everybody else is in Asia.

What I had to deal with was shin splints... pain on the front of your leg below your knee. Maybe it isn't as big a deal if your legs are conditioned from cycling. But, I experienced it for months when I started. I may have brought it on myself

shin splints are very common in running. basically it's because the muscles aren't used to the motion and get torn up and can't recover b/c you run again. it usually happens when you increase mileage too quickly -- i.e. start running and do 8 miles and week and then suddenly go to 50 miles/week after a few weeks.

big key in running is GRADUAL - no big changes.

i don't think it's the calf muscle directly - i think it's the opposing muscle the name of which i don't know. and i don't think cycling trains this muscle much at all -- i.e. just b/c you ride 200 mi/week does not mean you can just start running 50/week out of the blue. the muscle use is very different.

as to shin splints: there are exercises like putting a book on your foot and lifting it using your toes that build up this muscle to prevent or cure shin splints. if they get really bad (i.e. very painful so you can' run) you MUST quit running altogether for a few weeks to allow it to heal and then do the exercises and then start running again GRADUALLY. most runners have a VERY hard time not running for 3-4 weeks, so often people have shin splints for months b/c they just start running again as soon as the extreme pain is gone - wrong! do a search on the web for shin splints. there are a bunch of sites with good exercieses. most you can do them at home and don't need any special equipment. if you're a work out frak and can't go 3 weeks w/o exercise (like me) just go cycling, swimming or use one of those eliptical trainers in the gym.

i had mild shin splints a few years ago when i was doing triathlons and competitive adventure racing(multisport). my training partner had had really bad shin splints a few months prior, so i knew what to do and it was better in just a few weeks after doing the exercises and backing off my running miles a little.

I use to run alot but never liked pounding pavement.I would do marathon milages on weekends at an isolated national wildlife preserve/national seashore area.Then I changed my focus to trail running sprinting up and down 3000-4000 ft. mtns.Since I have lived in Fl. however my running has been limited to occasional sprints at a large bridge or a light jog up the stairs of a multilevel mall lol.However after riding my bike(always loaded) 17 miles to the nearest bridge I usu. just feel like riding over it not sprinting though I may give it a try now just for variety.As to a running shoe I to used Asics because I have a high arched supinating foot and found the light slip-lasted asics fit me well.However for trail running I found their entrys cheaply put together and would quickly fall apart particularly in the front toe guard area so I switched to the light Addidas trail runners with good results though they to don't hold up long if you take them off trail in the woods much.I noticed Addidas makes a light adventure racing shoe with a strong toe guard (it was named for a Wy. peak which escapes me now)but this may be too much if you want to use it on road as well.Generally I liked a lightweight,lightly cushioned trail running shoe that allowed you to feel and react to the surface and these would be more suited to onroad as well just make sure its fairly durable.As to shinsplints I never had those I guess I ramped up my milage properly however those muscles as Nathan mentioned are opposing to the calves and can be trained/strengthened with a slight variation to seated/standing calf raises where instead of extending the feet as far back off a block you extend them as far foward off the front as possible before doing the raises(can be done without weight).