Road Cycling - Gearing and Climbing

All,

I am brand new road bike owner, having previously been a Sport Class Mountain biker for about 10 years or so.

My question is this: On my MTN Bike I am a decent climber. However, the big thing I am noticing on my road bike is that I am terrible climber. I seem to run out of gears fast, and on the few group rides I have been on, I got guys passing me and it seems like they are spinning at a higher cadence with less effort.

Now, I am not idiot, and I know that fitness has alot to do with the equation. I know its going to take some time to get used to riding a road bike with a completely different gearing combo then my mountain bike. All that aside, my question mainly focuses on my current gear setup.

I have a 2006 Jamis Ventura Comp with a Compact Crank with 5036 and a 12-25 rear nine speed. Would I benefit from a different gear combo?

You're already geared pretty low. With standard 9-speed equipment you could replace the 36 with a 34 and change the cassette to a 12-27. This would make a significant difference, but for most riding I would prefer the gearing you already have with closer ratios.

Al

Yes, but you don't have much lower to go without making some heavier modifications.

Gearing on road bikes is a lot higher than mountain bikes. So it makes a little sense for you to say you are a decent climber on MTB but not road.

Easiest/quickest mod is to go for a 12-27 cassette. That doesn't get you much. You could try putting a "mountain" cassette (e.g. 30+ teeth largest cog) on, but be aware your existing rear derailer may not handle it (most are spec'ced to 27 teeth, can handle 28 or 29 easily, some maybe 30 but usually not more than that). So if you go that route you may need a new derailer ("mountain"). You could also try changing out your 36 chainring for a 34. A 34 in combination with a 27 cassette gets you pretty low gearing.

Unfortunately, none of this will make you a better climber -- it'll just make it a little easier.

FiveTenFrank, where outside of Philly do you ride anyway?

To be on topic, the guys' replies have offered good advice. Do you know what gearing the guys you are riding with are using? For some of the hills in my area, I love having a 30 tooth granny ring and a 25 in the rear on my all weather bike. My climbing bike has a low gear of 30-27.

30-27?

What kind of hill percent and RPM are you handling with that low of a gear combo?
I think that I would be spinning pretty fast using that gear...

FiveTenFrank, where outside of Philly do you ride anyway?

To be on topic, the guys' replies have offered good advice. Do you know what gearing the guys you are riding with are using? For some of the hills in my area, I love having a 30 tooth granny ring and a 25 in the rear on my all weather bike. My climbing bike has a low gear of 30-27.

Joe, I ride in Ridley Creek State Park, Valley Forge, Fairmount Park. I have only had the bike out a few times this year.

In response to the other person who asked if I knew what my friends were riding, I know two guys are riding standard cranks as opposed to the compact that I am riding. I am not sure what type of rear cassette they are using.

I guess my problem is that when I am on my MTN bike, I am never really riding any long steep climbs. Most of the climbing I am doing are quick "power climbs" where I just hammer the climb hard and fast.

All of the climbs I have been getting dropped on have been long, steep climbs where I am ok in the beginning of the climb but fade about alf way up.

since you're already running 50/36 with a 12/25 you dont need a gear switch. you need time in the saddle. it will get better.

30-27?

What kind of hill percent and RPM are you handling with that low of a gear combo?
I think that I would be spinning pretty fast using that gear...

I used that gear on the 21+% climbs in the Highlander last fall. Can't remember my cadence exactly but I was moving at around 7mph on the steepest sections.

Joe, I ride in Ridley Creek State Park, Valley Forge, Fairmount Park. I have only had the bike out a few times this year.

In response to the other person who asked if I knew what my friends were riding, I know two guys are riding standard cranks as opposed to the compact that I am riding. I am not sure what type of rear cassette they are using.

I guess my problem is that when I am on my MTN bike, I am never really riding any long steep climbs. Most of the climbing I am doing are quick "power climbs" where I just hammer the climb hard and fast.

All of the climbs I have been getting dropped on have been long, steep climbs where I am ok in the beginning of the climb but fade about alf way up.

I'm about 15 miles south of Ridley Creek State Park. I'll often ride out that way as there are some great roads with some fun climbs.

Sounds like all you need to work on is conserving energy during a longer climb. Just keep climbing. I'd suggest Gradyville Road through RCSP (if you don't already ride this road) and Stony Bank Road headed towards Route 1 (a couple miles south of the park).

Just a thought but .... maybe it is actually your technique that needs fixing here.

Are you perhaps attacking the hill too fast at the beginning? If you are used to quick power climbs on your MTB, some of that may be creeping into your approach to long steep climbs, so you expend all your energy early on and then run out of steam.

As others have already suggested, replacing the rear casette with a 12-27 will give you slightly lower gearing and is an easy mod.

Just a thought but .... maybe it is actually your technique that needs fixing here.

Are you perhaps attacking the hill too fast at the beginning? If you are used to quick power climbs on your MTB, some of that may be creeping into your approach to long steep climbs, so you expend all your energy early on and then run out of steam.

As others have already suggested, replacing the rear casette with a 12-27 will give you slightly lower gearing and is an easy mod.

I concur. I think part of the problem is yes, I am used to short hard attacks on the MTB and the guys I am riding with are seasoned roadies and I am trying to hold their wheels (and failing) while climbing.

I may look into a 12-27 but I think I am going to put some miles on my current setup to see if saddle time is just what the Dr. ordered.

I may look into a 12-27 but I think I am going to put some miles on my current setup to see if saddle time is just what the Dr. ordered.

Here's my manifesto for low gears:

I was forced to climb yesterday in my 34/27 lowest gear, and I was wishing for something lower. When the lights go out, it's not a pretty sight. I was climbing the back side of Mt. Hamilton after about 8000' of spirited climbing that day -- after a peppy 4600' climbing session the day before -- and my legs finally just stopped working. I seriously thought about just getting off the bike and sitting on the side of the road, but I fought through the pain to the summit.

It sure is nice to have a bail out gear when you need it. 34/27 IS my bail out gear!

get campy legs :p

21+% climbs... I was moving at around 7mph on the steepest sections.

And what mph on the way up? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

-Greg

Climbing on a mountain bike is a lot different than climbing on a road bike. You'll have to get used to the way it feels and the differences in technique. If you're ridden enough in the last ten years to build up fitness in your legs it will come pretty quickly.

Otherwise it may take a year or two of constant training to bring your legs on line.

I know that every year I get better and I'm almost 62 now.

Here's my manifesto for low gears:

I was forced to climb yesterday in my 34/27 lowest gear, and I was wishing for something lower. When the lights go out, it's not a pretty sight. I was climbing the back side of Mt. Hamilton after about 8000' of spirited climbing that day -- after a peppy 4600' climbing session the day before -- and my legs finally just stopped working. I seriously thought about just getting off the bike and sitting on the side of the road, but I fought through the pain to the summit.

It sure is nice to have a bail out gear when you need it. 34/27 IS my bail out gear!
Yeah Terry, but you're built like a twig. (Not a Twigg).

Yeah Terry, but you're built like a twig. (Not a Twigg).

Maybe I should hit the leg press machine. It's always my legs that give up the fight. At the end of Everest Challenge, they were like Gumby's legs.

And what mph on the way up? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

-Greg

You know, I almost wrote back a slightly snappy comment until I realized that last smiley wasn't rolling it's eyes at me :) Sadly (or not so sadly for fear of serious injury) the Highlander course does not take you down any of the super steep sections. I did manage to hit 48mph coasting down one short-ish hill though.

And what mph on the way up? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

-Greg

I wasn't going to say anything, but you opened the door.

7 mph up a 21% grade is over 7700 ft/hr. Possible in a sprint, but impossible otherwise. It would require a power to weight ratio of about 8 to maintain that speed.

Even 5 mph would be world class.

I wasn't going to say anything, but you opened the door.

7 mph up a 21% grade is over 7700 ft/hr. Possible in a sprint, but impossible otherwise. It would require a power to weight ratio of about 8 to maintain that speed.

Even 5 mph would be world class.

Sorry, should have clarified "21+% peak" on that climb. Sounds better when I just say the 21+% part though :) And kinda justifies a 30-27, right?

I'm glad someone called BS on the 7 mph up a 21% grade. Maybe for a few seconds sprinting like a mofo, but if that's the average, you're a pro. Christ, I went up Mt Evans last year (from Denver) and was going like 3 around some of the last steep switchbacks.

A compact w/ a 25 is a already a crazy easy gear. Do not get a 27 - people that use those tiny gears (unless you're going up 20+% grades for extended periods which 99.99% of cyclists are not) go so fricking slow it's laughable.

I agree w/ bluecd - you're fine w/ the 25, just ride more.

I have a couple of road bikes with 50/36 compact cranks and I even have a triple. I also have an old Motobecane with 53/39 in the front and a 12/23 6 speed in the rear. I take all of these bikes up the same hills. Sometimes I get a red face and pant a lot getting the 26 1/2 lb Moto and my somewhat overweight 61 year old body up some of the hills, but, in the end, I get there just like I do with the lighter more modern bikes with lower gearing.

Put a few thousand miles on your odometer. I'll bet you'll be a better climber after that.

By the way, I really like the triple. It has a 42 tooth middle ring that handles everything for me from 7 mph to 25 mph and that's about the range that I ride 98% of the time. I don't use the front derailleur much at all on that bike. I'd be content with a 42 tooth single speed up front. I really would.

Are you mostly sitting on these long climbs, or are you getting out of the saddle and mashing?

Ride more... I think that is what I need too. But in the mean time I am putting a 12-27 in place of my 12- 25 for some longer mountain rides this summer, staying with a 53- 39 in the front, not sure what kind of difference that will make. I'll let y'all know.

Ride more... I think that is what I need too. But in the mean time I am putting a 12-27 in place of my 12- 25 for some longer mountain rides this summer, staying with a 53- 39 in the front, not sure what kind of difference that will make. I'll let y'all know.


you'll like that 27 with the 39. it will make a noticable difference.

I'm glad someone called BS on the 7 mph up a 21% grade. Maybe for a few seconds sprinting like a mofo, but if that's the average, you're a pro.

You'd be more than a pro. You'd be superhuman. Nobody can maintain that amount of power, including Pantani or Armstrong at their best.



Christ, I went up Mt Evans last year (from Denver) and was going like 3 around some of the last steep switchbacks.

From Denver? Whew, that's a long climb. I did it last year from Idaho Springs, and it was still a nasty haul. And those switchbacks near the top? They're not steep, they just seem that way at 14,000 feet. The last 1/2 mile averages a mere 4.5%. I averaged 7.3 mph for that section, pretty pathetic for that shallow a grade. An equivalent effort at sea level would be 10.2 mph -- still pretty lame. I was whipped.



A compact w/ a 25 is a already a crazy easy gear. Do not get a 27 - people that use those tiny gears (unless you're going up 20+% grades for extended periods which 99.99% of cyclists are not) go so fricking slow it's laughable.

Well, like I wrote above, it's nice to have a bail-out gear when the lights go out. I almost never use my 27, but when I need it, I need it bad.



I agree w/ bluecd - you're fine w/ the 25, just ride more.

It depends. If he can't maintain at least a 60 cadence, he's not doing himself any favors with the 25.

Ride more hills.

If your out with seasoned roadies of course they will be able to drop you, but there is no shame in that. Everyone started from the same place. If your working just as hard or harder as them, that is what people respect.

Lower gears won't make you any faster, they will just make it easier.

A compact w/ a 25 is a already a crazy easy gear. Do not get a 27 - people that use those tiny gears (unless you're going up 20+% grades for extended periods which 99.99% of cyclists are not) go so fricking slow it's laughable.



I don't think you can make such blanket statements. The right gear for any individual depends on 1) their fitness, 2) the terrain they ride, and 3) their goals. You need to be able to spin 80 rpm or so up the toughest climbs you're going to ride at a power output you can (or are willing to) sustain. Thus 39x23 may be plenty low for one rider while 34x27 may not be lowe enough for another.

Are you mostly sitting on these long climbs, or are you getting out of the saddle and mashing?

I tend to stay seated.

I don't think you can make such blanket statements. The right gear for any individual depends on 1) their fitness, 2) the terrain they ride, and 3) their goals. You need to be able to spin 80 rpm or so up the toughest climbs you're going to ride at a power output you can (or are willing to) sustain. Thus 39x23 may be plenty low for one rider while 34x27 may not be lowe enough for another.

I don't think you need to be able to spin that high on every single climb, but I definitely agree with the general sentiment on gearing . . . I've repeatedly witnessed guys (such as terrymorse) using lower gearing to out-climb other riders with higher low ends. Mere possession of a particular gearing doesn't make you faster or slower.

Doing more training (e.g. more time in the saddle on hills), possibly with higher gearing, will certainly help -- but that can also be counter-productive if you try too much too soon. I would not want to tear up my knees just to say I was able to ride a smaller cassette.

If you decide to change something try changing just the cassette to a 12-27. That's not a big change but it will make a difference. I'd leave the 50/36 chainring set as is if you can. I would expect it to have fewer mechanical problems and the ratio jump isn't as bad as a 50/34 set.

I've repeatedly witnessed guys (such as terrymorse) using lower gearing to out-climb other riders with higher low ends. Mere possession of a particular gearing doesn't make you faster or slower.

I saw a good example of this today in our "Hills R Us" ride. A group of us were riding the rollers on Skyline Road, from Highway 9 to Page Mill (San Francisco Peninsula). The group consisted of a few big engine/big ring guys and little old me.

I led up the second to last roller, got to the top and pulled off. Well, the guy behind me cranked up the pace big time, and I was unable to catch on at the back of the group. I fought my way to within about 20 yards but just couldn't close the gap. These big engine riders are just too strong for me on the flat or downhill, and once I lose the draft it's really tough. I finally stood and sprinted to catch on to the back end, just as we reached the bottom of the last roller.

The last roller is not long (0.7 miles) and not steep (4%), so someone with a big engine ought to do well on it. But I thought I'd give something a try. I dropped into my small chainring and spun gradually to the front, with everyone jumping on. I slowly raised my cadence to about 100, then shifted up to the next cog. I could hear the riders right behind me, breathing heavily. I raised the cadence again to 100 and shifted again. Riders were still on my wheel, but their breathing was heavier. By this point, my cadence was 100 again, so I shifted up and boosted the cadence back up to 100. That was enough, the big engine riders with their big rings couldn't keep up that pace and were off the back. I was pleased to be able to put the hurt on them, after the suffering they put me through moments earlier.

My heart rate was at threshold at the top, and I figure my power-to-weight was 5. I suppose that 5 is above the VO2max power-to-weight of the other guys (it pays to be light), so they couldn't stay with me. Since their absolute power numbers are higher than mine, they were able to put the hurt on me on the flat and downhill. But I was able to return the favor on the uphill, even a 4% grade.

Moral: I guess the moral is that power-to-weight is a bigger factor than gear selection when climbing, and that using a low gear doesn't necessarily make you slow. I think I started that roller in 34/21 and ended up in 34/17--pretty low gears. The other moral is to be nice to climbers on the flat and downhill. Otherwise, they may come back to bite you. ;)

And while I could feel all proud with this performance, I had already been brought down to earth on Highway 9. I was doing a threshold pace when Ted Huang (former Webcor pro) spun by me and slowly disappeared in the distance. I saw him at the top, where he confessed he was just doing an endurance pace.

I don't think you can make such blanket statements. The right gear for any individual depends on 1) their fitness, 2) the terrain they ride, and 3) their goals. You need to be able to spin 80 rpm or so up the toughest climbs you're going to ride at a power output you can (or are willing to) sustain. Thus 39x23 may be plenty low for one rider while 34x27 may not be lowe enough for another.

I agree fully. I don't believe that I can train that much to make Seattle-vicinity hills any easier on my KNEES. The thighs and calfs can be trained but they cannot take the force away from their junction - old and damaged cartilage. But if I can take the pressure off - LOW, LOW GRANNY. I can generally get up the steep pitches and yes, I may wobble a bit but at least, I won't limp in pain for the next week.

When I read the occasionally rabid negative response to those who want lower gearing, I shudder. Not everyone is superman or superwoman.

Just another viewpoint - a weeny perhaps but, at least, I'm still pedaling.....

IWhen I read the occasionally rabid negative response to those who want lower gearing, I shudder. Not everyone is superman or superwoman.

Just another viewpoint - a weeny perhaps but, at least, I'm still pedaling.....

This is worth mentioning, I think:

The limit to climbing speed is not the size or strength of a person's legs. It's the size of his heart.

Having been a long time mtn biker myself, one of the big differences I notice on a mtn bike versus a road bike is that off road you tend to mash on the pedals due to uneven terrain, needing short bursts to get over logs, etc.
What others have suggested as far as altering gearing is one thing to try.
However, I would really focus on your technique - spin, spin, spin. Get on some rollers if you have to so that you can really fine tune your spinning technique. Envision wiping dog doodoo off your feet during your pedal rotation, rather than just pushing down/pulling up. If you can keep your spin going, you'll be a lot more efficient. When the climb gets really steep, no doubt you'll probably be back to mashing the pedals again, but you will have been more efficient throughout your ride and will have more energy to keep your momentum going.

Also, it's not a bad thing that someone passes you (there will always be someone faster). Just try to hop on their wheel and hopefully your pride will MAKE you keep up :D

This has turned out to be a very good thread. Good job.

Having been a long time mtn biker myself, one of the big differences I notice on a mtn bike versus a road bike is that off road you tend to mash on the pedals due to uneven terrain, needing short bursts to get over logs, etc.

Here's another observation about mountain bikers who spend all of their time off-road: they have excellent power for short anaerobic bursts, but their endurance is lacking. That's why serious MTB racers spend most of their training time on the road. It's pretty hard to get a good aerobic workout on the trail.

fivetenfrank, I do a lot of climbing rides with groups and I am usually one of the slowest climbers being 210#. The best thing for me to do on a long climb is to let everyone go and just settle into a comfortable pace. After a time, I will start to catch some of them if they have gone too hard in the first part of the climb. Of course, sometimes I try to stay on and blow myself up, but that's part of the fun. If I'm doing a long climbing ride, say 9000 feet in 80 miles, I have to just ride my pace and not blow up.BTW I have a low of 30x25. I also think the weight is less of a disadvantage on the mtb.

Let me say thanks to all for the great advice. I think I just need some saddle time. I may open up another can of worms here, but are there any specific workouts I can do on a trainer to help with my climbing?

Right now, one night a week I do hill repeats on the trainer, usually in the order of 2-3 minutes seated climbing, 2 min rest, 2-3 min seated climbing, etc, etc. I may do 6-8 repeats of this, then do some standing climbs as well. then cool down.

The other nights I just do 2x8 big ring power/ time trial intervals, then another night either outside on the bike just spinning on flat stuff or doing hill repeats up a rather long "mountain" that I mentioned in the OP.

The good news is that I definately have made an improvement in my physical condition since I started training about a month and a half ago.

Well, like I wrote above, it's nice to have a bail-out gear when the lights go out. I almost never use my 27, but when I need it, I need it bad.

Just out of curiosity, do you ride much where there is not lots of climbing? A 34 is so small that unless you spend lots of time dealing with killer headwinds or really steep hills, I'd think the small ring would be nearly useless, even if you swap cassettes out. Being able to spin is nice, but there are some climbs that are so steep that you simply must stand. My touring bike used to have 30/32 on it and I've even found places where I had to stand on that.

Just out of curiosity, do you ride much where there is not lots of climbing? A 34 is so small that unless you spend lots of time dealing with killer headwinds or really steep hills, I'd think the small ring would be nearly useless, even if you swap cassettes out. Being able to spin is nice, but there are some climbs that are so steep that you simply must stand. My touring bike used to have 30/32 on it and I've even found places where I had to stand on that.

The short answer is no, I don't ride much on flat terrain (I'm a climbing fool).

When I'm on the flat or rollers, the small ring goes unused. But in the hills, the 34 ring gets a lot of use. My favorite gear combination is 34/21, which gets me to 10.4 mph at 80 rpm. That's a respectable speed for most climbs.

This is worth mentioning, I think:

The limit to climbing speed is not the size or strength of a person's legs. It's the size of his heart.

Sounds like the tagline to a Disney movie promotion.

All,

I am brand new road bike owner, having previously been a Sport Class Mountain biker for about 10 years or so.

My question is this: On my MTN Bike I am a decent climber. However, the big thing I am noticing on my road bike is that I am terrible climber. I seem to run out of gears fast, and on the few group rides I have been on, I got guys passing me and it seems like they are spinning at a higher cadence with less effort.

Now, I am not idiot, and I know that fitness has alot to do with the equation. I know its going to take some time to get used to riding a road bike with a completely different gearing combo then my mountain bike. All that aside, my question mainly focuses on my current gear setup.

I have a 2006 Jamis Ventura Comp with a Compact Crank with 5036 and a 12-25 rear nine speed. Would I benefit from a different gear combo?

I find it odd that a decent Sport class MTB racer would have trouble climbing on the road. Somebody that fit/strong shouldn't necessarily be using a 50/36 with a 12/25. I'm 48 yrs old, a Vets racer and an average climber, and I use a 53/39 with a 12/25 - and will be using an 11/23 this year for most races/competitive rides. I mainly use that 25 for the nasty mile long hill (with several 15%+ grade sections) that I live on.

Something's missing from this picture and I don't quite get it. Is there something you're not telling us about your riding? Let's start with your vital stats: age, height, weight. That might help.

Sounds like the tagline to a Disney movie promotion.

Good point! Maybe we should make a movie based on this thread, call it "Brokebike Mountain".

I find it odd that a decent Sport class MTB racer would have trouble climbing on the road. Somebody that fit/strong shouldn't necessarily be using a 50/36 with a 12/25. I'm 48 yrs old, a Vets racer and an average climber, and I use a 53/39 with a 12/25 - and will be using an 11/23 this year for most races/competitive rides. I mainly use that 25 for the nasty mile long hill (with several 15%+ grade sections) that I live on.


Sure, you can climb that hill in a 39/25 but I doubt you are spinning up it. (I don't know the hill at all but climb similar sounding stuff near me and can't truly spin unless I'm on my 30 ring) If Terry Morse climbs a lot in a 34, then I think most of us can justify the need for at least that small of a ring. I climb a lot in a 42/25 but that's only if the grade stays below 6% or so. Anything steeper and I'd rather drop into the 30 and keep my cadence up than stand up.

you'll like that 27 with the 39. it will make a noticable difference.

I went from a 12-27 (53-39) to a 12-25. I didn't notice that much of a difference.

I find it odd that a decent Sport class MTB racer would have trouble climbing on the road. Somebody that fit/strong shouldn't necessarily be using a 50/36 with a 12/25. I'm 48 yrs old, a Vets racer and an average climber, and I use a 53/39 with a 12/25 - and will be using an 11/23 this year for most races/competitive rides. I mainly use that 25 for the nasty mile long hill (with several 15%+ grade sections) that I live on.

Something's missing from this picture and I don't quite get it. Is there something you're not telling us about your riding? Let's start with your vital stats: age, height, weight. That might help.

Age: 31
Height: 5'8"
Weight: 170 lbs

I think part of the problem is that I havent touched a bike since October either. Since its nearly 5 months sinx I turned pedals, maybe describing myself as a Sport Class rider is a bit of a stretch, since I am only a Sport Class rider in my most fit conditions. If I were to race now, today, I guess I would be closer to a Beginner Class guy.

And the first time I climbed was the first time I rode in 5 months, so maybe I jumped the gun a bit since I dropped on my first two rides after nearly 5 months off on a brand new bike.

I really am a decent climber on my MTB. I can climb as well as all the hammers I ride with, and most of the guys I ride with our Upper Sport Class/ Expert Class riders.

In my first crit this year, I was able to hang on most of the flat stuff and even some of the short rollers on the course, even though I was no where near peak condition. Of course, I did wind up getting pulled but it was my first race EVER on a NEW BIKE and it was RAINING.

get campy legs :p

That must be what I had today on my commute home with 39/23 as my lowest combo. :D

I have a 39/29 on my CF bike which is much lighter than the bike I rode today...I'm actually thinking I have too much climbing gearing on that bike though.

If nothing else, riding the LeMond will make me a better climber.