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My daughter will turn 6 this summer so I’m thinking of putting a child stoker kit on our CoMotion Speedster. I have a few questions before I start shopping:
-Is Burley pretty much the only supplier for child stoker kits or are there other brands to look at?
-What sort of things should I look out for when installing the kit? Any lessons learned from experience?
-What can I do to prevent scratching the paint or denting the tubes on the tandem frame?
Thanks
-murray
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I installed a Burley kit on our Fuji tandem this Winter. Our daughter likes it, and it works slick. Installation was easy, but I'm not sure how to really protect the paint, I'm guessing there will be some scratches when I remove it. Burley sells two sizes, depending on the cranks you have. They also include spacers for different seat tube diameters. I had to grind one of the spacer to fit around a bottle braze on. I think there are a couple other kits available, but the Burley seems like the best value.
John
My daughter will turn 6 this summer so I’m thinking of putting a child stoker kit on our CoMotion Speedster. I have a few questions before I start shopping:
-Is Burley pretty much the only supplier for child stoker kits or are there other brands to look at?
-What sort of things should I look out for when installing the kit? Any lessons learned from experience?
-What can I do to prevent scratching the paint or denting the tubes on the tandem frame?
Thanks
-murray
It's been a long time since I had a kid stoker so I can't address the brands but for the other questions:
Installing: Keep the bolts that hold the stoker crank to the frame tight! You don't want them twisting or else little Sally gets it in the leg! You can try putting a rubber shim between the bracket and the frame but I never had very good luck with that. Just expect to scratch the paint. Think of it as a battle scar.
Get clipless pedals. Kids like to move their feet around otherwise and you don't want them falling off on a fast downhill.
Wrap the left hand chainstay with fabric tape or get a Lizard Skin protector. Kids use the stay to climb into the saddle and they need something to keep their feet from slipping.
Most stoker cockpits are very loooooooooong. Little kids have short arms. Unless you want your child to feel like Superman, get something to extend the stoker bar back towards them. We used an old Scott aero bar for this. Something like this (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=92&subcategory=1180&brand=&sku=2609&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=) might work. If you can get a flatter profile it's better.
If you have a stoker drag brake, move it up front. It's just easier that way.
Get your child a Camelbak! Short arms and tall saddles do not work with water bottles! Kool Aid stains Camelbaks but your kids will love it! (Just make sure you clean the bladder afterwards. Mold is icky!)
And most importantly, be prepared for the time of you life! My kids loved it! My oldest (in college now) was a powerful little rider and my youngest (in high school) love to tell stories. She would keep up a monologue for hours - I miss those days :cry:
And most importantly, be prepared for the time of you life! My kids loved it! My oldest (in college now) was a powerful little rider and my youngest (in high school) love to tell stories. She would keep up a monologue for hours - I miss those days :cry:
Thanks for the advice! I'm really looking forward to doing my evening 20 mile loop with my daughter, plus our weekly club rides and, in a couple years, something like RAGBRAI. She's the whole reason I bought the tandem, though my wife and I have had several good rides.
I had her on a Piccolo last year, but I think she's ready for the tandem.
We just installed a Santana tagged stoker kit. It may very well be a Burley. It went on slick and came with a hard plastic shim that we did not need.
Excellent insights above that I did not know.
Getting an exension long enough is a slight problem right now. Mel at www.tandemseast.com may be able to help you in that department. We will likely mod our setup to account for the shorter arms. We currently use a ControlTech extension with bullhorn bars facing rear.
You will need to decide how high you want to place the crank arms and seat. Higher lets the child see more but makes their movements more noticeable to you. Lower is better for you but more confining for them.
For water bottles I was considering a few mounts from Minoura (http://www.minoura.co.jp/acc-e.html, toward the bottom). They have handlebar and seat mounts that will make the bottles more accessible. I would rather not have the camelbak maintenance chores.
Thanks for the advice! I'm really looking forward to doing my evening 20 mile loop with my daughter, plus our weekly club rides and, in a couple years, something like RAGBRAI. She's the whole reason I bought the tandem, though my wife and I have had several good rides.
I had her on a Piccolo last year, but I think she's ready for the tandem.
To tell you the truth, you are about 2 and a half years behind our curve. We started when my oldest was a month shy of 4 years old.
Just be prepared for your wife to kivetch about how fast you and your daughter are. The next thing you know you'll be pulling a trailer with another kid in it...but that didn't make us any slower ;)
+1 on the speed, just do it out of site of sig. other. Let the kids determine safe max speed married with captains' insight.
Our current max (2 weeks of relatively flat riding) is 31 but they wanted to go faster. But the other day going 17, the trailer peanut gallery said "Could you slow it down up there!". There's always a heckler...
To tell you the truth, you are about 2 and a half years behind our curve. We started when my oldest was a month shy of 4 years old.
Actually, I'll probably have her on the tandem at about 5 3/4 years old. I want to get her on the tandem, but I don't want to push her too fast.
Just be prepared for your wife to kivetch about how fast you and your daughter are. The next thing you know you'll be pulling a trailer with another kid in it...but that didn't make us any slower ;)
It'll probably be a few years before we're faster than my wife. She does 17-18mph on our hilly 20 mile loop by herself. I hated the trailer, it was like a sail. The Piccolo is much better. I'm sure the tandem will be even faster and DD is getting stronger.
-murray
+1 on the speed, just do it out of site of sig. other. Let the kids determine safe max speed married with captains' insight.
Our current max (2 weeks of relatively flat riding) is 31 but they wanted to go faster. But the other day going 17, the trailer peanut gallery said "Could you slow it down up there!". There's always a heckler...
Snail! Turtle! Sloth! Pokey person.
I hit 45 on the hill from Canyon Village in Yellowstone to Norris Geyser Basin when the oldest kid was 4. She decided, half way down the hill, that she wanted to look at the sky and layed down on the rear rack. Made the bike kind of squirrelly ;)
The fastest we ever got was when she was about 6. We were on the MS150 here in Colorado and had to go down a hill on McCaslin Rd. McCaslin, by the way is an old Arapahoe word meaning "big ****ing hills"! We hit at least 60 but I was too busy watching the giant scab that the road had become to pay too much attention to the speedometer. She didn't care, it was thrilling! :eek: :D
Actually, I'll probably have her on the tandem at about 5 3/4 years old. I want to get her on the tandem, but I don't want to push her too fast.
It'll probably be a few years before we're faster than my wife. She does 17-18mph on our hilly 20 mile loop by herself. I hated the trailer, it was like a sail. The Piccolo is much better. I'm sure the tandem will be even faster and DD is getting stronger.
-murray
Wait till that little turbocharger stands up on the pedals and gives you a kick! Then you'll know what fast is ;)
Lol on those speeds!! I would have freaked if mine laid back on the rack. I was getting nervous at 30. The nervousness is our newness plus the idea of what could happen and how quickly. The bike is very stable and I am fairly comfortable on it. I can't wait to get to those speeds but I don't think I will be doing that with the trailer. I had a truck and trailer experiences where the tongue was slightly underloaded and that tail started wagging the dog. I would not want that to happen in the trailer so I will probably limit it to 35-40 with that train. With just me and the oldest....hmmm. I guess I'll know it when I see it!
I was very surprised at how much power a 6 year old can add to the effort. I really appreciate it when I feel it on the hills.
We just installed a Santana tagged stoker kit. It may very well be a Burley. It went on slick and came with a hard plastic shim that we did not need.
Excellent insights above that I did not know.
Getting an exension long enough is a slight problem right now. Mel at www.tandemseast.com may be able to help you in that department. We will likely mod our setup to account for the shorter arms. We currently use a ControlTech extension with bullhorn bars facing rear.
You will need to decide how high you want to place the crank arms and seat. Higher lets the child see more but makes their movements more noticeable to you. Lower is better for you but more confining for them.
For water bottles I was considering a few mounts from Minoura (http://www.minoura.co.jp/acc-e.html, toward the bottom). They have handlebar and seat mounts that will make the bottles more accessible. I would rather not have the camelbak maintenance chores.
The Camelbak is much easier for a child to master than a water bottle. We had cages and, every so often, they would drop a bottle because they can't hold on to it. With a Camelbak, they could wear it or we would strap it to the aero bar. Camelbak makes a whole lot of smaller sized backpacks now so finding one that fits isn't a problem.
Maintenance isn't that hard unless you put a sugared drink in it. Then you just need to remember to rinse it out well before you put it away.
Lol on those speeds!! I would have freaked if mine laid back on the rack. I was getting nervous at 30. The nervousness is our newness plus the idea of what could happen and how quickly. The bike is very stable and I am fairly comfortable on it. I can't wait to get to those speeds but I don't think I will be doing that with the trailer. I had a truck and trailer experiences where the tongue was slightly underloaded and that tail started wagging the dog. I would not want that to happen in the trailer so I will probably limit it to 35-40 with that train. With just me and the oldest....hmmm. I guess I'll know it when I see it!
I was very surprised at how much power a 6 year old can add to the effort. I really appreciate it when I feel it on the hills.
I had kids 10 years after getting married and nearly 10 years after starting to bicycle seriously. So I had lots of bike handling experience before I got a tandem. I've always been a speed demon on a bike, whether it's on road or off-, so speed didn't bother me. Just go up to your comfort level, remembering that this is a big bike. 60 is very scary by the way.
I love the speed too (I was always a good descender), it's the cargo that gives me pause :). I am sure as we gain experience and the kids age, oldest is 6.5, we will bump the speed up. I think my oldest will be a speed demon too. The wife will suffer through some of the descents but she won't want to push it, lol.
I love the speed too (I was always a good descender), it's the cargo that gives me pause :). I am sure as we gain experience and the kids age, oldest is 6.5, we will bump the speed up. I think my oldest will be a speed demon too. The wife will suffer through some of the descents but she won't want to push it, lol.
We did a 45 mph descent near Taos NM once with my wife as stoker and our oldest daughter in a trailer. The kid was yelling, "Faster! Faster!" and my wife was yelling, "Slow down! We're all going to die!" Somehow, I didn't hear my wife as loud as I heard the kid :D
Get clipless pedals. Kids like to move their feet around otherwise and you don't want them falling off on a fast downhill.
Just thinking about clipless pedals, where do you find them small enough for a 6 yo's feet?
-murray
Just thinking about clipless pedals, where do you find them small enough for a 6 yo's feet?
-murray
Lots of shops have, or at least used to have, bike shoes in incredibly small sizes. I've seen them as small as a European 32. My kids generally used a 34 or 36 (around a ladies size 4). Nashbar even lists women's shoes in size 36, which is pretty small. I usually found them in the bargain bin because no one wanted shoe that small. Just check around, you might be surpised.
We did a 45 mph descent near Taos NM once with my wife as stoker and our oldest daughter in a trailer. The kid was yelling, "Faster! Faster!" and my wife was yelling, "Slow down! We're all going to die!" Somehow, I didn't hear my wife as loud as I heard the kid
I about crapped my pants when I read that. Too darn funny! Glad to hear of your success. I hope to get my kid (who is going to join the world in may) a stoker kit in about 4-5 years.
I second all that is being said about kids and tandems, my 4.5 yo loves the big bike (we ride a triplet) but over the winter have rarely had a rear stoker (my wife doesn't ride in the cold). The two have us have gone 45 down a steep hill; I often am told to slow down, but this is only because the little one is cold. She likes the wind and the speed, just not the cold wind in her face.
On comfort: (referring to laying down on the rear rack), the little one (who is in the middle seat) often puts her hands on the rear handlebars and leans back a bit, or she'll let go all together. On fast decents, she definetly hangs on, and when she stands uphill she will also hang on good. Oh and she also like to give her daddy (me) a little pat on the butt from time to time to let me know she's still there and having fun.
On water: I have modified my camelback. I put a T valve right where the tube comes out of the back and bought some same-size hose from the hardware store. I put the extension on the T and bought an additional bite valve. I run this hose down my back and it rests about at the stoker handelbar. She just leans forward a bit, grabs the hose, and we both drink from the same pack.
On Pedals: we use crankbrothers eggbeaters and love them. Have had no problems.
On shoes: I found 33's (model: Sportitrac) from Specialized from their online shop for $20. They are way to big, but they actually hold her feet pretty well due to their padding. She wanted to try them even though they are too big. I put the cleats all the way back and gave it a test run and she loved them. So much better than the straps and clips.
Have a blast, we've put lots of miles on this winter and gearing up for the bike across kansas this summer. Exercising and having fun together is so awesome
Great info. I guess a camelbak is in my future. I am not quite picturing how you all are attaching it to the bike, anyone have a picture? I like the T joint idea.
I agree on the cold, we went out in 30+ weather the other day and I was asked to slow down. Have not yet found good small kids gloves.
We seriously need a triplet but it would have to be S&S coupled so I could get it around. We just can't foot that kind of bill right now. When is the next powerball?
I have kept the kids in the clips but based on your experiences I may up them to clipless. I have decided on Time ATAC Z's for our pedals. I like the lateral float, larger platform and the low profile cleat they offer.
Thanks for the info on the kids shoes.
I would recommend platform pedals for kids. Kids like to fidgit, take their feet off the pedals, and run around at playgrounds and other stopping points. They're not going to fall off, and if they do it's probably better to fall "clean" rather than while half attached to a pedal. Plus they grow out of shoes way too fast. Their regular tennies will do fine.
I don't like Camelbacks. However, I installed a set of bottles behind my seatpost as seen here (http://www.mgagnon.net/velo/pedalier4.en.shtml).
When all the bottle holders are occupied, my tandem can carry 9 bottles... and I have two more on the Piccolo.
I would recommend platform pedals for kids. Kids like to fidgit, take their feet off the pedals, and run around at playgrounds and other stopping points. They're not going to fall off, and if they do it's probably better to fall "clean" rather than while half attached to a pedal. Plus they grow out of shoes way too fast. Their regular tennies will do fine.
It's a personal preference but the reason I tied their feet to the pedal is because the crankarm and chainring are closer to them then they would be for an adult. Even with clips or clipless pedals, many a shoelace was still sacrificed to the Chain Ring Monster. I didn't what them catching part of their foot in the chain while Daddy was torquing up some hill somewhere.
In a crash (which I never had in 15 years of riding with them), I'd almost want them on the bike sliding with it rather then have the bike slide over them. It's a tough call.
I don't like Camelbacks. However, I installed a set of bottles behind my seatpost as seen here (http://www.mgagnon.net/velo/pedalier4.en.shtml).
When all the bottle holders are occupied, my tandem can carry 9 bottles... and I have two more on the Piccolo.
Some people like Camelbaks and some don't. I don't have a problem with them and think that the benefits outweigh the liabilities. We tried the water bottle thing when my oldest started riding but she just couldn't manage the bottle. My kids were very little (their mother is only 5 feet tall) and their little hands had problems with holding onto a bottle that weighs over a pound. The Camelbak (attached to the bars when they were very little), solved all that. Plus, by packing it with ice and/or filling it with Kool Aid, we could get them to drink more often.
We also live in a very different environment from you, Michel. I've ridden in your neck of the woods (Vermont actually), and your water demands are pretty low, comparatively. Colorado is a very dry state not just because we don't get as much rain but also because of the altitude. This means we have to drink more - Camelbaks are better for that because of their capacity and their convinence - but sweat evaporates faster here so we don't end up with that clammy feeling like you get in the Eastern part of the continent.
Great info. I guess a camelbak is in my future. I am not quite picturing how you all are attaching it to the bike, anyone have a picture? I like the T joint idea.
Thanks for the info on the kids shoes.
It's been so long since I've had kids riding on the back that I don't have pictures but if you were to use something like the Stowaway (http://www.camelbak.com/index.cfm) [edit: the link will only take you to the Camelbak website. The Stowaway is listed under Sports/Recreation. It will take a couple of clicks to find it] or the Unbottle, which don't have straps and an aerobar, you could strap it to the aerobar. I suppose you could also put a Camelbak in a rack trunk and route the hose up to the child. Camelbak sells extender kits which might be better than just Nalgene hose for the hardware store. The Nalgene can have a bad taste, especially when it's been in the sun for a while, and it might not be food grade. The Camelbak hose is a better in that respect.
how old should the child be to be the "back half?"
I don't think there is a hard and fast answer to that. For me it would depend on skill, desire and maturity. Can they pedal, do they want to pedal and do you trust them to not screw around and fall off?
I don't think there is a hard and fast answer to that. For me it would depend on skill, desire and maturity. Can they pedal, do they want to pedal and do you trust them to not screw around and fall off?
I'd agree. It also depends on what you are comfortable with. Are you going to screw around and drop them off. The other half of the equations is your other half. What do they feel comfortable with? If you are far enough out in front, they won't see how stupidly fast you are going so they don't know how much you are endangering their precious offspring;) Kids don't really care. They're in it for the fun anyway.
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