Foo - Is this morally/academically wrong?

Projects in highschool are frequent, and often count for a substantial chunk of ones final grade. Often times, there is an option to create a nice poster.

Well I am nearly finished with my router project, Looking at some good size capacity. Now this makes me think....
SOkme students do not do well in various classes, and projects like posters are always a good opportunity to increase ones grade. I was thinking I could draw peoples posters on my router, completely controlled my a computer. THis would give me almost endless possibilities of how to make this thing. I could have intricate drawings, perfectly straight lines, circles, whatever.

FOr a measly fee of 15 dollars :). I think that a student in real need of a grade boost will pay it.
My question is, do other people see this as wrong, morally or academically?

I don't know who would be stupid enough to pay $15 to have a poster made. But if someone would be willing to pay you, I'd say go for it! Just don't get caught, I'm sure the teachers would not like the idea.

Many students get grounded if they do not achieve a certain grade. If the student is hovering around the F mark, an A poster might be just what is needed to increase that grade, thus about grounding. I think in this situation, a desperate student will pay 15.

Or I could use 1/4" MDF for 5 dollars more.
Then make a sign, "Phantomcow's Underground Poster Making srevice :D

I don't see it as morally wrong as long as they are the ones who come up with the content for the poster.

I would say it was OK as long as the ideas for the poster are of the student you are drawing it for. After all that is how the real world works. Artists work for Advertisers does the mead advertisers are cheating

I don't see it as morally wrong as long as they are the ones who come up with the content for the poster.
That is how it would be. They would give me all of the information, and a good idea of what they want it to look like. I use the GIMP (if I can ever figure that thing out), or Photoshop to draw it. Send them a copy of the Jpeg, they say Yay or Nay and if nay, why not. THen I draw it on paper.
The only time I would find it wrong is if this was for an art student...

Doing another student's work is always academically unacceptable. For the student who accepts the help, that's where the line between being tutored and cheating gets crossed. This includes indirectly doing a student's work, such as looking over a student's homework for the sole purpose of highlighting the incorrect answers. (That's double checking the work on behalf of the other student.)

Cue EJ123 posting about how he wouldn't want to be my student in the future... ;)

I guess I'll clarify some. If you're helping with formating, that's fine. But if you're making the formating decisions for the student, that is not okay. If a student could not honestly acknowledge to the teacher that someone else helped with the parts where the student received help and still receive the same grade, then the student cheated. If the student got help that can be explained to a teacher without consequence (not that it would require such explanation), then it's not cheating.

Doing another student's work is always academically unacceptable. For the student who accepts the help, that's where the line between being tutored and cheating gets crossed. This includes indirectly doing a student's work, such as looking over a student's homework for the sole purpose of highlighting the incorrect answers. (That's double checking the work on behalf of the other student.)

Cue EJ123 posting about how he wouldn't want to be my student in the future... ;)

jeez, I wouldnt want to be your student in the future!

jeez, I wouldnt want to be your student in the future!

You only have a right to that which you've earned. Grades included. Tough, honest, and good teachers are worth their weight in gold.

sounds fine, as long as all you're doing is providing the router service. They should come up with the design, and optimally, learn how to run the router (note that I don't suggest you let them do it...)

And yes, they would pay $15. I know people that paid a lot more than that for essays. I was offered $80 to write a kids' essay once, it meant the difference between F and C. I didn't write it, but I proofread it for $5. Hey, a guy's gotta eat - besides, the kid passed.

Wouldn't teachers start getting suspicious? I mean, if a buch of not so great (no offense) students start turning in these perfect posters (i would assume they would have some similarites) wouldn't teachers start to notice a trend?

I don't see it as morally wrong as long as they are the ones who come up with the content for the poster.

Agreed, but talk it over with the teacher's involved, just in case. There is a little bit to be said for the student putting in their own effort artistically. The teacher's goals in allowing a student to make up credit with a poster is probably largely motivated by getting the student to do some research and learn something on their own, but it may also be a sneaky way to get the student to spend some genuine time on a class-related activity, in vain hope they may realize school isn't all bad.

They also have the option of taking a file down to kinko's and paying a couple bucks for a color large format print-out. You're not alone in the market.

You only have a right to that which you've earned. Grades included. Tough, honest, and good teachers are worth their weight in gold.

Cast iron...

I was kind of hoping someone would get the joke with out a smiley. But I guess not. It was a joke. I know about that. trust me.

I was kind of hoping someone would get the joke with out a smiley.
So you will be my student after all? See you in class Monday! :)

You only have a right to that which you've earned. Grades included. Tough, honest, and good teachers are worth their weight in gold.

I couldn't agree more, as I'm so thankful that I had teachers who pushed me--both in high school and college/graduate school. I never had a teacher ever give me a bad grade. I was given the grades I deserved. Even then, I was shown a lot of mercy and got grades higher than what I should have.

of course it is!!! for some strange reason these people will become doctors because in highschool you do his/her poster :D what kind of doctor cant do posters! :D

I don't see it as morally wrong as long as they are the ones who come up with the content for the poster.

+1. It's not much different than them taking it down to Kinkos...

I wouldn't do it. Getting caught will not be worth the $30-$45 you'll make.

+1. It's not much different than them taking it down to Kinkos...


If they're paying somebody at Kinkos to draw their posters for them, that's wrong too. And I'd bet it's in violation of the code of ethics at the school... If all they're doing is paying for printing service, that's fine.

I think if the teacher knows and agrees it's okay....like someone said, it's like Kinkos. If your work in any was changes the grade they would have gotten for that specific task, it's very very wrong.

You already know the answer to your question. If you didn't see it as 'wrong' in some way, you wouldn't be asking us.

If you can assure that you won't get burnt if/when someone gets caught and rats you out (c'mon, anyone who pays for a grade isn't going to be the most honorable in a situation like that), then go for it. But charge $50. More for a rush job.

Otherwise, it's not worth it. Something like that will go on your transcript and will make it difficult to get into the school you want.

Its probably morally and academically wrong. But there are thousands of things in this world that we say are "okay" or are "right" that are. Its your butt that gets in trouble if you get caught or somebody gets unhappy and then finks on you :)

When I just read the first post my knee jerk answer was yes it is wrong. But reading more I surely hope it is not a problem at all. It seems wrong to me that a student will get a better grade on a science or history project because they have the art skills to make a pretty poster. It also seems wrong that they will get a better grade bacause they can pay for the help to make a pretty poster.

So (excluding art classes as already mentioned) I would have no moral issue with this. You are just providing packaging.

You might want to draw up a one page contract sheet documenting what you provide making it clear you ONLY help them put their design and idea on paper. Then also include a line saying that it is their responsibility to determine if this kind of help is allowable in their class. This will server to protect you if the line gets crossed and also to protect your customers if questions get asked and they have in fact not done anything the teacher would object to.

But if a student wouldn't get a better grade because the poster's pretty, why would a student contact phantomcow2 for services? Why would this appear to be a potential means of making a quick buck if it would make no difference to the person who would have to pony up?

phantomcow2, regardless of how you feel about it, I'm with explody pup in that you should consider also how your teachers might react if they found out. Whether or not they're right and whether or not you actually did anything wrong, they're the ones writing your college application recommendations. Is the risk worth the small amount of money you might pocket? I still stand by my earlier responses, but if you're going to proceed, definitely make sure it's worth your while. Pocket change isn't worth the risks (obvious and subtle) that you take on. If you do it, charge a lot more than $15. (Also consider... how much are you really making per hour on such a job, including all the time courting customers, exchanging e-mails, and what not? Most any part-time job probably is more lucrative.)

Poster, like a big poster on the wall...being equal to a project? Seriously. The only thing I can relate to from my school was verbal exams could be replaced by essays of equal value. Both being equal work...poster seems like a bit of a cop-out

What are you talking about Maelstrop. Schools are a cop-out now a days :p

That is how it would be. They would give me all of the information, and a good idea of what they want it to look like. I use the GIMP (if I can ever figure that thing out), or Photoshop to draw it. Send them a copy of the Jpeg, they say Yay or Nay and if nay, why not. THen I draw it on paper.
The only time I would find it wrong is if this was for an art student...

Think of it this way...

Would you consider it academically wrong if someone charged a fee to write a paper for an english class based on the criteria given by the teacher and information from a student? I don't see it as any different. Even if it were done for free, I don't think it's any different. If it's your artwork, you approve of letting them use your artwork, (even if it's their idea) and they put their name on it, it's plagiarism plain and simple. If you were to get caught, you yourself could potentially recieve consequences for effectively selling school work as well as the students potentially getting an E.

Something as fantastical as your idea (and I do believe it's a neat idea) would likely have the word spread quickly and eventually get to the teachers.

But if a student wouldn't get a better grade because the poster's pretty, why would a student contact phantomcow2 for services? Why would this appear to be a potential means of making a quick buck if it would make no difference to the person who would have to pony up?

phantomcow2, regardless of how you feel about it, I'm with explody pup in that you should consider also how your teachers might react if they found out. Whether or not they're right and whether or not you actually did anything wrong, they're the ones writing your college application recommendations. Is the risk worth the small amount of money you might pocket? I still stand by my earlier responses, but if you're going to proceed, definitely make sure it's worth your while. Pocket change isn't worth the risks (obvious and subtle) that you take on. If you do it, charge a lot more than $15. (Also consider... how much are you really making per hour on such a job, including all the time courting customers, exchanging e-mails, and what not? Most any part-time job probably is more lucrative.)

js,

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and if I'm off base please forgive me. I remember a bit about you (asking about teaching after your doctorate is done). Add to the your picture and I think there is a good chance you have spent a lot of your school time in honors or at least decent level classes. The unfortunate truth is that in lower level classes one can get a better grade just because the packaging is pretty. In the worst of cases glamor trumps content. If all phantomcow2 is doing is packaging how is it different from going to Kinkos and binding a report with a pretty cover as opposed to stapling the upper left corner, save in degree?

Phantomcow2,

js makes some excellent points. If this is OK then why not go 100% above board. Ask the teachers how they feel about it. Make sure teachers know all you are doing and all that you are willing to do is help with packaging. In short you are just a hired graphic artist, NOT the creative or content person. A lot safer and IF this is OK going that route would allow you to get a lot more customers, perhaps enough to make it worthwhile.

I'm going to take a bit of a risk here and if I'm off base please forgive me. I remember a bit about you (asking about teaching after your doctorate is done). Add to the your picture and I think there is a good chance you have spent a lot of your school time in honors or at least decent level classes. The unfortunate truth is that in lower level classes one can get a better grade just because the packaging is pretty. In the worst of cases glamor trumps content. If all phantomcow2 is doing is packaging how is it different from going to Kinkos and binding a report with a pretty cover as opposed to stapling the upper left corner, save in degree?
You're absolutely right. In class as in real life, presentation is a BIG deal. Low level class, high level class, doesn't matter. I've had TA's comment in writing on how they really liked how their pen's ink flowed so smoothly on the paper I was using. :D I don't believe for a moment that that doesn't affect their perception of the work. (If you think otherwise, imagine the opposite scenario, where their attempts to mark comments were annoyingly difficult. Would that affect how they felt about your work?) The fact that presentation matters is why phantowcow2 has a potential business model and why he's on somewhat dangerous ground.

If phantowcow2 limits his services properly, he's basically doing Kinkos' job. Nothing inherently wrong, in my mind. But he has to be careful because suspicions are readily aroused. And he may or may not get a chance to properly defend himself. His teacher may not engage in the level of discussion we're engaged in here to decide whether something is appropriate. Worst of all, perceptions about character (rightly or wrongly) may not even be stated by the teacher, leaving no chance for any defense. On the other hand, a professional (an individual or a business) helping a student cheat doesn't have to defend himself to the teacher because the professional is not receiving marks from the teacher, and thus has less at risk. (In that case, unlike in phantowcow2's case, the risk is squarely on the shoulders of the student seeking help.)

I think phantomcow2 can potentially engage in the proposed activities in an ethical manner. But I suspect it's not worthwhile at $15 per job because (1) there is some risk of his activities being misunderstood by the teachers and (2) it simply doesn't pay enough per hour anyway. If proceeding, make sure to get a handle on (1), and make sure the reward is sufficient to be worth the effort. $15/hour, then maybe it's worth it if (1) is dealt with. (Doesn't have to be billed per hour. But total pay divided by total time spent on the entire endeavor should be better than what one can get in a part time job. Even at $15/hour, with not all time being billable, most likely, total pay per hour is no more than $10.)

A bit off topic, but keep in mind that one's dealings set a reputation and a precedent for what one's worth. Taking on jobs at cut-rate prices means making a reputation for oneself as a low-cost, cut-rate competitor. Demanding proper compensation for top-notch work means making a reputation for oneself as a pricey service provider (hopefully) worth every last penny. Nowadays, with such thoughts in mind, I do not consult for under $100/hour. Never mind that my grad school stipend is nominally only $15/hour and in reality even lower. Not that I'm suggesting phantowcow2 should bill $100/hour. I started at $10/hour working for a company six years ago. (Still consult for them now in the same capacity.) But phantomcow2 should think carefully about what he's truly worth and charge accordingly.

ok so the whole doing kids homework for money never works out. I was going to make an easy 200$ by doing this kids entire summer biology class for him. (he just had to work out of a book and turn it in when school started).........anyway turned out it was way for work then he said it was going to be and he had no intention of paying me the full amount. So i ended up wasting my time and not getting paid....and he ended up not graduating from highschool. true story

ps this kid probably would not have graduated with or with out my help, this just gave him an excuse.

It is wrong.. let's just start paying off everyone in life who can get us to where we cannot get on our own.

If you have to ask yourself if it might be wrong, you have answered the
question for yourself already.
Also, what if the person pays you and they get a really bad grade ?
The teacher says the poster would have been more suitable if it was
more freeform or primitive ??
Dont get me wrong, as an artist myself you are to be applauded for your
resourcefulness but I believe this application is one you should avoid.

As sad as it is, I've found the amount of work you do as opposed to the quality of the work you do have a greater impact than I think it should in highschool. Maybe not every highschool, but mine at least.
I've seen kids make these giant structures, spend 6 hours, and not have at all a sophisticated understanding of the given topic. Then get a grade which if an outsider saw, he/she would assume this person has an idea of what they talking about.

I believe that first impressions are huge, most people remember first impressions vividly, and can be huge in decision making (grade). Even if a teacher says "I am not grading you on artwork", the poster with the nice neat lines, overally neat appearance, will have a better first impression, and usually impact the grade. I have had one teacher only who I believe this would not have an impact.

So I think that with my service, I will give students that helpful boost. There are some very artistic kids in my class, who will in doubtedly have the ability to make a better poster than my computerized system, but it will take them several hours as opposed to 20 minutes for me.
What I intended this to be was like, what another poster compared this possible service of mine to Kinkos.

I would love to charge more, but I sitll have to keep in mind these are highschool students. I'm not able to charge 50 dollars per hour (although I think the product will look that good!), people just won't pay it and don't have the money. I think that limiting myself to the few who do have the money to pay it leaves me with less cash than opening myself up to the mass.

There are some good comments in here, I love to read them. :)

As sad as it is, I've found the amount of work you do as opposed to the quality of the work you do have a greater impact than I think it should in highschool. Maybe not every highschool, but mine at least.
I've seen kids make these giant structures, spend 6 hours, and not have at all a sophisticated understanding of the given topic. Then get a grade which if an outsider saw, he/she would assume this person has an idea of what they talking about.

I believe that first impressions are huge, most people remember first impressions vividly, and can be huge in decision making (grade). Even if a teacher says "I am not grading you on artwork", the poster with the nice neat lines, overally neat appearance, will have a better first impression, and usually impact the grade. I have had one teacher only who I believe this would not have an impact.

So I think that with my service, I will give students that helpful boost. There are some very artistic kids in my class, who will in doubtedly have the ability to make a better poster than my computerized system, but it will take them several hours as opposed to 20 minutes for me.
What I intended this to be was like, what another poster compared this possible service of mine to Kinkos.

I would love to charge more, but I sitll have to keep in mind these are highschool students. I'm not able to charge 50 dollars per hour (although I think the product will look that good!), people just won't pay it and don't have the money. I think that limiting myself to the few who do have the money to pay it leaves me with less cash than opening myself up to the mass.

There are some good comments in here, I love to read them. :)
You are not doing those students a favor by "charging them" less.. not only are you making money out of them but you are helping in not having them understand what it takes in life to make it. We all have our own expectations to meet in life, expectations that differs from boss to boss, employment to employment..understanding and meeting those expectations is part of being successful.

although the teachers may not be so happy if they find out I don´t really see that any particular moral issues are involved here. Life is tough and we all use what natural advantages we have to try and level the playing field. Most of us this forum are already ahead of the pack by not living in a poor (developing country). Why don´t we ask someone who does if it would be OK to have someone help with their poster (which is more like simply typing up someones work than doing it all for them) if it means the difference between getting a qualification that would enable them to have a decent life and not. Moralising over such trivia is to my mind just a luxury.

Life in any case isn´t fair. Why should someone do better at school just because they happen to revise the right subject before the exam, or are better looking than me and preferred by the teachers or even because they are cleverer than me. Life isn´t just about stuffing you head with facts or working out logic puzzles or drawing pretty posters. Also using initiative is important by for example realising that ones poster drawing skills are suboptimal and that you could use some help.

I personally have never gone quietly into the bottom of the pile without at least putting up a fight and doing whatever I can to maximise my chances and I never will.

As mentioned before, the attainment of a higher state of enlightenment
and education has other stuff that goes along with it above and beyond the
task at hand.
Your cause is noble but people who rely on other people to do their
stuff are the people who are going to supremely piss you off later on in life at
your job or personally. In the long run you really are not helping them by helping
them if that makes sense. I might offer them verbal advice on the use of
Drafting snakes and huge French curves to clean up there artwork but I wouldnt
actually do it. Or, maybe even suggesting a poster might NOT be the best method
for getting a good grade on the project.
In the meantime, keep your imagination working OT on the ways you can use
your mad skillage just like you are now.

I dont contribute to your threads much but I always read them. I have a Son
in his Freshman year and some of the stuff you put here is stuff I hear from him
too.
When I was younger we ahd to do 3 thumbnail sketches a day for art class.
I did them for friends and then it went on to people who I didnt even know.
Knowing my artwork, the art teacher wouldnt accept anything that looked like
my drawing from other people in the class. I was glad in a way because she put
an end to something that spiraled way out-of-hand for me but other teenaged
angst arose along the way....Another time I did a cut-away view of an eyeball
for a mid-term project and the health teacher who thought I was a burn-out,
wack job wouldnt accept it because there was no way a loser such as me could
ever do something like that and I got an 'F' on the assignment.
I had to have my parents call over and assure the hating healthie that I sat at
the dining room table every night for a week getting it handled. She then gave
me an 'A' but there was more drama than I like before getting it settled.

All this is the main reason I put so much emphasis on testing!

Phantomcow - just be sure you read the academic standards policy at your school before you try this; I know my high school would have chucked a student who tried this kind of thing out on his butt, with black marks on the transcript that would have made college very difficult. I imagine it would be viewed as equivalent to selling other students term papers...

Phantomcow - just be sure you read the academic standards policy at your school before you try this; I know my high school would have chucked a student who tried this kind of thing out on his butt, with black marks on the transcript that would have made college very difficult. I imagine it would be viewed as equivalent to selling other students term papers...
Agreed! If there is any doubt about whether you are taking on any risks, do not do it! It is not worth risking your future (no matter how small a perceived risk) to make what ultimately is a rather small amount of money. (How much do you think you'll make? Ten jobs is $150. That will pay for perhaps two days of college.) It sounds like you've made up your mind about whether it's okay, though, so I won't argue that point further.

As for whether it's better to do it for cheap, no way. You might rake in more this way, but you'll be working far harder for it. And this small venture, assuming you proceed with it, sets a tone for how you want to compete in the future. If someone with the means to pay comes to you next year with an important task that they really need your help for, what kind of precedent do you want to set for what your time is worth? If the quality of your work really is worth $50/hour, then charge $50/hour. (But is it really worth that? Or is there someone out there who would do the same quality job for $30/hour? $20?) I also highly recommend not charging a flat rate if you're working for cheap. Since you are asking the client's feedback, a flat rate with such a low rate puts you at serious risk of putting in far more time than anticipated without getting proper compensation for that time.

One last point. Your grades are decent, but not exactly flawless. If you help "the masses", is there any risk that what you're doing would bump a few students' college applications above yours, putting your own college applications at risk? Is that really worth the small amount you'd be making?

Figure out your priorities. Put a value to your goals and to your time. If you're going to do this, make sure you're not compromising more important priorities and goals, and make sure it's a good use of your time.

Anyway, I've said enough in this thread. Good luck with your decision making.

I wouldnt do someone elses work even if they paid me 50 bucks.

WEll I've made my decision.
I will not be producing posters. Thankyou Jschen and others for bringing up points I had not thought about :).
Instead I will produce things like
Wood, acrylic, wax, butterboard, or MDF parts.
Engravings
PCB milling services. With the size I have, I could crank out over 50 reasonable size boards at once.
Here is an example of what another person did with their DIY router:
http://home.comcast.net/~phantomcow3/Jr_.jpg
I would be able to achieve this level of intricate detail no problem. I think this would generate more $ on my end than a poster. And there is no school to say nay :D

Woah thats cool!

WEll I've made my decision...
I admit I'm a bit surprised by your decision, but I'm glad to hear you've given it careful thought. If you had proceeded, that would have been fine, but with careful consideration. It's more the careful consideration that I'm glad to see than it is your end decision. I think you can do better than making $15 posters, though.

The sample you showed of what can be done is really cool. Assuming your artistic skills are anywhere close to that person's, I could imagine asking you for some help down the line. And I definitely would pay far better than you could ever hope to make nickel and dime-ing your friends.

What are you talking about Maelstrop. Schools are a cop-out now a days :p

Whos maelstrop ahahha