Mountain Biking - Full-suspension (FS) vs. Hardtail (HT)

After reading the article of Roland Green winning a World Cup race on a full suspension rig I wanted to dredge up the old arguments once again. Which do you prefer, F.S. or HT? and why?

It seems like full suspension designs are getting better with each passing year and the weight has dropped considerably for the XC models. It seems like more and more Pros are now using them for races. So what's your take on this?

I'm a big fan of full suspension bikes. The weight of my bike is comparable to a hardtail and it keeps you from getting too beat up on the trail. This helps you conserve energy when you are on a long ride or during a race. Now I know that a FS bike will cost you much more than a comparable HT but I rather pay a little extra to have the advantages of full suspension. Plus the prices of quality FS bikes are coming down.

So what do you think? Flame away....

My observations:
Wednesday I rode with some guys who were recreational riders, combining a quick 10-miler with apre's bike beers. I was the only hard tail in the group of 8 or so. Did a lot of waiting for these guys on climbs, but they smoked me on the downhill.

On Sunday I went out for a "casual" ride with some racers. We did about 23 miles of mostly single track. Only two full suspensions with the racers, about 6 hard tails (two singlespeeds). Skill level and athleticism was way above the other group. (I got spanked thoroughly!).

Proves absolutely nothing, just my observation from last week. As I generally don't like having to do more maintenance than necessary, and I lock my bike outside the office. I am leaning at a hard tail for my next ride. But, will seriously look at the full-suspensions for the reasons Joe offered.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, where I ride is extremely rough. (rocks, roots, etc.) And I've talked to guys who ride hardtails and they even say it's rough on them. If the trails you ride aren't like that it might not make much difference. But personally I like the FS.
I would like to hear, (not being a smart-alec) but I seriously would like to hear what the advantages are of a hardtail. I know a lot of people ride them and would like to know why. (In case my wife ever lets me buy another bike.) ;)

Well advantage number one is there is no pedal induced bobbing on a climb. I have never been on a FS rig that does not do this other than the ones you can lock out. Advantage nuber two is cost. You can get a much higher quality hardtail for the same price as an FS rig. Advantage number three is maintainance. Advantage number four and this is an opinion is stability on single track.

I'm with Hunter on this one...

I think there's a certain amount of fun that a FS rig takes out of the ride...yeah, you could probably go faster downhill, and longer on all day rides, but you'd miss the hard buzz and vibe of the trails your riding and the satisfaction that you've done it un-suspended. In a sence I'm doing that on a HT, but to a lesser extent.

I'm still seriously considering a rigid bike again just to get back to that retro bike feeling.

Call me old fashioned. I'm not against FS bikes, I think they're great...but ride a HT and a FS bike on the same trail, then tell me which was the purer sensation.

Rich

XC hardtails have definitely come down in price and weight. I'd have to say one of my biggest reasons for not riding one is paying a lot more for a bike that will require more maintenance.

The Gary Fisher Sugars look sweet though (no pun intended)

Originally posted by riderx
XC hardtails have definitely come down in price and weight. I'd have to say one of my biggest reasons for not riding one is paying a lot more for a bike that will require more maintenance.)

Me confused now......

Did you mistype or did I misread? Are you talking about F.S. bikes dropping in price and weight?

Originally posted by Rich

Call me old fashioned. I'm not against FS bikes, I think they're great...but ride a HT and a FS bike on the same trail, then tell me which was the purer sensation.

Rich

I can understand you sentiments on this one Rich, but I love the feeling of flying down a trail on a FS rig. It's like your surfing the trail.

I do agree that the main drawback to FS bikes right now is price. Eventhough prices have come down, you can still get better parts on a comparably priced HT. Still, designs have gotten much better and most good designs have very little pedal induced bobbing, especially the short travel XC bikes. As far as maintenance, there really isn't that much more to do on a FS than a HT. My bike is single pivot so that my have something to do with it. Also, I do have a lockout on my front fork and rear shock if I want to make my bike completely rigid on a climb but I use it very little. My bike only has three inches of travel in the back so it doesn't really bob that much.

I guess I'm a technogeek when it comes to bikes. Some people like singlespeeds and totally rigid bikes for their simplicity but I must admit that I like all of the latest gadgets.

I'm not anti HT. I own one which I still ride often but I just love the way my FS bike rides.

CP

Originally posted by dirtsqueezer


Me confused now......

Did you mistype or did I misread? Are you talking about F.S. bikes dropping in price and weight?

DS - I mistyped. I meant to say FS bikes have come down in price and weight. Please ignore my stupidity!

Hi Joe,

Fair play my friend...as long as we're riding eh!!! :)

Here's to summertime :beer:

Rich

I ride a hardtail for two reasons. First one being that I don't want to spend the money to get a good FS and secondly I use my bike for commuting. So for me, a hardtail is a much better all around bike. If I were riding purely off road, I would probably get a FS. I have a friend who has a FS and uses it mostly around town and he says he loves it as a commuter. Needless to say he jumps every stairs and retaining wall in sight.

HI
I just have a HT and not a FS, so I can't shout my mouth off to anyone. I race XC on it and the majority of the guys and girls prefer these as they have the advantage of being lighter and nimbler. All the courses that I have ridden over here have been very rough and very sandy and hard tails have come through with ease.

Whatever is your cup of tea I suppose.....:)

Anyone know if AMP is still making bikes? They had a small but fiercely loyal following a few year's back. Saw an AMP last Sunday and it jolted my memory. :cool:

Originally posted by dirtsqueezer
Anyone know if AMP is still making bikes? They had a small but fiercely loyal following a few year's back. Saw an AMP last Sunday and it jolted my memory. :cool:
Check this out Dirtsqueezer.
http://www.amp-research.com/products/Mountain_Bikes/mountain_bikes.htm

That's a good question Dirt...I thought they had stopped producing bikes. The Amps were way ahead of their time. It's amazing how many new suspension bikes today use the Amp design.

The downfall was that they were under built and were always breaking down. Too bad. Great bikes....

Going back to using HTs for racing vs FS. Giant timed their riders around the courses using both the HT bikes and their full-suspension bikes and their riders were actually going faster on the full-suspension bikes. Many of the Pros are now using F.S. bikes. The C-dale team uses the Scapel, most of the riders on the Gary Fisher team use the Sugar, the Trek team is using the Fuel, same with the Giant Team and GT, and so on.

In fact, Roland Green won a World Cup race on a Fuel.

I know, I know...now I sounds like a preacher.:p

The main thing is ride what you're comfortable with and just ride!!! I'll see you on the trail.

Egad, they have joined forces with Mercedes Benz? I'm trying to come up with a witty quip here, but words fail me. I had lusted at the AMP's big time in '96 - and still like their fork design.

O.K. Full Suspension riders I can't see myself going to the local Mercedes dealer to swing a bike deal, point me in the direction of a couple bikes that will make me a believer. To keep it interesting can we keep the MSRP below $1,500?

For $1500 you have a whole slew of suspension bike to choose from.

The Gary Fisher Sugar3, the Trek Fuel, you have the Giant NRS,
The specialized FSX XC and many more to choose. The ones I've mentioned above all have received great reviews from the Mags and in MTBR.

Joe - you are one step ahead of me!

the rest deleted since Joe is answering my questions faster than I can post!

Yeah Dirt. Those bikes that I've mentioned come in different price levels and they do have models for around $1500. Are you looking for a short travel XC bike or more of a Free ride model?

Pardon my ignorance, Free Ride?

I ride XC mostly, climbing is my strength, lack of guts (trust)on the downhill my weakness. Really don't want to sacrifice climbing rigidity.

Dirt...Freeride is a passe term used by the bike companies a couple of years ago to describe long travel full-suspension bikes.

All the bikes that I mentioned above are short travel XC bikes that rock. You won't be losing much on the climbs with those bikes. In fact I feel that you can climb steep slopes easier on a F.S. because the back end digs down into the dirt...

Thanks for the info on Free Ride - short travel xc is what I'd look at.

Question on climbs - with a FS bike, if you are seated while climbing, wouldn't you be dampening your efforts as part of your pedal stroke goes into compressing and relaxing the suspension?

I've climbed on a friends AMP and felt that sensation where the back tire is biting very aggressively. Interesting.

Dirt, climbing on a full susp. bike takes a little different technique than HT. It's usually best to climb seated and have a smooth pedal stroke. Coming from a HT at first it will feel like you are bouncing your way up but once you get used to the FS and develop a smooth pedaling stroke this will go away. After all we are talking about bikes that only have 2 to 3 inches of travel in the back. If you prefer, you may even be able to find a bike with a lockout.

Okay, Okay... So what is the final word? Are Full suspensions good for racing or not? I'm getting more confused every time I come on this site. I'm about to get a bike for the first time and I don't have a clue which one to get.. I'm thinking of the Fuel 90 or the 8000.. anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks:)

The final word? We haven't even started in on Aluminum vs steel vs composite yet :p

Trek'n please clarify - about to grab your first bike and looking for a race compatable setup Do I have that correct? Cool - I like that!

If so, I'd point to a hard tail just based on ease of maintenance - get a season or so under your belt and you'll have a much better idea of what you want. Any way you do it, if you get into racing, the first bike you buy won't be the one that satisfies you after a season or so.

My $0.02

Trekn - I have to agree w/ DS when he says you after a season or 2 you will be looking for another bike.

If you are just getting started, I wouldn't recommend a FS for cost reasons alone. Look for a good solid bike in your price range. Check MTBR.com for reviews on hundreds of bikes by people who actually purchased them. After deciding on a couple that seem to fit your bill, I would recommend trying to find a used one first. A lot of people buy nice bikes, ride them around the neighborhood a few times and then let them collect dust. You can find nice bikes that haven't even touched the dirt. Check the classifieds and pawnshops (they aren't what the used to be!!!). Don't purchase a used bike that looks like it's been ridden a lot unless you have someone knowledgable that can look at it with you. Good luck.

DS and Rider made very excellent points. I wouldn't pay an exorbitant amount of money for your first bike. Wait until you've ridden for a couple of seasons, then you'll know what you really want and what type of riding you'll be doing.

I love my F.S. rig but my first bike was a hardtail which I rode for three seasons before buying my Full-susp bike. After riding my HT for a few years then I was ready to upgrade and knew what type of bike I really wanted.

Finally some good advice.Thank You guys. But the thing is that I found a place where they sell the Trek Fuel 90 for 1399. which is a very good price. everywhere else it's going for 1599+. I thought for the extra few hundred over the Trek 8000 it was a good deal but am I ready for a FS?

My advice: Since it sounds like you've got the money, spend $800 - $1000 on a decent hardtail and save the diff. between that and the $1400 you were ready to lay out, and bank that as a base to start saving for you next ride. This is your first bike and you are going to be hard on it, don't overspend at this point. You can honestly get an nice entry level bike for $600 - 800 that can be everything you need for your first couple of years of riding. You get a lot for your money these days. Bikes in this price range would have gone for several hundred dollars more a few years back for the quality and technology they are offering.

Originally posted by Joe Pozer
Dirt...Freeride is a passe term used by the bike companies a couple of years ago to describe long travel full-suspension bikes.


well....not exactly. its still a term used widely, and is in fact getting a huge following........marzocchi really started the whole free ride thing with their bomber line of forks. free ride bikes can easily include hard tails with 4"+ travel on the front, not just LT FS bikes. i would say free riding is somewhere in between XC and DH, its basically for goin for stuff....10' drops, crazy slopes, etc but its still includes many elements of XC riding.



oh...and as for the HT vs FS thing....i would choose HT. my bike is a 96 gary fisher HKEK, massively upgraded....one being a z3 LT up front. now this bike is perfect, i can soak up anything that would bug me otherwise but still feel the trail under me. i can sense when or when not to go for it easier, i know if im hopping a tough log if i can make it or if ill bail. FS is real nice to just fly down the hills(hey...i own one), but HT gives a much more gratifying and real experience.

I know this may be off topic but I found you guys to be the most hardcore into it. Anyways I wanna know which helmet is the best. Which brand is the "coolest" I'm not all about looking cool and all that. But as a retired skateboarder of 10 years. I wouldnt wanna buy poser sh*t...you know what I mean....anyone have any suggestions??

I think all the major brands are good--they all have to pass certain tests, though I don't know what the standards are right now.

Probably the most important factor is fit, and the different helmets vary a whole lot in how they will fit an individual head. I would suggest trying as many kinds as you can till you find one that fits comfortably snug before it's strapped on.

And you probably already know that the helmet should be worn level on the head, not tipped back like you see in so many advertising photos (for non-helmet products) and illustrations. This means the front of the helmet is well down on forehead. That's the only way you get full protection.

Bike shops will often deeply discount helmets that are last year's model, just like bikes!

There's so many out there that's a hard call Trekn. I personally don't like the visors on helmets. Maybe on the road where the sun's always on you but in the woods I just don't see the need. Looks like most are removable now anyway. I have a Bell Envy Pro (yellow). I really like the way it fits and feels. Not sure if they make it anymore but the Fusion Series looks pretty good. Good Luck! Ain't bike shopping fun? :D
http://www.bellbikehelmets.com/ds-envy.jpg

Link to Bell Helmets (http://bellbikehelmets.com)

I've always thought the Bell helmets looked the best of any. A friend of mine likes his very much. I might get a Bell next time I need a helmet, which may not be too long....

right now im using a louis garneau alien helmet. the best part of it? the spiderlock mechanism.....your head gets literally sucked into the helmet for an awesome fit. cool thing is, if you want a different helmet the spiderlock thingy is available after market.

in any case, its just a matter of quallity, and comfort.....test em out and see what feels right.

oh and dirtgrinder: i was also of the opinion that visors where useless for the trail, not so anymore. ive been using mine lately and have noticed that a lot of branches have been averted from my face by the visor. seriously...try it out on some bushy trails, it helps. plus i would assume it would shed rain away(slightly). and i personally think it looks good:)

Originally posted by biztyke
right now im using a louis garneau alien helmet. the best part of it? the spiderlock mechanism.....your head gets literally sucked into the helmet for an awesome fit. cool thing is, if you want a different helmet the spiderlock thingy is available after market.


Now you've roused my curiosity! Your description makes me flash on the well-known and loved image of the Black Widow scooping up her tiny mate and devouring him!

Guess where I'm going after this Bike Forums session? To search for the Garneau helmets on the Web (! Web--spiders--too scary) and find out more.

P. S. If I'm not back tomorrow, call Orkin....

biztyke has it right about the web lock on the helmet. I'm using a Bell w/ the same type of system (headlock?) and I know Giro makes a similar system. It makes for a much more comfortable and secure fit. I think most of the major brands are using them. Do some searching, Nashbar and those places are always closing out medium - high end helmets for pretty good prices.

Man, you guys rock. I just posted this last night and you guys got back to me already. This is the best Bike Forum around. Anyways thanks for the info. I'm obviously new at this and I need all the help I can get. I figured, Okay I'm too old for skateboarding now, and I need to do something extreme and fun. So I thought MTBing would be the best. I think I'm really going to love it. Dirtgrinder, your helmet looks sweet. I will probably get one of those.. a nice black one..

Just like everyone said before, a priority in choosing a helmet is fit, if it don't fit, it won't stay put when you need it most. Bell, Giro, Specialized,...etc. all make great helmets that fit great and look good. I personally like "the look" of a visor, it cuts down on the "dork" factor. But with that, some of the new helmets w/o visors look very cool, i.e. Giro Pneumo. Although it ain't cheap $150-160.

BTW since I brought up price, the difference between a $40 and a $150 helmet is only the # of vents and the air-flow across the head. Which will actually protect better, probably the $40 helmet, there is a lot more actual helmet there.

Also remember, a helmet is designed to break. That's what they do, they absorb the impact, so you're head doesn't. Don't ever buy a used helmet unless you know it's never been crashed, or abused, or left in the car in the summer for 2 weeks....etc. Back to my point, once a helmet is crashed hard, or cracks, throw it away. If you can remember your name and how much you paid for it, then it's done it's job, go get another one. Also, I recommend a new helmet every couple of years if not crashed. Sometimes you don't see the damage underneath the plastic shell and I personally don't want to chance it.

What else, most companies offer "crash replacement" discounts on damaged helmets. If you send them the damaged helmet, it gives them an opportunity to see how to make the new ones better, that and you get some $ back towards the purchase of a new helmet.

Later Gator
Boomer:crash:

One more thing, try out different brand helmets before making a purchase. Each manufacturer seems to fit slightly different from each other. I'm partial to Bell because their helmets seem to fit me better than Giro's. Try them out and see which one fits you the best.


and with this post I've reached 200!! Thank you, Thank you very much....Elvis has left the building

vfboomer - I have a "Saved by the Bell" certificate form Bell helmets. Got it by sending back my Bell helmet that I split down the middle. Sent me a new $90 helmet for $30 w/ the crash replacement program.

How did you split your helmet down the middle?

I safely visited the Louis Garneau website and read about the Spiderlock feature. It sounds like a very good idea! Glad to know other companies are doing similar things.... On my next helmet that's one thing I'll consider.

Originally posted by Joe Pozer
How did you split your helmet down the middle?

I knew someone would ask that!

Picture this:
Familiar trail; fast, tight, twisty single track; newly fallen tree horizontal across trail just above eye level (enter warning about visor here); round turn in trail; hit tree with head (never even saw it); break helmet; hear neck crunch with an ugly sound; feel completely dazed for a couple of minutes; get back on and continue ride.

Lesson:
Look up once in a while, even when you know the trail like the back of your hand.

This thread sure has morphed a couple of times since it has started!

Because this is the thread to be in!

Trekn - I think you are just posting to get one step closer to full member status! ;)

Yeah, we have gone on a tangent here. I almost forgot why I started here. I'm currently riding a hardtail again, after about 2 years on FS. Why? I liked the paint scheme. No really, that and it was a great deal. For the type of riding I prefer (though don't do enough of) I think I'll go back to FS. I'm not joe-racer, though I do race ever so often. I just like to go ride and have fun. You can take this sport too seriously, yes you can get a 21 lb hardtail with all titanium bolts and full XTR, but personally I don't have an unlimited budget and I hate breaking parts out on the trail. I like the simplicity of a hardtail, but if you ride for longer than a couple hours, the FS makes sense. It's more comfortable, and will sometimes saves you when your concentration wanders. Unless you're thinking of racing the NORBA National series, go FS. The weight penalty is not an issue, just don't eat that extra slice of pizza and those last two beers the night before. I would however spend enough to get shocks with lockout levers. Those long climbs are tedious enough.

Just my thoughts on the "original" subject.

Later Gator
Boomer:beer:

Originally posted by riderx
I knew someone would ask that!

Of course...Inquiring minds want to know...:D

Ouch Rider...You were very lucky not to have gotten a full concussion. Who know how long you would've been lying there. I've also nailed my head against a low lying branch that caught me off guard. Not as hard as you hit your head but it stung nonetheless. This is when I decided that I needed to start looking farther up the trail instead of right in front of my wheel.

Yes, this thread has morphed into several topics. We better becareful or this could turn into an ugly SPAM thread.

Hey Boomer...I've ridden in Florida and a full-susp bike there is not a bad idea. While there are no very long climbs the trails are typical East Coast, very rocky with lots of roots.