Training & Nutrition - Heart vs leg muscles

Okay, I've notice some things on my rides now that I have my heart monitor working.

When I measure how fast I can ride, I mostly base it on the first 11.1 miles of the trip - 3.5 miles up and down hills and the rest pretty flat.

I started riding 4 years and one month ago (at the age of almost 53).

On my first bike, the best time I ever did was 41:02 on a trek comfort bike. Also, the route I took back then was a bit longer and probably less efficient too (I think 11.9 miles) after 8.5 months and around 3000 miles of work.

My second bike was a Bianchi Volpe touring bike. This almost immediately reduced my best time by a hair over 2 minutes. Eventually I got the best time down to 36:50 (18.04 mph) after 4 more months. But after that, in spite of accumulating over 11,000 miles on these first two bikes in 2 years 1 month, I never broke the record again. In fact, I went through a period where I seemed to be getting slower! I started taking a vitamin/mineral supplement which seemed to help, but I didn't set any new records.

Then two years ago, I got a Felt F-35 racing bike. I immediately set new records and every time I really pushed hard, I would be a little over 18 mph. After 2.5 months, I set my last record (34:41 / 19.19 mph).

I have since ridden for another year and 9 months without coming close to that time (and remember that while that was a faster speed, part of the time improvement was because of a couple route changes which eventually changed the distance from 11.9 miles to 11.1).

The only big change in equipment I've made has been with tires. It came with Hutchinson Carbon Comps - pretty light, but after several sets, I gave up on them because they got too many flats. I've since used Conti 4-seasons, Conti 3000, Conti ultra-gatorskin, and presently the new, relatively light weight Armadillo Elites (255 grams).

I've put in a LOT of miles - over 15,500 just on the newest bike in 25 months and over 26,000 since I started 4+ years ago.

I've changed from riding about 12.5 miles before stopping for breakfast, resting 2-3 hours (mostly before eating), and then riding 13.5 miles home (taking it easy going back usually) to riding 36 to 55 miles before breakfast, resting, then the 13.5 miles home.

So, after that long intro, I don't understand why I can't get faster in all this time! My max HR is 183. On the past couple rides, it seems to mostly center around 145, getting higher on those hills if I push it as I did. But after about 9 miles, I'll start seeing the HR dropping below 140 most of the time and after another mile or so, I'll see more and more in the 120's.

I'm not winded, but my muscles just don't seem to want to be pushed harder. Occasionally I try to kick it up, but I run out of strength pretty quick. Generally the rest of my ride (these two had about 37 before breakfast) tends to have the HR running between 110-125 with occasional fluctuations higher.

I have found, on the rare occasions where I have another cyclist pass me that if I try to catch up to them, I can usually at least keep up and maintain that for a couple miles - I assume because of an adrenalin kick, but even after that, I tend to be able to cruise at a faster pace than before the informal "competition".

So, why can't I get faster after all that work?

I've considered that doing so many long rides usually every other day leads me to develop a pattern of being slower so I don't run out of energy. Many of my rides were over 70 miles and over an 11 week period, almost all of them were 63 miles or more.

In other words, have I trained my muscles to be "slow"?

A friend I ride with often who has ridden less than two years is darn fast. Granted, he is just 23, but can push it at 35 mph on flats almost any time he wants to for a least a short distance. He recommends I climb lots of tough hills (which he does a LOT of). I am trying to do one extra/steeper hill each ride. I've also just started to try to take every hill more aggressively (usually on a steep hill, I just take my time, but I thought that might be part of my problem).

Anyway, he thinks I need more strength so the hills would help. The strength thing makes some sense to me because while my HR isn't all that high after 9 miles and I'm not having any trouble breathing, I just don't seem to have the strength to kick up the speed more.

All this is making me frustrated. Plateaus are one thing, but this is ridiculous.

Wow, I know this wont help but be damn proud of what you have accomplished already. Awesome job. :)

I don't have anywhere close to the number of miles that you have, but it could be that you're under-recovered. If you're putting lots and lots of miles without rest, you may not be giving your body enough time to recover.

Have you thought about spending some money on some coaching?

Wow, I know this wont help but be damn proud of what you have accomplished already. Awesome job. :)

Well, yeah, it is nice to be able to go out every other day and do a half-century and consider that to be an "easy" day - at least compared to doing 63-75, but this lack of speed progress is making it too much work and less fun, especially when other people who are doing a lot less riding than me seem to improve more.

I don't have anywhere close to the number of miles that you have, but it could be that you're under-recovered. If you're putting lots and lots of miles without rest, you may not be giving your body enough time to recover.

Have you thought about spending some money on some coaching?

That is a possibility and one of the reasons after making my goal for my fourth year I made a few adjustments. First, I basically only do 50-52 miles. Second, for several weeks I cut down to just 3 days a week so that sometimes I'd have 2 rest days. But while I'll back to every other day again, we had so much rain this week, today was the first day I've ridden following 3 days of rest!

I figured the change may not be sufficient, but I also figured if riding too far and too often was a problem, I should at least see some improvement. Well, if I did, it wasn't by much and certainly not consistent enough to really know.

Oh, one thing I left out. Not only have I not been able to get back to old speeds, but over the past year or so, a fair amount of the roads in that first 11 miles have been nicely paved which used to be a little rough (not terrible, but certainly not smooth enough for good efficiency). I'd say that there were roughly 4 miles or so of so-so road surface and they repaved over two miles of that. So even if I didn't improve, I should still make better time.

I've considered cutting down more for awhile - maybe do about 20 miles before breakfast (34 total). Instead of 37. That should mean less recovery would be needed. But I kinda hate to reduce my average miles since I'm off to such a good start this year.

As for a coach, well, no. Couldn't afford it and I'm not looking at racing - I just think with all the riding I do, I should be getting faster.

So le'me get this straight and at the risk of bringing on a severe flame-job directed solely at me. (Please don't shoot the messenger) You are 57 years young and although you are training quite intensely, you can't figure out why you can't keep up with your 23 year old ride bud, is that basically the question?

Well bub, your training efforts are commendable if not outstanding, but I am 52 years young and I'm gonna break the news to ya gently.

YOU AND ME ARE GETTING OLD!

The law of "Diminishing Returns" is in effect. Get used to it. You (and me) ain't 19 anymore. :eek:

I returned to cycling last year after a twenty year hiatus. I did not train as intensely as you I admit. However, I did a respectable 6,000kls. most on hi-way. A Century ride and a dozen or more Metric Centuries plus I purchased an indoor trainer and road 500+kls., have a basement Weider weight machine and used it, plus I joined a gym over the winter and I am still averaging 3 hours there, 4 to 6 times per week. To make comparison matters worse, I still have the bike I road when I was 30, although it was just upgraded from a 6 spd./dbl. to a modern 10 spd./trpl. specs.

Today I had that same bike out for a 75 kl. hard ride and it was busting my b@lls. Sure, I was fast today, but twenty years back I can clearly recall tossing that bike around under me like a toy and charging down the road. Not today. Those 30 degree plus hills will not be climbed by me with reckless abandon any more. :rolleyes:

I admire your competitive spirit and commitment to improve yourself, but in noway do I mean to be critical whatsoever, in any way shape or form. As a matter of fact, carry on. All I'm saying is that the results we achieved as younger men, may not be the reward we get today, regardless of the effort and discipline we put into our physical well being.

I think we need to come to terms with this and accept the fact that we are not getting any younger and to accept the physical realities that more closely reflect our age.

Baby BOOMER'S, the generation that never got old.

All the best with your physical conditioning.

here I go again with another lengthy post....

Before I start, I am a licensed Nurse Practitioner.


I see multiple problems with your routine if building endurance is your goal...IF you posted accurately.

first and foremost, you have to respect the fact that as you age, your muscles take longer to recouperate after strenuous activity. Producing glucose (a sugar that is stored in the muscles) takes time. As we age, it takes longer and longer for this process to take place.

Second, you are going about the process of endurance building the wrong way. YES, you can train your muscles to 'be slow'. A more proper medical way of putting it is that your are working ONLY your slow-twitch muscle fibers by riding the way you do. For short sprints or bursts of power, you must also train your fast-twitch fibers. You train them exactly the way you use them. If you want to train your fast-twitch muscles, you ride in a low gear, pedaling very quickly...or lift relatively light weights quickly.

By constantly doing only endurance-distance riding at endurance pace, you have effectively neglected your fast-twitch fibers...which is why you are having problems with sprinting.

Most people think of their muscles as one organ. They are actually composed of many different fillaments, and these fillaments are either fast or slow twitch. So basically, you have two different types of muscle tissue in every muscle.

You should train at 80% of your max heart rate for increasing aerobic capacity. It sounds like you are overdoing it, then backing way off because you wear yourself out. This pattern does nothing for boosting your aerobic capacity.

You must first determine your resting and max heart rates. If you are older, or have problems, BEWARE. We don't want you having a heart attack. Then, you ride at a sustained rate of 80% max rate for 20-30 minutes to if you are already semi-fit.

The key that you are missing is recouperation time. You simply arent allowing your muscles to fully heal and replenish their glucose stores before you run them dry again. After age 30 or so, most people (and I mean like 90% or better) need at least 1 full day to fully recouperate.

Your muscles grow not by adding more muscle fibers, but by adding more activation sites on a given number of muscle fibers. This causes the fibers themselves to swell, which makes the muscles bigger. You are born with a set number of actin and myosin fillaments, and you will die with the same number...they are only replaced (to a limited degree) in the case of injury. Muscles cannot regenerate themselves like skin cells can.

Just remember these things if you are trying in boost your endurance:

REST for a day inbetween rides
DRINK plenty of WATER. Not gatorade...WATER
EAT lots of protein and complex carbs
WORK at 80% max heart rate...then cool-down at 50%

Side note: If you go past the 80%, you are forcing your muscles to work in a condition known as "Anaerobic metabolism" which is MUCH less effective than working them aerobically. Too much anaerobic activity can actually REVERSE any gains you may be seeking, which is exactly what I think you are doing wrong.

I,m pushing on a bit and treat my Max HR as 165- will still see 175 occcasionally but there has to be a good reason to push this hard.

I use the HRM to keep myself at around 140 to 145 as my working rate. Hill arrives and I get to 150 and longer hills 155. 155 and I am just beginning to feel the effort after about 5 minutes and at 150 I just feel out of breath.

My problem is in warm up. Run up to 120 for about a mile or so- then first slope I go to 135, and I am breathing hard.Get back down to 120 and I then push on the next slope to 140ish, then back down to 120. then finally I push up to 150 and them relax to 130. Then I can go to 140/145 with comfort.
If I do not do that warm up and the first hill arrives- I will be dead at 140, and spend the rest of the ride below par.
On the legs- they only start burning at 165 after a few minutes exertion. Don't feel tired, but after the burn- it is relax time till they feel ok.

I have been riding enough years to realise when I have to slow down on a ride, but do not try to stay with the youngsters. They are too fit. Training---- Try a bit of Interval trainng. Get a slope of say 200yds and go for it. Sprint that 200 and slow down-5 miles later do it again. If no slope then two markers about the same distance apart. Try 3 on a 20 mile ride till you can recover quickly and then do 5 and no more. This will improve the speed, but as we get older we do slow down. That is when sense takes over and we ride more comfortably, but can do longer distances.

Read the articles at this link
http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm

I think you will begin to understand what is going on. Especially read "Understanding Interval Training".

In a nutshell, when you get fitter roughly 2 things happen:

1. Your cardio system (heart etc) gets fit, ie is capable of transporting a lot more oxygen.
2. Your muscles grow and capillaries develop to deliver all that oxygen.

Problem is, #2 happens a lot slower than #1 so you can easily get a scenario where your cardio system works really well but the muscles are trailing behind. So you don't run out of breath but your legs run out of puff. This is also demonstrated by a very fit runner getting on a bike for the first time - after 5 minutes of climbing he's ready to hurl his breakfast despite being very fit. It's because his musles aren't trained to cycle.

Read the articles at this link
http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm

I think you will begin to understand what is going on. Especially read "Understanding Interval Training".

In a nutshell, when you get fitter roughly 2 things happen:

1. Your cardio system (heart etc) gets fit, ie is capable of transporting a lot more oxygen.
2. Your muscles grow and capillaries develop to deliver all that oxygen.

Problem is, #2 happens a lot slower than #1 so you can easily get a scenario where your cardio system works really well but the muscles are trailing behind. So you don't run out of breath but your legs run out of puff. This is also demonstrated by a very fit runner getting on a bike for the first time - after 5 minutes of climbing he's ready to hurl his breakfast despite being very fit. It's because his musles aren't trained to cycle.

I wonder how fast #2 happens, or how slow. A year, two years?

Blood vessels and capilaries are slower to develop within muscle tissue because the muscle tissue is very dense and tough.

The rate at which you can expect gains varies widely on factors such as your genetics, the amount of time you rest in between hard rides, nutrition, etc.

In my professional opinion (as both an N.P. and an old-school MTB'er) I would say your muscles lag behind your cardio by a good 4-6 weeks at least.

Cardio fitness is actually MUCH more complex than the original poster says. It consists of many things, such as the strength of the myocardium itself, the level or amount of erythrocytes in the blood, the number and capacity of blood vessels and capillaries, etc etc

All these things take TIME, which is why resting is so important.

When I measure how fast I can ride, I mostly base it on the first 11.1 miles of the trip - 3.5 miles up and down hills and the rest pretty flat.

I've changed from riding about 12.5 miles before stopping for breakfast, resting 2-3 hours (mostly before eating), and then riding 13.5 miles home (taking it easy going back usually) to riding 36 to 55 miles before breakfast, resting, then the 13.5 miles home.


I'm suprised no one has commented on this, or maybe I am misunderstanding your post.

How can you time yourself in the first 11 miles of your ride? Where is your warmup? It takes me 20-30 min to even get warmed up, and I stop and stretch once after about 15 min. No matter how fit you are, you need to take it easy at first to get those muscles loosened up and the cardio system working.

Secondly, your post claims you ride BEFORE breakfast. I hope you do not ride on an empty stomach? For 36-55 miles??? Then you rest BEFORE you eat? That cannot be right. Where is your fuel coming from? You have to get fuel to your muscles, before and after a ride, without delay.

Again, if I am misunderstanding your post I apologize, but if I understand it correctly, this is not a training issue, but a simple lack of food. You are starving your muscles.

yeah, I missed the part about riding before breakfast. Not a good idea.

Oh, I am well aware of the age issue. I keep telling my friend that he can't expect me to do what he does - like riding for miles at 27 mph! I think my very fastest speed on a flat road (with a little wind help) was 28 and that lasted for about 1 second!.

But what I would like to do, and based on what I've seen posted by other older riders and talking to people, I think should be possible is:

Do my first 11 miles at AT LEAST 15 mph without feeling like I'm pushing hard.

Do those same miles while pushing hard (but not max effort) at 18 consistently.

And at a maximum effort, pass 20.

I'd also like to climb hills faster. Climbing more hills and steeper hills hasn't seemed to translate into climbing my normal hills faster. So I'm guessing I need to deliberately be more aggressive on the hill training, not just do more and harder ones.

For example, I climb a section of Diamond Head and if I just take a comfortable pace (not that it is all that "confortable"!), I still find myself going 5.7-8 mph on most of the hill - same as a year or more ago at the same effort.

So I'm not looking to ride like the young folks, especially since I'm not training like a racer would. I just want to see some speed improvement as well as carry speed for a longer time. Nothing huge, just not me in a danged rut and certainly not seem to be slowing down yet!

> here I go again with another lengthy post.... <

I like those - you saw mine to start this thread!

> I see multiple problems with your routine if building endurance is your goal...IF you posted accurately. <

Well, endurance in the sense of carrying speed longer, but actually my prime goal is to see some sort of speed improvement over the initial 11 miles.

> You train them exactly the way you use them. If you want to train your fast-twitch muscles, you ride in a low gear, pedaling very quickly...or lift relatively light weights quickly. <

I'd say when I'm pushing even a little on the flats, my cadence is probably 85-95 (lately my cadence function rarely works). When taking my time, but not really beat, it will tend to be 80-85 I guess.

> which is why you are having problems with sprinting. <

Let me make sure I understand this. To me, sprinting is a pretty darn short burst, well under a mile. I want to be faster over a distance of 11 miles at least.

> You should train at 80% of your max heart rate for increasing aerobic capacity. <

As I mentioned, my highest HR was 183, for just a moment, so I guess 80% would be 146 so I'm averaging that for the first 8-9 miles if I'm trying to go fast.

> It sounds like you are overdoing it, then backing way off because you wear yourself out. <

Not quite. If I'm going for speed, I always go for it for 11 miles so, after 9 miles the drop to below 140 and then below 130 for the last mile isn't me backing off - it's just not having the muscles able to keep it up, though I'm not winded. After 11 miles, I do tend to back off - for one thing, it is hard to go fast through Waikiki because of all the traffic lights!

> This pattern does nothing for boosting your aerobic capacity. <

Oops! (grin) But is it aerobic capacity that is the problem? This is something I may not understand. I always thought that aerobic capacity had to do with avoiding the burn - but even when I'm running out of steam, I can go faster and not burn - but I'm just too tired to do it more than a few secondis (unless there is a psychological issue here).

> You must first determine your resting and max heart rates. <

Well, I just checked after sitting here for awhile and it is 54 resting. It is sometimes lower, but sometimes a little higher. Before taking up biking (I was pretty much a couch potato), it was in the upper 70's or lower 80's. Again, I maxed at 183 once.

> Then, you ride at a sustained rate of 80% max rate for 20-30 minutes to if you are already semi-fit. <

We'll, 9 miles riding fast (for me) tends to take me about 33 minutes and it is right after that that it HR starts dropping.

> After age 30 or so, most people (and I mean like 90% or better) need at least 1 full day to fully recouperate. <

I almost never ride two days in a row. Normal pattern is every other day. I started riding twice a week, then 3 and eventually got to 5, but generally I was only riding 26 miles with a a 60-120 minute rest in the middle of it. I also only pushed really hard on the days following a rest day. But now it is every other day, but I ride much further.

> Your muscles grow not by adding more muscle fibers, but by adding more activation sites on a given number of muscle fibers. This causes the fibers themselves to swell, which makes the muscles bigger. You are born with a set number of actin and myosin fillaments, and you will die with the same number...they are only replaced (to a limited degree) in the case of injury. Muscles cannot regenerate themselves like skin cells can. <

Wow, I never knew that!

> REST for a day inbetween rides <

Already do.

> DRINK plenty of WATER. Not gatorade...WATER <

Hmmmm, I drink water, but never though about how much of it I drink. I know on rides I rarely get thirsty. I drink at a fountain at 18 miles and again on the return at about 30 miles or so. But it isn't a lot - it is more a matter of drinking I figure I should, not because I feel thirsty. Now, if I do something like push myself up a big hill, then I drink!

> EAT lots of protein and complex carbs <

Well, I'm definitely a meat eater. I like steak and chicken paricularly and fish when I can get to a place that serves it. I try to eat pasta more than I normally would - spaghetti/lasagna type stuff. I also like breads. Several days a week for breakfast (after the first part of my ride) I'll have scrambled eggs, half a bagle with cream cheese, some bacon, a SMALL portion of grilled potatos, a little fruit.

> WORK at 80% max heart rate...then cool-down at 50% <

I'm a little confused. You mentioned earlier that I was overdoing it (where I was doing 9 miles averaging 146 which is 80%) and then backing way off, but what you wrote above would have me still doing the same pace to start, but backing off even more (down to 92).

> Side note: If you go past the 80%, you are forcing your muscles to work in a condition known as "Anaerobic metabolism" which is MUCH less effective than working them aerobically. Too much anaerobic activity can actually REVERSE any gains you may be seeking, which is exactly what I think you are doing wrong. <

So, even though I'm generally running at an 80% average (146) for the first 9 miles and almost always over 140, I would be going over 150 when dealing with the little hills I have for the first 3 miles. Is that the problem? Because the average is correct.

> Try a bit of Interval trainng. Get a slope of say 200yds and go for it. Sprint that 200 and slow down-5 miles later do it again. If no slope then two markers about the same distance apart. Try 3 on a 20 mile ride till you can recover quickly and then do 5 and no more. <

I've been told and read a lot of different thinks about intervals. For example, one approach was to go all out for as long as you could (for me 45 secs or, if lucky, 60), then recover just long enough to catch your breath but not really recover otherwise, then repeat a couple more times.

Another was to go all-out, but recover for about 4 minutes. I think another was to max out for 30 seconds, recover for 60, repeat till you have done 4-5 of these, then rest for 5 minutes and repeat the process again.

But I can tell you, I really hate intervals. I seem to have a block about putting myself through that much suffering, though I've done it some. Maybe that is why I'm not improving. There is a spot just 1.19 miles from where I start which I remember at one point I could do on a max effort in 3:50 (that was my slowest of my top 12 rides). I did it once in 3:34. Well, I don't think I've done better than 4 minutes in the past couple years! That's a big difference over such a short distance. I often wonder if the problem is mental - that I'm holding back a little to avoid the pain.

Okay, I can see the problem with capillaries developing slower, but it still seems to me that I should see definite improvement over 2 years! I've hit plenty of plateaus since I took up riding, but that seems way too long, especially since I don't seem to be able to even do what I did before, when it comes to speed. Distance is definitely better.

> How can you time yourself in the first 11 miles of your ride? Where is your warmup? It takes me 20-30 min to even get warmed up <

Warm-up? Well, I don't really warm-up. Never have. But while I can see that as a problem, it still seems to me that I should have improvement - after all, it isn't like I used to warm-up and now I don't.

I also happen to live in a location where a warm-up is a bit tricky because no matter where I go, I have to deal with hills right away and even if I take my time on them, they stress me even in the lowest gear I have (39/27). In other words, it isn't like I can just cruise for while. I've also found that when I deliberately take rides at an easy pace, I end up feeling tired anyway since it takes more time to cover that distance.

> Secondly, your post claims you ride BEFORE breakfast. I hope you do not ride on an empty stomach? For 36-55 miles??? Then you rest BEFORE you eat? That cannot be right. Where is your fuel coming from? You have to get fuel to your muscles, before and after a ride, without delay. <

Well, here is the pattern (two actually, since it has changed) once I started riding in the morning. Eating much of anything before leaving (around 7:00 AM) would mess up my digestion and I wouldn't feel good during the ride. I would ride 12.4 miles and then stop at a restaurant for breakfast. That took about 30 minutes and then I would spend time on the beach (I'm in Hawaii). Then I would ride home.

But traffic here is a bear. Eventually I found the only way to avoid some really bad situations was to leave home no later than 4:00 AM (usually 3:30). The same ride would get me to the beach restaurant 2.5 hours before they opened, so I rested until they did, ate, then ride home. If I didn't have to work (I work part time), I might stay at the beach a little longer first.

Little by little, I started riding even earlier as I would ride further. For over two months I was generally out the door by 1:00 AM and doing those 50 mile distances before breakfast. I would eat something before leaving - half a bagel, some cereal right out of the box. I also took a gel or two and a power bar with me. Usually took the first gel at about 15 miles. The power bar varied between 18-25 miles. Keep in mind that on these early rides, I was leaving closer to the prior day's last meal - I just had to go to sleep earlier. Anyway, this would get me to the beach restaurant between 5:30-6:00 so I had to wait at least an hour for it to open. But I enjoy the relaxation time.

Now I'm generally out the door by 2:00 AM since I'm not riding quite as far. I know eating first would be good and I try to do some, but feeling bad on the trip by eating very much isn't a good solution either!

> Again, if I am misunderstanding your post I apologize, but if I understand it correctly, this is not a training issue, but a simple lack of food. You are starving your muscles. <

Maybe, but only if, over time, those longer rides before eating is the problem - since I start out the same as always and maybe better since it isn't as far away from my last meal the night before.

I hadn't considered the possibility that the longer rides may have been slowly weakening me because of the timing of my breakfast. I was always focused on the fact that the first part of the ride was still the same (okay, so I missed what should have been obvious!).

So, if that is it, I guess the question is what can I eat before I leave that won't leave me feeling bad during the ride. It would, I think, have to be something that gives a lot of what I need in a small portion.

But I can tell you, I really hate intervals. I seem to have a block about putting myself through that much suffering, though I've done it some. Maybe that is why I'm not improving. There is a spot just 1.19 miles from where I start which I remember at one point I could do on a max effort in 3:50 (that was my slowest of my top 12 rides). I did it once in 3:34. Well, I don't think I've done better than 4 minutes in the past couple years! That's a big difference over such a short distance. I often wonder if the problem is mental - that I'm holding back a little to avoid the pain.

This is why you are not getting faster. If you spend all your time riding at 17 mph, you will continue to ride at 17 mph. If you want to ride at 19 mph, you need to ride faster than 19 mph....and this is where interval training comes in. I would suggest purchasing an indoor trainer if you don't already have one (I know, I know....blasphemy on a tropical island) so that you can concentrate on them in a structured and controlled environment. Pick up a DVD or two of interval workouts to get a feel for them....many people like Spinervals and the Carmichael Training Systems series - I like the CTS videos personally. Do them 1-2 days per week, and allow yourself to recover properly.

I would also suggest perhaps lifting weights; as you get older, muscle breaks down quicker and more easily.....essentially, you lose it. Weighlifting helps to slow the process down slightly.

Good luck. If you do them right, intervals will make you faster and a stronger rider.

I thought about a trainer a couple years ago to deal with times the rain messed up my riding schedule. But either I've been lucky the past couple years or riding earlier in the morning means less chance of rain because I've only had occasional problems with it.

Also, on an island, space costs money so I have a small apt. I could do it, but I hate to give up the space!

When you go beyond about 80% of your max, lactic acid begins to build up in the muscles faster than it can be removed. Once this process starts, muscle fatigue sets in very quickly.

You can boost your body's efficiency at removing the lactic acid (or lactose as some refer to it) by repeatedly going to about 90% for very short periods of time....then backing off to about 70% to allow the lactose to be removed.

by very short period of time, i'm talking 2-3 min tops. Just remember that if you SUSTAIN an anaerobic state for too long, you will stunt your progress toward increasing your aerobic capacity.

It's a game of give and take. You can do one or the other at one time...not both.

The cool-down period I mentioned should be no longer than 15 minutes or so, and its purpose is to keep blood circulating thru your muscles at a high volume to help 'wash away' any metabolic byproducts. Since it is lower intensity, it keeps the blood going without building up any additional lactose.

It takes time, but eventually your body will actually grow larger and more numerous capillaries in your muscle tissue. This will both increase your aerobic capacity AND increase the tolerance level of lactic acid in your muscles before you start feeling the signs of muscle fatigue.

You are looking to increase overall speed over an 11 mile course. You are in need of balanced training, as I stated before.

Here is specifically what I would do if I were in your situation in detail:

Mondays I would train on a more urban surface like pavement, but I would use the highest gear possible (21st on a 21 speed bike). I would warm up until I reached about 60% max heart rate, then I would really push until I reached 80-85% max. I would then sustain this level for as long as i felt comfortable...then go another 15 minutes. I would slow back down to about 60% max for 15 minutes to allow time for the lactic acid to be flushed away, then repeat the process again. I would then follow it up with a cool-down at 50% on the bike, then a slow walk for another 15 min or so to prevent muscle soreness. Yeah, your legs will ache and you will probably be really winded, but that's the point.

I would go home and eat a balanced meal of about 5oz of lean protein with about 25 gr of complex carbs.

Rest on tuesday.

Wednesday, I would work fast-twitch by going to the roughest patch your can find, using the LOWEST gear your bike has, and working the same pattern of heart rates.

Thursday...rest

Friday I would concentrate on cardio only.

Sat I would ride for fun without paying attention to the heart monitor

Sun - rest

With this plan, you will ALWAYS be working to improve your cardio vascular capacity, but you will be targeting the specific muscle fibers, and therefore boosting your overall performance.

Cardio fitness is composed of a LOT of different elements, which is why you ALWAYS want to work on this. The air sacs in your lungs become larger...the capillaries enlarge, your heart muscle strengthens, your bone marrow produces more red blood cells, your RBC's begin to carry more hemoglobin, etc etc etc.

You should drink so much WATER that it almost is an aggrevation because you have to pee so often. 8oz every 1-1/2 hours if you are seriously training. You should have to pee about every 45min - 1 hour.

Muscles do not 'break down'. You lose activation sites, and the muscle atrophies.

I would get more specific, but its a LOOOOOONG explanation.

Just suffice it to say that you do not lose the muscle fibers themselves.

Follow the plan I outlined, and in 3-6 weeks you should notice a difference.

> When you go beyond about 80% of your max, lactic acid begins to build up in the muscles faster than it can be removed. Once this process starts, muscle fatigue sets in very quickly. <

Ah, so it isn't just about getting a burn - the acid can slow you down without that!

> You can boost your body's efficiency at removing the lactic acid (or lactose as some refer to it) by repeatedly going to about 90% for very short periods of time....then backing off to about 70% to allow the lactose to be removed. <

That would be the interval approach, right? So I should push it up to 165 and then drop to about 129.

> by very short period of time, i'm talking 2-3 min tops. <

I guess that is at a lower effort than I usually do for an interval - don't know the HR (it is usually too dark to see when I ride except for the occasional street light), but the way I have done them in the past, 1 minute is hard to do and each one after than is shorter. Usually I only manage 45 seconds at first.

> The cool-down period I mentioned should be no longer than 15 minutes or so, and its purpose is to keep blood circulating thru your muscles at a high volume to help 'wash away' any metabolic byproducts. Since it is lower intensity, it keeps the blood going without building up any additional lactose. <

Other people telling me about intervals (books too) have referred to doing a series of these bursts - usually about 3 - with not much time in between for partial recovery and then followed by a longer recovery before doing another series (two series max). They say the close repetition trains you body to recover faster and then the longer recovery is to truly recover. Any comments on that?

> I would go home and eat a balanced meal of about 5oz of lean protein with about 25 gr of complex carbs. <

I'm never sure of some of these terms. "Lean" protein would be things like chicken? (as opposed to more fatty meats like beef?). And how do things like peanut butter, which I think has lots of protein, figure in? And what are "complex" carb foods?

> Wednesday, I would work fast-twitch by going to the roughest patch your can find, using the LOWEST gear your bike has, and working the same pattern of heart rates. <

Well, I only have a road bike so rough patches aren't good. Can't go off-road.

I'll work on drinking more water, but from what you describe:

> 8oz every 1-1/2 hours if you are seriously training. <

I may not be too far off - assuming that means when actually riding. If it means even when off the bike, I'm definitely not.

It takes me about 80 minutes most days to get to where I first drink and another 80 minutes to return to that spot to drink again. But I may not be drinking 8 oz, so I'll work on that.

Ill answer you in order of your last post.

1. Yes, lactic acid build up can fatigue your muscles LONG before you actually feel a burning sensation. The burning you feel is because there is already lactic acid built up, and your muscles cannot rid themselves of it fast enough for the level of production.

2. You are trying to train...not give yourself a stroke. Intervals are done in bursts..SHORT bursts.

3. Lean protein is exactly that..lean. Not a lot of fat. I prefer seafood and fish, but I occasionally eat skinless chicken thighs or lean beef. A vegan way to go about it is beans and rice. Lentiles and such like beans provide a full spectrum of amino acids if you couple them with rice. Peanut butter is considered a carb, but it also has a small amount of usable protein. Complex carbs, for a technical definition, are long chains of simple sugars converted to a starchy form by hydrolysis in plants. They yeild more complex sugar molecules through metabolism, which is stored as glucose in your liver and muscle tissues. Simple sugars such as the stuff you add to your coffee, are quickly burned off, and the excess is more readily turned into fat by your body. You want complex carbs like rice, oat bran, etc etc because they are not quickly converted into fat...they are converted into glucose first.

4. The water consumption I listed is for everyday...not just when you are riding. Your body uses a LOT of water in the process of removing those metabolic wastes. You want to make it as easy as possible on your system to get rid of those. Staying hydrated while riding is extremely important...but staying hydrated on your resting days ensures that your muscles can remove wastes and strengthen.

5. 80 minutes is FAAAR too long to go without a drink when you are riding. Even if it's not hot, and even if you aren't riding hard. Part of your problem may actually be hydration. When you start dehydrating (happens LONG before you even start to feel thirsty), your blood thickens and waste products aren't easily flushed from your muscle cells. REALLY REALLY focus on making sure you drink enough.

Hope this helps :)

> I prefer seafood and fish, but I occasionally eat skinless chicken thighs or lean beef. A vegan way to go about it is beans and rice. <

I don't cook normally, but I like fish. Unfortunately, the restaurants where I would want to go are not convenient since I don't have a car. I usually have to make a special trip by bus which takes a lot of time just or one meal - so it is an occastional event. I get fast-food fish sandwiches and tuna sandwiches, but I guess they have their own problems. I like chicken - white meat and don't eat the skin. I'll do chili (canned stuff) with beans at home.

I'm aware I don't eat all that great, but I'm better than I used to be - used to snack on sweets a LOT, but now I often snack on things like Cheerios, wheat chex, corn chex instead. Also, while I still drink soft drinks sometimes when eating out, I drink mostly water at home now.

I started eating more salads the other day - leafy greens mostly, with chicken. How are those things?

Don't care for rice much, though I eat some.

> Peanut butter is considered a carb, but it also has a small amount of usable protein. <

Interesting. When I was a kid, I could swear it was said it had more protein than beef did. Oh well.

> You want complex carbs like rice, oat bran, etc etc because they are not quickly converted into fat...they are converted into glucose first. <

How about potatos? While I don't care much for rice, I do love potatos.

> The water consumption I listed is for everyday <

Then I definitely need to improve on that.

> 80 minutes is FAAAR too long to go without a drink when you are riding. Even if it's not hot, and even if you aren't riding hard. Part of your problem may actually be hydration. <

Okay, though, unless there is a negative effect over time (days and weeks), that shouldn't account for the problems of my first 11 miles simply because I haven't changed that part. If it was bad, it was bad back when I was faster too. But it probably is hurting me on the rest of my ride.

If I don't get rained out, I ride Sunday morning and I'll drink a lot more.

Peanut butter is considered a carb, but it also has a small amount of usable protein.

Complex carbs, for a technical definition, are long chains of simple sugars converted to a starchy form by hydrolysis in plants.

They yeild more complex sugar molecules through metabolism, which is stored as glucose in your liver and muscle tissues.



Peanut butter is mostly fat; the "butter" part is a clue.

Hydrolysis means "water breaking" the reverse of what you are talking about (a dehydration rxn between sugars)

Muscles store glycogen not glucose.

Potatoes are fine...just dont overdo it.

Peanut butter has more protein than beef ounce for ounce, but is composed mostly of amino acids that your body does not use.

Leafy greens are always good. They're a good source of micronutrients that your body needs, especially if you get the organically grown ones.

My preferred snacks are actually very simple. A raw carrot or two, some orange juice concentrate (don't knock it till you've tried it..its like sherbet without the sugar), or chocolate soymilk (8th continent is my favorite brand) with some lowfat cottage cheese.

dont get me wrong, I'm not without my own faults. I have a serious weak spot for Guiness and Sam Adams....and I like dry red wine a lot.

Peanut butter is mostly fat; the "butter" part is a clue.

Hydrolysis means "water breaking" the reverse of what you are talking about (a dehydration rxn between sugars)

Muscles store glycogen not glucose.


Technically you are right. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible. Glycogen IS the sugar stored in muscles, which is converted to glucose. I skipped a step for simplicity's sake.

And yeah, I got the plant part backwards. I'm a nurse practitioner...not a botanist..lmao!

> Peanut butter has more protein than beef ounce for ounce, but is composed mostly of amino acids that your body does not use. <

I usually keep some peanut butter around - for crackers or bread - to use when I have nothing else handy or just want to eat something but not much.

> Leafy greens are always good. <

It is one of the few veggies I can actually enjoy somewhat. As mentioned, bean in chili or BBQ beans I like. FRESH corn on the cob is good too - but I only get that when in farm country. But just about everything else I don't like at all.

> some orange juice concentrate (don't knock it till you've tried it..its like sherbet without the sugar) <

Hey, that's a neat idea! I'll have to try it.

> chocolate soymilk <

I tried that once. Tasted terrible to me.

I don't drink at all. I did try some wine at a special event where they had wine tasting. Told them to give me something a "newbie" might like. Don't know what they gave me, but I didn't see anything to like about it. Must be one of those acquired tastes.

There are a lot of books about coaching and training. Try reading up a bit. Nutrition is important, but i don't think it's your main problem.

Look up "specificity of training." If you want to ride fast, you have to train to ride fast. It sounds like you have been training to ride far, not fast. Basically, I think you want to follow training programs designed for time trials. That is, riding as fast as possible for a given distance, in your case 11 miles. Really, look into it. I think it'll help!

BTW, as a 50 year old, I strongly admire what you've done. It sounds like one key to your success has been setting goals and sticking to them. Keep it up!

Yeah, I kinda got caught up in the "ride further this year than last" thing. And now that I'm off to such a strong start this year (2271 miles so far), I don't really want to fail to set another record - though I am backing off in recent weeks. I mean, I was on pace to easily break 10,000 but I figure it will more likely be something like 9,000 (record is 7755).

So, it is kinda hard to go all out for even 11 miles and then continue on for 50!

I've looked at some training things - notably Carmichael's book. But I look at the training situations and I just don't have them. Like it will talk about so many miles on a fairly flat course for some training. Well, on a volcanic island, there isn't much in the way of miles of flat roads! I have to go over 3 miles just to reach a flat stretch. Then there are all the traffic lights. Occasionally I'll manage to miss almost all of them, but it is pretty hard to do something that is supposed to last, say, 5 minutes, but I will usually be interrupted by a traffic light.

I guess the interval thing is the easiest to fit in since they usually don't last more than 45 seconds if I'm going all out. But as soon as you get to slightly reduced efforts lasting 4-5 minutes, there is that problem again.

As for goals, my main one was to average 15 mph for that first 11 miles with an all-out effort. Really didn't think I'd ever do it, but I'd say I always can now with that kind of effort, but over a year ago, even though I wasn't getting better top speeds, I did get to a point where I could do it on any serious effort, not needing to go all-out. Only a fairly casual cruise may be slower. I was pretty happy about that even though I wasn't getting faster - I liked the consistency of staying over 15. Now it isn't so consistent!

I want 15 mph every time, which means my best times need to be better.

I want hills to not bug me so much - which means faster on them (which should also increase my average speed).

And then the longer I can keep those higher speeds is a bonus.

My fastest, long, solo ride was a roundtrip of a 50-52 miles (I forget exactly) and I averaged 15 mph for the whole thing. Surprised the heck out of me. Love to be able to do that regularly!

Okay, I got to ride with the intention to compare to some past numbers. I didn't try to limit my pushing yet - went pretty hard for the first 12.4 miles (the same distance as I have measured for previous HR tests).

The previous ride which matche the closest (16.0 mph average) happened way back on January 4, 2004. Conditions were similar - mild winds of 3-4 mph. This time was from the SW (my average direction is to the SE) and this last time was from the NNW so that other ride had a small advantage in that aspect.

I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are. I have trouble with my headlight interfering with the HR monitor. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Aluminum foil seems to help the problem, but part way into the ride, it blew off. Since there was sufficient light and I also have a blinking headlight that doesn't interfer, I turned the main light off and watch the numbers - didn't change so I guess I wasn't getting interference at that time. Just before the end of the ride I turned it back on and, sure enough, the numbers started increasing - all the way to 181! So I turned it back off. So, the numbers might not be quite right, but I think they are close.

Anyway, here is how the numbers compare:

..........................2004...........Today
Time:..................46:33..........46:29
Above Zone..........21:01..........13:26
Avg HR (above).......150.............161
In zone (119-156)..26:32..........35:20
Avg HR (in).............149.............145
Below Zone.............0:20.............0:0 (unit was definitely getting interence at the start!)
Avg HR (below)........116.............NA
Overall Avg.............155.............149
Highest HR..............172.............174

I wouldn't trust the highest HR because of periodic interference, but based on numbers I saw over time, these shouldn't be too far off.

Leading up to this ride, I did have a couple changes. My previous ride was Friday (51 miles). That day and Sunday, my biggest meal was a salad from Arby's (mostly lettuce and chicken). They are pretty big and I have to work to finish it. Last night I did eat some pasta - plus a brownie and ice cream! This morning I ate one of those small boxes of raisins before washing up and I made it a point to drink more water then too.

I felt stronger - coincidence for all I know. And not only did I keep a faster HR for the first 9 miles (about 155 average instead of 146, when I did drop, I was still above 140 for awhile. Last couple miles went down a lot though.

I didn't drink on the way, though I should have considering I stopped for traffic lights 6 times (I'm not much for trying to deal with the water bottle while moving), but I just didn't think about it.

The ride overall was short because I ran into rain after that and took a bus home after breakfast. Only did 26 miles rather than 50, but that might be good for now, just to make recovery easier.

Bob

I want hills to not bug me so much - which means faster on them (which should also increase my average speed).
I looked into hill climbing quite a bit for myself, and learned a few things:

* to climb well, you need to have a good power to weight ratio. It doesn't necessarily help to be a muscle man, and it definitely doesn't help to lug too much spare fat up any hill. Imagine putting a 15kg bucket of water on your bike; if you're 15kg overweight, that is what you are doing in effect.

* to climb well, you also need endurance as opposed to sprinting ability. A good-sized climb will be many minutes at least, say 20min, or likely more than an hour of effort. Hill climbing is primarily an endurance effort. Hence the need for endurance capability.

I don't think I saw it in here, but here's something that helps me with intervals - since I believe that's probably the one thing most "rec." riders don't do - even though your distances put you a little out of the "rec rider" category and into the "cycling addict" category.

Today, I was to do 50k "speed" work, but the winds were 18-25kts, and a direct crosswind to my intended route along the coast. I almost canned the ride and hit the rollers because I hate that much headwind. But, my riding buddy said he was still riding, so.... I still rode.

One of the best "interval" workouts is to swap pulls with another rider. It motivates you to keep a pace, to keep going at all, and to kinda push yourself out of what your HRM comfort zone would have told you. Today I probably would have ended up spending a lot of time around the 80% MHR mark if I'd had my druthers. Instead, I logged 15 minutes over LTHR in the ride, on top of 40 minutes in the 88%-94% MHR areas (for me, zone 4 of Friel's LTHR zones).

I have a hard time motivating myself to stay in those range of zones, but when we're taking pulls and I know it's my turn, it's a lot easier to get the motivation.

ok, you want answers ?

be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone



---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.

go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed

the rest of your rides, do what you been doing

---
you will pass out before you die


as an alternative to going bloody all-out ...start doing Hindu squats, or isometric squats
of 1 minute duration, rest 30 secs, do again 5 times...twice a week


cycling faster is about pain. all fast cyclists feel the burn. the pain stays the same,
you just get faster. to me it just sounds like too much number crunching
and not enough raw animal power and pain sessions


you are older. so why not start the day and finish the day with smoothies
like this.

2 bananas
1 scoop whey protein
1 vitamin e 400
1 vitamin c 500
1 aspirin
some coffee grounds (seriously...teaspoon)
1 vitamin a 10,000
1 calcium 400
1 glucosamine 1500
16 oz water
1 flintstones w/iron (or other combo-vitamin-pill)
1 vitamin B-100 complex

chuck all this in a blender, liquify for 3 minutes,
chug it down.

later in the evening, especially after a ride,
make another 2 banana/protein smoothie
just like above, without coffee and only

calcium
B-vitamin complex
glucosamine
1 aspirin


get used to chugging these smoothies and you will
come around and get better guaranteed...if you keep riding.

the glucosamine regimen 2 times a day is pretty key to keeping
your joints feeling fresh so you will desire to pound the pedals harder
day in and day out. the stuff works great. miracle drug really.

Yeah, I kinda got caught up in the "ride further this year than last" thing. And now that I'm off to such a strong start this year (2271 miles so far)

Holy crap. As you mentioned elsewhere in your post, easing up for a week or so would be a good idea. Training includes rest, and you won't get faster without it.

Time to start intervals in the next week or two.

I posted this on another thread but what the heck, why not post it here. Submitted for your consideration, a different approach. Go slow to go fast. Recommended by none other than Mark Allen, and apparently used by Lance at one point...

the basic idea, if you're too lazy to read all this below: slow the hell down. find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). train at that level, and watch yourself gradually improve. add interval training in there as well. Benefits: less pain, still get the gain, less injuries, less burnout, eventually you'll be going just as fast but at that lower effort level...


http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460?


Mark Allen on Heart Rate Training
from Mark Allen
Website: http://www.markallenonline.com/Default.asp?partner=dua on January 7, 2002



Working Your Heart
The secret of training smart

How hard do I have to workout? How far do I have to go? I workout 2 hours every other day of the week and I still can't lose those last 10 pounds. Why do I keep getting injured when I try to run? These are all questions and comments people make about their training that seems to have no simple solution.

I want to give you that solution. It's called a heart rate monitor. Whether your goal is to win a race or just live a long healthy life, using a heart rate monitor is the single most valuable tool you can have in your training arsenal of equipment. And using one in the way I am going to describe will not only help you shed those last few pounds, but will enable you to do it without either killing yourself in training or starving yourself at the dinner table.

I came from a swimming background, which in the 70's and 80's when I competed was a sport that lived by the No Pain, No Gain motto. My coach would give us workouts that were designed to push us to our limit every single day. I would go home dead, sleep as much as I could, then come back the next day for another round of punishing interval sets.

It was all I knew. So when I entered the sport of triathlons in the early 1980's, my mentality was to go as hard as I could at some point in every single workout. And to gauge how fast that might have to be, I looked at how fast the best triathletes were running at the end of the short distance races. Guys like Dave Scott, Scott Tinley and Scott Molina were able to hold close to 5 minute miles for their 10ks after swimming and biking!

So that's what I did. Every run, even the slow ones, for at least one mile, I would try to get close to 5 minute pace. And it worked...sort of. I had some good races the first year or two, but I also suffered from minor injuries and was always feeling one run away from being too burned out to want to continue with my training.

Then came the heart rate monitor. A man named Phil Maffetone, who had done a lot of research with the monitors, contacted me. Phil said that I was doing too much anaerobic training, too much speed work, too many high end/high heart rate sessions. I was forcing my body into a chemistry that only burns carbohydrates for fuel by elevating my heart rate so high each time I went out and ran.

So he told me to go to the track, strap on the heart rate monitor, and keep my heart rate below 155 beats per minute. Maffetone told me below this number that my body would be able to take in enough oxygen to burn fat as the main source of fuel for my muscle to move. I was going to develop my aerobic/fat burning system. What I discovered was a shock.

To keep my heart rate below 155 beats/minute, I had to slow my pace down to an 8:15 mile. That's three minutes/mile SLOWER than I had been trying to hit in every single workout I did! My body just couldn't utilize fat for fuel.

So for the next four months I did exclusively aerobic training keeping my heart rate at or below my maximum aerobic heart rate, using the monitor every single workout. And at the end of that period, my pace at the same heart rate of 155 beats/minute had improved by over a minute. And after nearly a year of doing mostly aerobic training, which by the way was much more comfortable and less taxing than the anaerobic style that I was used to, my pace at 155 beats/minute had improved to a blistering 5:20 mile.

That means that I was now able to burn fat for fuel efficiently enough to hold a pace that a year before was redlining my effort at a maximum heart rate of about 190. I had become an aerobic machine! On top of the speed benefit at lower heart rates, I was no longer feeling like I was ready for an injury the next run I went on, and I was feeling fresh after my workouts instead of being totally exhausted from them.

So let's figure out what heart rate will give you this kind of benefit and improvement. There is a formula that will determine your Maximum Aerobic Heart Rate, which is the maximum heart rate you can go and still burn fat as the main source of energy in your muscles. It is the heart rate that will enable you to recover day to day from your training. It's the maximum heart rate that will help you burn those last few pounds of fat. It is the heart that will build the size of your internal engine so that you have more power to give when you do want to maximize your heart rate in a race situation.

Here is the formula:

Take 180
Subtract your age
Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you:
# If you do no working out subtract another 10 beats
# If you workout 1-2 times a week subtract 5 beats
# If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is.
# If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number.

If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have.

You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. After just a few weeks you should start to see a dramatic improvement in the speed you can go at these lower heart rates.

Over time, however, you will get the maximum benefit possible from doing just aerobic training. At that point, after several months of seeing you pace get faster at your maximum aerobic heart rate, you will begin to slow down. This is the sign that if you want to continue to improve on your speed, it is time to go back to the high end interval anaerobic training one or two days/week. So you will have to go back to the NO Pain, NO Gain credo once again. But this time, your body will be able to handle it. Keep at the intervals and you will see your pace improve once again for a period. But just like the aerobic training, there is a limit to the benefit you will receive from anaerobic/carbohydrate training. At that point, you will see your speed start to slow down again. And that is the signal that it is time to switch back to a strict diet of aerobic/fat burning training.

Keep your interval sessions to around15-30 minutes of hard high heart rate effort total. This means that if you are going to the track to do intervals do about 5k worth of speed during the entire workout. Less than that and the physiological effect is not as great. More than that and you just can't maintain a high enough effort during the workout to maximize our benefit. You want to push your interval making each one a higher level of intensity and effort than the previous one. If you reach a point where you cannot maintain your form any longer, back off the effort or even call it a day. That is all your body has to give.

This is what I did to keep improving for nearly 15 years as a triathlete. It is also the training the Lance Armstrong's coach put him on to recover from his cancer treatment when they saw that he could not handle the high end training anymore. And although it was contrary to what most cyclists do to prepare for the grueling Tour de France, it was what enabled him to capture the title there for the first time in 1999.

Best of luck!

Mark Allen
6 Time Ironman World Champion
Mark Allen coaching services are available at www.markallenonline.com

Jur,

The time on my hills varies based on the hill. Lately I've been focusing on the shortest one because I think part of my problem with climbing speed is that just about any time I do a big hill, I just try to keep moving, but don't try to be aggressive. This particular hill is about 0.8 miles, much of it not real steep (though it has a couple steep sections). Anyway, that is short enough where I can manage to push myself more aggressively. Best time so far is 7:13. If I rode up it like I used to, it would probably take around 9 minutes.

NomadVW:

Yeah, I can see how your approach may help. I do something like that sometimes, but not often. Have to work on that again.

I do, rarely, come across another rider who will pass me (it's after I've already ridden around 30 miles so I'm not going very fast). I'll then try to kick up my speed to match him and usually I can - at least for a little while. So the competitive aspects do help motivate me.

Duplicate - my software didn't show the post was ever sent.

Same problem as mentioned above.

Holy crap. As you mentioned elsewhere in your post, easing up for a week or so would be a good idea. Training includes rest, and you won't get faster without it.

Time to start intervals in the next week or two.

Actually, I did ease up for a couple weeks. Still rode about 50 miles, but only did three rides and stayed off extra hills. Then we've had a lot of rain here lately so I was again back to 3 days, one of which was only about 25 miles. But it may be that I should also reduce the normal distance for awhile.

ok, you want answers ?

be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone



---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.

go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed

the rest of your rides, do what you been doing

---
you will pass out before you die


as an alternative to going bloody all-out ...start doing Hindu squats, or isometric squats
of 1 minute duration, rest 30 secs, do again 5 times...twice a week


cycling faster is about pain. all fast cyclists feel the burn. the pain stays the same,
you just get faster. to me it just sounds like too much number crunching
and not enough raw animal power and pain sessions


you are older. so why not start the day and finish the day with smoothies
like this.

2 bananas
1 scoop whey protein
1 vitamin e 400
1 vitamin c 500
1 aspirin
some coffee grounds (seriously...teaspoon)
1 vitamin a 10,000
1 calcium 400
1 glucosamine 1500
16 oz water
1 flintstones w/iron (or other combo-vitamin-pill)
1 vitamin B-100 complex

chuck all this in a blender, liquify for 3 minutes,
chug it down.

later in the evening, especially after a ride,
make another 2 banana/protein smoothie
just like above, without coffee and only

calcium
B-vitamin complex
glucosamine
1 aspirin


get used to chugging these smoothies and you will
come around and get better guaranteed...if you keep riding.

the glucosamine regimen 2 times a day is pretty key to keeping
your joints feeling fresh so you will desire to pound the pedals harder
day in and day out. the stuff works great. miracle drug really.


Yummy,......coffee .....


Man, I do all that stuff.

Never thought of doing it all at once in a smoothy though.

Why the calcium? (tendinitis probs)

I posted this on another thread but what the heck, why not post it here. Submitted for your consideration, a different approach. Go slow to go fast. Recommended by none other than Mark Allen, and apparently used by Lance at one point...

the basic idea, if you're too lazy to read all this below: slow the hell down. find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). train at that level, and watch yourself gradually improve. add interval training in there as well. Benefits: less pain, still get the gain, less injuries, less burnout, eventually you'll be going just as fast but at that lower effort level...

Has anyone on this forum used this approach successfully?

Very very interesting, though I have a couple questions:

> find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). <

What is "OP"?

Then there is is formula for maximum aerobic heartrate:

> Take 180
> Subtract your age
> Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you: <

That would be 123

I normally ride every other day, presently about 50 miles (was more for the prior few months until the end of February). So, I'm not sure how the following may apply to me:

> # If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is. <

That may fit, but then I'm riding a good distance so I wasn't sure.

> # If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number. <

That would be more days, but what if my miles is more than normal - should I consider this item as applying to me anyway?

> If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have. <

Well, I'm 57 so not 60, but I wonder if this should apply.

> You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. <

I gather maximum aerobic heart rate is NOT the same as when people refer to maximum heart rate? The highest I've ever reached is 183.

One reason I'm kinda wondering about how the numbers should apply to me is that when riding home last time, I noted that during the first 10 miles of that part of the ride (this way preceded by 38 miles, first 13 averaging 146 bpm, and then a 90 minutes rest and 30 minutes for breakfast), I was averaging 131 - all pretty flat. I wasn't pushing aggressively but I also wasn't really taking it easy either.

I'm just wondering if the 123 that the above formula results in is appropriate.

> Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. <

So I should mostly do that, but also do some intervals (which I interprete as short rides at much higher levels, repeated a few times)?

ok, you want answers ?

be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone

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I suggest
drop all the number counting.

go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed

the rest of your rides, do what you been doing

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Seems I'm getting opposing views (work harder vs back off). I suspect both work for different things or different times.

But I specifically made note of your smoothie recipe. Thanks.

Both! Work hard, but once a week. Recover well, and do your distance at a low HR. At least that's my take on it. Then peak at the right time, and do it all over again.

Last fall I noticed that my legs gave out before I hit my max HR. I did a lot of intervals, still didn't hit my max HR but my resting HR dropped about 10 BPM.

Would like some clarification on this:

Based on an article posted by someone, it talked about doing a lot of training at Maximum Aerobic Heartrate which, according to the formula given, would be 123 beats/minute. It also said this would be the pace where your body learns to burn fat for energy.

The highest heartrate I've ever reached is 183 and I have some notes about heart rate zones which are based on the maximum heartrate (183). These notes show:

110-119 Zone 1 Easy riding, recovery training
119-128 Zone 2 Endurance base training
128-146 Zone 3 Aerobic capacity training
146-156 Zone 4 Lactate threshold training
156+ Zone 5 Maximum aerobic training increasing max VO2


So, it looks like zone three most closely matches this "maximum aerobic HR" since it refers to aerobic capacity, but even the lowest number is above the calculaed number referred to above and the top end is actually pretty close to what I average for the first 9-12 miles of my rides.

I just want to make sure if I try this approach I'm using the right numbers, but I'm not sure which is correct.

None of those figure are really correct in that they are based on %MHR not % of LT. Someone already linked you to the MAPP; but I'm sure you never read it. Read these http://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm

to get the real low down on this method, buy Phil Maffetone's book, The Maffetone Method . He originated the concept and spells out in detail how to apply it.

btw, OP is "original poster" i.e., you, THeRCF...

my best guess based on what you've said is that you should train at 123 + 5= 128. the plus 5 because you've been training pretty serioulsy for a few years.

as for harder work, I think the book would tell you to add it in when you see yourself no long improving over a number of months - he explains how to check your progress along the way.

to get the real low down on this method, buy Phil Maffetone's book, The Maffetone Method . He originated the concept and spells out in detail how to apply it.

btw, OP is "original poster" i.e., you, THeRCF...

my best guess based on what you've said is that you should train at 123 + 5= 128. the plus 5 because you've been training pretty serioulsy for a few years.

as for harder work, I think the book would tell you to add it in when you see yourself no long improving over a number of months - he explains how to check your progress along the way.

Thanks. I'll get that book. Meanwhile, I guess I'll set my alert beeps on my HR monitor so that my "zone" is between 124 and 132 I guess, just to get started.