billh
03-27-06, 10:16 AM
At what age does Effective Cycling teach the "take the lane" maneuver?
View Full Version : what age teach "take the lane"?
Cycliste
03-27-06, 10:40 AM
Adult classes such as Bike Ed Road 1 are opened to teens from 14 years old with parental consent (this is also at the discretion of the instructor who may for example recommend that one of the parents also join). During this class, a 14 year old will learn and practice the concept of "taking the lane" among other skills (click here (http://bikeleague.org/programs/education/courses.php) for more details).
EnigManiac
03-27-06, 11:58 AM
This is one of the better questions I have seen posed here. I began teaching my son to ride on the road at age ten, once he was very proficient and capable of handling his bicycle, in my estimation. He is twelve, almost thirteen now, and is a far better cyclists than 80% of the adults I see on the road. Sometimes, when he doesn't know I am around, I'll watch him from a distance and I must admit I am proud. He is very alert and conscious of approaching traffic. He is predictable and does not take unnecessary risks. He stops at red lights and stop-signs (tho I have seen him roll through some when they were in very quiet neighbourhoods with ample visibility). Ultimately, I think the answer is you should terach him when YOU think he is capable and mature enough.
billh
03-27-06, 01:10 PM
Is there any concern about having 10-14 year olds take the lane in front of large vehicles on busy streets?
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
eubi
03-27-06, 01:19 PM
I teach Scouts cycling. They are from 11 to 18 years old.
I show them how they are legally entitled to use the roads. Many of the younger Scouts are not comfortable with some aspects of this, such as moving across a wide street to make a left hand turn. If they prefer to cross as a pedestrian, that's fine. Whatever they are comfortable with.
Most of them do get the concept of not hugging the curb where there is a right hand turn lane, when they want to go straight.
I show them how they are legally entitled to use the roads. Many of the younger Scouts are not comfortable with some aspects of this, such as moving across a wide street to make a left hand turn. If they prefer to cross as a pedestrian, that's fine. Whatever they are comfortable with.
Most of them do get the concept of not hugging the curb where there is a right hand turn lane, when they want to go straight.
Cycliste
03-27-06, 01:20 PM
~10 is considered a good age to take kids on the road and have them learn the way EnigManiac describes it, maturity may vary a lot from one kid to another.
LAB cut at 14 because it is estimated an age where teens can follow and assimilate the entire Bike Ed Road 1 curriculum, there is some liability implications also.
And yes, I would start with some quiet roads and progressively evolve from there including letting go with supervision.
LAB cut at 14 because it is estimated an age where teens can follow and assimilate the entire Bike Ed Road 1 curriculum, there is some liability implications also.
And yes, I would start with some quiet roads and progressively evolve from there including letting go with supervision.
ceridwen
03-27-06, 03:03 PM
Is there any concern about having 10-14 year olds take the lane in front of large vehicles on busy streets?
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
I'm gonna offer the flip side of this and say I think we'd all be better DRIVERS if we learned the rules of the road on our bikes first. Not to mention easing the burden on you to take the kids places as they will have a greater margin of freedom much sooner.
As kids my siblings and I would often go outside the bounds of where we had been told we could go once we started getting old enough to want to escape our neighborhood, and I know we would have been much safer while doing this if we had been taught effective cycling.
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
I'm gonna offer the flip side of this and say I think we'd all be better DRIVERS if we learned the rules of the road on our bikes first. Not to mention easing the burden on you to take the kids places as they will have a greater margin of freedom much sooner.
As kids my siblings and I would often go outside the bounds of where we had been told we could go once we started getting old enough to want to escape our neighborhood, and I know we would have been much safer while doing this if we had been taught effective cycling.
AndrewP
03-27-06, 08:57 PM
I started riding with my children on the streets when they were 4. I would ride behind them so I could see them and tell them what to do. I would also ride a bit further out from the curb so passing cars wouldnt get too close to them. I cant remember when they progressed to making left turns from the centre of busy roads, but the were able to handle the traffic without supervision by the time they were 12 or 13. I think this experience made them better drivers when they started in cars.
Helmet Head
03-27-06, 11:14 PM
Interested in Teaching Children?
Elementary-Level Cyclist Training Program: Objectives, Techniques & Results (http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/Education/elecpro.htm)
Describes the method for teaching classes of 8-year-old children how to cycle proficiently on 2-lane streets and 10-year-old children to cycle proficiently on easy 4-lane streets, and attain 95% class average scores on the Cycling Proficiency Test in traffic on those streets.
http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/education.htm
Elementary-Level Cyclist Training Program: Objectives, Techniques & Results (http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/Education/elecpro.htm)
Describes the method for teaching classes of 8-year-old children how to cycle proficiently on 2-lane streets and 10-year-old children to cycle proficiently on easy 4-lane streets, and attain 95% class average scores on the Cycling Proficiency Test in traffic on those streets.
http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/education.htm
Roody
03-28-06, 12:49 AM
Blue letters, HH? Does Raiyn know about this?
2manybikes
03-28-06, 10:34 AM
Blue letters, HH? Does Raiyn know about this?
:roflmao: :roflmao:
:roflmao: :roflmao:
Helmet Head
03-28-06, 10:37 AM
Blue letters, HH? Does Raiyn know about this?
You're going to have to 'splain that one to me, Roody. I use blue color when quoting sources all the time.
You're going to have to 'splain that one to me, Roody. I use blue color when quoting sources all the time.
billh
03-28-06, 12:33 PM
I'm doubtful of the safety of 10 year olds riding on "easy" 4-lane streets. I can't think of any 4-lane streets around my town that I would consider "easy". However, I can think of several 2-laners that I would consider difficult.
What is "speed positioning" between intersections? Does this involve taking the lane? I'm having difficulty picturing a 10 year old taking the lane on a busy 4-lane street in front of large delivery trucks. Just can't see a very good outcome there.
Also, the penalty for a lapse in judgment is very severe. We're talking getting hit by a car, ER, hospital, death. What is the cost in injury and death to the 4% who failed? Forrester noted his students were extra cautious. I believe that. It's just the lack of judgment and experience that worries me. A child can be cautious yet have bad judgment. Also there are physical limitations. When crossing a busy street with a rise, I can see over the rise for oncoming traffic, my 8 yr old cannot. A reasonable parent might question the tradeoff between mobility and risk. Perhaps that's why we parents serve as shuttle bus drivers. Not saying I like that, but I understand it.
What is "speed positioning" between intersections? Does this involve taking the lane? I'm having difficulty picturing a 10 year old taking the lane on a busy 4-lane street in front of large delivery trucks. Just can't see a very good outcome there.
Also, the penalty for a lapse in judgment is very severe. We're talking getting hit by a car, ER, hospital, death. What is the cost in injury and death to the 4% who failed? Forrester noted his students were extra cautious. I believe that. It's just the lack of judgment and experience that worries me. A child can be cautious yet have bad judgment. Also there are physical limitations. When crossing a busy street with a rise, I can see over the rise for oncoming traffic, my 8 yr old cannot. A reasonable parent might question the tradeoff between mobility and risk. Perhaps that's why we parents serve as shuttle bus drivers. Not saying I like that, but I understand it.
ceridwen
03-28-06, 01:43 PM
I'm doubtful of the safety of 10 year olds riding on "easy" 4-lane streets. I can't think of any 4-lane streets around my town that I would consider "easy". However, I can think of several 2-laners that I would consider difficult.
What is "speed positioning" between intersections? Does this involve taking the lane? I'm having difficulty picturing a 10 year old taking the lane on a busy 4-lane street in front of large delivery trucks. Just can't see a very good outcome there.
Also, the penalty for a lapse in judgment is very severe. We're talking getting hit by a car, ER, hospital, death. What is the cost in injury and death to the 4% who failed? Forrester noted his students were extra cautious. I believe that. It's just the lack of judgment and experience that worries me. A child can be cautious yet have bad judgment. Also there are physical limitations. When crossing a busy street with a rise, I can see over the rise for oncoming traffic, my 8 yr old cannot. A reasonable parent might question the tradeoff between mobility and risk. Perhaps that's why we parents serve as shuttle bus drivers. Not saying I like that, but I understand it.
I've known 12 year olds bigger than me, and I'm above average height for a female, I know some full grown women who are only as big as your average 9 or 10 year old. Size varies by a lot even among adults, and even a VERY large person on a bike is still so much smaller than a car that I think control of traffic centers more around attitude and application of skills than size.
They do mention that they are talking about 4 lane streets with 25mph traffic. I may not know any 4 lane streets around here that I would consider safe for a ten year old, but then I also don't know any that have 25mph traffic, so that's probably a big part of my problem. It doesn't seem completely outrageous to me that they would be capable of handling such a thing.
I don't often agree with HH, but I think he has a very valid point on this one. Obviously each parent should assess their childs capabilities, and set limits relative to those. I don't think anyone is suggesting that parents throw reason out the window, simply that they consider that their kids might be capable of more than they think.
What is "speed positioning" between intersections? Does this involve taking the lane? I'm having difficulty picturing a 10 year old taking the lane on a busy 4-lane street in front of large delivery trucks. Just can't see a very good outcome there.
Also, the penalty for a lapse in judgment is very severe. We're talking getting hit by a car, ER, hospital, death. What is the cost in injury and death to the 4% who failed? Forrester noted his students were extra cautious. I believe that. It's just the lack of judgment and experience that worries me. A child can be cautious yet have bad judgment. Also there are physical limitations. When crossing a busy street with a rise, I can see over the rise for oncoming traffic, my 8 yr old cannot. A reasonable parent might question the tradeoff between mobility and risk. Perhaps that's why we parents serve as shuttle bus drivers. Not saying I like that, but I understand it.
I've known 12 year olds bigger than me, and I'm above average height for a female, I know some full grown women who are only as big as your average 9 or 10 year old. Size varies by a lot even among adults, and even a VERY large person on a bike is still so much smaller than a car that I think control of traffic centers more around attitude and application of skills than size.
They do mention that they are talking about 4 lane streets with 25mph traffic. I may not know any 4 lane streets around here that I would consider safe for a ten year old, but then I also don't know any that have 25mph traffic, so that's probably a big part of my problem. It doesn't seem completely outrageous to me that they would be capable of handling such a thing.
I don't often agree with HH, but I think he has a very valid point on this one. Obviously each parent should assess their childs capabilities, and set limits relative to those. I don't think anyone is suggesting that parents throw reason out the window, simply that they consider that their kids might be capable of more than they think.
Cycliste
03-28-06, 04:27 PM
Forester's experiment was started in a protected environment and moving up to a real life one but reasonably safe taking into account all the training these skids had got, so it's not like if they were thrown into a lane positioning drill from day 1:
"We will teach them the beginning of this kind of cycling as is necessary to ride on the streets around the school with much less traffic, so that they would be safe now and be ready to learn how to ride in more difficult traffic when they got older and needed to go to more places."[/I]......and then it goes from [I]"The students rode an oval circuit while the instructor stood beside the straight segment. As they passed him, the students looked over their shoulders at him" to "By session 9 I had the better grade 3 students doing this reliably on a 2-lane collector street carrying about 5 cars a minute at 30 mph"
It's great when a school and parents have the motivation to make something like this happen. It's such a tough job pitching the value of these events even on a much smaller scale (meaning in a more protected environment).
"We will teach them the beginning of this kind of cycling as is necessary to ride on the streets around the school with much less traffic, so that they would be safe now and be ready to learn how to ride in more difficult traffic when they got older and needed to go to more places."[/I]......and then it goes from [I]"The students rode an oval circuit while the instructor stood beside the straight segment. As they passed him, the students looked over their shoulders at him" to "By session 9 I had the better grade 3 students doing this reliably on a 2-lane collector street carrying about 5 cars a minute at 30 mph"
It's great when a school and parents have the motivation to make something like this happen. It's such a tough job pitching the value of these events even on a much smaller scale (meaning in a more protected environment).
CommuterRun
03-28-06, 05:22 PM
Chalk me up for another, "10 is about right depending on the child."
Helmet Head
03-28-06, 07:11 PM
What is "speed positioning" between intersections?
Speed positioning is lane positioning according to speed (slower traffic keeps to the outside).
Between intersections is generally where traffic is organized according to speed positioning.
Destination positioning is lane positioning according to destination (those going left keep the left, those going right keep to the right, those going straight keep in between).
Intersections and their approaches is where traffic is organized according to destination positioning.
Destination positioning at intersections and their approaches, and speed positioning between intersections, applies on all roads. These principles should be taught from the beginning, as soon as the child is learning to ride on streets all. If a child is not ready to use destination and speed positioning as appropriate on a given street, then he should not be riding on that street at all.
The most common mistake I see cyclists make is to continue using speed positioning instead of switching to destination positioning at intersections and their approaches.
Speed positioning is lane positioning according to speed (slower traffic keeps to the outside).
Between intersections is generally where traffic is organized according to speed positioning.
Destination positioning is lane positioning according to destination (those going left keep the left, those going right keep to the right, those going straight keep in between).
Intersections and their approaches is where traffic is organized according to destination positioning.
Destination positioning at intersections and their approaches, and speed positioning between intersections, applies on all roads. These principles should be taught from the beginning, as soon as the child is learning to ride on streets all. If a child is not ready to use destination and speed positioning as appropriate on a given street, then he should not be riding on that street at all.
The most common mistake I see cyclists make is to continue using speed positioning instead of switching to destination positioning at intersections and their approaches.
closetbiker
03-29-06, 08:43 AM
I'm gonna offer the flip side of this and say I think we'd all be better DRIVERS if we learned the rules of the road on our bikes first. Not to mention easing the burden on you to take the kids places as they will have a greater margin of freedom much sooner.
I agree and it would be good if cycling could be introduced into schools in progressive courses that could lead up to drivers licences.
Not only will kids be better drivers, they'll understand just how it feels to be a cyclist and where cyclists fit on the roads.
Why this isn't done is a mystery. It's cheap and easy and ends up working out for everyone in the end.
I agree and it would be good if cycling could be introduced into schools in progressive courses that could lead up to drivers licences.
Not only will kids be better drivers, they'll understand just how it feels to be a cyclist and where cyclists fit on the roads.
Why this isn't done is a mystery. It's cheap and easy and ends up working out for everyone in the end.
closetbiker
03-29-06, 08:44 AM
I'm gonna offer the flip side of this and say I think we'd all be better DRIVERS if we learned the rules of the road on our bikes first. Not to mention easing the burden on you to take the kids places as they will have a greater margin of freedom much sooner.
I agree and it would be good if cycling could be introduced into schools in progressive courses that could lead up to drivers licences.
Not only will kids be better drivers, they'll understand just how it feels to be a cyclist and where cyclists fit on the roads.
Why this isn't done is a mystery. It's cheap and easy and ends up working out for everyone in the end.
I agree and it would be good if cycling could be introduced into schools in progressive courses that could lead up to drivers licences.
Not only will kids be better drivers, they'll understand just how it feels to be a cyclist and where cyclists fit on the roads.
Why this isn't done is a mystery. It's cheap and easy and ends up working out for everyone in the end.
billh
03-29-06, 09:17 AM
I'm all for teaching children how to ride bicycles on the streets and agree this will make them better drivers. BUT . . . I'm still having difficulty picturing a 10-year old taking the lane on a 4-lane street in front of large vehicles such as delivery trucks or a city bus. This seems inherently dangerous. For one thing, there is tremendous societal pressure against mixing bicycles with other traffic. Even police are not aware of the laws. Any adult who has bicycled in traffic knows the pressure firsthand. Adult cyclists have to have enough emotional strength, confidence, assertiveness, intestinal fortitude, whatever, to stand up to this pressure. Can a 10-year old insist on an accident report from a reluctant police officer and know how to gather insurance information from a hostile adult motorist? Can a 10-year assert their position in the lane in the face of all manner of verbal and physical threats from hostile motorists? These are the real world issues all of us face from time to time. I'm not sure a 10-year old is up to the task.
billh
03-29-06, 09:29 AM
Forester's experiment was started in a protected environment and moving up to a real life one but reasonably safe taking into account all the training these skids had got, so it's not like if they were thrown into a lane positioning drill from day 1:
"We will teach them the beginning of this kind of cycling as is necessary to ride on the streets around the school with much less traffic, so that they would be safe now and be ready to learn how to ride in more difficult traffic when they got older and needed to go to more places."[/I]......and then it goes from [I]"The students rode an oval circuit while the instructor stood beside the straight segment. As they passed him, the students looked over their shoulders at him" to "By session 9 I had the better grade 3 students doing this reliably on a 2-lane collector street carrying about 5 cars a minute at 30 mph"
It's great when a school and parents have the motivation to make something like this happen. It's such a tough job pitching the value of these events even on a much smaller scale (meaning in a more protected environment).
I have no problem with the 2-lane quiet residential street. There are plenty around my house. My 8-year old can ride those safely. I have a problem with the idea an "easy" 4-lane street. I've never seen one. Making a left turn on such a street is not an easy or safe task in my book, especially for an 8 or even 10 year old.
Here's the paragraph I have a problem with . . .
However, the grade 5 students achieved substantially the degree of competence required for the cycling that they currently perform. They became competent to perform all the standard maneuvers in low-speed traffic on 4-lane streets. Presumably, with more experience they will develop the ability to ride in medium-speed traffic on 6-lane streets because that requires no additional concepts, but only greater familiarity with multi-lane traffic. Because destination positioning at intersections had been the concept with weakest performance among trained grade 7 students and among untrained adults, we moved this concept from fifth (and last) to fourth in the training sequence. Grade 7 students had shown some mistakes in distinguishing between right and straight lanes; grade 5 students with more training in this concept did better. The concept of speed positioning, now last in sequence, was presented with particular emphasis against overtaking between a slow car and the curb, and these grade 5 students appeared better than the grade 7 students in avoiding this trouble. (This situation combines both speed and destination positioning. It may be that the later training reinforced the earlier.)
"We will teach them the beginning of this kind of cycling as is necessary to ride on the streets around the school with much less traffic, so that they would be safe now and be ready to learn how to ride in more difficult traffic when they got older and needed to go to more places."[/I]......and then it goes from [I]"The students rode an oval circuit while the instructor stood beside the straight segment. As they passed him, the students looked over their shoulders at him" to "By session 9 I had the better grade 3 students doing this reliably on a 2-lane collector street carrying about 5 cars a minute at 30 mph"
It's great when a school and parents have the motivation to make something like this happen. It's such a tough job pitching the value of these events even on a much smaller scale (meaning in a more protected environment).
I have no problem with the 2-lane quiet residential street. There are plenty around my house. My 8-year old can ride those safely. I have a problem with the idea an "easy" 4-lane street. I've never seen one. Making a left turn on such a street is not an easy or safe task in my book, especially for an 8 or even 10 year old.
Here's the paragraph I have a problem with . . .
However, the grade 5 students achieved substantially the degree of competence required for the cycling that they currently perform. They became competent to perform all the standard maneuvers in low-speed traffic on 4-lane streets. Presumably, with more experience they will develop the ability to ride in medium-speed traffic on 6-lane streets because that requires no additional concepts, but only greater familiarity with multi-lane traffic. Because destination positioning at intersections had been the concept with weakest performance among trained grade 7 students and among untrained adults, we moved this concept from fifth (and last) to fourth in the training sequence. Grade 7 students had shown some mistakes in distinguishing between right and straight lanes; grade 5 students with more training in this concept did better. The concept of speed positioning, now last in sequence, was presented with particular emphasis against overtaking between a slow car and the curb, and these grade 5 students appeared better than the grade 7 students in avoiding this trouble. (This situation combines both speed and destination positioning. It may be that the later training reinforced the earlier.)
bikewidget
03-29-06, 10:09 AM
My son bicycled in the streets at 10, but on the right side or shoulder. He'd look and signal into the lane at intersections making a left hand turn. Fortunately, he didn't have to use busy streets. I'd be reluctant for him to "take the lane" as a matter of course until I knew he wouldn't get rattled by honking horns or gesturing motorists.
Considering all the well-thought discussion on this one issue here, what do think goes through the mind of a motorist who is on the cell phone, drinking coffee, looking for a CD to pop into player, or trying to keep Jimmy and Bobby from smacking each other in the back seat and then comes upon a cyclist in the lane. Does it even register?
Considering all the well-thought discussion on this one issue here, what do think goes through the mind of a motorist who is on the cell phone, drinking coffee, looking for a CD to pop into player, or trying to keep Jimmy and Bobby from smacking each other in the back seat and then comes upon a cyclist in the lane. Does it even register?
chipcom
03-29-06, 10:26 AM
I was taking the lane in the third and fourth grade - 8-9 years old? I taught my own kids young and they were cycling in traffic comfortably around age 10. I taught my 14 yr old stepson last year when he was 13 and today he cycles in traffic comfortably.
The OP's words regarding taking the lane come off to me more like cutting off drivers, rather than merging when it is safe to do so and negotiating the space you need if traffic is heavy. Of course he also alludes to the 'pressure' of riding in traffic, which is something I can't identify with...I don't feel any more pressure riding my bike in traffic than I do walking down the street, and definitely feel less pressure than when driving, working or trying to get into a restaurant.
The OP's words regarding taking the lane come off to me more like cutting off drivers, rather than merging when it is safe to do so and negotiating the space you need if traffic is heavy. Of course he also alludes to the 'pressure' of riding in traffic, which is something I can't identify with...I don't feel any more pressure riding my bike in traffic than I do walking down the street, and definitely feel less pressure than when driving, working or trying to get into a restaurant.
billh
03-29-06, 11:36 AM
Of course he also alludes to the 'pressure' of riding in traffic, which is something I can't identify with...I don't feel any more pressure riding my bike in traffic than I do walking down the street, and definitely feel less pressure than when driving, working or trying to get into a restaurant.
I ride 16 miles per day, 5 days per week, 52 weeks per year in 8am and 5pm rush hour traffic on major streets in the St Louis metro area, and have done so for about 10 years. Granted it's not LA, but it's busy enough. Yes, I feel the "pressure".
I ride 16 miles per day, 5 days per week, 52 weeks per year in 8am and 5pm rush hour traffic on major streets in the St Louis metro area, and have done so for about 10 years. Granted it's not LA, but it's busy enough. Yes, I feel the "pressure".
Helmet Head
03-29-06, 12:11 PM
The OP's words regarding taking the lane come off to me more like cutting off drivers, rather than merging when it is safe to do so and negotiating the space you need if traffic is heavy. Of course he also alludes to the 'pressure' of riding in traffic, which is something I can't identify with...I don't feel any more pressure riding my bike in traffic than I do walking down the street, and definitely feel less pressure than when driving, working or trying to get into a restaurant.
Yes, I feel the "pressure".
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
Yes, I feel the "pressure".
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
billh
03-29-06, 01:58 PM
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
Can you tell me which statement was made by someone who actually rides in traffic?
Can you tell me which statement was made by someone who actually rides in traffic?
ceridwen
03-29-06, 02:05 PM
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
No, I can't and I don't think you can for sure either. As has already been discussed in other threads, people have very different personalities, and cope differently with various types of stress.
The personal attacks and insults on this forum are just ridiculous sometimes. Give the antagonism a rest. People will be a lot more likely to come around to your point of view if you present things in a reasonable manner (as at the start of this thread) rather than resorting to being an *ss in every thread.
No, I can't and I don't think you can for sure either. As has already been discussed in other threads, people have very different personalities, and cope differently with various types of stress.
The personal attacks and insults on this forum are just ridiculous sometimes. Give the antagonism a rest. People will be a lot more likely to come around to your point of view if you present things in a reasonable manner (as at the start of this thread) rather than resorting to being an *ss in every thread.
Michel Gagnon
03-29-06, 09:58 PM
Is there any concern about having 10-14 year olds take the lane in front of large vehicles on busy streets?
I don't see any problems with that, or even with younger kids taking the lane. At least in principle. I would apply the following principles:
the child must know how to handle the bike and be predictable;
the child must be able to assess traffic, including cars behind him or her;
the child must know how to move left safely;
the child must be visible.
Kids on 20"-wheel bikes are likely to fail the last criterium, no matter how skilled they are. But one the child is on a 24" or 26"-wheel bike he or she is visible to motorists. As for the other criteria, they come with experience. My 9-year-old daughter (10 in June) has been cycling on her own since she was 6 and has done significant cycling since she was 7. She has also cycled on the trailercycle from ages 4 to 7 and on the tandem since then, for a total of 2000-3000 km per year, including 500 km on her own last year. And I have seen her do a couple of emergency manoeuvres to avoid a couple of faulty cyclists that tell a lot of her cycling skills in traffic.
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
I think you got the wrong end of the picture. As for low-traffic residential streets, I see that at 5. At 10, it's about time they go somewhere useful with the bicycle so they start seeing it as a vehicle rather than a mere toy.
I don't see any problems with that, or even with younger kids taking the lane. At least in principle. I would apply the following principles:
the child must know how to handle the bike and be predictable;
the child must be able to assess traffic, including cars behind him or her;
the child must know how to move left safely;
the child must be visible.
Kids on 20"-wheel bikes are likely to fail the last criterium, no matter how skilled they are. But one the child is on a 24" or 26"-wheel bike he or she is visible to motorists. As for the other criteria, they come with experience. My 9-year-old daughter (10 in June) has been cycling on her own since she was 6 and has done significant cycling since she was 7. She has also cycled on the trailercycle from ages 4 to 7 and on the tandem since then, for a total of 2000-3000 km per year, including 500 km on her own last year. And I have seen her do a couple of emergency manoeuvres to avoid a couple of faulty cyclists that tell a lot of her cycling skills in traffic.
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
I think you got the wrong end of the picture. As for low-traffic residential streets, I see that at 5. At 10, it's about time they go somewhere useful with the bicycle so they start seeing it as a vehicle rather than a mere toy.
ellenDSD
03-30-06, 07:48 AM
Interesting thread...
I have a 9 yr. old son (Like your daughter, Michel, he'll be 10 in June). We bike in traffic almost every day; To and from school, the grocery, etc. I have and continue to teach him the rules of the road, the laws, and how to handle himself as another vehicle on the streets and I think he will be a better driver in the future because of his experience. I don't think he is quite ready to hit the open road by himself however. He is still learning how to judge the speed of cars versus his speed and he doesn't have his timing down well enough to accurately judge when to go and when to wait. Therefore, he pays attention to what is going on but he waits for me to tell him when to merge left, etc. etc. Like I said, he's learning but improving every day. So, probably by next year or at least by the time he hits middle school, he'll have the knowledge AND skill to negotiate traffic on his bike by himself.
Oh, and he rides a 24" Trek MTB now but hopefully next year, we'll be able to upgrade him to a road bike :)
I have a 9 yr. old son (Like your daughter, Michel, he'll be 10 in June). We bike in traffic almost every day; To and from school, the grocery, etc. I have and continue to teach him the rules of the road, the laws, and how to handle himself as another vehicle on the streets and I think he will be a better driver in the future because of his experience. I don't think he is quite ready to hit the open road by himself however. He is still learning how to judge the speed of cars versus his speed and he doesn't have his timing down well enough to accurately judge when to go and when to wait. Therefore, he pays attention to what is going on but he waits for me to tell him when to merge left, etc. etc. Like I said, he's learning but improving every day. So, probably by next year or at least by the time he hits middle school, he'll have the knowledge AND skill to negotiate traffic on his bike by himself.
Oh, and he rides a 24" Trek MTB now but hopefully next year, we'll be able to upgrade him to a road bike :)
closetbiker
03-30-06, 08:10 AM
Currently BC has a limited program to teach safe cycling to children in schools 12 years old and under. It's specifically aimed at this age group and "adult" courses (Can-Bike) are not availible in schools but can be taken (for a cost, of course) for teens.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
Child cyclists lack ability to judge traffic
Study finds young riders are less able to gauge how much time they have to cross busy streets
By ANDRΙ PICARD
PUBLIC HEALTH REPORTER
UPDATED AT 1:11 AM EDT Friday, Jul 16, 2004
Children -- even those as old as 12 -- may not have the cognitive abilities to cross the street safely on their bicycles, according to a new study.
The research reveals that children have difficulty judging when it is safe to skirt through the gaps in oncoming traffic and routinely overestimate how quickly they can cross the street, details that may help explain why so many children are injured and killed in collisions with motor vehicles.
"Children have more difficulty than adults in fitting their actions to the environment," said Jodie Plumert, a
psychology professor at the University of Iowa and lead author of the study.
"This may be particularly problematic in dynamic situations, where children must co-ordinate their own movement in relation to the movement of objects in the environment."
To conduct the study, published in today's edition of the Journal Child Development, researchers used virtual reality technology to allow participants to "ride" a stationery bicycle through a residential neighbourhood, where cars were travelling between 50 and 70 kilometres an hour.
The technology allowed researchers to, for the first time, put children in dangerous real-world situations, without actually having them risk injury.
The research team found that children and adults chose exactly the same size gaps in traffic to attempt crossing.
But the ability to actually cross was very different.
Adults cleared the lane, on average, two seconds before a car passed, but with children it was less than one second.
Dr. Plumert said the children left so little margin for error, there was not enough time to recover from even the smallest hesitation, such as a foot slipping off the pedal.
Allyson Hewitt, executive director of Safe Kids Canada, said the new research provides valuable information for parents and drivers alike.
"In our society, we tend to think of children as little adults. But this study shows us quite clearly that, even at age 12, a child on a bike doesn't have the same abilities as an adult," she said.
"Just because you put a helmet on your child and he assures you that he's big enough to go out riding alone doesn't mean that he actually has the ability," Ms. Hewitt cautioned.
Safety equipment, safety training and improved environments (such as bicycle paths and enforcement of traffic laws) can all reduce the number of injuries and deaths, she added.
About 80 per cent of Canadian children have a bicycle but the rate is higher in rural than urban areas. Safe Kids has, for years, said that children should not cross the street alone before age nine because they did not have adequate cognitive abilities to judge traffic.
Ms. Hewitt said the group may have to re-think that message because the new research shows that, even at age 12, there are serious gaps between children's perceptions and their abilities.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
Child cyclists lack ability to judge traffic
Study finds young riders are less able to gauge how much time they have to cross busy streets
By ANDRΙ PICARD
PUBLIC HEALTH REPORTER
UPDATED AT 1:11 AM EDT Friday, Jul 16, 2004
Children -- even those as old as 12 -- may not have the cognitive abilities to cross the street safely on their bicycles, according to a new study.
The research reveals that children have difficulty judging when it is safe to skirt through the gaps in oncoming traffic and routinely overestimate how quickly they can cross the street, details that may help explain why so many children are injured and killed in collisions with motor vehicles.
"Children have more difficulty than adults in fitting their actions to the environment," said Jodie Plumert, a
psychology professor at the University of Iowa and lead author of the study.
"This may be particularly problematic in dynamic situations, where children must co-ordinate their own movement in relation to the movement of objects in the environment."
To conduct the study, published in today's edition of the Journal Child Development, researchers used virtual reality technology to allow participants to "ride" a stationery bicycle through a residential neighbourhood, where cars were travelling between 50 and 70 kilometres an hour.
The technology allowed researchers to, for the first time, put children in dangerous real-world situations, without actually having them risk injury.
The research team found that children and adults chose exactly the same size gaps in traffic to attempt crossing.
But the ability to actually cross was very different.
Adults cleared the lane, on average, two seconds before a car passed, but with children it was less than one second.
Dr. Plumert said the children left so little margin for error, there was not enough time to recover from even the smallest hesitation, such as a foot slipping off the pedal.
Allyson Hewitt, executive director of Safe Kids Canada, said the new research provides valuable information for parents and drivers alike.
"In our society, we tend to think of children as little adults. But this study shows us quite clearly that, even at age 12, a child on a bike doesn't have the same abilities as an adult," she said.
"Just because you put a helmet on your child and he assures you that he's big enough to go out riding alone doesn't mean that he actually has the ability," Ms. Hewitt cautioned.
Safety equipment, safety training and improved environments (such as bicycle paths and enforcement of traffic laws) can all reduce the number of injuries and deaths, she added.
About 80 per cent of Canadian children have a bicycle but the rate is higher in rural than urban areas. Safe Kids has, for years, said that children should not cross the street alone before age nine because they did not have adequate cognitive abilities to judge traffic.
Ms. Hewitt said the group may have to re-think that message because the new research shows that, even at age 12, there are serious gaps between children's perceptions and their abilities.
billh
03-30-06, 08:53 AM
Currently BC has a limited program to teach safe cycling to children in schools 12 years old and under. It's specifically aimed at this age group and "adult" courses (Can-Bike) are not availible in schools but can be taken (for a cost, of course) for teens.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
Thanks closetbiker, that research corresponds to my experience.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
Thanks closetbiker, that research corresponds to my experience.
closetbiker
03-30-06, 09:21 AM
I have another study done on cycling collisions where it says the same thing. That there is some cognitive differences in how kids see things and adults see them.
When safety is mentioned in cycling there seems to be no shortage of using childrens accidents on bicycles, padding claims that cycling is dangerous.
When safety is mentioned in cycling there seems to be no shortage of using childrens accidents on bicycles, padding claims that cycling is dangerous.
I-Like-To-Bike
03-30-06, 10:00 AM
When safety is mentioned in cycling there seems to be no shortage of using childrens accidents on bicycles, padding claims that cycling is dangerous.
Misuse of children's accident studies figure prominently in padding the claims of those promoting the effectiveness of their favorite education program to drastically reduce the risk to the general cycling public.
Misuse of children's accident studies figure prominently in padding the claims of those promoting the effectiveness of their favorite education program to drastically reduce the risk to the general cycling public.
Cycliste
03-30-06, 10:35 AM
Yes, this thread is interesting because it shows a lot of consistencies in the observations, experiences and studies brought into the mix:
- 4-5 years is a good age to start teaching our kids some skills under close supervision in a selectively chosen environment (very safe with very low and very slow traffic). At this age, they can learn some important things such as riding on the right hand side, in a straight line, watching for vehicles pulling out of driveways etc. Close supervision means being followed or preceded closely by an adult on a bike (or a fast runner :) ). I do that with my daughter and she is definitly more skilled and safer than most other kids of her age (and older) that are either let go or restrained to the driveway or sidewalk.
But that's it, there is not much more I would expect. I am also aware of the limitations, particularly a rapid loss of concentration as the kid gets a little tired and a tendency to get distracted easily. They're little kids, how different do you really want to have them? ;)
- 5 to 10: Continue building-up skills with more independence, but close supervision is still required and environment should remain safe. I think Forester's experiment demonstrates this, it is simply brought at a more challenging level with a framework that most parents wan't be able to provide ; so I would tend to be more conservative in this age range. closetbiker sums it up correctly: "there is some cognitive differences in how kids see things and adults see them" and that's where the limits we need to be aware of are.
- ~10 is a good age to start let go on supervision, provided that the kid has been exposed to the preceding stages. Other activities exercised or exposure to some other environment may also play a role in the kids maturity and readiness to deal with the new challenges.
bilhh asks about 10-14, well there can be a big difference between these two ages but in general 10 years old should only be considered as an entry level into the next phase, not a point where it all happens at once. Most forteen years old who have been exposed to some degree of responsibility and tought the appropriate skills are ready to take the lane and do pretty much what a young adult can do , (meaning not entirely wise :) ). Within this age bracket, I am hoping that at some stage my daughter will begin to take her bike to school and her friends'. ellenDSD, I will PM you for some tips at this stage, great job!
OK, hit me now for being overprotective or an irresponsible nut :)
- 4-5 years is a good age to start teaching our kids some skills under close supervision in a selectively chosen environment (very safe with very low and very slow traffic). At this age, they can learn some important things such as riding on the right hand side, in a straight line, watching for vehicles pulling out of driveways etc. Close supervision means being followed or preceded closely by an adult on a bike (or a fast runner :) ). I do that with my daughter and she is definitly more skilled and safer than most other kids of her age (and older) that are either let go or restrained to the driveway or sidewalk.
But that's it, there is not much more I would expect. I am also aware of the limitations, particularly a rapid loss of concentration as the kid gets a little tired and a tendency to get distracted easily. They're little kids, how different do you really want to have them? ;)
- 5 to 10: Continue building-up skills with more independence, but close supervision is still required and environment should remain safe. I think Forester's experiment demonstrates this, it is simply brought at a more challenging level with a framework that most parents wan't be able to provide ; so I would tend to be more conservative in this age range. closetbiker sums it up correctly: "there is some cognitive differences in how kids see things and adults see them" and that's where the limits we need to be aware of are.
- ~10 is a good age to start let go on supervision, provided that the kid has been exposed to the preceding stages. Other activities exercised or exposure to some other environment may also play a role in the kids maturity and readiness to deal with the new challenges.
bilhh asks about 10-14, well there can be a big difference between these two ages but in general 10 years old should only be considered as an entry level into the next phase, not a point where it all happens at once. Most forteen years old who have been exposed to some degree of responsibility and tought the appropriate skills are ready to take the lane and do pretty much what a young adult can do , (meaning not entirely wise :) ). Within this age bracket, I am hoping that at some stage my daughter will begin to take her bike to school and her friends'. ellenDSD, I will PM you for some tips at this stage, great job!
OK, hit me now for being overprotective or an irresponsible nut :)
Helmet Head
03-30-06, 11:10 AM
The OP's words regarding taking the lane come off to me more like cutting off drivers, rather than merging when it is safe to do so and negotiating the space you need if traffic is heavy. Of course he also alludes to the 'pressure' of riding in traffic, which is something I can't identify with...I don't feel any more pressure riding my bike in traffic than I do walking down the street, and definitely feel less pressure than when driving, working or trying to get into a restaurant.
Yes, I feel the "pressure".
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
Can you tell me which statement was made by someone who actually rides in traffic?
Having basis in my position, I have no need to avoid your questions about my statements.
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
Yes, I feel the "pressure".
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
Can you tell me which statement was made by someone who actually rides in traffic?
Having basis in my position, I have no need to avoid your questions about my statements.
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
billh
03-30-06, 03:49 PM
Having basis in my position, I have no need to avoid your questions about my statements.
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
HH, are you comfortable when you are taking the lane and four or five motorists honk and hurl insults at you? Have you become so numb to reality that you simply ignore it? I mix with car traffic when I have to but I hear the insults and see the visibly upset motorists. I can say, "they shouldn't feel that way", but that ignores the reality. Therefore, I try to minimize their inconvenience. That's not something I hear the EC dogmatists talking about. And the should be talking about it.
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
HH, are you comfortable when you are taking the lane and four or five motorists honk and hurl insults at you? Have you become so numb to reality that you simply ignore it? I mix with car traffic when I have to but I hear the insults and see the visibly upset motorists. I can say, "they shouldn't feel that way", but that ignores the reality. Therefore, I try to minimize their inconvenience. That's not something I hear the EC dogmatists talking about. And the should be talking about it.
DCCommuter
03-31-06, 04:44 PM
I think we're asking the wrong question here. The way the original post was worded, it sounds like "taking the lane" is an alternative to some safer technique. The reality for me is I take the lane because I've learned that in certain situations it's the safest way. If you're going to ride in traffic, and on roads where you have no choice but to ride in traffic, you should be taking the lane.
The question should really be, at what age should kids ride in traffic?
The question should really be, at what age should kids ride in traffic?
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