Living Car Free - Should I get a masters in planning?

I just wanted to see what anyone out there in this wide world of the internet thought about an idea I have.

I am finishing up an undergrad degree here at the University of Arizona. I'm really interested in urban planning, for environmental/health reasons. I want cities to be more designed for bikes, pedestrians...blah blah blah. I'm sure you all have the same ideas.

So, I figured, maybe I could get a masters in planning. This page talks about it:
http://grad.arizona.edu/Catalog/Program_Descriptions/Program_Descriptions.php?dept=plan

I don't care about money really. I just want to help. I think this is kinda my calling, perse.

Is it even worth it to shell out all this money to get a masters? I know I would learn alot... but can I just learn all this on my own, and enact change to this world without this degree?

What do ya'll think? Any takers?

I know a few people who have earned this degree, and none of them went on to be actual city planners, or anything related. The fact is there aren't that many city planner jobs to go around. You don't need a degree in city planning to be a successful advocate for healthy communities. You do need to develop the mind-set of an advocate or a politician. If you want my 2 cents, get an MBA, or some other wide spectrum degree, start networking, and start advocating. Good luck on the good cause. :)

The university should help you get in touch with some grads so you can see what they're up to. Call around, or Email some city planners in your are. Ask them what they think of the program, or what they think the best training is. I imagine they'd know more than a bunch of dumb bike riders!

If I were you I would go meet with some planners in the area, private planners that work for profit, and city planners. Find out what they hate about their job, find out what they love. Find out what their every day jobs entail and their income. In California there is a big need for planners, I have seen this need especially in the growing foothill communities. Good luck!

Look at traffic engineering too. I know a guy who does this in Philly. Apparently, the culture isn't especially receptive, but that is where decisions are made. Cities that require a lot of planning are generally new ones, and in this country, new cities are usually designed around cars as a (misguided) cultural preference, and for political/economic reasons, such as the lack of willingness to front the money for a mass transport infrastructure based on what you EXPECT to grow there.

thx for all the responses. I'll keep looking into this.

So, planning is more for new development? Makes sense I guess.

So what the hell should I do if I want to get into changing the way things currently are?

Say, for instance... I see a road that could REALLY use a pedestrian/bike crossing.

What can a person like me do?

Should I try to get a job with some part of the city that would be able to install these things?

Is this "government"? I honestly feel like a 4 year old in terms of knowledge about the government and how cities work. Although I am a smart person :)

In the US, all levels of government -- city, county, state and federal -- are involved in planning and building roads and streets. And of course sidewalks and bike facilities, etc. They aren't building a lot of new roads these days, but there is a lot of rebuilding going on all the time. Some of us believe there will be major changes in transportation coming up in the next few years as more people turn away from old-fashioned gas powered private vehicles. Maybe a lot more jobs will open up in related fields, but who knows?

People plan, design and build roads, and they usually work for one of the levels of government, or for highway construction companies. Others work for nongovernmantal agencies, like bicycle advocacy groups. A lot of these people are engineers.

There's another group of people involved in city planning or urban planning, who take a broader approach, like deciding where the road should go, and who it should serve. These ones are more likely to have degrees in urban planning and related fields.

I think this is wonderful work. I'm sure you could make a nice living, and also feel like you were doing something useful for your community. I think a lot of emphasis is placed on having the right credentials for this kind of career, so you should probably research it carefully before you plunk down any tuition money.

For example, in the city where I live, they're putting in a "rain garden." This is trees and stuff along the main street that will filter runoff water before discharging it into the Grand River. I guess they will have to totally rebuild the street to install it. It's supposed to make the river cleaner, and also provide nice landscaping along the street. That would be a good thing!

check out cyburbia.org's forums. good info there, lots of planners, landscape architects (myself included), engineers, etc. contribute there.

thx for all the responses. I'll keep looking into this.

Given your interest in cycling and pedistrian issues, you'll probably want to investigate programs that have been influenced by or are affiliated with The Congress for the New Urbanism (http://www.cnu.org/). While the NU movement has been associated mainly with new neighborhoods and developments, I think you can find plenty of examples of Traditional Neighborhood Developments (http://www.preservenet.com/politics/NewUrb.html) within existing urban infrastructure and even in downtown neighborhoods.

Several years a go I found myself at the same place you are now and started working on a second masters degree in urban studies. I've since switched to historic preservation.

I too found myself at this crossroads. I have an architecture minor and wanted to influence more than one house at a time. My decision has been too get my Arch License, get a planning certificate in a few years and work locally on bicycle and trails advocacy.
BTW, here in California, traffic consultants are in VERY high demand. You don't have to have a degree to have a large impact, you can do a lot as a concerned citizen, even get ellected to city council and make changes.

I think it would be very worthwhile. Here in the Bay Area I see job postings and opportunities all the time for individuals with a planning background and/or degree. We have at least 40-50 local governments here, plus country, state, etc. If I weren't 50 and with two degrees already I might go back again for some credentials in that area - I think it is an exciting field, along with renewable energy.

As others mentioned, there are ways that a citizen can get involved, but if it is your area of interest you will get a lot farther working in the field and spending your day at it. At some point you may become very influential. Just remember though, your decisions for the most part will be based on the input of many, and the needs of the organization you work for, so there will be many times your opinion will be just that - an opinion, and you will still have to study and implement solutions at times that are at odds with your values.

I just wanted to see what anyone out there in this wide world of the internet thought about an idea I have.

I am finishing up an undergrad degree here at the University of Arizona. I'm really interested in urban planning, for environmental/health reasons. I want cities to be more designed for bikes, pedestrians...blah blah blah. I'm sure you all have the same ideas.

So, I figured, maybe I could get a masters in planning. This page talks about it:
http://grad.arizona.edu/Catalog/Program_Descriptions/Program_Descriptions.php?dept=plan

I don't care about money really. I just want to help. I think this is kinda my calling, perse.

Is it even worth it to shell out all this money to get a masters? I know I would learn alot... but can I just learn all this on my own, and enact change to this world without this degree?

What do ya'll think? Any takers?

Check out cyburbia.com

You can't expect to land a job in planning without a master's degree. As with many other professions, you need the additional education.

If you are interested in being an activist, even if you don't end up in planning as a profession, you can't do much better than getting a planning degree. Pursuing the degree should give you a "wide-spectrum" perspective on a lot of societal issues. And definitely not just new development.

No one here has mentioned the american planning association: http://www.planning.org/

Check out cyburbia.com

Hey I said that. :p

For example, in the city where I live, they're putting in a "rain garden." This is trees and stuff along the main street that will filter runoff water before discharging it into the Grand River. I guess they will have to totally rebuild the street to install it. It's supposed to make the river cleaner, and also provide nice landscaping along the street. That would be a good thing!

'Rain Garden' is a pleasant way of describing a bioretention pond. They are 'all the rage' right now in urban planning, and for good reasons. They slow and cool stormwater runoff before it makes it into the nearest watershed, diverts and keeps onsite a good amount of the stormwater itself and the use of appropriate vegetation and soils within the pond help filtrate almost all of the man-made pollutants which would have been carried off of impermeable surfaces directly into the watershed otherwise.

The fact that they can be designed with attractive ornamental plants is an added bonus!

Dave

Hey I said that. :p

I posted it before, but it didn't take with the new server. Sorry for the double post.


Is it even worth it to shell out all this money to get a masters? I know I would learn alot... but can I just learn all this on my own, and enact change to this world without this degree?

What do ya'll think? Any takers?

Yes, you will need the degree at some point. I have been doing housing and community development work for the past 7 years. Just this year I decided to apply to Master programs cause I have learned all I can and not going to a get better job or pay without the degree. If you really want to make some changes be ready to deal with lots of red tape and community opposition, as well as your elected officials.

Thanks again for more comments. This is something I'm going to have to think about. My father wants me to get a masters, but I don't want to get it in Psychology. I know that has high earning potential, but I don't care as much about money. I guess I would use the time I'm on this earth to help things that I see need changing. It seems with a masters in planning, I would learn all the ins and outs of what I want to know. And, a potential employer would like to see a masters.

Otherwise, I guess I would rather not spend all the money. But if I have the potential to make more money for making the masters, to pay off the debt I'm in from GETTING the masters, then this might seem like something I can do.

Whatever you do, don't neglect to read your Jane Jacobs...

Say, for instance... I see a road that could REALLY use a pedestrian/bike crossing.

What can a person like me do?


A person like you can do a lot. A few years back, a guy I knew at university wanted to have a crosswalk added to the university's busy main street for the convenience of engineering students who had to shuttle back and forth across the street between classes. According to city regulations, the nearest existing crosswalks were sufficiently close, but in reality they were just far enough away to be annoying when running between classes. Everyone crossed in the middle of the street, and there were many near-misses. Anyway, the guy I knew wrote up a detailed proposal, presented it at City Hall and a few moths later the crosswalk appeared. He was a member of the student board of directors, but that's not the kind of position that gives you a lot of power. He got it done because he wanted to get it done. I found it quite inspiring, in an odd sort of way.

I've been thinking about urban planning a lot too, and I too am not sure exactly where to go with it. One thing to remember is that, as with any discipline, there are many opportunities for specialisation. You have to figure out what particular *part* of urban planning you're interested in. It seems that you, like many people on this board, are in interested in urban planning as it pertains to transportation. You should try to find a school that has a strong programme in your chosen specialisation.


EDIT: Reading your comments again, I see you have a background in Psychology. Given the interest in the poltical process that you also hint at, you might be interested in a field my sister has recently discovered, called "political psychology". It's all about looking at why people make the decisions that they do. You could ask, for instance, why people make decisions that from an objective standpoint are irrational, and/or potentially harmful to themselves. I'm sure that field would have interesting things to say about car ownership, dependence, and impact on politics!

Whatever you do, don't neglect to read your Jane Jacobs...

For anyone interested, here is a detailed interview of Ms. Jacobs given by Howard Kunstler (http://www.kunstler.com/mags_jacobs1.htm).

For anyone interested, here is a detailed interview of Ms. Jacobs given by Howard Kunstler (http://www.kunstler.com/mags_jacobs1.htm).

Jane Jacobs is my hero, and the interview is really amazing. Thanks for posting it!!

I am finishing up an undergrad degree here at the University of Arizona. I'm really interested in urban planning, for environmental/health reasons. I want cities to be more designed for bikes, pedestrians...blah blah blah. I'm sure you all have the same ideas.

So, I figured, maybe I could get a masters in planning.


Yes, do it if it interests you. Most people are receiving education and training that are good for jobs that existed fifteen years ago. What you're looking to do is relevant today ... and its relevancy will increase in the future.

Yeah...

but are the costs worth it? I love how people just say without thinking "yeah go to college blah blah blah" ... they forget that its pretty expensive, don't u think?

Yeah...

but are the costs worth it? I love how people just say without thinking "yeah go to college blah blah blah" ... they forget that its pretty expensive, don't u think?

As unhelpful as it might be to say this, I think only you can decide whether or not it's worth it. As with any investment, there's a certain amount of risk that it will all be for nothing (i.e. you spend the money on school and it turns out to be useless, you can't get a relevant job, etc.). I'm personally of the opinion that money invested in education is rarely wasted. And, as others have posted here, we're likely to need more good urban planners in the future.

You might want to look into what sort of scholarships and bursaries you can apply for to help you out. Beyond that, you could consider going further afield to find a more affordable school. Canadian universities, for instance, are often cheaper than their American counterparts (though, as an international student, the difference for you might not be huge). Try to contact individual professors to get a better idea of the specifics of each programme, the work that they specialise in, any questions you can think of. I'd say "yeah go to college blah blah blah", but make sure you get as much information as possible beforehand so you know exactly what you're doing.

gbcb - yeah you make a lot of sense. I'll have to email the profs and check into it. God yes we DO need better urban planners.

For instance, in Tucson, they're trying to pass this 2+ billion transportation plan that will take 20 years to finish. I don't like how they are only spending a very very small amount to increase bicycling. They're building tons of new road, etc etc. But whats interesting is they're going to pay for it by a 1/2 cent sales tax increase. When instead, I think they should do a gas tax... so people who will be driving will be paying for the roads.

I could go on and on, but don't have the time. Yeah I'll have to look seriously more into this.

Jane Jacobs is my hero, and the interview is really amazing. Thanks for posting it!!

J.H. Kunstler's books are worth reading as well, especially The Geography of Nowhere.

The Death and Life of Great American Cities was the last can't-put-it-down great book I read, and that was like three years ago. I've since come across countless references to her work as a "bible" for planners, a foundational text, and so on. O really? She was clearly a rebel when she published it in the early 1960s, but now she's establishment? If she's so widely read and respected, how come most development after the 1960s seems almost as (and sometimes more) screwed up than what Jacobs criticized? Is there a lot of gutless lip service to her ideas in planning circles? Sometimes the best way to neutralize radical ideas is to tattoo them on your forehead, wave the flag, etc., and then just ignore them. Christianity and Jane Jacobs come to mind.

Concerning planning as a profession, before this thread began I had been asking myself whether part of the problem was that most formal education occurs early in people's lives, while the kind of awareness and wisdom that good planning needs comes late. At 40 I feel like I'm just starting to get a handle on what good planning might look like. Maybe I'm just slow, but it scares me a little to consider people who haven't really lived in a diversity of arrangements, through more than youthful life phases, planning. I'm gonna go take my constitutional on the high-wheeler now.

but are the costs worth it? I love how people just say without thinking "yeah go to college blah blah blah" ... they forget that its pretty expensive, don't u think?

Your mileage may vary, but in my opinion some college degrees are an amazing deal. I've never gone to a $30,000-per-year college and I don't think it would be worth it. But if you're talking about a university that gets most of its money from the government such as ____-State University, I think you get a lot for your money. You might have to take out a lot of loans, but you can make a lot of money if you get an employment-related degree. Maybe I shouldn't encourage you to go to law school*, but politics is where it's at if you want to help set policy for city planners, and law school seems like a good way to get involved in politics.

*because I'm a law student

I agree with cerewa.

Not on being a lawyer, but I think if you become an urban planner you'll find that the requirements of your design are given by clients (typically government).

You won't be able to say "I think I'll make this design more bike friendly" unless that's a requirement of the client.

I'm sure you'll have some opportunity for your own creativity but on the whole you'll just be taking orders.
I worked in an engineering firm with a planning department and was close with some of its members. Thats basically the impression I got.

One thing I'm beginning to understand is that you don't have to be an industry professional to make a difference, as someone pointed out earlier (crosswalk). The idea is to gather public support and then go to the politicians and make changes.
Also, with current issues (global warming, petrol prices etc. ) the political climate is ripe for manipulation.

Good luck!!

PS. In direct answer to your question, I advise working for a year or two before making a decision. Try and get a job in a firm either doing what you want, or working alongside people that do what you want. Or try some pain old work experience. I made a mistake and got a degree in something I wasn't interested in, now I'm going through the same old painful experience. (thank god I don't live in U.S. or that would have been difficult).

Thanks for more input.

I just have a passion for the environment. When I see other cities like Portland, Amsterdam, and Copenhagen doing good things with bicycling, it makes me want to get involved to keep changing things. When I see the RTA's 2 billion transportation plan, and see how it doesn't include much money for bicycling, it makes me think WTF, in short.

I'm interested in the earth, sustainability, leaving a small footprint, etc. I'm kinda vexed right now, because I also see myself getting into greening homes. For example, getting into the business of permaculture, water harvesting, solar power, hydrogen, grey water...things that you can do to homes to conserve energy and make it more earth friendly, to be short.

cerewa - yeah law school, i know what you mean. i honestly don't know if i'm the type of person to do that. although i'm good at school when I want to be, I really don't enjoy sitting down and doing book work. I see what you mean about setting policy for city planners. ay ay ay

*cough - If I'm just taking orders...screw that! That would suck to get the masters degree, and then in agony have to spend my days designing cities for the flippin car. Maybe I will just work a year or two. I guess I can always get my masters, unless I die soon. Also, the idea of advocating sounds good... well, the idea that a simple person like me can help change the way my world is shaped.

As far as the other forums mentioned, like cyburbia...I've been checking those out and they have been awesome. I think I learn things faster by reading forums than any other type of learning material.

I got my BS in planning...ended up a park ranger...wanted to be a rock star. Nothing ever really works out the way you planned it now, does it. You can get a planning gig without a Master's. I found the entire planning thing very interesting in theory, but boring in practice. The ranger gig's cool, but I should have sold my soul and tired a little harder at the music thing. Anyways, as the Butthole Surfers once said, "It's better to regret something you have done than something you have not done". I think that's accurate, unless you're a serial killer.

hahaha

see i got the rocker thing going on too.

but i think i just want to help the environment more, for some reason.

Sad news: Jane Jacobs died today at age 89 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/books/25cnd-jacobs.html?hp&ex=1146024000&en=c74b882dbb18bb74&ei=5094&partner=homepage).

Your mileage may vary, but in my opinion some college degrees are an amazing deal. I've never gone to a $30,000-per-year college and I don't think it would be worth it. But if you're talking about a university that gets most of its money from the government such as ____-State University, I think you get a lot for your money. You might have to take out a lot of loans, but you can make a lot of money if you get an employment-related degree. Maybe I shouldn't encourage you to go to law school*, but politics is where it's at if you want to help set policy for city planners, and law school seems like a good way to get involved in politics.

*because I'm a law student
As someone with a pretty useless psychology degree from the University of Washington, I agree with much of this. Many bachelors and even graduate degrees aren't worthwhile, especially in this era of specialization. Unless you have a strong, definite career focus in a field that is practical (many job openings like health care, IT, etc.), just getting a degree for the sake of a degree is waste of time/money. You seem really interested in urban planning, which is great, but as other have implied, that's a very competitive field. There just aren't that many urban planning jobs relative to the number of applicants.

My advice for you is to CagerTools is this: Since you are just finishing your bachelors, take some time off from school. Get some experience in the 'real' world. The world of work and life is very different from academia, and this will give you a different perspecive on what you might want to do. Also, you need to take into account your own situation - if you have parents or someone else willing to pay for an advanced degree, why not take advantage of it? A masters in urban planning certainly won't hurt you. But if you are paying for a degree yourself (work, loans, etc.), I'd do some serious deliberating before spending tens of thousands of dollars on a degree you might not use.

That is too bad about Jane Jacobs. What an amazing woman. Sounds like she lived a good, long life though.

- belinda

AlanK - thanks for the input. Yeah, I would be paying for the masters myself. I have taken a year off school, where I traveled/lived/worked in California. Now I'm back at the Uni that I started at. I actually used to live in La Jolla, the most expensive place to live in California. It was terrible... I had a job at a coffeeshop, only supporting myself and living there because my gf (at the time) was there... At one point I realized, I was working...so that I could afford a place to live, just so I could go to work. It was horrible. I was in some sort of hellish cycle I never could have dreamed of.

So I know I need to make money in this world. I know that when I start having to pay my bills...that I'll pretty much have to wake up every morning and go to work. But I want to try to get around that as much as possible. I know that I want to live as simply as possible now, so I don't HAVE to make a lot of money, and hopefully save money...Eventually I want to have investments that earn interest...which will in turn pay for my monthly expenses, which I learned from this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140286780/sr=8-1/qid=1146054057/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2331478-8029752?%5Fencoding=UTF8). Basically, I want to get to a point where I don't have to work for money. But that will probably take some time. Especially now that I want to get laser eye surgery :) But with laser, I'll actually be saving money in the long run, provided I pay off my credit card fast enough.

So, as far as the planning masters, I still haven't been able to come to a decision...but with the input of everyone on this board, I think I'm coming closer. I think I may just hold off on the masters degree for now. I want to explore my community better, and get involved more. I want to explore sustainability, the psychology of why people live the way they do, and how to better tackle certain problems. I'll probably get a job thats bicycle related in the meantime. I also want to get a house and do this (www.pathtofreedom.com (http://www.pathtofreedom.com))

I also still have time to decide to get a masters...as I still have the summer, and one more semester, left until i'm done with my degree. My degree is annoying me, because I wish I could be spending my time reading and absorbing material on stuff I want to do, but instead I have to read about neural basis of consciousness, what chemicals are in my pee, the existence of god, why i shouldn't abuse cocaine, and other fun things. Some of it is interesting, but I'm getting sick of spending hours listening to some professor drone on about stuff while there is a REAL OUTSIDE WORLD that I want to change...and get involved in.