Are you inticed to live far from work?

[Dahon.Steve]

Gas Prices Up Sharply Ahead of Peak Season

By Steven Mufson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 4, 2006; Page A01

"People are wealthier, they've been enticed into buying homes further from work, and the auto industry has been enticing them into buying very inefficient vehicles," said Philip K. Verleger, an oil consultant. He estimates that it takes a 20 percent increase in price to trim consumption by 1 percent today while a 10 percent price increase in the 1970s would have an identical effect.

Nonetheless, angry motorists are already sending e-mails to AAA complaining about the higher prices. One accused local gasoline stations of "price gouging" and claimed prices go up twice a day at some places.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/03/AR2006040301788.html

Here's a good article folks about gas prices being higher this year than 2005, and the driving season hasn't started! What else is new? I didn't want to make this into another "Glad I don't have to pay those high gas prices" thread.

What I want to know is do you believe what Mr. Verleger, an oil consultant stated about getting wealthier and moving further out. I'm begining to believe there's something true to what he said because it's becoming increasingly difficult to live ANYWHERE near the city unless you intend to be a renter. I love my neighborhood, but I'll never be a homeowner but more like a condo owner because the prices are insane. Having said that, it's just about impossible to live 20 or 30 miles away from the city too because homes in those areas are also out of reach.

To be honest, if you move out into the burbs due to increased wealth forcing you to drive on crowded highways, all I can say is, you asked it. It's often these same individuals who complain about gas prices, but they have nobody to blame but themselves. It's incredible how little people think about these things until it's too late.

I've never been enticed to live so far from work requiring a 50 mile drive or more for a paycheck. Those jobs are just unattractive and I won't work there and refuse to become a slave to a motorcar. Once you include the cost of motor transport, the price of living in the burbs averages about the same as living closer to the city.

Bottom line, I never had a job that could not be reached by bicycle, bus or train and I intend to keep it that way.

[Roody]

I would not galdly live more than 5 miles from work.

The long term solution is decentralized communities where jobs are near the homes. I don't know if it will ever happen.

[noisebeam]

Round here houses gets cheaper the futher ones lives outside the suburb/city.
There was a story in the paper the last time gas spiked about a couple who bought a house 40mi or so from work because they could get a much bigger one for the same price. Then they couldn't afford car/house payments anymore cause their gas costs spiked.
Al

[noisebeam]

This isn't the article I was thinking of, but it is related.
Al
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0909GasDrive09.html
Some afford homes, fret over gas

Carl Holcombe
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 9, 2005 12:00 AM

The rush for cheaper homes in the west Valley and Pinal County is catching up to some homeowners feeling the pangs of gasoline costs that have soared past $3 a gallon.

Their flight to affordability is now a struggle to make mortgage payments, as families drops hundreds of dollars per month more into gas tanks, enduring 100-mile roundtrip commutes while worrying about losing what will likely be the biggest investment of their lifetime.

Newlyweds Jennifer and Samuel Sayles moved from San Diego and bought their first home in late June in Gilbert.

With precise budgeting and by limiting personal spending to $40 each per week, they could afford their 1,800-square-foot, $235,000 house - until gasoline prices ripped through the roof of their dreams.

"We want to avoid selling; that's our ultimate fear," Jennifer Sayles said.

The young couple plans to put their home on the rental market and look to rent a small, cheap one-bedroom apartment closer to their jobs in downtown Phoenix.

Even with their fuel-efficient compact cars, the roughly $75 more per month for gas hurts.

Gasoline prices have increased about 50 percent Valley-wide since July 1, according to the American Automobile Association's Phoenix office,

Still, prices would probably maintain current levels for months before significant effects are felt, said Jay Butler, director of the Arizona Real Estate Center at Arizona State University's Polytechnic campus.

"If you live 'out there,' you make trade-offs," Butler said. "You may give up one trip a week to a restaurant. But if you're looking for a home, you may take it into serious consideration."

The Sayles have so far eliminated San Diego visits, cut off their cable TV to save $50 a month, left the thermostat at 85 degrees and don't buy new clothes Shutting off their cellphones may be next, as well as selling their interest in a time-share condo to save $200 a month.

"We're basically barricading ourselves in our house," Sayles said. "We want to get out and mingle and see what the town has to offer, but we can't. I just turned 21 in July, and I'm staying home on Saturday nights playing Monopoly. It's my favorite game now."

City of Maricopa residents Mathew and Rachele Reese got a great deal two years ago on their 2,400-square-foot house. Mathew retired from the Maricopa Unified School District and things looked financially bright when he took a job at Apache Junction as a charter school principal in early June when gas cost about $1.70.

Now, his wallet's nearly running on empty as twice weekly fill-ups for his Toyota Corolla cost $80 instead of $40.

"It makes me want to look at the want-ads and find something closer," Reese said.

Barbara Parsons likes her big house in San Tan Heights,but she doesn't like her 124-mile roundtrip commute to an engineering job at Union Hills and Interstate 17 in Phoenix.

She usually drives a Chrysler Sebring, but Pinal County and southern Maricopa County's poor road system sometimes force her to take a gas-guzzling SUV to get through rough or flooded roads, which further drives up costs. And it makes it tough for friends to visit.

"I don't go out on weekends, and people won't come see me in San Tan," Parsons said. "So my social life suffers."

Buckeye residents Sean and Kristy Grippo, who moved in January from the Sacramento area to buy a house, have felt the pinch. Sean drives around Phoenix and to Tucson for work. He gets reimbursed for mileage, but those rates haven't kept pace with fuel price surges.

"It's impacting our finances quite a bit, but we're on a tight budget anyway," Kristy said. "We're getting to the point of worrying about our mortgage."

Boston transplants Mike and Stephanie Paesano bought a 3,100-square-foot Paradise Valley home for the same price as a 1,500-square-foot home back East.

But they're spending $800 a month on gas.

"We're pretty much stuck in the pool and hanging out at home," Mike said.

[-=£em in Pa=-]

I am changing careers since my move to Vermont to
make sure I do not have to drive to work. This is costing me about
20,000 in salary but the quality of life is ....Priceless :roflmao:

[Dahon.Steve]

Round here houses gets cheaper the futher ones lives outside the suburb/city.
There was a story in the paper the last time gas spiked about a couple who bought a house 40mi or so from work because they could get a much bigger one for the same price. Then they couldn't afford car/house payments anymore cause their gas costs spiked.
Al

If an increase in the price of gas puts you over the edge, that means you purchased too much house and cut it right on the edge. I guess their realtor sold them a home they really couldn't afford.

[noisebeam]

If an increase in the price of gas puts you over the edge, that means you purchased too much house and cut it right on the edge. I guess their realtor sold them a home they really couldn't afford.
Absolutely. Its insane how people who have a choice put themselves so close to the edge (and knowingly beyond) financially.
Al

[Caspar_s]

So they are complaining about being "stuck at home" when they purposely bought one further away that was twice as large? What the heck are you buying a 3100 square foot house for if not to be in it?

My wife and I rent. Last year I earned Cdn$20 000. My wife has been without a job nursing a torn rotator cuff and recovering from stress from working with the public. We also paid off the 8 acres we started buying 5 years ago. Rent takes $9000, not sure about food, but there obviously isn't much left. We still go out to restaurants and get out to see people. Oh wait, of course - we bike.

[Simplebiker]

Well my job is in the suburbs, and I would rather live in DC, so I guess I am enticed to live far from my job. I moved from DC to Alexandria a few months ago. My commute of 1 mile is of no effect on a bicycle. I want my 9.5 mile one way commute back. [:)]

I rarely see the logic in moving 50 miles from your job and then complaining about traffic or the cost of gas. We all know the strange people in the city will only attack you every other day. And yes, living 1500 squ ft, might not allow me to buy as much stuff as I could if I had 3000 squ ft. and I might have to spend less money on maintenance because there is less yard and structure to maintain, but I just might be able to force myself to deal with those terrible consequences.

[-=£em in Pa=-]

:roflmao: "With precise budgeting and by limiting personal spending to $40 each per week, they could afford their 1,800-square-foot, $235,000 house ........" :roflmao:

Im trying to be sympathetic...really, I am.

[Az B]

We used to live in the country and moved closer in specifically to be closer to our jobs. I'm 2.5 miles from work, my wife is about 10, but her company moved slightly farther away shortly after we moved here.

Our old house was larger and cheaper, but our new house was apparaised for $50k more than we paid for it 2 years later, so it's a better overall investment.

Az

[AlanK]

Round here houses gets cheaper the futher ones lives outside the suburb/city.
There was a story in the paper the last time gas spiked about a couple who bought a house 40mi or so from work because they could get a much bigger one for the same price. Then they couldn't afford car/house payments anymore cause their gas costs spiked.
Al
The pattern of progressively less expensive housing outside the city generally holds true in most cities. It's a question of what you value amd trade-offs: If you value space, then you have to accept the trade-off of a longer commute; if you value the convenience of living in the city, then you accept the trade-off of less space. Financially, the longer commute might have made sense when gas was $1.50/gal, but not any more. Most US residents are so myopic :rolleyes:

Sometimes I wish my commute were further so I could have a longer bike ride home:D , but it's still more sensible for me to live close by because it gives me more options: If I can't bike to work, it's still pretty easy to use public transit.

[noisebeam]

:roflmao: "With precise budgeting and by limiting personal spending to $40 each per week, they could afford their 1,800-square-foot, $235,000 house ........" :roflmao:

Im trying to be sympathetic...really, I am.
Its sick, it really is.

Al

[digger]

I own a home, 2600 sq ft about 35km (22 miles) from work. I own 2 vehicles, Ford Ranger 4 cyl (31 MPG) and Hyundai Elantra 4cyl (32 mpg).

This house cost me $168,000 (CDN) including 1 acre of land. This same house with a postage stamp size lot in town would be $250,000.

I have never lived so far from work and it was a long thought process on whether or not we wanted to move out there (just recently changed cities and where living in an apartment for 1.5 years).

In the end, we did not like what we saw by way of house prices and were they where located and the restrictions placed on what you could and couldn't do. The cycling was better out side of town, both road and MTB. As well as snowshoeing and hiking possibilities. Quieter, less crime, nicer people (for the most part).

The point is, if we lived in town, with 2 vehicles we would be paying out more per month even though we would burn less gas. No not enviromently freindly, but consider that:
1) We commute together in the one vehicle and we have only 1 vehicle payment of $257/mth. Less gas burnt.
2) I can leave my house for a ride instead of dragging the bike in a car. Less gas burnt.
3) I can leave my house for a hike or snowshoeing without driving there. Less gas burnt.

In the end, I think we are paying less than if we live in town and we had already decided that we needed 2 vehicles anyway (well, maybe not NEEDED, but it sure is more convienant).

I don't complain about the price of gas nor the traffic. I think that I am the only one in my office who hopes gas goes up to $2 per litre. I'd gladly pay it. On the nice days I could then ride to work, as (hopefully) more people will be off the ride (scoff!)

Digger

[Roody]

No not enviromently freindly, but consider that:
1) We commute together in the one vehicle and we have only 1 vehicle payment of $257/mth. Less gas burnt.
2) I can leave my house for a ride instead of dragging the bike in a car. Less gas burnt.
3) I can leave my house for a hike or snowshoeing without driving there. Less gas burnt.
Digger
You're right about your lifestyle not being environmentally friendly. Besides the gasoline, you're burning a hell of a lot of fossil fuel to heat the mansion.

Have you considered another angle to your 3 rationales that I quoted above?


$275/month car payment would probably cover the difference in cost of the city house, maybe with some left over for bike gear.
Many of us have great rides (fitness or recreational) that start in the city. Once you get used to urban riding, it's really a lot of fun. And obviously the exercise benefits are equal.
I ride my bike 10 or 12 miles into the country for hikes, canoing, winter hiking, etc. This makes for a real pleasant day trip. When I have less time, I hike in nature centers that are right in the city. Also fun.


I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, just informing you that there are ways to make urban living with a bike enjoyable.

Maybe some others will give their ideas on how you could live carfree in the suburban mansion.

[patc]

The point is, if we lived in town, with 2 vehicles we would be paying out more per month even though we would burn less gas.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can justify even one motor vehicle in town, much less two!

[digger]

You're right about your lifestyle not being environmentally friendly. Besides the gasoline, you're burning a hell of a lot of fossil fuel to heat the mansion.

Have you considered another angle to your 3 rationales that I quoted above?


$275/month car payment would probably cover the difference in cost of the city house, maybe with some left over for bike gear.
Many of us have great rides (fitness or recreational) that start in the city. Once you get used to urban riding, it's really a lot of fun. And obviously the exercise benefits are equal.
I ride my bike 10 or 12 miles into the country for hikes, canoing, winter hiking, etc. This makes for a real pleasant day trip. When I have less time, I hike in nature centers that are right in the city. Also fun.


I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, just informing you that there are ways to make urban living with a bike enjoyable.

Maybe some others will give their ideas on how you could live carfree in the suburban mansion.

It's hardly a mansion. 2300 sq ft is a 44 foot by 28 foot house. It's an L shaped bungelow, R2000 certified. My monthly oil bill, averaged out over 12 months is $130 (CDN).

I doubt the extra $257 would pay for a $250,000 house. Besides, we decided we need an extra vehicle.

Sure, one can ride their bike to the hiking spot, but let's see, a 35km ride to get to the hiking spot, hike 15 - 20km, ride 35 km back. Quite a day! Plus I doubt I'd be able to ride that in winter for snowshoeing. I also cannot see draggging my canoe 70km round trip behind a bike.

I HAVE lived in the city, plus in my old home town. Back then I regularly rode my bike to work (15km round trip, then 22km when we moved) and we owned one car. Bigger city and things change. Like I said, it was a long thought out decision on our part (my wife and I) on whether or not to do this. We ran the numbers, looked around town and decided this was the best choice for us.

Yes, I am sure that everyone CAN come up with all kinds of things to make urban living possible with a bicycle. But those ideas will be based on little information, other than what I told you in my original post, it was a personal decision and really just too much to type here.

Like I said, to make Envio friendly choices my wife and I drive to work together. There are times I have waited up to 2 hours for her, many people would say screw that and take seperate vehicles. Before it is brought up, yes, I could have ridden the distance home in that amount of time, but it doesn't happen everyday.

My point and to answer the orginal posters question, was that even though I do live outside of town, I do not complain about gas prices nor about traffic. I'd gladly pay the gas price. BUT there are things I can do, even though I live suburban, to make good choices. If the gas goes up high enough, maybe it'll take most of the motorists off the road and then I'd be able to ride in fairly safely.:rolleyes:

BUT, other than those who work outside of town, where would all those people live if they ALL decided to move in town? That's alot of people!

[digger]

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can justify even one motor vehicle in town, much less two!


All about lifestayle. What our interests are, what we do on the weekends, etc.

It seems as if that's the way it's gonna work. I'm paying for the convienence.

[patc]

All about lifestayle. What our interests are, what we do on the weekends, etc.

It seems as if that's the way it's gonna work. I'm paying for the convienence.

Sorry, but not, its not about lifestyle. Its about some people enjoying luxuries at the expense of others, particularly the health of their neighbours. I don't normally rant on about these things but this is the Living Car Free forum, and I call multi-car households irresponsible. I wouldn't poison my neighbhour's food for my convenience, so why would I poison his air?

Unfortunately the convenience aspect is usually the deciding factor for most peopple. Social responsibility isn't very popular these days :(

[digger]

Sorry, but not, its not about lifestyle. Its about some people enjoying luxuries at the expense of others, particularly the health of their neighbours. I don't normally rant on about these things but this is the Living Car Free forum, and I call multi-car households irresponsible. I wouldn't poison my neighbhour's food for my convenience, so why would I poison his air?

Unfortunately the convenience aspect is usually the deciding factor for most peopple. Social responsibility isn't very popular these days :(


Well, I do my best, I think, certainly more than others that are in my situation.

I could live underneath the pine tree outside the main door to work so I don't have to own a bike which comes with rubber tires, paint, plastics, and requires grease and oil. Plus, that'll reduce wear and tear on my sneakers for walking to work. That way I do not have to heat a house or even a tent nor burn fuel to cook for myself, I'll just wrap myself up in newspapers and beg for handouts.

But thinking harder on this, I'd have to quite work to be more socialy responsible. You see, I work on a ship a certain portion of the year (varies) and the ships engines are running 24/7 in order to supply power to the computers that we use, to process the hydrographic data we collect, in order to provide safe routes for shipping, that supply your goods that you consume - the computer you're typing on, the clothes you wear, the materials for the building you are living in, the food you eat (do you grow your own?), the utensils you use to eat with, the bulbs that light your way, and oh, yes, most likely the bike you ride and the gear you need for it.

The only other option I CAN see is to throw myself off a cliff into the ocean below, but a lifetime of eating perservatives in my food is now coursing throw my body and will most likely contaminate the oceans.

About 5 years ago I joined up with an enviromental group here in town (http://www.ecologyaction.ca) did some work with them but have since dropped out to take up a newer project in my community. Anyway, I still get the group emails and someone posted that she did not understand why everyone was encouraging the use of Smart Cars. They still use fossil fuels, they still maim and kill, they still require the infrastructure that paves 1/3 of our cities, and they still pollute. Someone posted back that her point of view was like stating the Koyoto agreement was not worth the paper it was written on because it does not ban the use of all fossil fuels. This poster went onto say that he would much rather share the road with smart cars that the large SUVs and that these people where making responsible choices.

Living car free is certainly a great choice and my hats off to anyone who does, you certainly are making the effort and are practicing what you preach, more than some, definetly more than I.

I'm all for being socially responsible, but life goes on, I do my part and I make scarifices and (I hope) good decisions and is all we can ask of anyone.

[kf5nd]

Alternative Point of View

I live 24 miles from work, deep in Texas sprawl-burbia... if I lived any closer in, I wouldn't get the fantastic exercise that I get from riding on the roads everywhere ! If I lived 5 miles from work, hell, I wouldn't even be warmed up by the time I'd have to get off the bike!

If it's raining, I just carpool.

I guess I have the best of all worlds... nice new house, big yard with organic garden, built-in great road workouts, and carpooling co-workers who live nearby, we all ride in together fly down the HOV lane!

[Roody]

Alternative Point of View

I live 24 miles from work, deep in Texas sprawl-burbia... if I lived any closer in, I wouldn't get the fantastic exercise that I get from riding on the roads everywhere ! If I lived 5 miles from work, hell, I wouldn't even be warmed up by the time I'd have to get off the bike!

If it's raining, I just carpool.

I guess I have the best of all worlds... nice new house, big yard with organic garden, built-in great road workouts, and carpooling co-workers who live nearby, we all ride in together fly down the HOV lane!

This is the kind of post i was hoping to see. You have provided some practical suggestions for people living in the exurban mansions to become carfree or less dependent on their cars. I hope this inspires digger to use his cars much less, and maybe even get rid of one of them. The point is, many "lifestyles" can support carfree and carlite transportation, but many are too close-minded to explore the possibilities.

[digger]

This is the kind of post i was hoping to see. You have provided some practical suggestions for people living in the exurban mansions to become carfree or less dependent on their cars. I hope this inspires digger to use his cars much less, and maybe even get rid of one of them. The point is, many "lifestyles" can support carfree and carlite transportation, but many are too close-minded to explore the possibilities.


Ugh, I give up. You're not reading my post, only picking up bits and pieces and what you want to hear.

[Roody]

It's hardly a mansion. 2300 sq ft is a 44 foot by 28 foot house. It's an L shaped bungelow, R2000 certified. My monthly oil bill, averaged out over 12 months is $130 (CDN). Of course to 99 % of the world's population, a 2300 sq. foot house is a mansion, unless you have 8 or 10 people living there. That's OK, I don't begrudge you your mansion, but realize how fortunate you are to live in it, and be aware of the environmental consequences of living so high off the hog.

I doubt the extra $257 would pay for a $250,000 house. Besides, we decided we need an extra vehicle. "Need"? Why?


Sure, one can ride their bike to the hiking spot, but let's see, a 35km ride to get to the hiking spot, hike 15 - 20km, ride 35 km back. Quite a day! Plus I doubt I'd be able to ride that in winter for snowshoeing. I also cannot see draggging my canoe 70km round trip behind a bike.This is one of the most often given rationales for keeping a car. If you drove your car ONLY to trailheads and put-ins, I would buy this as a good reason. But you said you use your car for a lot of other purposes as well. Have you ever tried to think about other options? Try searching this forum for many ideas, if you're really interested.

I HAVE lived in the city, plus in my old home town. Back then I regularly rode my bike to work (15km round trip, then 22km when we moved) and we owned one car. Bigger city and things change. Like I said, it was a long thought out decision on our part (my wife and I) on whether or not to do this. We ran the numbers, looked around town and decided this was the best choice for us.
As you adapt to your new lifestyle, you'll probably consider some other alternatives to your car dependent transport choices.

Like I said, to make Envio friendly choices my wife and I drive to work together. There are times I have waited up to 2 hours for her, many people would say screw that and take seperate vehicles. Before it is brought up, yes, I could have ridden the distance home in that amount of time, but it doesn't happen everyday.

I think it's great that you're doing this. ( I assume that you weren't waiting in the car with the motor running. :)) Any other enviro-friendly choices you could suggest for people living in a similar situation? I didn't get a full sense of what you're actually doing from your posts so far.

My point and to answer the orginal posters question, was that even though I do live outside of town, I do not complain about gas prices nor about traffic. I'd gladly pay the gas price. BUT there are things I can do, even though I live suburban, to make good choices. If the gas goes up high enough, maybe it'll take most of the motorists off the road and then I'd be able to ride in fairly safely.:rolleyes:

BUT, other than those who work outside of town, where would all those people live if they ALL decided to move in town? That's alot of people!
In this context, i don't really see it a matter of where you live, but how you live. The Commuting subforum gives lots of advice on riding safely to work, and if you need to hone your traffic riding skills, check out the Advocacy & Safety forum.

[patc]

Ugh, I give up. You're not reading my post, only picking up bits and pieces and what you want to hear.

(I'm not Roody but...) What did you expect? This is the living car-free forum. Many of us are here because we feel car use in urban centres is unacceptable, period. Its doesn't matter to me what else you may do in your life, or how else you live, the only issue I am addressing in this forum is the car issue. Environmentally is one of the few issues that has an extreme and direct impact on others; economically it has a huge impact (look up your municipality's road budget!); and the impact in terms of land use if obvious: asphalt and concrete instead of green spaces.

[Roody]

Ugh, I give up. You're not reading my post, only picking up bits and pieces and what you want to hear.
I am reading your posts, just not agreeing with everything I read. Sorry.

I don't know you, but from the posts here I see you as a person who is sincere about wanting to help the environment, but it sounds like you need more information to help you put your ideals into practice. If I'm wrong about this, I'll quit bugging you.

[folder fanatic]

This forum is for car free people (and car lite-one car-for people that need a car for some things). I think the best way for us aware people who live the life, walk the walk, talk the talk, ride the bike should not point fingers, but offer some inspiration for others who are not so incline to do so yet. I get funny stares, laughs, etc. everytime I use one of my specialty bikes (folders and a vintage bike) to get around in a town that is the car capital of the US and probably the world. When the reverse becomes true and there is a transit strike, fuel prices permamently spins out of control, car is too expensive to keep and run, word of mouth and support is the way-not bike snobbery or car bashing.

[kf5nd]

Ahhhh, it's not perfect but we try. And I'm the only person I know who lives this way, out of 25,000 in the area. But maybe someone will copy me... after all, I copied someone else.

Central Houston is being marketed as being more of a bike/ped friendly place, more uber-cool metrosexual lifestyle, yadda yadda, but DAMN when I took a ride to the zoo a couple of weeks ago, I had a bad near miss inside the central city. The central city is still choked with cars, as bad as the suburbs, and the drivers are soooo agressive.

I like riding in the suburbs and country better.

And my wife will not give up her vegetable garden. At least we have a hope of feeding ourselves post Peak Oil.



This is the kind of post i was hoping to see. You have provided some practical suggestions for people living in the exurban mansions to become carfree or less dependent on their cars. I hope this inspires digger to use his cars much less, and maybe even get rid of one of them. The point is, many "lifestyles" can support carfree and carlite transportation, but many are too close-minded to explore the possibilities.

[patc]

Ahhhh, it's not perfect but we try. And I'm the only person I know who lives this way, out of 25,000 in the area. But maybe someone will copy me... after all, I copied someone else.

And some people do pay attention, leading by example works. One of our local news anchors (Kimothy Walker, CJOH) lives out in the 'burbs, but makes a point of telling people whenever there is a story on public transit that she drives to the nearest park-and-ride lot and leaves her car there, taking public transit into the urban core. This type of hybrid commuting is a great way for those who live out of town to commute more responsibly.

Yes, I do feel strongly about this issue, but that is because I have seen my quality of life take a sharp downturn in the last five years. Our number of smog warning days has doubled. We have lost of great deal of greenspace in our area to wider roads, and one of the last true forested areas (i.e. not a groomed park) is slated to become a new freeway. Traffic volumes are up thanks to the new condos going up all around as well. This only gets worse closer to downtown.

[Roody]

. . . I get funny stares, laughs, etc. everytime I use one of my specialty bikes (folders and a vintage bike) to get around in a town that is the car capital of the US and probably the world. When the reverse becomes true and there is a transit strike, fuel prices permamently spins out of control, car is too expensive to keep and run, word of mouth and support is the way-not bike snobbery or car bashing.
I thought I lived in the car capitol. They always used to say Lansing built more cars than any othe American city. Where do you live that claims to be car capitol? I guess one of us should do some googling. . . . .

[attercoppe]

It's hardly a mansion. 2300 sq ft is a 44 foot by 28 foot house. It's an L shaped bungelow, R2000 certified. My monthly oil bill, averaged out over 12 months is $130 (CDN).

Actually, a 44 by 28 ft house would be only 1232 square feet. A 2500 sq ft house (closer to your original figure of 2600) would be 50 by 50.



I doubt the extra $257 would pay for a $250,000 house.

Are you saying your house cost a quarter of a million dollars? I call that far too much house for two people, even considering the inflated market these days.

[patc]

Are you saying your house cost a quarter of a million dollars? I call that far too much house for two people, even considering the inflated market these days.

You'd be surprised. In Ottawa a 2-bedroom condo row-house well away from downtown (but still urban) starts at $175,000 CAD. A one-bedroom apartment condo downtown will start at about $200,000 CAD. That's the market these days, we bough our row-house seven years ago - 3 bedrooms plus finished basement for $77,000 CAD!

[Roody]

You'd be surprised. In Ottawa a 2-bedroom condo row-house well away from downtown (but still urban) starts at $175,000 CAD. A one-bedroom apartment condo downtown will start at about $200,000 CAD. That's the market these days, we bough our row-house seven years ago - 3 bedrooms plus finished basement for $77,000 CAD!
So that's about a buck 75 US?

:)

[patc]

So that's about a buck 75 US?

:)


Not anymore, Roody, not anymore. Have you looked at the exchange rate lately?

[Roody]

Not anymore, Roody, not anymore. Have you looked at the exchange rate lately?
No...I've spent a lot of time in Canada, but not in the last couple years. I've been in every province, but not in the territories. I grew up in Detroit, once a part of your country and the only place in the world that is north of Canada.

[patc]

No...I've spent a lot of time in Canada, but not in the last couple years. I've been in every province, but not in the territories. I grew up in Detroit, once a part of your country and the only place in the world that is north of Canada.

:p

Its running around $1CAD = $0.87USD these days. Actually a problem for our economy, but we can't do much about it - according to economists, its not so much our dollar going up as yours going down. I'm not complaining, just enjoying the cheap cross-border shopping :D

Speaking of territories, I really want to get up to Nunavut some time. There is just something cool about visiting a territory that wasn't on the map when I was born.

[digger]

Actually, a 44 by 28 ft house would be only 1232 square feet. A 2500 sq ft house (closer to your original figure of 2600) would be 50 by 50..

The house has a basement - i.e. 2 levels.



Are you saying your house cost a quarter of a million dollars? I call that far too much house for two people, even considering the inflated market these days.

No, what I said was the house and land cost $168,000. In TOWN it costs $250,000.
(Plus $5000 for property tax VS. my $1200).

This is what I mean, people half read the posts, and only read what they want to read.:rolleyes:


**************************************************************

I said I wasn't going to do this and drop out of this discussion as it seems as if it was going to soon turn into name-calling and besides we aren't going to get anywhere.

The OP stated that people who live rural complain about traffic and gas prices and that we asked for it. I do not, never had. I DO complain about traffic on my bike though and right now gas is at $1.14 per litre which explains why the past 2 rides have seen less than the normal amount of traffic, not alot, but less. When it goes up to $1.40, like it did last August, there'll be even less. Well...until everyone gets accustomed to it.

To add fuel to everyone’s argument (and take the wind out of mine), there is a gentlemen, same age as me, who lives about 1km down the road, rides his bike to work in the summer. He and his wife have one car. His wife teaches pilates and such things in this area. He does ALOT of racing (mostly MTB) and uses that commute as a training run. He's bloody fast.:o

Since my wife and I work pretty close together and she will not ride to work (please don't go there) we go in together. But her schedule can be screwy. For example, winter and summer of 2004 she would work 12 noon to 8pm, 2 days per week. My work allows me to adjust my hours which I did, for those 2 days, so we could drive in together. I had tried to convince a co-worker, who lives in the area, to commute together for those 2 days (that way I didn't have to change my hours). She tried it, but thought it too inconvenient. Of course, you're going to say to me, "well why not RIDE to work those 2 days". Guys, I'm just not comfortable with the line of traffic, doing 100km/h, on a dark highway. Yes, that gentleman I mentioned lives almost right next to me and HE rides to work, but he leaves at 9am to be at work for 10:30am. "Ok, so adjust your hours to do that then right?" That means I get home later in the evening. Well, by the time I prepare and eat supper, do the things that I want and have to do (do I have to justify THAT now?) the evening gets chewed up.

I selected the land we have as it is only about 4km from a small strip mall which contains the necessities such as a fairly nice grocery store, drugstore, etc. I regularly ride my bike there (in summer only) if I am picking up or dropping off a rental movie or just getting 1 or 2 small items.

Now the question of why 2 vehicles. Well....that was a long drawn out discussion between my wife and I and quite a personal decision that most likely will not mean alot to you guys. By personal I do not mean private but rather...important to us. It's the first time we owned 2 vehicles and I didn't want to get into the expense (nor did my wife really but she was more agreeable to it). I had spent 10 years in my old home town riding to and from work and about 1.5 years in this new province doing the same until we moved out of town. But here goes:

My wife is involved with a group (http://www.sca.org/) that has regular 'events' all over the province as well as PEI and NB, sometimes down into Maine. Her areas of interest in this group are dancing, crafts and archery. Any one event can mean anyone of these activities are being done as well as others. Anyway, their is alot of 'stuff' needed for such a group - sewing machine, fabric, bows, arrows, dancing music, stereo, food, etc, etc, etc. She needs a vehicle to lug all this stuff, and guess what!!?? She'll pick up a couple of her friends who do not drive so they can all go together. I guess what they do is very similar to someone who has already posted posted that he'll do that...bum rides off others when he needs to?)

In addition to this group she's very busy with her work and is constantly traveling with her co-workers to conferences, meetings, etc. I'd rather not have to type all that out to justify that, ok?

PLUS, when she is not going to these events they have dance practice, archery practice and other such things to PLAN for these events.

Anyway, she's gone in the car quite a bit. So with that car and me misses gone, I have a few choices sure. Ride my bike in the area, hike in the area, canoe in the area. Sure and I do. BUT I also want to go on group rides, or attend bicycle events (http://www.atlanticcanadacycling.com/), hike other areas, bring my dog (who probably isn't inclined to sit in a bike trailer for 1-2 hours while I get to the trailhead), try canoeing in other places, etc. Plus, I am a member of the Ground Search and Rescue for my area (http://www.esgsar.org/) and on call 24/7 AND although they provide a very old school bus as transportation, let me tell ya, after 12 hours of trashing through the woods, being eaten alive by mosquitoes, soaking wet, cold, tired and what ever else, looking for some twit who thinks he is 'The Great White Hunter" and can't read a map getting in your own vehicle and getting the hell home out of it sure is nice (the bus has to stay, it is the HQ). Also, having an acre of land and a new house to work on (yes, there are things to work on in a new house) it sure is convenient to have a small truck to do and get the things I 'need' to work on my home.

Before you bring it up again, we choose not to live in town because we did not like what we saw there. You may have, we don't.

This second vehicle, I have had almost 2 years now (bought second hand), and have put just shy of 25,000km on it, is a 4 cylinder, manual transmission basic Ford Ranger and not some penis extension. It is licensed as a 'recreational' vehicle which means that it is basically used on weekends for example, and is not a commuting vehicle.

I do not think I am being 'irresponsible' or 'close-minded' and that I am making good choices. Most people would not go through the effort of what I do. You guys, are certainly doing great, but everyone's situation is different and does not fit into your mold.

I have looked at all of this, ran the numbers again and again, puzzled and puzzled until my puzzler was sore. It is the best situation for us, maybe not for the planet, but each one of you, just by your existence and want for food, water, shelter and heat is not doing the best for the planet either. But I am doing my part and still living my life and enjoying my time here, hopefully not at the expense of others, and I'll say it again, is all we can ask of anyone. You have focused on one aspect of daily human lives - the automobile. Great! Keep it up! Let’s reduce our dependency!

Jeez, this is enough typing for me and is all I can type. Yeah I know, excuses, excuses right?

Digger

P.s. Please pardon my spelling and grammar mistakes, I grow tired, it's past my bedtime.

[attercoppe]

I said I wasn't going to do this and drop out of this discussion as it seems as if it was going to soon turn into name-calling and besides we aren't going to get anywhere.

Guys, I'm just not comfortable with the line of traffic, doing 100km/h, on a dark highway...

Now the question of why 2 vehicles...

My wife is involved with a group (http://www.sca.org/)...

This second vehicle...

I do not think I am being 'irresponsible' or 'close-minded' and that I am making good choices. Most people would not go through the effort of what I do. You guys, are certainly doing great, but everyone's situation is different and does not fit into your mold.

I think the problem we have is that this is the LIVING CAR FREE forum. Read the sticky regarding what this forum is for. If you have a car, or two cars, or a bunch, whatever, but we don't want to hear about it here. We aren't interested in your explanations of why, either. If you want to drive less, need help doing so, etc, we're here to help. But don't troll this forum with stuff that doesn't relate to car-free living. No, not everyone fits into "our mold" - but why are those people here, and posting about their cars? They can have their own forum on another site, and we won't come troll them.

P.S. I find it very interesting that your wife "has to" have a car for her SCA stuff - a group that dresses and acts like it's the Middle Ages!!

[digger]

I think the problem we have is that this is the LIVING CAR FREE forum. Read the sticky regarding what this forum is for. If you have a car, or two cars, or a bunch, whatever, but we don't want to hear about it here. We aren't interested in your explanations of why, either. If you want to drive less, need help doing so, etc, we're here to help. But don't troll this forum with stuff that doesn't relate to car-free living. No, not everyone fits into "our mold" - but why are those people here, and posting about their cars? They can have their own forum on another site, and we won't come troll them.

P.S. I find it very interesting that your wife "has to" have a car for her SCA stuff - a group that dresses and acts like it's the Middle Ages!!


Ah crap here I go again. Somebody stop me! :p

You're absouletly right, my apologies, my intention was not to cause trouble with you guys nor try to convinece you to START using a car. I guess I had posted without thinking it thorough. I wish you all the best your endeavour. I do not look down on you for being car free, nor do I think of you as weird.

Yes, it is a middle ages thing, but she also wears galsses to these events (hard for her to shoot without them). It's about having fun and a scoial gathering and learning a skill, exercise, etc. and yes, their are extremists who won't wear glasses, watches, wedding rings and insure that their garb (their term for clothes) is natural and was available back then - even though it was probably manufactored in China by children (probably alot of the clothes you wear also). But they ALL drive to these events, hypocritical? Technically yes, I guess it is. Look around you lad, all that stuff you use and that computer you are reading this on is manufactored and delievered to you via fossil fuels. Hypicritical no? But you have focused on reducing or eliminating your dependency on the automobile, GREAT! But still you still rely on it.

I guess, we COULD get a horse and buggy for her travels to these events, but that causes other problems and I'd probably have the animal rights group on my back for exploiting a pack horse. Besides, although I don't dislike horses, they are a big animal with a mind of their own, I'm a tad intimidated. :D

Again my apologies for posting here, I was just giving another point of view and answering a post that's all. I don't expect you to agree with my POV or my lifestyle.

Take care.

Digger

[LSPR_MTU]

Sorry, but not, its not about lifestyle. Its about some people enjoying luxuries at the expense of others, particularly the health of their neighbours. I don't normally rant on about these things but this is the Living Car Free forum, and I call multi-car households irresponsible. I wouldn't poison my neighbhour's food for my convenience, so why would I poison his air?

Unfortunately the convenience aspect is usually the deciding factor for most peopple. Social responsibility isn't very popular these days :(


Wow, you're so righteous. :rolleyes:

[patc]

Look around you lad, all that stuff you use and that computer you are reading this on is manufactored and delievered to you via fossil fuels. Hypicritical no? But you have focused on reducing or eliminating your dependency on the automobile, GREAT! But still you still rely on it.

No, we don't. Most car-free people that I know define "car" as a personal motor vehicle. I don't live without oil or without motor vehicles - in fact public transit is my backup travel method. I do live car-free, that is without a personal motor vehicle. Perhaps a subtle difference, but in reality a huge change in resource usage and environmental impact.

This particular accusation seems to come up a lot...

[patc]

Wow, you're so righteous. :rolleyes:

Did you mean righteous or self-righteous? If the latter, its a common failing when talking about issues one feels strongly about. I can usually count on someone to knock me down a few pegs when that happens ;)

As to righteous... well, I can honestly say that I never do anything I strongly feel is wrong, and I try to not do anything in the "wrong" category. When I fail to live up to that, I don't make excuses.

[CagerTools]

I don't feel sorry for people hurting because of gas prices if they could just bike places. Thats sad.

[gwd]

Did you mean righteous or self-righteous? If the latter, its a common failing when talking about issues one feels strongly about. I can usually count on someone to knock me down a few pegs when that happens ;)

As to righteous... well, I can honestly say that I never do anything I strongly feel is wrong, and I try to not do anything in the "wrong" category. When I fail to live up to that, I don't make excuses.

Patc, neither righteous nor self-righteous, you are right. I don't go for these pissing contests with polluters but every one that I've read where you get into it, I agree with you. I couldn't write so strongly because of my latent guilt over my years of unnecessary car usage. Its a weird mental trap people get into. Its not physical or economic, the physics and economics weigh heavily against the polluting car centered world view. Just because we don't respond to the weirdos who write pro-car pro-pollution anti-socialresponsibility messages on a car free forum doesn't mean we agree with them.

[patc]

Patc, neither righteous nor self-righteous, you are right. I don't go for these pissing contests with polluters but every one that I've read where you get into it, I agree with you. I couldn't write so strongly because of my latent guilt over my years of unnecessary car usage. Its a weird mental trap people get into. Its not physical or economic, the physics and economics weigh heavily against the polluting car centered world view. Just because we don't respond to the weirdos who write pro-car pro-pollution anti-socialresponsibility messages on a car free forum doesn't mean we agree with them.

Thank you, I mean that. I get more blunt on this forum due to its nature. Sometimes its hard to be patient, too, as I see the same messages time and time again here and elsewhere (like the accusation of hypocrisy, for example).

[Roody]

It's the oft-used "big bags of dog food" excuse that always gets my blood boiling. I don't know why. Maybe it's the idea that somebody would actually let their dog make decisions about what form of transportation they should use.

[attercoppe]

It's the oft-used "big bags of dog food" excuse that always gets my blood boiling. I don't know why. Maybe it's the idea that somebody would actually let their dog make decisions about what form of transportation they should use.

It's worse than that, they're using a pet as an excuse for what they do.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

It's the oft-used "big bags of dog food" excuse that always gets my blood boiling. I don't know why. Maybe it's the idea that somebody would actually let their dog make decisions about what form of transportation they should use.
Perhaps the problem is not that some people have a need for hauling big bags of dog food; but that you think that they need to make excuses sufficient to cool your easy to boil blood. Why is someone else's solution to dog food hauling your blood boiling problem?

[patc]

It's worse than that, they're using a pet as an excuse for what they do.

Yeah, why not just say, "I don't want to"? At least I would respect the honesty.

I'm happy to say that people are finally getting used to the idea that I'm not helpless with my bike! After a meeting Friday I brought home a box of 5000 rave cards, and will bring it to a planning meeting tomorrow. It's not all that big or heavy - fits nicely in a messenger bag - but until recently I would get all sorts of "You'll carry that on your bike?!?" types. One step step at a time...

[chennai]

$275/month car payment would probably cover the difference in cost of the city house, maybe with some left over for bike gear.


[snip]

Maybe some others will give their ideas on how you could live carfree in the suburban mansion.

Probably not fair to call it a "mansion" -- at least in the U.S. :) I would call it "big for two people."

Having $275 more to pay for a mortgage would be about $70,000 more in purchasing power on a 30-year mortgage. If it were Denver, you wouldn't need to add $70,000 to the purchase price to get a comparably sized place with 5 miles of downtown.