Triathlon - steps to becoming a tri weight weenie

1. Get Zipp carbon wheels(I'm pretty light so I went 303, if you can go deeper do so)
2. Get 250 gram tires
3. Let the bike store talk you into the damn $50 Ti skewers


Its more than likely your bike just dropped about 600-800 grams. I couldn't believe my Caliente. Not to mention the oustanding ride of the wheels, cornered like no other wheels I've ever had. I think my bike will be around 15 pounds next year when I upgrade a few things(Syntace F99 stem, Vision brake levers and an Phillwood BB(or just go to a Dura Ace crankset)). Nothing stupid on my bike but right now its around 16.5-17 pounds just going through steps 1-3.

I didn't try to be a weight weenie it just happened. I rode Spinergy Tillium in front last year that was 45mm deep it definately was not as fast as the 303, no where near as smooth and I don't think as aero. I doubted the hype for a long, long time but I'm fairly convinced now.

Well lets see, definatly go with the DA 10 speed crankset with external BB(better stiffness in the BB if you area heavier rider, or push hard)

Bottle Cages-http://fairwheelbikes.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=16
Brakes-http://fairwheelbikes.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=51&zenid=5a491321d8fe1b466a62ac14ad60bf99
Saddle-http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=101043&cat=270&brand=223


Thats all I can think of right now...but good luck on becoming a weight weenie:p

Hey Batman, the saddle will definately be the last consideration on dropping weight because I'm very content with my current one even if it weighs 270 grams.

And I just can't see putting ridiculous braes on my bike, but if I were I'd go with the more economical Zero G SS.

As far as crank goes I agree that D/A is proably the best in terms of weight/stiffness, however I saw recently that the FSA energy with the FSA mega quad BB(non external bearing but oversized bearings) beat out 30 other cranks in a stiffness test including the DA 10. I couldn't believe it.

Either way my weight weenism is on hold for now.

303's are great wheels and can be a great wheel for road cycling as well, and a great choice for a front wheel in windy conditions.
I went with the Zipp Z999's and some very special tires "Dugast Speed Diamond Silk Tublers". I saved a bit over 1/2 lbs from my previous Zipp 404 Clinchers and improved in several areas;
- Gained a huge leap forward in Aero advantage with a rear disc
- Lost over 1/2 lb from previous wheel set and tires
- The special bearings in the Z-series wheel allow me to use less watts at the same speed
- Moving from clinchers to fastest tires money can buy and very low rolling resistance
- Having a Team issue bike, Helmet and Skin Suit helps a little too, although the skin suit is only practical in TT's and Olympic distance events as I would rather wear a normal jersey with rear pockets to keep gels and such.

My Trek-TT bike is no where near 15 lbs (although my Trek Madone 5.9 is 15.9 and I used several trick items to get it there) but my Kona killer comes in at 17.8 lbs with pedals, water bottle cages, Polar 720i with speed and cadance sensors, and under seat bag with spare tire and 1-CO2. In it's orginal config it was at 19.3, although I made some changes and tweeks. I could get to 17lbs if I was on Z606 however - but 15 lbs - NEVER.

my roo came with a cheap set of FSA wheels and some very heavy vittoria tires, switching to 404's with s3 lites saved a little over 2 lbs, taking a relativly light 19lb bike into just under 17lbs.

MHR.......whats with those aero bars......S-Bends are the way of the future..........

Zipp Z999's, dang, dang dang. arguably the best money can buy. I disagree about the sbends, I tried them and then sure as poop, I was back on VT regular TT bars.

jrennie you'll have to eep us posted on longevity of the S3s, I was more or less pushed from Tufos to Contis for the sake of puncture resistance, they said it wouldn't be a shock if I got a few seasons on the tires.

Zipp Z999's, dang, dang dang. arguably the best money can buy. I disagree about the sbends, I tried them and then sure as poop, I was back on VT regular TT bars.

jrennie you'll have to eep us posted on longevity of the S3s, I was more or less pushed from Tufos to Contis for the sake of puncture resistance, they said it wouldn't be a shock if I got a few seasons on the tires.


arguably is right.....I still say a disk/tri spoke is the best combo...

the sbends...why did you go back? comfort? or better aero position?

MHR.......whats with those aero bars......S-Bends are the way of the future..........

COMFORT - I have been doing this stuff since the mid-1980's and I'm a long course guy with 1/2 IM's being my sprint races. I'm still on the bike for almost 2-1/2 hrs. and in an IM for about 5 hrs and 15 min... Thats to long to have my forearms and wrists wrenched in a unnatural position for a savings of seconds. At almost 48 yrs old I'm still about speed and kicking butt (and I still can), but to do it without pain. Sbend bars are not a natural position for anyone - it's just the latest in wind tunnel findings....and that's fine in the lab but in the real world just not practical.
As far as bars go - the HED carbon set-up I have on my Trek-TT is the fastest available (yes sbends would tweek it a bit more) but not practical on a course that has many turns. Grabing on to the edges of the wing just don't cut it in the real world either. This is why this bike is my IM/TT set-up, although it is my 1/2 IM go to bike too. My Cannondale IM5000 with Zipp Z606's has the Profile Carbon Strike set-up on it and the cow-horn configuration adds a ton more to grab on to when bike handling comes into play.
That bike is my Olympic distance go to bike and for 1/2 IM's too depending on the course.

Results tell the real tale - I raced a tri-spoke on the front in a couple TT's and the Z808 on the frt. was just faster - how much?? Well they say on any given day.. right? and thats the truth, mother nature is the true equalizer. The "Z" series is lighter and has special ceramic bearings that just blow away tri-spoke wheel you can find. The issue is wind gusts from the side can be a safty issue and a handling issue on a very deep dish wheel like an Zipp Z808 in the frt. not to mention just trying keep your bike in a straight line. But the World Record in a TT is on Zipp Z999's and you can see that on Zipp's web site.

point taken....I dont race anything longer then 1/2's, mostly olympic...so sbends are something I am looking at(i want new handlebars..and the Heds come with sbends only now i think).

I dont really know the difference between trispoke and a deep dish wheel. I assume that the bearins can be changed out on the tri spoke to make that even....I dont own one...so I am just assuming...I want to buy a nice set of race wheels this year. So I am still looking around.

Really bearings are such a tiny factor compared to aerodynamics its hard to bring it into play, even Josh from Zipp told me this. If you already have a 575 disc you should be set in the back, you have everything to look at for a front

For handlebars, you could always replace the extensions on whatever bar you get with Oval's extensions(like $40 for aluminum and 80-100 for carbon)

Would you guys recommend purchasing a used wheelset? I've found some listings on ebay for wheelsets and appear to be in good shape and reasonably priced. I'm in the same spot as JRennie...love my frame, but want to upgrade wheels/tires.

Jay, I've gotten some good deals this way on ebay - a Zipp 404 front and Hed Jet 90 rear, both in good condition and about half of what new would have cost. One new option for the rear to consider is that a rear disc CH Aero wheel cover from wheelbuilder.com is about $60 and turns the rear wheel into a disk. The resulting wheel is heavier than a pure disc (e.g., a Renn 575), but the wind tunnel results I've seen for the wheel cover are right up there with the pure discs.

Chris,
I saw you posted that before...and I checked out the site. Very interesting. It's so windy in Nebraska, I wonder how much use I would get out of a rear disc. I'm not questioning tests or the experience of anyone, just have seen posts before advising discs have problems with the wind. I think Hed 3s or Zipps would suit me better, and I don't want 2-3 different wheelsets. I either ride tris or I ride my MTB.

I buy alot of stuff on ebay; however, I'm a bit leery when it comes to things so delicate and expensive. I found a set of Hed 3's w/some extras for a great price; unfortunately, the listing is far from closing. I'm watching it. I've got my eye on a couple of Zipp sets, too.

My wheelset is still pretty new w/low miles. I'm going to upgrade eventually, so I want to be educated. I also am ready to pull the trigger should the right deal come my way. You, Triguy, MHR, Batman, Ironwoman, etc. know alot about bikes and I respect the opinions.
Jay

Hey Jaybird,

It is hard to debate the savings of ebay vs. new wheels. I've never actually bought race wheels off of ebay, though have purchased second hand wheels online(forums, roadbikereview.com) and had great success.

One thing to look into is the fact that Zipp and Hed are selling out there rims to various maufacturers now, who are making wheels at a fraction of the price that these companies are. I now Fetish cycles makes a 50mm deep tubular wheelset, http://www.peloton-bicycle.com/en/main2.htm this is Peloton who has rebadged Zipp 303s and a 50mm deep wheel. Peloton uses American Classic ubs with DT aero spokes, so there is no real problem part of these wheels they run you $700 plus shipping. The problem is will a small company honor it's warranty in two years? it is hard to say.

If you are looking at used Hed 3s, I wouldn't worry those wheels are tough. Used carbon rimmed wheels are a little trickier(some problems with Zipps from 2001-2002 if I recall correctly).

All in all, whenever I buy from someone on ebay, I mostly like to feel like they're involved in the sport, because they usually understand what its like to spend money on gear whereas someone wo tried the sport and then ditched out is just looking to mae a buck or two.

Scratch that, I bought one race wheel on ebay, it was a 10 year old freewheel using disc for $100. Best deal ever.

Triguy,
Thanks for the info. All the wheelsets I'm looking at are from 2004 and newer. I just want to get a good all around wheelset at the best possible price...who doesn't. I was looking to see if some of you guys had purchased from ebay and it's good to hear you guys have had some luck. I've got some cabbage put aside to buy when the time comes.

Chris,
Got the HRM...thanks man.

303's are great wheels and can be a great wheel for road cycling as well, and a great choice for a front wheel in windy conditions.
I went with the Zipp Z999's and some very special tires "Dugast Speed Diamond Silk Tublers". I saved a bit over 1/2 lbs from my previous Zipp 404 Clinchers and improved in several areas;
- Gained a huge leap forward in Aero advantage with a rear disc
- Lost over 1/2 lb from previous wheel set and tires
- The special bearings in the Z-series wheel allow me to use less watts at the same speed
- Moving from clinchers to fastest tires money can buy and very low rolling resistance
- Having a Team issue bike, Helmet and Skin Suit helps a little too, although the skin suit is only practical in TT's and Olympic distance events as I would rather wear a normal jersey with rear pockets to keep gels and such.

My Trek-TT bike is no where near 15 lbs (although my Trek Madone 5.9 is 15.9 and I used several trick items to get it there) but my Kona killer comes in at 17.8 lbs with pedals, water bottle cages, Polar 720i with speed and cadance sensors, and under seat bag with spare tire and 1-CO2. In it's orginal config it was at 19.3, although I made some changes and tweeks. I could get to 17lbs if I was on Z606 however - but 15 lbs - NEVER.

1) Actually the fastest tires money can buy are a good set of clinchers. See Jobst Brandt's data. http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html
2) Taking a few of those spacers off the stem would do to more to make you faster than any of those purchases.

Answer to Merlin

#1) The improvement in rolling resistance of clinchers must be weighed against tubulars improvement in aerodynamics and resistance to flats. Although all conditions being ideal, clinchers would win. But I think tubulars have enough good arguments that it is not time to anadoned hem yet.

#2) First off, I ride with 17-18cm of drop and am only 5'8", so there is a big part of me tat agrees with Merlin. However, he may be more comfortable in a "road setup" and it is his "long distance" setup. Although I've ridden my huge dropped, steep setup, pretty far; we can't discount personal choice in bike setup.

Answer to Merlin

#1) The improvement in rolling resistance of clinchers must be weighed against tubulars improvement in aerodynamics and resistance to flats. Although all conditions being ideal, clinchers would win. But I think tubulars have enough good arguments that it is not time to anadoned hem yet.



how do tubulars have an aerodynamic advantage? A Zipp 404 clincher is going to have the same aerodynamics as a Zipp 404 tubular. I understand that the fit between the tire and the rim effects the aerodynamics of a wheel, but as long as the tire isthe right profile for the rim it will be aero whetherits a clincher or a tubular. To me the big advantage in tubulars particularly cf tubualr wheels is weight.

It has to do with the rim/tire junction, very small difference but its been noted by some.

In my experience tubulars are more flat resistance also.

1) Actually the fastest tires money can buy are a good set of clinchers. See Jobst Brandt's data. http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html
2) Taking a few of those spacers off the stem would do to more to make you faster than any of those purchases.

1. I guess thats why 99% of the TdF riders and Pro Triathletes use Tubulars?? Tubulars are faster for several reasons.
- Wheel weight is lower by design
- Tubulars wheels and tires are much more aero as they blend much with the wheel design (you can see detail on that on Zipps web site). Clincher wheels are not no matter what clincher tire you pair it with.
- The ride quality of tubulars is far superior in that they ride much smoother and mine are rated 7 - 12 bars so I can easily ride at 155 PSI or so. Even though some clincher tires are rated in the same range most all of the clincher wheels are not.
- The Dugast Speed Diamond Silk Tublers cost about $225 each (with the Z999 wheels that's about $4,500) I sure wouldn't waste my money if i didn't know what I was talking about. The tire weight is 100 grams less than the lightest clincher (tire alone) and for the set about 300 grams lighter then the typical clincher and tube set in compairson. Almost all of the Dugast supply goes to Pro teams and they are not easy to get, especially the silk versions.

2. Bike fit is very personal and matched to each persons measurements, body type, flexability and needs NOT to what you see some other guy doing a magazine...that's his fit not yours. My set up still allows me to run a 3:20 marathon after riding 112 miles..at the age of almost 48 it works pretty damn good in my book. "Faster" is much more about the engine then parts, although with a powerful or well tuned engine the right equipment makes a big difference. A pure TT set-up has a very flat back because they don't have to run after, a Tri set-up should not be so drastic (Aero but not flat). My bike fit was NOT done by feel or a photo, but by a certified Serotta fitter who also happens to be a 7-time TdF rider. In a pure TT I will flip my stem over to 0-degrees and flip in back to 7-degrees for a Tri.

2. Bike fit is very personal and matched to each persons measurements, body type, flexability and needs NOT to what you see some other guy doing a magazine...that's his fit not yours. My set up still allows me to run a 3:20 marathon after riding 112 miles..at the age of almost 48 it works pretty damn good in my book. "Faster" is much more about the engine then parts, although with a powerful or well tuned engine the right equipment makes a big difference. A pure TT set-up has a very flat back because they don't have to run after, a Tri set-up should not be so drastic (Aero but not). My bike fit was NOT done by feel or a photo, but by a certified Serotta fitter who also happens to be a 7-time TdF rider. In a pure TT I will flip my stem over to 0-degrees and flip in back to 7-degrees for a Tri.


Pretty close to what I was like 5 second away from writting myself(minus the fit details). When it comes down to it, comfort trumps aero to a point. You can be as aero and fast as you want on the bike. If it makes you come off the bike and cramp up for 15-20km of the run....your screwed...Plus, dropping your handlebars 2-3 spacers will save you what.....10-25 minutes on the bike, at probably the cost of 45-60 minutes on the run.......

With proper hip rotation(thus allowing a large leg to torso angle), dropping your bars on your bike shouldn't cost you anything in the run and has very little to do with flexibility. I did say in my post that it is personal preference, I am planning on moving my bars up when I do IM(next year), but only marginally. I will still be riding between 13-15cm of drop because it is more aerodynamic, and I have very little problem running off the bike. One of my favorite rationales for riding low is Slowman's, "look at the Elites of any Ironman (http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/race-reports/hawaii-ironman-in-pictures-001098.php) ", they all ride low but very few ride ridiculously low(except Bjorn who does have trouble running off the bike), and very few ride with their bars as high as yours(One guy sticks out in my head but I can't think of his name).

Merlin had his point and it is a fair one. You have yours, a 3:20 marathon off the bike. Fitting is personal, I agree, but it never hurts to expirement.

Why expirement with your bike fit when you can spend about $100.00 at your LBS and get it right from someone who knows how to fit a bike??
Some sites to review

http://www.sportvelo.com/services_fitting.htm (See comments on left)
http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/karma.shtml (Various photos showing the difference between a TT position vs a Triathlon position)
http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/karma16.htm


With proper hip rotation(thus allowing a large leg to torso angle), dropping your bars on your bike shouldn't cost you anything in the run and has very little to do with flexibility.
I Disagree - dropping the bars to achieve a more aero position for the sake of "Aero" does affect flexability but we all know everyone has different levels of flexability. I can - with my legs locked at the knees touch my forehead to my knees no problem...standing with my knees locked I can touch my hands flat on the ground... so pretty flexable. But riding a flat TT position for 112 and running a marathon is a whole different ball game. To know how efficent your position really is to study your Power output (watts) over time in various positions and the energy or calories required to fuel that output especially in the heat of places like Kona, Hawaii.
There is a fine line between "Power Output" and "Aero" The best way I know how to do that is a visit to a sports sciences center ie. Boulder Center for Sports Sciences and spend some time with a guy like Andrew Pruitt - I did, but only after I spent years of racing and I was looking to get to that next level. As a result from a proper bike fit my bar pads are about 2-inches below my seat height which allows me to produce high power output matched with my best aero position for me and maintain it for 112 miles. It allows me to average around 22 - 23 mph in 1/2 IM's and IM's and still perform well in the run. If you try to gain on the bike by pushing harder than you are capable or riding more aero than what is matched to a proper bike fit for your body on a given bike - you will give back even more time on the run.
http://www.bch.org/sportsmedicine/science.cfm#Bike%20Fit
Some notes on the importance of Flexibility from GordoWorld
http://www.byrn.org/gtips/BaxterBike.htm

1. I guess thats why 99% of the TdF riders and Pro Triathletes use Tubulars?? Tubulars are faster for several reasons.
- Wheel weight is lower by design
- Tubulars wheels and tires are much more aero as they blend much with the wheel design (you can see detail on that on Zipps web site). Clincher wheels are not no matter what clincher tire you pair it with.
- The ride quality of tubulars is far superior in that they ride much smoother and mine are rated 7 - 12 bars so I can easily ride at 155 PSI or so. Even though some clincher tires are rated in the same range most all of the clincher wheels are not.
- The Dugast Speed Diamond Silk Tublers cost about $225 each (with the Z999 wheels that's about $4,500) I sure wouldn't waste my money if i didn't know what I was talking about. The tire weight is 100 grams less than the lightest clincher (tire alone) and for the set about 300 grams lighter then the typical clincher and tube set in compairson. Almost all of the Dugast supply goes to Pro teams and they are not easy to get, especially the silk versions.


Rolling resistence is a measurable quantity. So rather than Dugast dogma, let's see some facts. I can't find any study that shows that Dugast Tubulars have the remarkable rolling resistence that is claimed. I am aware of several sources showing high end clinchers do have lower resistance. see http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html

Also as to Pro Tour use of clinchers, its not 99% anymore. In fact Gerolsteiner is using clinchers specifically for rolling resistance. From Velonews:

"As for clinchers, Teutenberg showed me a very lightweight and supple, 120tpi vulcanized clincher tire called the Schwalbe Evolution that he says Gerolsteiner uses frequently. He showed me a slick, which he says gets double the wear of a treaded tire. He says that the Evolution weighs only 210 grams with the tube! It was light - that much I could tell holding it in my hand - but I don't walk around with a digital scale, so I can't verify the weight. Teutenberg says the team has tested the tire against top-quality tubulars, using an SRM power meter, and its lower rolling resistance saves the rider 10 watts. "Lance Armstrong is not that much better than everyone else," he says. "If you can save small amounts of energy like this over six hours every day over three weeks, that adds up." "

Also from Velonews http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8434.0.html (AG2R riding Clincher CF wheels)

As for why Professional cyclists ride clinchers, One, Bike racing is very tradition driven, and bike racers tend to stick to trusted beliefs, Two, you can ride a tubular flat, which is important in racing until you get support, Three, they are lighter, particularly CF tubular wheels. I never said there aren't certain adavantages to Tubulars. What I said was Tubulars do not have lower rolling resistence than the best clinchers.

And as for wasting money, do you have any idea how much you're paying per watt for the ceramic bearings in your Z series Zipp's?

If you believe that to be true then race on Clinchers -



as for wasting money, do you have any idea how much you're paying per watt for the ceramic bearings in your Z series Zipp's? For me results matter and at my age I need every advanatage I can get. Every event I enter I am gunning for a top-10 age group slot and in an IM qualifier.. a Kona slot. I have made it there 3-times so I must be doing something right. Like in the commerical.... 1-Tri-bike $12,000, Round trip airfare to Kona, Hawaii $675, Hotel $200/night, Food $50.00/day, Race entry fee $400.00, Family sacrifices too many to count - Running up Alii Drive and crossing the finishline at the Ironman Triathlon World Championships - PRICELESS.

Sorry to break up the measuring match, but what do you actually classify as a tri-weight weenie?

My QR Kilo with 404 tubulars tips the scales at a weight just a little over 17lbs, does that count, or does the fact that I want to get it to 16lbs make me a weenie :D

- The Dugast Speed Diamond Silk Tublers cost about $225 each (with the Z999 wheels that's about $4,500) I sure wouldn't waste my money if i didn't know what I was talking about.


Well maybe you don't know quite as much as you think.

See http://www.biketechreview.com/tires/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev7.pdf

Where the Dugas tubular came in the bottom third of the tires tested for rolling resistence.

Go Aero-weenie.

My Cervelo Dual with full race gear weighs in at 17.78 lbs but with my training wheels/tires/tubes it comes in at 15.75 lbs. When you change from American Classic Sprint 350's to a RENN disc and HED Jet 60 you gain a lot of weight but you also gain a lot of speed.

EDIT: I am really liking the new Conti GP4000S tires and the new latex tubes. Very nice set up.